Many if not most, do. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueking
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Many if not most, do. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueking
No, he didn't, he says he's using de-ionized water. They're NOT the same thing; distilled is more suitable than de-ionized because it's cleaner. Looking at the photos I'd say it's the stuff in the water reacting to the copper and separating/building up. Flush the system with hot distilled water, then refill with distilled + silver/PT Nuke -PHN.Quote:
Originally Posted by damha
UPDATE
These fittings was places on the Magicool Single Radiator and, for your information, its the one on the right, connected between the CPU waterblock and VGA waterblock
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...3_IMG_1959.JPG
Here you are those fittings coming from Magicool Radiator. As you can see they are maroon. There are some small areas that's reddish/pinky.
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...6_IMG_3050.jpg
Those are from southbridge block, nickel plating is perfect. (maybe the camera falsed how should look)
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...9_IMG_3051.jpg
Exactly, I said de-ionized water because I know the difference between de-ionized and distilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain H.N.
Distilled water it's better than de-ionized...as you said :)
I think there is something reacting with copper for sure, and its seems to be the material on these two fittings.
Or maybe the radiator?
The fittings are all from same brand, Aquatuning, and they write they are all brass, nickel plated fittings.
What should I check in the radiator to see if is there something wrong?
I've been self studying chemicals and elements for a few years now just by researching mostly on Wikipedia and some other sites.
And I have to say, that is not Copper Oxide. Copper(II) Oxide is black when it occurs naturally through chemical reactions and the red Copper(I) Oxide is really only man made, as it will usually degrade back to Copper(II) Oxide in moist air. But it is still possible to produce the red/pinkish Copper(I) Oxide in some cases. And those pictures TJ Tom showed are not Copper Oxide, either. It's impossible for Copper Oxide to appear blue.
It's called Copper Hydroxide. It's a pale blue gelatinous solid that has a molecular formula of Cu(OH)2 (Copper + Hydroxide, which is a diatomic ion)).
Here, read some of these quotes from Wikipedia.
That might help you understand a bit more.Quote:
Copper(II) hydroxide reacts with a solution of ammonia to form a deep blue solution consisting of the [Cu(NH3)4]2+ complex ion, but the hydroxide is reformed when the solution is diluted with water. Copper(II) hydroxide in ammonia solution, known as Schweizer's reagent, possesses the interesting ability to dissolve cellulose. This property led to it being used in the production of rayon, a cellulose fiber.
Since copper(II) hydroxide is mildly amphoteric, it dissolves slightly in concentrated alkali, forming [Cu(OH)4]2-.[9]
But I really have no idea how to prevent it. I've never heard of this happening before.
I could take a guess, and that is, the liquid you are using somehow is forming a reaction with the metals, specifically copper.
Edit: This guy on here
http://www.techsupportforum.com/hard...ms-sitrep.html
Apparently had the same problem, and he used "anti-corrosion liquid & de-ionised water".
Edit2: I think your problem is caused by Galvanic corrosion.
Hello Dark-Energy, thanks for your post, its very very useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-Energy
EDIT:
You said that copper hydroxide its gelatinous and blue.
So its not Copper Hydroxide, because its not gelatinous and its greenish, and its thin, a micron layer.
What do you think about the pictures of maroon fittings @ post #28?
They are brass fittings.
Other fittings are still perfect, nickel plate has not been attacked.
Can rests of an alkali liquid cause this oxidation?
The reserator XT has the famous material coupling that cause galvanic corrosion for excellence: Aluminum + Copper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-Energy
You can use distilled water and inibitor, have the aluminum anodized, but soon or later the corrosion will happen.
I ABSOLUTELY HAVE NOT MIXED ALU WITH COPPER.
Im on watercooling since 2003, im not a noob at watercooling.
I always used copper + brass / nickel plated brass + plexy in my systems.
No steel, iron, aluminum.
So you said its galvanic corrosion. OK.
Caused by what?
Brass and copper doesnt react.
Plexy its not a metal...
Nickel doesnt react too with copper, right?
anything that has oxidation on it, be it copper or aluminum, soak your blocks/fittings, etc in 5% distilled white vinegar (sold at any grocery store) for about 6-12 hours, then take a toothbrush (I prefer a soft metal bristle brush) and scrub them down while submerged in vinegar. This should remove most if not all of surface oxidation that often happens with copper and aluminum. After the vinegar, give all the parts a bath in 70-90% isopropyl rubbing alcohol, and you'll be good.
Hello Sneaky :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky
I have distilled white vinegar, i bought it some days ago in prevision to clean my watercooling rig, next week.
Im starting to think that the oxidation its caused by the brass of some fittings, that had a poor nickel plating layer.
Brass its a alloy of copper + zinc. If the layer of nickel came off, the copper its exposed to oxidation-corrosion.
From here -> http://www.ehow.com/about_4614401_brass-oxidation.html
"Oxidation of brass occurs when the copper molecules come into contact with the oxygen. The chemical reaction that occurs results in a dull tarnish that range from greenish-yellow to coppery red, depending on the proportion of copper to zinc in the brass."
Infact, if I look inside the brown fitting, I can say the chromed fittings become coppery red, instead of the classic chromed color or yellow shine brass.
In my years of watercooling, I've used a good number of brass fittings, as well as nickel plated brass fittings, and I've never had any severe oxidation/corrosion problems when mixed with a copper loop.
I mean, look at radiators - most radiator cores are made of brass with copper fins attached to them, and people rarely have problems with oxidation/corrosion inside the radiator.
After cleaning off the oxidation that you have experienced, what you really need to concentrate on is using the correct liquid for your WC system - a lot of the pre-mixed watercooling-specific liquids are made to look pretty, and they advertise this and that about preventing growth and corrosion, but more often than not, this tends to be a load of crap from the manufacturer.
I've been watercooling since 2003, and have never used anything outside of 90% distilled water, 10% antifreeze, and a few drops of UV dye. This will prevent any growth within the system, and antifreeze is a great anti-corrosive agent that will protect any system with mixed metals (even if its only copper/brass in the same loop). Antifreeze is used in cars with steel and aluminum engine blocks and copper radiators, and you'll rarely see oxidation or corrosion in an automobile cooling system, and the same concept goes for PC watercooling... but instead of 50/50 water/antifreeze mix in cars, only a 90/10 or even 95/5 water/antifreeze mixture is required for PC water cooling systems
How does UV dye and antifreeze act as an anti-microbial? Neither one can... and tbh you don't need antifreeze or anything like it in a loop unless you're mixing alu and cu.
There's nothing with the radiator that would have anything to do with this problem, but you should flush it with some vinegar as suggested. What I don't get is why you know distilled is better yet you don't use it...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMash
I will not use any antifreeze liquid of car radiators, it is slimey, and I've seen many pumps damaged by this liquid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain H.N.
Btw I always used supermarket deionized water 'cos in the past I never had problem of this kind... I can say the first three years.
And I changed my watercooling rig completely in these years, of course.
The problems started when I decided to polish some waterblocks with Sidol, an amonia based product.
It seems even if I wash them very well, some ingredients in Sidol doesnt go away.
This time I bought BIDISTILLED water from Ybris Cooling store.
Its a bit pricey (4.50€ / liter), but I think it will works very well.
I tried to clean a waterblock that was oxided (brown-black) with ketchup.
The dark goes away, but now copper its opaque and its pinky-reddish, and I think its not the right look for the copper.
It should be soft pink, and it should shine.
The same thing would happen If i was using vinegar + salt, I think.
I dont want to use again that Sidol "amonia based" product to make it shine.
What can I use?
At this point you shouldn't try anything else. Oxidation strips copper from the base (it has to come from somewhere for the reaction to occur), and you can't get that shine back. Any more attempts will only be detrimental; if you really want the shine back, replace the whole block.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMash
In the future, use 1:2 diluted hydrochloric acid to clean oxide off. It will NOT eat at copper metal, but it will eat away that brown/black crap left behind.
Even if your copper has that brown/reddish tint to it, it WILL NOT impact performance, it is simply aesthetic. The only real way to remove that tint would be to use a metal polish meant for copper, but I wouldn't suggest that, as most metal polishes leave a nasty film on the surface
Yeah I know :( :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky
So i will leave them like this. Pity, shining copper has another look! :rolleyes:
I will clean everything with vinegar as soon as I will get the new reservoir and the pump top from Alphacool.
Oh, and I discovered an interesting thing with the ph test stuff :asd:
This is my previous "deionized" water. I found it hidden somewhere for some reason. Maybe some time ago i started to think this water was :banana::banana::banana::banana:.
As you can read, even if its in italian, they call it "Distilled" and below "DEIONIZED".
Now I can understand why my watercooling system its full of gunk and copper oxide everywhere.
This :banana::banana::banana::banana:in' "deionized-distilled" water has a pretty acid PH, going out of scale in the PH table.
First time I checked the PH, and it was a bit more greenish, about 6,5 I can say.
After that, I shaked the tank with that water for a while, and the results are the following:
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...6_IMG_3057.jpg
Ewww... yeah, water tends to go stale after a while even in the best of conditions. Every time I re-fill my loop, I do it using a new gallon of Distilled water that I purchased the same day.
I cleaned one of the two "brown" fittings. It isnt brown now, but its dark grey/black, like zinc I think, or maybe the classic Copper Oxide.
You should see a pinky stain, in typical color of copper, I think it will not hurt,will it?
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...5_IMG_3059.jpg
I used some abrasive paper on the dark grey (or black, depends on how you consider it), the result is the nickel plating come again out.
So the brown, and then grey, layer was oxide of something else, its not oxide of the fitting itself I think.
Maybe its copper oxide?
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...0_IMG_3062.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMash
Did he now. Check above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain H.N.
Either the forum is playing games or your memory is not very good :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMash
I am glad you figured it out either way, have a nice day :)
IMHO, far too many caustic substances have been used in your cleaning process with some possibly sub standard rinsing on the rad. Rads are the hardest part to be 100% certain about your rinse job, just too damn hard to get all the stuff out due to the way they're constructed. Try cleaning the parts without any vinegar or any other acids and see if the problem returns, my guess is it won't.
It was my mistake, I thought deionized and I wrote distilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by damha
Sorry guys!
Hi Waterlogged, thanks for your reply and interest for the problem. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I agree with you, radiators are hard to clean and rinse at 100%, 'cos of the internal structure.
Actually its hard for me to find an alternative to acids, vinegar and so on.
If im not wrong, copper its cleanable only with acids or alkaline liquids.
What should I try?
I think hot deionized-distilled will be ok, but no so efficient in removing oxide.
Using other kind of chemicals products may cause other collateral effects, I dont know.
May I have to dilute vinegar, acids in more water, so they will not be too aggressive on copper.
Btw, I think the main problem was cause by some rests of Sidol, alkali metal polish.
The water used for about 4-5 months initially, when I rebuilt my watercooling rig on October 2009, its a bit too acid, and I guess it's not so deionized as the label "say".
This time I will not use the Sidol, more diluted vinegar or hydrocloridric acid.
And guess what, I bought 1 liter of BIDISTILLED WATER.
Never tought I would need it ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMash
Going back to the test you did on your deionized water. Its going to be a bit more acidic due to carbonic acid. Deionized water pulls ions out of the CO2 in the air and the result is H2CO3 (a mild acid)
It will react to pure metals like copper and even the brass depending on the levels of copper in it.
If you insist on using deionized water I suggest you refresh your loop often with fresh water from a new bottle.
I don't think I've seen anyone talk about the presence of carbonic acid in deionized water that's exposed to air long enough. Keep in mind its a weak acid but an acid none the less.
Could be that there are some metals inside radiator, when u think at it if fitting that are in direct contact to another metal will run higher risk of galvanic corrosion when mix metals. Maybe check what metals are on radiator ?
The reason for washing with vinegar was back in the pre RoHS days, the flux that they would use to help solder the rads would stay inside the rad and contaminate the water. Since all new rads must now be RoHS compliant, they use a water based flux that washes out with simple hot water. Continually using some form of acid to clean your rad is just further etching it and making it thinner and thinner. It was clean with the first washing, stop using caustics to clean it and your problem will go away. This is similar to an old, somewhat common problem we saw from pre RoHS Thermochill PA users that would always dump out rinse water with a blue tinge to it because they allowed the vinegar to sit in the rad for too long, this would cause them to think the rad still wasn't clean so they dumped in more vinegar and got into a repetitive cleaning loop that never allowed them to get clean water to come out of the rad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMash
This isn't galvanic corrosion, it's acid erosion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueking