Translation:Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
If you have a embarrasingly horrid pump, and enjoy using undiluted antifreeze as a coolant, buy innovatek.
Printable View
Translation:Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
If you have a embarrasingly horrid pump, and enjoy using undiluted antifreeze as a coolant, buy innovatek.
I have a 775 G-flow that I'm using in a shiats & giggles loop* and so far, I not impressed, but I'm fairly certain that's due to the "rad" I'm using. The G-flow has a nickel plated top and bottom while the center section that houses the mounting pins is made of anodized aluminum. The only reason I'm even using this block is it was the only one that would work with minimal fuss in an aluminum loop (starting to think I should have chosen a Koolance:rolleyes:). I am using Innovtek's protect fluid and I'm still nervous as all hell because this was posted after I had bought the block and was committed to it. I'm using a CSP-Mag and hoping the pressure won't be high enough to cause any problems with the plating.
*due to some hardware problems/dislikes, MoBo, HDD and GPU are different from that post.
Dude I really am thankful . . .no mocking on my part! Anytime we can get someone who actually sells the stuff we use here I am eternally thankful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus@ncix
For the record, I am thankful for your presence here, Linus. Greatly appreciate your wisdom and knowledge. You have my business as well.
innovatek's stuff does look mighty pretty, and i'm sure they sell good. you'd be surprised at how many uninformed people only look at price. if its more expensive it must be better right.
i'm no thermal engineer but low flow almost makes sense. the fluid stays in the radiator longer, therefore has more time to dump its heat. perfectly logical. but what i think these people fail to realize is. the higher flow make 2 or tree trips through the rad dumping the same or more heat.
dont even get me started on pushpins, i'm too tired. lolz:rofl: :rofl:
DB have u linked this thread to him? :D
edit: oops, I see u have! :rofl:
He responded and he sounds pretty intelligent and reasoned:
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) I listed ONE specific reason for Danger Den over Innovatek (copper vs aluminum). One. I have not tested temps and flow with the Innovatek products but I am willing to take your word about the performance. This does not negate my point which you have not addressed (and I really hope you show my assumptions are wrong because I am ALL for having more options for us to choose from . . .look at what I use . . .Danger Den, Blast Flow, MIPs, EK . . .I prefer Danger Den first but will use other products as well if they are good).
Have you ever seen the inside and outside view of Innovatek blocks? It is not full aluminum. Are they idiots to make full aluminum when every little kid knows copper is a better conductor of heat than aluminum?
The base-plate (the part that lies on the hot object) is entirely made up of 100% pure copper to ensure maximum conduction. Additionally, it is electroplated with a few more micrometers to ensure you get molecular-level smooth surface even without lapping.
Only the body is made up of aluminum. This is done because aluminum has more tensile strength than copper and is resistant to all oxidation reactions and action of chemicals by developing a passive layer that protects metal underneath.
100% pure copper oxidizes even upon touch and the oxidized layer falls off exposing fresh layer for further oxidation. So, basically all-copper blocks have no advantage because you only need copper for base-plate because that's only where you need heat transfer; not all over the body.
One more thing; to reduce cost, copper blocks are made very thin and light. So even little corrosion renders it paper thin and you're more likely to get leaks with copper blocks. But Innovatek blocks are solid aluminum blocks and are quite heavy and you can even kick it around provided you don't damage the smoothness of the base-plate.
You might think that mixing of metals will lead to galvanic corrosion, but this is an obsolete idea and modern science has laid certain criteria for galvanic corrosion such as the presence of a conductive coolant and small electric field potentials. Innovatek has used this combination from the day they began manufacturing water-blocks (lot more than 6 years) and have had no galvanic corrosion because of mixing metals.
Additionally, the coolant InnovaProtect has the ability to resist galvanic corrosion to a great extent and is also quite non-conductive and so won't allow electric fields to form and suppesses any chance, however remote, for galvanic corrosion to occur. So you can have water-blocks and rads of all different metals without any worry about corrosion (I've had aluminum, nickel, copper and stainless steel in my loop for over 3 years now and not even a sign of corrosion even when I open the blocks to check).
Coming to fabrication of the block itself, Danger Den and all other water-blocks are limited by the die-to base-plate contact of micro-columns. I hope you know what it is. The micro-columns are actually not a part of the integral water-block itself. The micro-columns are moulded on a copper sheet and then this is soldered to the base-plate of the water-blocks.
If you look from a molecular level, there is insufficient contact between the micro-columns and the base-plate. So vibrations of atoms in base-plate does not make a decent proportion of atoms in the micro-columns to vibrate because there is a huge gap between the two. This drastically decreases heat conduction to the micro-columns. What is the use of increasing surface area by having micro-columns if heat is not properly conducted to the micro-columns in the first place? This is the first and biggest limitation of Danger Den and all other water-blocks.
As it so happens, I asked Dan Stephens about this the moment I saw the zoomed picture of the water-blocks and Dan was honest enough to reply to me saying that whatever I said was absolutely true and this was the main drawback with all their water-blocks (and all others in the market that go on this same principle and it includes all companies except Innovatek).
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) Show me their non-aluminum blocks and I will try one out.
I'll talk a bit more about the construction of Innovatek water-blocks to wipe off the last traces of your wrong impression.
First, aluminum is more malleable than copper; so you can make nice sheets and plates with it better than what you can do with copper. But copper is more ductile than aluminum and so if you're making wires and tubes, copper is better. Just remember this throughout.
Innovatek water-blocks don't have any useless micro-columns. They use a specific plate-arranged channelized flow pattern that swirls water and so malleable aluminum is required for plate arrangement (base-plate is copper for best conduction). So they don't need ductile copper; they only need malleable, tensile, light-weight and corrosion-resistant aluminum.
The copper base plate is directly exposed to the coolant. So base-plate is directly cooled by the coolant without die-to-base solder limitations.
Innovatek water-blocks are designed to make water swirl inside the water-blocks for sometime before going out. So, water swirls over the base-plate and removes maximum heat. Note that Innovatek uses low-flow. So, water has time to attain thermal equilibrium with the hot component.
Suppose water is at 25 degrees celsius and CPU is at 65 degrees celsius. Suppose that only if water stays on the base-plate for 5 seconds, complete transfer of heat occurs. So Innovatek water-blocks use low-flow and let water stay inside for 5 seconds and allow it to attain thermal equilibrium and CPU comes down to 30 degrees celsius.
Actually, CPU will stay very close to 25 degrees becasue volume of water is very large when compared to the CPU. So change in temperature of water is very less and final water temperature is equal to CPU temperature. Because thermal equilibrium has been attained we use this formula to calculate final temperature of water (that is equal to final temperature of CPU):
Q (heat of CPU i.e., 136W) = m (mass of water ~1kg) X s (specific heat of water) X [T2 - T1] (T1 is 25 degrees celsius)
Note that this formula is not applied to other companies because they don't allow enough time to attain thermal equilibrium by using high-flow. Water will flow out of the water-block quickly and so it'll not have enough time to absorb enough heat. So heat builds up. Remember that rolling stones gather no moss; fast flowing water absorbs no heat.
What about other companies? They use high-flow and let water stay only for 2 sec and so water will be at 25 degrees and CPU will be at 55 degrees. For next cycle, CPU will be 75 degrees instead of 65 because there is arrears of 10 degrees with first cycle itself. So, tempertaure will increase to a particular limit before it become so high that only 2 seconds are enough to ensure that newly produced heat gets completely eliminated (cooling curve is "J" shaped and I'll detail that later if you don't know what I mean).
So at this point the CPU will be at 70 degrees or so before it stops becoming hotter. This will be the equilibrium temperature of the CPU. Note that Innovatek has lower equilibrium temperature because of complete heat dissipation without any arrears or building up of heat. That is why Innovatek blocks are superior.
You should know that high-flow is suitable only for cooling something that is already hot, but will not get any hotter. So if your CPU is at 65 degrees initially but it is switched off so that it doesn't get hotter, then high-flow can cool it. But our components continuously get hot. So high-flow is unsuitable becasue it does not dissipate heat completely and allows heat to build up in those objects that constantly get hot.
So after knowing all this, why don't other companies make low-flow blocks like Innovatek? This is because Innovatek water-block designs are patented and that is why no other company can use low-flow swirling designs and create water-blocks that can have as good performance as Innovatek.
Now, after reading through the above novel, do you still have that wrong idea about aluminum? Just chuck your superstition out of the window :yawn: .
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) By the way, how are the GX2 blocks coming that Innovatek is making for EVGA?
Innovatek has already made the GX2 blocks and I'm using them for my 2 EVGA 9800GX2 SSCs in SLI. While air cooling brings temps to 90 degrees celsius at full load for anytime more than 2 hours of good games like Crysis, etc.. Innovatek water-blocks live up to their expectations here also. I've heard some people giving high-flow to Innovatek water-blocks and get higher temps than they should, but they give reviews saying these blocks are bad without correcting their mistake.
My friend with 4 X 120mm rads from Hardware Labs never ever got any temp above 45 degrees celsius as recorded by the nTune log for 3 hrs of Crysis with a mixture of Very High and High at 1680 X 1050. Please note that he has 10 components cooled by four 1/4" loops splitted form one 1/2" inlet, and he's using only a single Danger Den D5 12V pump and only 1 radiator but still gets these temps.
My story is different because I refrigerate InnovaProtect using my patent pending invention (I'm a chemical engineer and I've graduated in thermodynamics and my main profession is refrigeration) and so I get -5 or -10 degrees celsius idle and 15-25 degrees celsius on full load even when torture testing of 80 hours. You've read it correctly and I've done no typing mistakes either.
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) As far as the best CPU block . . .most people lean toward teh D-tek Fusion . . .I wonder if they have used the Innovatek G-Flow in tests. If not, I think we need to get in in the testing rounds! Martin on XS is in the middle of CPU block tests and surely would love to test this out.
Either they've not used Innovatek at all, or they've used it like how people use ordinary high-flow water-blocks. Please note that Innovatek water-blocks are independent of orientation, loop order, flow-rates and flow-restrictions. So they shouldn't be used like all other products.
Usually people do mistakes by placing in-line multi-water-block flow system for Innovatek products and they don't get good temperatures. For Innovatek, you should minimise flow as much as you can and use splitters to split the flow and get low-flow but decrease ID to maintain high-pressure.
You should also dedicate each split hose to not more than 2 components if you want decent temperature. So, if you follow this, you can actually cool upto 8 components using a single pump and radiator and get low temperature on all of them.
If you use Danger Den or others, you can never cool 8 components with 1 pump. Also, in these, 1st component will have low temps but second will have higher temps and so on. But in Innovatek, if you follow their simple instructions (that may appear wrong to those who're accustomed to high-flow) you'll get equally low temps on all components.
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) I am going to post this thread over at XS as they have people who do much more testing and will be interested to hear about Innovatek and their quality.
Yes. Please do so. With my 6 years of water-cooling experience in which I've used Innovatek for 4 years, I can come very handy and let my knowledge be of some good use to others.
QUOTE(G.Abhinav @ Apr 30 2008, 12:20 PM)
Have you ever seen ........ knowledge be of some good use to others.
Please note everyone, that I'm not any employee or sales representative of Innovatek. My views and opinions are not biased or made partial to promote the sales or marketing of Innovatek products in anyway.
I'm just another guy like you all who's had the oppurtunity to try all the best water-cooling products from over 20 different companies and out of all of them, I've been most impressed with Innovatek which's probably the least discussed water-cooling company in these forums.
Out of painstaking physical installation and temperature recording, I've come to judge Innovatek as the best and so this post is not copied from some review written somewhere. Get that guys?
This post has been edited by G.Abhinav: Today, 01:37 PM
My rant, Then eVGA knows there gonna get an ass whooping on it so they reply with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Quote:
Originally Posted by jAkUp
Say bye bye innovotek to evga? That itself should tell you a lot.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=180749&page=5 Post # 109
is he claiming that blocks arent milled?Quote:
Coming to fabrication of the block itself, Danger Den and all other water-blocks are limited by the die-to base-plate contact of micro-columns. I hope you know what it is. The micro-columns are actually not a part of the integral water-block itself. The micro-columns are moulded on a copper sheet and then this is soldered to the base-plate of the water-blocks.
i dont quite understand this guy, long read..
is this guy on drugs? how can his "patent pending" fluid be at -15 degrees celcius. That breaks the laws of thermodynamics. Unless he just put antifreeze and some icecubes in his res, that's impossible. Also, He's also forgetting that it's a closed loop system. If its closed loop, than higher flow is better. Lastly, that statement saying that he can get low temps from parallel, is pure BS
i'm not entirely sure this guy lives in our world... and from the sounds of all the cool and rediculous things you can do i want to go there!!!
I think the "copper blocks are inneficient because the pins are soldered onto the bar of copper" statement is retarded. I don't think he has ever heard of the procces of casting or forging.
blah, give up DB.
Theres only so much you can do. I have a simular problem on this forum right now, and all i can do now is just ignore.
They will never change, and nothing will allow them to change. The only thing you can hope for is that they run into an accident where they will eventually say, "OMGWTFBBQ he was right."
All of this because I was trying to help a dude watercool a Skulltrail. Mine is the 4th DD water-cooled Skulltrail I know of which is not bad considering they are not even released yet. I also clearly state other blocks would do well.
DB, we all know you probably have the most experience out of all of us on working with a ST system.
You showed off your pictures, you told them what you picked up from here, ontop of your own experience.
They still wont listen, its the classic you can lead a horse to water, however not force the horse to drink.
If your concerned about the OP, at this point what i do is PM him personally, and tell him all the wrong things people are recomending, and then link him to a few forums where you can get second and third advice.
Bring him here, or Anandtech, or the DD forums which your most comfortable with.
At this point its only a losing battle to go on, and you'll end up destroying that thread like i did to another guy yesterday. [trust me its not the best feeling knowing that you killed someone's thread]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
The OP said he is calling DD . . .so that will turn out well.
Tell me he's a troll ?!
OMG, then a blackhole appears, no ?Quote:
it does not dissipate heat completely
What a joke. Why no low-flow ? Because they are smarter and understand physics laws ?Quote:
So after knowing all this, why don't other companies make low-flow blocks like Innovatek? This is because Innovatek water-block designs are patented and that is why no other company can use low-flow swirling designs and create water-blocks that can have as good performance as Innovatek.
He's joking again, right ? Tell him to learn again thermodynamics laws and convective behaviour to start...Quote:
I'm a chemical engineer and I've graduated in thermodynamics and my main profession is refrigeration
rofl. These WB are unique and revolutionary, they have a flat C/W curve from 0 to 1000 L/h, yeah... Is he serious ? That's why these WB are often in the less efficient WB...Quote:
Please note that Innovatek water-blocks are independent of orientation, loop order, flow-rates and flow-restrictions. So they shouldn't be used like all other products.
We could comment each sentence, but it's too long and not interesting...
Please make him stop, it's too funny reading his thoughts, he's probably on drugs :yepp: . Very honestly, he doesn't understand what he's dealing with and talking about.
I'm sure the folks at Danger Den will help him out. If he wants to pick up a Vadim Skulltrail SB block, you know where they can be found in N. America ;)
I read through about 1/4 of that guy's post copy+pasted into this thread.
It's a fine line between knowing enough to think you're an expert and knowing enough to be considered an expert. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. He's taking principles that are perfectly true, such as the fact that Aluminum oxidizes instantly when it comes in contact with air, forming a protective layer against further oxidation, but that doesn't mean that it's protected from galvanic corrosion in a water cooling loop.
He's write about malleable vs. ductile, but again the principles have been applied incorrectly, since we don't make water blocks with a hammer and anvil anyway.
Anyways DarthBeavis, if you have any questions about the specifics, I'd be happy to help you out via PM or email. I'd be happy to help you.
That remembers me a G-flow alu top completely destroyed by corrosion from a guy here (Fluidxp used, supposed to be a good corrosion inhibitor) :
http://www.enregistrersous.com/image...0501003646.jpg
Clic me !
at first i seriously had to laugh so bad at his stupid concepts...now its actually annoying me...give him some links to martins thermal and flow testing..that should shut him right up
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
im sorry how is this suposed to fight against the EK Supreme, D-tek Fusion?
I think an ApogeeGTX unbowed with copper top would spank this block.
To be honest, my TEC blocks done by martin had more Time and Percision then that.
http://www.highspeedpc.com/Merchant2...ory_Code=Gflow
125 dollars NICE! You can pick up 2 EK Supreme's almost for that price.
Then take a breath and analyze the flow pattern to see where water will go preferentially (almost directly from one barb to another using the straight channels on the top, not the bottom ones) :
http://www.petrastech.com/blogimg/maze-g-flow.jpg
Draw your own conclusions ;)
So lemme guess this.
The water flows from barbs to chanels. Those chanles align up? they stacked next to each other or cris cross? wouldnt that kill your flow?
We can ignore the top piece as it wont aid in thermal transfer.
But the bottom piece looks like a thick slited base. Also the layout would lead me to assume its not bowed? if it was bowed you'd get cracks in between the two plates when the bases aligned.
I dont get this block. :shrug:
Expecially the 125 dollar price tag with it. Id rather pick up an AquaComputers DI Cuplex over it at that price.
This is making me borderline explosive; I think I'm about to have an outburst.
[must resist rant]
[must resist naughty names]
NaeKuh > Channels are criss-crossed.