Well there you go then, 1:1 RULES!! :DQuote:
Originally posted by SpicyHuevos
macci and opp you silly bastads
im talking 1:1 vs 5:4
280fsb 235mhz ram
270fsb 270 ram
Can't wait to try some of the new Kingston 4000, Monday:)
OPP
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Well there you go then, 1:1 RULES!! :DQuote:
Originally posted by SpicyHuevos
macci and opp you silly bastads
im talking 1:1 vs 5:4
280fsb 235mhz ram
270fsb 270 ram
Can't wait to try some of the new Kingston 4000, Monday:)
OPP
Here's what I'm getting at...Quote:
http://www.monsterboxpc.com/roundup2/latency.gif
I've always dug comache and QIII 1.17 Fastest, because they're still to this day really good indicators of proc and memory changes. And I always mix in 3DMark2K1 default, cuz it's so recognizable and does actually change a good deal with CPU and memory (where 3DMark2K3 is like 90% video card).
Anyway, the jist is, the hit from 2/2/2/6 to 2.5/3/3/7 is about 3% (in real benchmarks), and then the hit from 2.5/3/3/7 is about another 3%.
Now, 3% isn't a big deal in real-world usage...anything under 5% is generally imperceptible in usage. But it is a big deal in benching and overclocking.
For example, back in the roundup I did in May, I found the hit going from 1:1 to 5:4 to be 2%, and the hit from 1:1 to 3:2 to be about 5%, all other settings being equal.
Using that as a general guide, this would tell you that one could overcome those ratio hits simply with better timings.
Well, let's see:
200.5 FSB/200.5 Mem (DDR401) 2.5/7/3/3
Sandra- 4681/4683
QIII- 363.3
Comanche- 49.35
3DMark- 16031
200.5 FSB/160.4 Mem (DDR320.8) 2/6/2/2
Sandra- 4392/4398
QIII- 363.9
Comanche- 49.43
3DMark- 16123
Works out pretty well...not exact (the settings aren't the same...timings are different), but 5:4 2/2/2/6 does beat 1:1 at 2.5/3/3/7 in real benchmarks. Note that it doesn't in Sandra...but I really don't 'play' Sandra ;) I really don't like PCMark memory bench, because it's not a reliable memory bench (varies too much, and is too dependant on FSB). Besides, it's you can't 'play' that either ;)
Point here is...going after 1:1 DDR500 at bad timings is practically futile...you can beat it with better timings at 5:4.
Now, notice that was only 2/2/2/6 against 2.5/3/3/7...it will be much worse against 3/4/4/8 (my Kingston actually won't run at 3/4/4/8 in 1:1). I'd be willing to bet that 2/6/2/2 at 3:2 would equal or beat 3/4/4/8.
In a nutshell, the recent trend of trying to hit really high 1:1 scores (250+), but with bad timings, is a bad bet. 1:1 DDR500 at 3/4/4/8 would get beaten soundly by 5:4 DDR400 at 2/2/2/6. There's a really good chance that even 3:2 DDR333 2/2/2/6 would beat 1:1 DDR500 3/4/4/8 at 1:1.
Come to think of it...all this new PC4000 3/4/4/8 memory is pretty pointless. You could literally beat it with old PC2700 memory capable of 2/2/2/6. Hmm....
Good stuff Zorc:)
I'll do some testing with some new 4000 tomorrow.
The hope is that it will run a more aggressive timings then speced when useing higher voltage.
OPP
OPP my man,
Is that Kingston available for the masses already? I need to order some of the good ram....
I talked to Kingston on Thursday, because the 4 modules of 4000 I ordered that their site said was in stock wasn't. Anyway, I asked the tech if the 4000 was any different than the 3500, and their response was NO. It is the same modules, just tested with relaxed timings. So needless to say, I just ordered 2 more 3500 to go with my existing 2.Quote:
Can't wait to try some of the new Kingston 4000, Monday
Thanks ;)Quote:
Originally posted by OPPAINTER
Good stuff Zorc:)
I'll do some testing with some new 4000 tomorrow.
The hope is that it will run a more aggressive timings then speced when useing higher voltage.
OPP
Yeah, I hope more voltage will score you some better timings...they're needed to even justify 1:1. For reference, in my testing, RAS Precharge and RAS-to-CAS seem to have the biggest impact. Either of those above 3 seems really, really bad.
I don't think so, I heard somthing about haveing 128 sticks ready:D Thats not real massive.Quote:
Originally posted by QuadDamage
OPP my man,
Is that Kingston available for the masses already? I need to order some of the good ram....
OPP
LOL, yeah i thought so:)
Thanks.
ZROC:
YOU can only compensate so far with timings my man.
Im talking you could maybe compensate for 25 mhz with the best over the worst timings.
ANything passsed 25mhz its just all gravy for the 1:1 setting.
Like i said when we see more people being able to acomplish this it will be accepted as the new standard for benching ang gaming on a p4 rig. The 5:4 setting will be used buy the people running microsoft office everyday:)
P.s
you dont need pc4000 to do 270+ almost any pc3500-3700 will do it.
The best memory in the world is no good without finding the sweet spot with timings.
oK,
But where is this a good thing for the "average Overclocker" with a P4 2.4C, 2.6C, 2.8C or even 3.0C?????
THis fancy shmancy PC4xxx out there won't help.
Example:
Prommy
2.8C
PC3700 OCZ Gold
Nice setup...Jonny Overclocker can post at 293fsb and bench at 291fsb. His OCZ pC3700 Gold will not post at 291fsb 1:1 (ddr582)
so Jonny runs 5:4 at 233mHz. DDR 466, how nice :) his OCZ runs it at a slick cas2.5, 7,3,3. So with his 1:1 "wunder ram" he can only run 1:1 at 264fsb...nice but <3700mhz
Running 5:4 he's at 4074mHz.
How odd...Jonny's neighbor Tommy Tweaker has the same rig with Kingston HyperX PC3500. He voltmodded his P4C800 and runs 3.1v through his sticks. He runs 291fsb at 5:4 for a nice round ddr466 at cas2, 5,2,2.
Now...Tommy's bangin' Jonny's GF cuz' Jonny's benchies and 3dmk SUCK.
Moral of story...PC4XXX ram is only worth something with 3.0C that top out <270 and 3.2C's with 16X multi. Upcoming 3.4C too of course.
Silly rabbit...this stick's for kids.
C
I disagree completely. The 5:4 hit has always been tiny...around 2%. The current P4 platform has a glut of memory bandwidth. The relaxed timings hit is simply greater. Look at my numbers again...anybody in here should be able to produce the same results.Quote:
Originally posted by SpicyHuevos
ZROC:
YOU can only compensate so far with timings my man.
Im talking you could maybe compensate for 25 mhz with the best over the worst timings.
ANything passsed 25mhz its just all gravy for the 1:1 setting.
Like i said when we see more people being able to acomplish this it will be accepted as the new standard for benching ang gaming on a p4 rig. The 5:4 setting will be used buy the people running microsoft office everyday:)
P.s
you dont need pc4000 to do 270+ almost any pc3500-3700 will do it.
The best memory in the world is no good without finding the sweet spot with timings.
Again, here:
200.5 FSB/200.5 Mem (DDR401) 2.5/7/3/3
Sandra- 4681/4683
QIII- 363.3
Comanche- 49.35
3DMark- 16031
200.5 FSB/160.4 Mem (DDR320.8) 2/6/2/2
Sandra- 4392/4398
QIII- 363.9
Comanche- 49.43
3DMark- 16123
Again, that's just 2/2/2/6 against 2.5/3/3/7...you can already tell how much worse 3/4/4/8 will be.
Don't take my word for it, Spicy...try it yourself.
-Run you machine up as high as it will possibly go at 1:1 with the loosest timings (3/4/4/8, like you said). Run 3DMark 2K1. If you have them, run Quake III, UT2K3, Jedi Knight, Comanche...any game with a benchmark. If you don't want to, just run 3DMark2K1.
-Now, do nothing but flip it to 5:4, at the best timings you can (which you said is capable of 2/2/2/5). Run 3DMark 2K1 (and any other game benchmarks you want).
Just based on my results (and this has been repeated on many boards), your 5:4 2/2/2/5 should destroy your 1:1 3/4/4/8.
Looking forward to your results!
So whats the deal?
I have a 3.2 p4 and need to buy some new memory. Will I get more performance from some 4000 at relaxed timings or 35-3700 at tighter timings. It sounds like the 35-3700 tight timings are good for the less than 3 ghz chips while the 4000 is better for 3 ghz and above.
Is this correct?
zroc:
I have tried and tried again just like the title to the post with a 3:2 i cant beat 1:1 with my 5:4 with any combo of of mem settings:)
all my scores go down period.
be it sandra,3dmark,pifast <-suffers the most
Besides maybe Macci ,and opp there are not to many people that will be running 270+1:1 anytime soon .
and thats assuming they get a 3.2 processor.
Just like I said in my previous post, the 4000 is the EXACT same modules as the 3500. Why pay the extra $$$$$?
NeYoung,
Considering you will be using watercooling, I think it'll work well.
But you'll probably top out at about 250ish if you're lucky. More likely 245ish. Which brings up another problem...if your max OC is like 250mhz fsb, some PC35/3700 will run that 1:1 too, but at better timings. To hit 255+ on the 3.2 takes phase change.
If I was you I'd probably buy some HyperX3500 or some GEIL platinum pC3700 or something with BH-5 chips (XMS3500C2)
If your rig exceeds the capability of your ram, ebay it and buy the OCZ.
C
DJ,
I'm not saying that this 4xxx stuff is what i'm waiting for, just wanna see what it can do (timings/voltage) For example i had some of this Twinmos pc3700 ram doin 253fsb 1:1 on IS7 at 2.7v, but will not work at all on P4C800, will not do more than 212fsb on MSI, or IC7 even at 3.3v.
I here ya man i got the same issues:)Quote:
Originally posted by QuadDamage
DJ,
I'm not saying that this 4xxx stuff is what i'm waiting for, just wanna see what it can do (timings/voltage) For example i had some of this Twinmos pc3700 ram doin 253fsb 1:1 on IS7 at 2.7v, but will not work at all on P4C800, will not do more than 212fsb on MSI, or IC7 even at 3.3v.
some works great on asus and some on abit
hell my pc3700 wont even boot period in my abit.
But works spectacular in asus.
I havnt tried pc4000 yet either.
supposed someone is sending me some but we will see;)
I'm still willing to bet, when OPP, and Macci and the rest of the OC champs get their hands on the latest PC4000, and more seriosly, OCZ PC4200, they will be setting new speed records, even with the lesser latencies involved.
yeah, but did you notice that none of these :spectacular" pc3700/4000 stuff can do cas2? Most of these sticks are cas2.5/3/3/3/7 spec'ed which means i would still choose my XMS3500 over that ocz stuff.
Twinmos pc3700 has probs with tras at 2 (if i remember correctly) and if set to 2/2/2/5 won't even boot at stock fsb on some mobos. xms/hyper x are still good stuff considering there both amd/intel compatible.
but DJ man, your 271fsb 1:1 is pretty damn impressive, just wondering what's the voltage you are pumpin thru it, 3.6v maybe?:D
Yes, I did notice that, and I would gladly trade my XMS3500 for any of it, I would even pay extra for it. :toast:Quote:
Originally posted by QuadDamage
yeah, but did you notice that none of these :spectacular" pc3700/4000 stuff can do cas2? Most of these sticks are cas2.5/3/3/3/7 spec'ed which means i would still choose my XMS3500 over that ocz stuff.
At some point, (depending on your setup) the extra FSB+CPU makes up for the little perfomance that is lost on better latencies.
Here are my earlier test results...
P4 2.4C@ 12x220 (2640mhz) 2-2-2-5 - 1:1
Sisoft mem - 5264/5298
3dm2k1 - 18373
pcmark2k1 mem - 9800
P4 2.4C@ 12x230 (2760mhz) 2.5-3-3-7 - 1:1
Sisoft mem - 5454/5455
3dm2k1 - 18667
pcmark2k1 mem - 10072
230 at 2.5-3-3-7 beats 220 at 2-2-2-5 (for me) Now, the OCZ pc4200 stuff is rated to run at 2.5-4-4-7 at 270mhz bus... This will allow me to run 1:1 at 270(or higher) :D
isn't that ocz ram cas3 rated? anyway, i don't think it will do 270fsb 1:1 given less that 3.0V. Also tras at 4 is slow as hell and i don't think 270/tras 4 will be faster than 250/tras 2, so IMO it's not worth it. but then it's your money and it's your choice.
Its rated at 2.5-4-4-7, but OCZ has been really generous with their ratings lately.
True 2-2-2 at 250 may be faster... but what Ram is gauranteed to do that ? All of the pc4000 I have seen is either 2.5-4-4-7, or 3-4-4-7
Here are the ddr500 sticks I've heard of:
GEIL PC3700 Platinum (my own, ddr500 cas2 ,3,3,6)
Kingston HyperX PC3500, look at MrZee and others.
tWINMOS bh-5
Adata
possibly XMS3500C2, my XMS3200C2 BH-6 even does ddr480, cas2,3,3,6!
Just slip the voltage up a bit. I run 3.10v
C
Corsair pc3700 @ 2.85 :)Quote:
but DJ man, your 271fsb 1:1 is pretty damn impressive, just wondering what's the voltage you are pumpin thru it, 3.6v maybe?
Still have not even done mem vmod to it:D
Thank you i can run it at 280 not for long though:(
280 at 2.85? looks like i'll be loyal to Corsair for another six months at least:) wondering what it can do at 3.0V+ :)