So.......like............where'd he go???
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So.......like............where'd he go???
He seemed to be posting mostly from work, maybe we'll hear from him tomorrow?
It is nice and shiny, much prettier than my raw wood boxes for my radiator housing.
The other thing to notice is how much flow he is using!
An 1100 GPH pump flowing through a whitewater block? WTF???? He is probably getting tremendous flow pressures and many many cycles per minute. Many more than the normal Joe, that is for sure. Flow is a very significant factor for good cooling.
He is using a pump that has a flow rating three to four times that of the average pumps I see out there, which are usually rated between 200, maybe 300 GPH? You guys going to out a buy a two-hundred dollar pump for your $250.00 radiator to get the same results?
Not me. And he is using argueably the best waterblock out there to post his results with (I have one too, now that is an investment worth making.) Hmmmm....
You don't think that they would deliberately use a massive pump like that on the best block available to skew the results now, would you? I get a very bad feeling when people do that to me...
Otherwise, it could be an indicator that they know little or nothing about the water cooling market IMO, at least in the USA. Regardless of how many years he has been developing product. 1100GPH?!? Really?
For $250.00 one could fairly easily get a 5300 BTU Window air conditioner at Home Depot ($99.00) and convert it into a chiller, and I don't care how well the "F2" dissipates heat, your temps would never reach below ambient with that thing whereas you could dial in a chiller to give you 10 below room temperature to negative10C or better! Or you could just funnel an AC's air past your current radiator and beat that performance he posted, even with your current pump little 'ole 300GPH pump.
So if performance is really a #1 factor….put a swifty pelt cooler on your cpu, or convert an AC. That is if you have already gotten the best chip, the best mobo, the best memory, etc…. Or, get an 1100GPH pump.
He could market it in the US, but for $250.00 it would flop IMO. $99.00 would sell probably.
And a final thought....if you think the performance in overclocking is going to improve SIGNIFICANTLY ($250.00 worth of significance?) by a five to ten degree difference in your water temp., well, that has not been my experience.
I usually welcome any watercooling product to the fray, but don't get ripped off. (An 1100GPH Pump, Really?!? I still can't believe it!)
I could put Porsche engine in a VW Beetle and say "my Beetle is the best there is", but unless you buy an engine half the cost of the car for your beetle too, you would be very disappointed comparing it to mine.
Humm 250+200+60 for the kit is really expensive for plain wc, how much did you said for a prommie?
excuse but these days left me very busy, today I will answer the subjects
Quote:
Originally posted by antipop
Humm 250+200+60 for the kit is really expensive for plain wc, how much did you said for a prommie?
The cost of that model of the pictures as I already explained it is for the finish of the coating in steel polished inox the perfection.
130usd Rad F2 Extreme with coating of steel galvanized with painting epox eletrostatic
80usd Quiet one 1100 gph
70usd waterblock (CASCADE or LRWW)
today the temperature of the room went down 3c and....
http://www.watercooler.com.br/p4/3914.jpg
Thank you for the praisesQuote:
Originally posted by Craig
Hi,
First I'd like to say you have some very fine machining skills. Your finishing work is superb. VERY sharp!
I do have some unanswered questions however.
What size are the fans in use and their specs for CFM, wattage & pressure rate? I'm interested in what sort of air flow is involved in your temps. If only two fans were used how large a shift in temps do you see? Dual shrouds & push/pull fans are nice, but in many cases a bit hard to fit.
How large is the active cooling area (just the finned core)? What size of individual flat tubes are in use?
Total demensions?
Water volume it contains?
How many pass is your rad design? One way single pass, dual, triple ect.?
Last,
What is the head rate of that pump? Pumps wattage draw?
I find your work interesting indeed, but need more data on the set up to better judge it's performance. Also need more info on demensions to judge how it would need to be set up. Thanks much, and again, VERY sharp.
:welcome:
I will answer your questions
I used fans adda of 89cfm in the tests, they are low cost fans but with an acceptable noise, later I place the characteristics of the model for you, I tested with weaker fans of 70cfm 31dba and there was not revenue fall, as well as I tested with fans global win of 130 cfm without any earnings in the two systems, to a very big margin of surpluses of area of the core to request fans of high pressure and cfm, as well as the type of core wicht 12 fins for inch has density it would intermediate and the turbulence generated a lot by the tubes flats opposed help in the thermal change.
Today I am using fans of 120x38mm 105 cfm adda
They are 54 tubes flats in 3 arrays opposed , i said previously, he works with only passage
The used bomb is of 1100 gph, it consumes 80w and it reviews little of that consumption a lot in form of heat for the liquid, due to your construction type.
The flow of the system is of 38 liters per minute leaving the return of the bomb after going by the rad and for LRWW including 2,5 meters of hose over size of 1\2 inch
Thank you
Of course I´m using a good pump and water block, but did you read the title (extreme watercooling)? That´s what the F2 stands for... I don´t want no one to buy this radiator, which costs around US$ 130 – 250, and use it with a 20 US$ 300 GPH pump...Quote:
Originally posted by zippyc
He seemed to be posting mostly from work, maybe we'll hear from him tomorrow?
It is nice and shiny, much prettier than my raw wood boxes for my radiator housing.
The other thing to notice is how much flow he is using!
An 1100 GPH pump flowing through a whitewater block? WTF???? He is probably getting tremendous flow pressures and many many cycles per minute. Many more than the normal Joe, that is for sure. Flow is a very significant factor for good cooling.
He is using a pump that has a flow rating three to four times that of the average pumps I see out there, which are usually rated between 200, maybe 300 GPH? You guys going to out a buy a two-hundred dollar pump for your $250.00 radiator to get the same results?
Not me. And he is using argueably the best waterblock out there to post his results with (I have one too, now that is an investment worth making.) Hmmmm....
You don't think that they would deliberately use a massive pump like that on the best block available to skew the results now, would you? I get a very bad feeling when people do that to me...
Otherwise, it could be an indicator that they know little or nothing about the water cooling market IMO, at least in the USA. Regardless of how many years he has been developing product. 1100GPH?!? Really?
For $250.00 one could fairly easily get a 5300 BTU Window air conditioner at Home Depot ($99.00) and convert it into a chiller, and I don't care how well the "F2" dissipates heat, your temps would never reach below ambient with that thing whereas you could dial in a chiller to give you 10 below room temperature to negative10C or better! Or you could just funnel an AC's air past your current radiator and beat that performance he posted, even with your current pump little 'ole 300GPH pump.
So if performance is really a #1 factor….put a swifty pelt cooler on your cpu, or convert an AC. That is if you have already gotten the best chip, the best mobo, the best memory, etc…. Or, get an 1100GPH pump.
He could market it in the US, but for $250.00 it would flop IMO. $99.00 would sell probably.
And a final thought....if you think the performance in overclocking is going to improve SIGNIFICANTLY ($250.00 worth of significance?) by a five to ten degree difference in your water temp., well, that has not been my experience.
I usually welcome any watercooling product to the fray, but don't get ripped off. (An 1100GPH Pump, Really?!? I still can't believe it!)
I could put Porsche engine in a VW Beetle and say "my Beetle is the best there is", but unless you buy an engine half the cost of the car for your beetle too, you would be very disappointed comparing it to mine.
Also, you don´t need a Quietone pump. A Mag 700 should work fine, although it will put more heat... Anyway that should not matter, since the F2 rad don´t even feel it, given its dissipation capacity. The outcome might be more 1 C in a 2700mhz 2.1 V, mainly because of the flow decrease.
I really didn´t like the way you used to show my results. You asked if there would be any gain by using regular pumps... Yes there would, but there´s no sense in buying a US$ 130 – 250 rad and using it with a US$ 20 pump or a Maze 3 or 4.
If you thing that there isn´t any gain difference for this system with minus 10 C and reduced deltas, I will start to question how much do you actually know about OC
One of the main reasons to achieve such good results is because of the low system temperatures and the restricted delta. This is due to these factors available in my rad: A radiator that is capable of maintaining the liquid in my cooling system below 1 C above the ambient temperature, and is 3 times less flow restrictive than any other rad I have ever tested, a waterblock capable of removing the heat generated without saturating, heating its mass, and the high flow generated by the pump and rad I´ve picked. Of course its a whole.
If you watch with care, most systems, like chillers and prommies, have a huge difference between how much Mhz they can achieve versus how many Mhz they can actually work. This is due to the high deltas that these systems generate, since, unfortunately, most people that uses a chiller think that they will only put –40 C water in the waterblock, without paying attention to the pump or the waterblock they are using
With Prometeias is the same, if they use too little gas the temperature is constant and high, and if they use too much gas the temperature is low and with a very high delta. The people that thinks that with a vapo or chiller will be able to work with higher mhz than with my watercooling system are completely mistaken... Maybe in a Tropical country like mine
It would be interesting if you look in Futuremark the 9800 results for overclock. You will see my results among the top 30, most of which are using prommies and chillers, and compare how much mhz their CPUs can manage while running a 3dmark. You will also see that they won´t go much further of what I can achieve, although there are some prommies with propane that reaches excellent results with well dosed loads... But these are extremely scarce.
Then again, if I want to reach 4 Ghz in order to get some screens, I could do it using Dry Ice. I don´t need a phase-change or a chiller for it, despite having both. And not these chillers or Prommies Mach II, but some real extreme stuff.
I am sorry, but I choose to lay down my vapo and chiller, and being able to change my mobo every week. The 100-150 more mhz are not worth the convenience that I have of being able to change my mobo in 5 mins.
thanks
One thing I don't see a answer for is the acutal size of this rad. It's not possible for anyone to determine how to set up a rad without knowing the size of that rad.
Could you please post the demensions?
what are the dimentions of that big boy?
I did not say:
"there isn´t any gain difference for this system with minus 10 C and reduced deltas"
I did say :
"if you think the performance in overclocking is going to improve SIGNIFICANTLY ($250.00 worth of significance?) by a five to ten degree difference in your water temp., well, that has not been my experience".
OK, with that said....
My main point was really to caution all the readers in this forum not to expect anywhere near the same results that you are posting unless they have the same pump rating (GPH), and more importantly the same backpressure ability (head) of the pump. They will also have to find a whitewater block that has been on backorder for several months now.
I speculate the MAJORITY of your superior results in cooling at the CPU level is DIRECTLY due to the PUMP CAPACITY , total SYSTEM FLOW, and the WHITEWATER BLOCK, not the cooling ability of the radiators you choose to use.
Try your radiator with an Eheim 1048 yourself, and I believe you will find this to be the case.
I'm not saying you don't have a nice product there, just that it is one "link" in the system "chain" to consider.
If someone wanted to use two or three large $25.00 heater cores in parallel combined back into one flow to get the same GPM running by the whitewater block, they would enjoy similar positive results at the CPU level.
I
I meant to also add that that the F2 is definately one of the prettiest radiator/shroud assemblies I have seen out there, and it looks like very nice work.
:toast:
No offence, but given the cost, I'd much rather take 2 large heater cores with a further $200 change :)
I just wish to compliment you on the workmanship. Very well done, very professional.
Now... copyman... when I said multiple radiator... I was thinking more in term of parallel hookup of rads... Since they are not in line, I doubt it will introduce additional restriction. Can you confirm me when you tested multiple radiator that you did it in parallel or in line? (Last pelt setup I had used 2+1 rads and it didn't feel restrictive at all... with just 1250 pushing the 2 and 1 pushing 1048... of course the 2 were in parellal). I do like your radiator btw :)
First, that radiator costs 250usd because the material of finish in inox and the hand of work involved cost more than 100 usd
I have the same radiator with case painted and in steel galvanized by the price of 130 usd
The radiator costs 130 usd ok, if somebody wants with finish in polished inox as that he had cost oh yes 250 usd
did everybody understand?
......
I think that's clear you've said it enough time :D :DQuote:
Originally posted by copyman
First, that radiator costs 250usd because the material of finish in inox and the hand of work involved cost more than 100 usd
I have the same radiator with case painted and in steel galvanized by the price of 130 usd
The radiator costs 130 usd ok, if somebody wants with finish in polished inox as that he had cost oh yes 250 usd
did everybody understand?
......
We're not here to flame you, i think your work is pretty nice and the rad sure do like awesome but we like to discuss and each offer his point of view. As i said before 250$ is too expensive BUT 130$ is only slighty moreexpensive than a BIX2 and i'm sure your rad beat the bix easily :stick:
hehehe, then because it is only spoken in 250 usd?Quote:
Originally posted by antipop
I think that's clear you've said it enough time :D :D
We're not here to flame you, i think your work is pretty nice and the rad sure do like awesome but we like to discuss and each offer his point of view. As i said before 250$ is too expensive BUT 130$ is only slighty moreexpensive than a BIX2 and i'm sure your rad beat the bix easily :stick:
I will already answer the other subjects, the problem is that my time is short, and I still have some difficulty with English
but soon we continued
the one that I don't like to do is to compare or to want to use that rad with cheap block and cheap bombs, he was not made for that, it is not your purpose, although he poses to be used for instance with block tc4 and a mag700, I have been posting the same over of the amd the with 3 c of difference and 1c of delta the more compared with this system to 2700mhz 2,1v, he worked to 2733mhz
with the addition of the quiet one and of the lrww the temperature fell 3c and the delta decreased 1c and I won 11mhz in the system
you want small and cheap rads for they be used with bombs of 20 dollars and blocks maze, for that they don't need me, the market this full of them, I want to offer a system the front of that
I wanted to review here what I discovered on radiators, I posted information here that give condition to a person that wants to proceed what did and to arrive very close, the only thing that protect myself in speaking is on the technology contained in the chanbers, and that make a great difference in your eficiency
some speak that the same is gotten with 3 rads in parallel, another says that makes the same thing using a rad tractor monster
But none knows anything on radiators and as they work
well then, if it is possible to reach these efficiency indexes using any things of those mentioned, please show me, because I never saw, and really for my knowledge and for the work involved in my radiators I know that is not easy nor that simple.
I am tired of seeing blocks LRWW with potent bombs with radiators dtek or black ice extreme with horrible results, oh a friend comes and he speaks that the percentile of performance is very small for rad, and he is due in most to the other components, show me that is true
where in the darkness they are hidden?
thank's
Copyman, I can only say that your radiator is GREAT..............WoW. :slobber: :slobber:
Your work with it is impressive, nice finish, incredible OC results, man, I WANT ONE OF THOSE.
BIX, D-Tek and stuff like that are just crap compared against your F2.
But, hey, is there any possibility to make an order? :D :D
If it's possible, how much it cost a "normal" version (without that hyperfinish) of this radiator?
I'm very very impressed with your work Copyman.
Regards.
Nearly poetic, ticked off response eh?Quote:
Originally posted by copyman
some speak that the same is gotten with 3 rads in parallel, another says that makes the same thing using a rad tractor monster
But none knows anything on radiators and as they work
well then, if it is possible to reach these efficiency indexes using any things of those mentioned, please show me, because I never saw, and really for my knowledge and for the work involved in my radiators I know that is not easy nor that simple.
where in the darkness they are hidden?
thank's
Read carefully what I said. I didn't say I got same index as you did as I can't verify my previous config which used peltier vs just straight H2O with cathar's block.
In fact, I bet my dual rad beat your set up by decent margin in the index you mentioned... why?... Because the delta in temp was MUCH higher than what your rad would have had. (Just teasing you, please don't take it personal)
What I am asking is, have you tried say... 2 D-tek procore in parallel yourself and found your F2 to be a lot more efficient using same pump, same block, same everything except the rad? Now that would be apple to apple comparison.
Your radiator sure does look nice and sound nice but without some decent benching of efficieny using comparison method, it just doesn't tell much to potential buyer who must spend $250.
Have you tested comparible setup to verify what you claim? or is it just all apple to orange comparison which tells me nothing?
I still do like your radiator for its fit and finish as well as cooling POTENTIAL. Now... show us some proof so we can drool over and start saving up.
You ask me if I already tested two dtek in parallel ok, because I am going you to speak a thing, although I have already tested, but I am here new and my word doesn't count a lot, the cathar uses two dtek in parallel, with an iwk30 with the cascade and lrww, and he doesn't have the same efficiency that I have, ask him...
in any way, a rad F2 this on the way to him, and other to Joe, as soon as he returns of trip
My intention when posting my work was not in selling hundreds of F2 of 250 dollars, but to speak to the people that the limit is other. watercooling goes far away than they imagine.
I am not a mercenary, I am an impassioned by watercooling, I can reduce and to do my cheaper rads yes, since that doesn't cost me anything in perfomance.
I hold that the work is serious and it cost me a long time and money, but it is not my priority
What liked here it is that you spoke to me that has preference for smaller rads and for internal use in the cases, I liked that, so much that in 2 days I will be with 3 prototypes in reduced sizes with two fans
I am sure that I can make any rad in any size, more efficient than any other the sale.
but a thing is right, my construction type is not so cheaply, I don't place radiators of hot air of car the sale announcing that they are radiators for watercoling, those are cheap done to the thousands, very easy, they change the connections and appears a radiator for watercooling
Many would like to have a F2 Extreme in polished inox, few can, for that the same version exists with smaller price of 130us, and only seedling the external material and type of finish, the smallest ones soon will come, it is alone a subject of time.
It is lamentable we discuss not something more intelligent as the operation of F2, instead of that we only spoke in price, it was not that I waited of the friends, perhaps for that it is a little disappointed.
Last, do I understand that I cannot compare with your rig, but the one where the systems dual rad are with performance exelentes?, do show me a since they must they exist in great amount, should not I be the only to use a big bomb a good block and a simple rad and to get good efficiency... or I am?
thank´s
Only a thing I would like to ask, without offenses please and personal, as your processors healthy amd so bad, it is very rare to see processors xp1700+ above 2400mhz, I get in the Brazil processors that rotate above that among 2450 to 2550 mhz the hundreds....
Air cooled....
If somebody wants one it is only to ask, I have friend that selects some 1700 and 1800+ that rotate above 2450mhz with a TT V7, of the to of choosing which saturation voltage each for it tolerates, him also forehead that, to models that rotate to 2580mhz without problem to 1,8v and they only saturate above 2,1v
thank you for the praises friend, but the others are not so bad being taken into account that are simple heatcores with changed connections, which I do they are radiators developed for watercoolig, very different, I don't use anything similar to the one that the in the marketQuote:
Originally posted by Apocalipsis
Copyman, I can only say that your radiator is GREAT..............WoW. :slobber: :slobber:
Your work with it is impressive, nice finish, incredible OC results, man, I WANT ONE OF THOSE.
BIX, D-Tek and stuff like that are just crap compared against your F2.
But, hey, is there any possibility to make an order? :D :D
If it's possible, how much it cost a "normal" version (without that hyperfinish) of this radiator?
I'm very very impressed with your work Copyman.
Regards.
the layers in steel galvanized with painting epox for F2 they are ready in 1 week, it had cost 130usd
I can also make rads using the same technology of that in a size that you judge convenient, it is only to ask
Please speak to me of as it intends to use a F2 (pump, connections and block)
thank you very much
i can attest to oversized rads doing wonders im using a 22x5.5 inch rad 1 inch thick with copper tubes alu fins and 2.0 vcore dont even phase things! so far the highest ive been is 2.6 solid but im kinda worried bout going over 200fsb. have to leave it at 198 currently.
13x198 = 2.575 i think it has more just dont feel like upping the multi again hehe.
Ive got 3 or 4 oversixed rads laying around. ive tested 2 of em. just have to be creative in your rad searches. 130 bucks tho wheweee.
dunno how accurate my temps are to be honest i do know that 2.0 vcore finally made the waterblock get warm hehe.
now that's interesting me, pm me with more details (how did he test them, the code on the chip, the price, ...)Quote:
Originally posted by copyman
Only a thing I would like to ask, without offenses please and personal, as your processors healthy amd so bad, it is very rare to see processors xp1700+ above 2400mhz, I get in the Brazil processors that rotate above that among 2450 to 2550 mhz the hundreds....
Air cooled....
If somebody wants one it is only to ask, I have friend that selects some 1700 and 1800+ that rotate above 2450mhz with a TT V7, of the to of choosing which saturation voltage each for it tolerates, him also forehead that, to models that rotate to 2580mhz without problem to 1,8v and they only saturate above 2,1v
It will be interesting indeed to see what Cathar's testing with a F2 and his new Cascade block shows. And Cathar has a MD-30rlzt whick while it doesn't give the same massive total flow of Copyman's quietone pump has a huge amount of head (pressure) while pumping 4.6gpm.
Cathar's results will be your best chance Copyman for some major notice. Cathar is extremly respected and for good reason.
If your F2 turns out to be the rad version of a LRWW or a Cascade you'll be selling many of them. Most would have to be the lower cost model but I'll bet they will sell well.