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by using a valve core tool and the super heat thermometer and a elbow with a hole drilled into it ,you can slide a direct reading thermometer right into the center of the evap and read superheat. or could pm & see what DetroitAC would charge to put the evap under a steady state balanced load and give you actual test data. other wise every one is guessing.
Your right Walt we are guessing. Most of the results we get in PC cooling are determined by trial and error. R and D in the garage. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
This design has been tested and proven on PC cooling. I think all we did was improve on what has already been done. We take no credit for what some one else has already done.
If someone can think of a better way - we are all ears. Does anyone have a suggestion on a way to make improvements?? :stick: :stick:
Could you tell me exactly what this test will prove? What data will he have to compare it to?Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Exactly what is this data going to tell us?
Well it will give you solid base line data to compare new revisions and how it performs compare to other blocks.
This is a very good idea, what every one should do is get the various block designs and send them all in to him should he be willing. This will enable you to build more efficient and better blocks with solid design data.
^^^^^
yeah thats a good idea: but unless im reading this wrong i don't think people will be too eager to send away there new evaps, unless sold of course, but i don't think anyone wants to buy like 10 evaps to test
thats why the builders volunteer them to be tested and then mailed back, if the builder is serious about their work they will be more then willing to pay at least shipping there and back.
nice design...........hopefully it holds load as good as it looks
you just need to pair it with a nice monster rotary and you're done :D heheheh
Walt is saying is that for the past 5 years evaporators have gone in and out of fashion, but not once has anyone done any sort of scientific testing. With respect i don't think anyone should put too much trust comparitive builder results / opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by runmc
I agree with Jurgen to a point. Evaporator exit has a very high superheat under full load. If i had to guess i'd say that under full load only the first third / half of the evap contains any liquid but i doubt it'll make much difference on this as the distances are very small...
I think it is a nice evap, machining is realy good and it should work well :)
Tom
ron: call it geussing if you want, I'd rather call it a hypothesis. the place where the heat flux is most concentrated is directly above the core so that is where you want to remove it. the refrigerant needs to change phase to remove heat, so you want liquid refrigerant above the center. But when you have liquid refrigerant above the center it will boil above the center and thus trow loads of liquid refrigerant in the suction line, all wasted. I'm sorry I can't explain it more simpel, I don't understand why you guys don't understand this. It's rather trivial. evap design 101 should have covered this :p:
you need to change the evap so there is liquid refrigerant above the core, it's as simpel as that. So let the cap enter in the center or change the design so the center is always flooded.
Jurgen,
I don't think it will throw back liquid because i don't think liquid will get anywhere near that far under load.
It depends on the base thickness but i dont think the outer temp will be much below inner (core contact) temp. For this diameter and style (assuming even temp distribution on refrigerant side (~meh) and 10mm x 10mm for CPU) a base thickness of 6 to 10mm is works out good, much below that you loose out. You balance resistance (three dimetional length from source) against resistance (three dimentional area from source).
But i agree with what you said :)
Tom
I can see your point about superheat and suction in the center. Gosmeyer and I had talked about that and he suggested cap in center. My reasoning was based on results I had seen in stepper and spiral. In those designs it seemed to me that if the liquid entered the top of the evap it was evaporating on it way down which didn't take long so there was still saturated refrigerant by the time it reached the bottom and it continued to absorb heat on the way up. If you put the cap to the bottom of the evap in the stepper and spiral, the liquid was at the bottom for only a second and then headed up leaving the refrigerant in the evap for less time. If it entered the top it went down and then back up, if it entered the bottom it only went up. We are talking about a very shot distance here and a very short period of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
Unknown_Road - what would be the harm of the evap being flooded all the way to the suction line (center) ? I certainly am not dis agreeing with you. I think you have a good point which Gosmeyer and I did discuss, but since the evap has been tried before by others, as it is made here, I thought that it wouldn't be a problem. The evap is being flooding slightly off center all the time.
Tom: I agree if it is charged correctly liquid refrigerant most likely won't reach the center, in this case the surface area in the center of the evap doesn't contribute to cooling.
ron: if the evap is flooded all the way to the center, already boiled off refrigerant will push it out and boiling refrigerant at the center will do the same thing. so the evap will have guarenteed floodback making it inefficient.
If I remember correctly most maze evaps I've seen have refrigerant entering in the center.
I have asked Gosmeyer if he would make another top and switch the cap and suction holes. I hope he's not too mad at me. :slapass:Quote:
ron: if the evap is flooded all the way to the center, already boiled off refrigerant will push it out and boiling refrigerant at the center will do the same thing. so the evap will have guarenteed floodback making it inefficient.
If I remember correctly most maze evaps I've seen have refrigerant entering in the center.
Walt - I see your point in a structured evaporator test, but I don't see anyone wanting to donate time and money to such a project. Maybe some day a big company will do testing but I'm sure they'll keep results to themselves.;)
Well, I guess we will have Rev1 sometime this week .
But let’s get it all ironed if we can.
I would ship one for baseline.
I'd pay for propper testing by a skilled engineer (such as DetroitAC) within reason of cost and this is just for me on my own. For someone who is selling evaporators, testing should be less of a decision but there's the big issue of wether a seller would want their evaporators tested and compared...Quote:
Originally Posted by runmc
Tom
Competition is good . The cream will always rise making all better.
Only a down side to those who would not.
I don’t care what widget your after. It applies to all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
Well, it just depends who is designing the evap, an amateur or a professional...
I'm not in a position to test anybody's evap right now, just too busy with many other things. If I were to test evaps, there would of course have to be a fee for doing so. My time is just as valuable to me as anybody else's, there is no way I could afford to donate a day's work.
When I do get some time to get the calorimeter working, I'll be testing and developing my own evaps. I'm not what you would call a big company, but yes my results on my evaps will be confidential. If I were to test anyone else's evaps that would also be confidential to the person paying me, except I would obviously know the results.
In my industry, this is not much of an issue. Everyone tests their competitors, everyone knows the performance of their competitors and usually knows the price. The result is that there are easy to understand tradeoffs with component performance, quality, price, etc.
seems to me nobody here is a professional evap designer?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssilencer
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitAC
Exactly ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
I for one would be willing to pay a fee. That is only expected. :toast:
As long as I know, @itor is the only one with enough thermodynamics knowledge and years of experience making waterblocks to do original things and not copys of other stuff or to ask how to do something to later sell it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
A plumber is a plumber
A ref service do ref services
And none of them can design something without proper knowledge (or a lot of luck...) just because it has a certification to get gases or to do brazing and solder services.
I really can get it, all this will be shared to the community as a "community evap" at a community price" or this will just be another commercial evap?
Edit:
Detroit is right, company's usually get the competitor product to do test and try to get something better, but you Walt are asking people to send a product to a potential competitor (as already Detroitc said, he will be doing an evap in the future) and to pay a fee for the service to give the competitor the possibility to test and get the insides of your work? :stick:
No thanks, we have our own testing bench.
I don't get it.
:lol: come on, you really believe that? how on earth do you think to know what education every body here follows/followed. you give yourself and your friend to much credit without knowing about othersQuote:
Originally Posted by Ssilencer
and the biggest problem I see with most evaps is that they're designed like they're waterblocks instead of 2 phase blocks.
Ask the people that is getting them... and the ones that already used them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
No, I'm not saying that nobody knows how to do, just that a lot of them are just doing trial and miss without background.
And I don't take any credit on things that I don't do.
In industry no matter what the competitor WILL know nearly every thing about your block the second the first 5 sales are made, as he'll be one of the 5!
If you can pay him to return the info he learns it is all the more help full to you to stream line your design and make a better block. It is all ways a balancing game between them all.
It seems allot of you don't understand the name of the game in production R&D for sale.
I'll let you on to a secret thing that is critical in making a better block: Base line data! with that you know if that extra edge really made a difference or not, with out base line data every thing is a guess or assumption. With out base line data you are wandering and stumbling around blind.
I'm frankly not well enough educated to do my own R&D from scratch, but I've been privy to work with ones who where and do it, and it has taught me what makes or breaks the R&D work is the base line data be for and after each test, with out the base line data the test is a waste of every ones time and effort!
The benefit of getting that data is insurmountable, RunMC sees this, and if you really wish to get any where and to improve in design you too must get this data and it must be consistent and accurate, and you'll only get that from one place from the same guy, from the same test rig, Detroit A/C just may end up being that one guy or may not, if you can make your own test rig that can accurately measure every thing and nothing on it changes other then the evap then you can possibly become that one guy.
you litteraly say "he is the only one with enough thermodynamic knowlegde"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssilencer
How do you know the level of thermodynamic knowlegde of other here, I study physics at a university so I think I know a thing or two about thermodynamics as well.