Storm Vs. Apogee: Too Much Hype?

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11-27-2006, 06:19 PM
andersson.j

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa

-Why was the Apogee tested using 10MM fittings instead of 12.7MM(1/2") fittings like the Storm was? Testing shows that the Apogee significantly benefits from larger fittings, so why werent the same sized fittings used?

As far as I can understand Apogee was tested with the same fittings as Storm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee "RoboTech" Garbutt

Tests were conducted with both the 1/2" (10mm) and 3/8” (7mm) barb fittings.

Link

10 and 7mm doesn't refer to the outer diameter of the barb but the inner diameter.

However I found a small flaw in the test that makes Storm look a tad more restrictive than it actually is. The test compares Apogee to Storm rev 1 instead of rev 2 which is slightly less restrictive. The difference between storm and apogee is still very small, but as nikhsub1 said all blocks perform pretty close.
11-27-2006, 08:12 PM
WeStSiDePLaYa

Quote:

Originally Posted by andersson.j

As far as I can understand Apogee was tested with the same fittings as Storm.

Link

10 and 7mm doesn't refer to the outer diameter of the barb but the inner diameter.

However I found a small flaw in the test that makes Storm look a tad more restrictive than it actually is. The test compares Apogee to Storm rev 1 instead of rev 2 which is slightly less restrictive. The difference between storm and apogee is still very small, but as nikhsub1 said all blocks perform pretty close.

1/2"=12.7mm

and yes. pretty much ALL modern waterblocks perform very very closely to each other.

im not really trying to show the apogee is better.

im more trying to show the storm really isnt all its hyped up to be.
11-27-2006, 09:30 PM
voigts

Threads like this convince me all the more to stick with my good old 6002. And for cleaning, a little bit of scrubbing bubbles does the trick every time.
11-27-2006, 09:34 PM
Bun-Bun

I think I have decided to get an Apogee over a Storm... Why? Because with 2 DDC+ pumps and petra's tops my flow rates will be insane and I think overall my loop would benefit from that more...
11-27-2006, 09:41 PM
STEvil

6002's stay pretty clean..
11-27-2006, 10:03 PM
WeStSiDePLaYa

Quote:

Originally Posted by voigts

Threads like this convince me all the more to stick with my good old 6002.

certainly dont blame you. i wish there was a block with the base design of a 6002A, but the seperate top, fittings, and mount plates like the storm and apogee.
11-27-2006, 11:36 PM
STEvil

Wouldnt be very hard really. Just pop the top on a 6002 and then cast replicas with a row of pins around the outside removed and an inlay for the o-ring where they were. Use a copper or lexan riser to lift the top above the pins or integrate the riser to the top.
11-28-2006, 02:22 AM
Digz

From what i've read in Cathar posts if you change the loop from 3/8"
to 1/2" there is a 1 degree drop if the rest of the loop/parts are kept
the same.
11-28-2006, 03:42 AM
andersson.j

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa

1/2"=12.7mm

and yes. pretty much ALL modern waterblocks perform very very closely to each other.

im not really trying to show the apogee is better.

im more trying to show the storm really isnt all its hyped up to be.

Yes 1/2" = 12.7mm and I'm sure Lee knows that too. I belive he's using the supplied 1/2" and 3/8" barbs and that the 10mm you see in the graph refers to the 1/2" barbs ID.

I agree that storm isn't worth so much more than apogee (for most people).
11-28-2006, 03:51 AM
WeStSiDePLaYa

Quote:

Originally Posted by andersson.j

Yes 1/2" = 12.7mm and I'm sure Lee knows that too. I belive he's using the supplied 1/2" and 3/8" barbs and that the 10mm you see in the graph refers to the 1/2" barbs ID.

I agree that storm isn't worth so much more than apogee (for most people).

7mm=1/2" OD fittings
10mm= 3/8" ID fittings
12.7mm= 1/2" ID fittings.

and i just dont think the same 1/2" fittings were used.
11-28-2006, 04:20 AM
[XC]Atomicpineapple

Thanks for an interesting comparison WeStSiDePLaYa. It seems that the Storm is the way to go if you want a cost-be-damned SINGLE BLOCK loop. Plus it is a chance to own a superb piece of engineering designed by the WC legend, Cathar. The Apogee has been shown here to virtually equal the Storms performance at a lower restriction and so should be the block of choice for multi-block loops as it will enable the other blocks to perform to their best potential.

As regards the whole barb size issue, first consider the case that the Apogee may have been tested with 1/2" fittings which means that given an equal tubing size to the Storm it loses by less than 1 degree while saving you a huge pressure drop. Next consider that it may have been tested with 3/8" fittings. This would give an advantage to the Storm. If that was the case one can assume that the Apogees performance would have been further enhanced by the use of 1/2" fittings, cutting the gap between it and the Storm even more and perhaps making it the block of choice in single block loops as well. Either way the Apogee is perhaps one of the most under-rated blocks ever.
11-28-2006, 06:06 AM
andersson.j

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa

7mm=1/2" OD fittings
10mm= 3/8" ID fittings
12.7mm= 1/2" ID fittings.

and i just dont think the same 1/2" fittings were used.

7mm ID = 3/8" OD fittings
10mm ID = 1/2" OD fittings
12.7mm ID = Not possible with Storm nor Apogee because it requires larger threads than 1/4 NPSM.

I own both Storm and Apogee so I know that Swiftech includes two pairs of barbs with them which they call 1/2" and 3/8".

According to my calliper
The OD of the 1/2" barb below the flange is 12.7mm which is probably why it's called 1/2". The ID is 10mm which is probably what the 10mm in the graph refers to.
The OD of the 3/8" barb below the flange is 9.5mm which is probably why it's calld 3/8". The ID is 7mm which is probably what the 7mm in the graph refers to.

In the Storm test he writes "I used the supplied ½” hose barb fittings" which is identical to the 1/2" barbs supplied with Apogee. He only uses the 3/8" OD 7mm ID barbs once in the Apogee test to show that the differential pressure is much higher with 3/8" than with 1/2" barbs. In all other graphs 1/2" barbs were used. At least that's how I understand the test.
11-28-2006, 01:54 PM
WeStSiDePLaYa

Quote:

Originally Posted by andersson.j

7mm ID = 3/8" OD fittings
10mm ID = 1/2" OD fittings
12.7mm ID = Not possible with Storm nor Apogee because it requires larger threads than 1/4 NPSM.

I own both Storm and Apogee so I know that Swiftech includes two pairs of barbs with them which they call 1/2" and 3/8".

According to my calliper
The OD of the 1/2" barb below the flange is 12.7mm which is probably why it's called 1/2". The ID is 10mm which is probably what the 10mm in the graph refers to.
The OD of the 3/8" barb below the flange is 9.5mm which is probably why it's calld 3/8". The ID is 7mm which is probably what the 7mm in the graph refers to.

In the Storm test he writes "I used the supplied ½” hose barb fittings" which is identical to the 1/2" barbs supplied with Apogee. He only uses the 3/8" OD 7mm ID barbs once in the Apogee test to show that the differential pressure is much higher with 3/8" than with 1/2" barbs. In all other graphs 1/2" barbs were used. At least that's how I understand the test.

if you look at much of the testing, it says right on the graphs 10mm.

also, the barbs we mostly use are 1/2" ID. from my 1/2" barbs ive measured, the inside of the barb is 1/2". hence the term 1/2" inner diameter.
11-28-2006, 02:31 PM
Petra

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa

also, the barbs we mostly use are 1/2" ID. from my 1/2" barbs ive measured, the inside of the barb is 1/2". hence the term 1/2" inner diameter.

That's flat out wrong... The information that andersson.j provided is correct (see below for more).

Specs for commonly used barbs (pulled from my site, with a little extra info added for the 1/4" NPSM EJ fitting):

EK G1/4 (1/4" BSPP) 1/2" High Flow:
Barb Size: ~1/2" OD (~14mm at widest point in barb tip), 10mm ID
Thread Size: G 1/4" (BSPP)
Materiel: Nickel Plated Brass
Thread Length: 6mm
Total Length: ~1 1/16" (27mm)
Fitting Type: Threaded Barb w/recessed o-ring
Suggested Use: 1/2" ID or 7/16" ID Tubing

DD G1/4, 1/2" High Flow:
Barb Size: ~1/2" OD (~13.25mm at widest point in barb tip), 10mm ID
Thread Size: G 1/4" (BSPP)
Materiel: Nickel Plated Brass
Thread Length: 4mm
Total Length: ~1 1/8" (28mm)
Fitting Type: Threaded Barb
Suggested Use: 1/2" ID or 7/16" ID Tubing

DD 9/16UNF (9/16-18) High Flow:
Barb Size: ~1/2" OD (~13.5mm at widest point in barb tip), 10mm ID
Thread Size: 9/16" UNF (9/16-18)
Materiel: Nickel Plated Brass
Thread Length: 6.5mm
Total Length: ~1 3/16" (30.5mm)
Fitting Type: Threaded Barb
Suggested Use: 1/2" ID or 7/16" ID Tubing

AqX 9/16UNF (9/16-18) High Flow:
Barb Size: ~1/2" OD (~13.5mm at widest point in barb tip), 10.5mm ID
Thread Size: 9/16" UNF (9/16-18)
Materiel: Nickel Plated Brass
Thread Length: 5mm
Total Length: ~1.14" (29mm)
Fitting Type: Threaded Barb
Suggested Use: 1/2" ID or 7/16" ID Tubing

AqX G3/8 (3/8" BSPP), 1/2" High Flow:
Barb Size: ~1/2" OD (~13.25mm at widest point in barb tip), 10.5mm ID
Thread Size: G 3/8" (BSPP)
Materiel: Nickel Plated Brass
Thread Length: 6mm
Total Length: ~1.21" (30.75mm)
Fitting Type: Threaded Barb
Suggested Use: 1/2" ID or 7/16" ID Tubing

EJ (Eldon James -- currently used by Swiftech) 1/4" NPSM, 1/2" black nylon fitting:
Barb Size: 1/2" OD (~14.25mm at widest point in barb tip), 10mm ID (typically narrows to 9mm ID within the fitting & is ~9.25mm ID at the threaded exit)
Thread Size: 1/4" NPSM (O-Ring Included)
Materiel: Black Nylon
Thread Length: 13mm
Total Length: ~1 15/16" (~48mm)
Fitting Type: Threaded Barb
Suggested Use: Direct replacement barb for most newer Swiftech products. Barb is intended for use with 1/2" ID or 7/16" ID Tubing
11-28-2006, 02:36 PM
bruce+

:confused:

The 1/2" barbs fitting actually is "For" 1/2" tube, therefore, the outside diameter is 1/2" aka 12.7mm.

If you have a 1/2" ID barbs fitting, the diameter of outside wall is 5/8" and G 1/4 BSPP thread won't fit.

oops, Petra beat me
11-28-2006, 02:39 PM
WeStSiDePLaYa

aaaaaaaaah yeah yeah.

ok, i was was thinking bad:slapass: . the tubing is 1/2" ID not the barbs. never mind me.
11-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Shpoon

Totally offtopic, but STEvil...how's the snow? :p:
11-28-2006, 03:28 PM
virtualrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bun-Bun

I think I have decided to get an Apogee over a Storm... Why? Because with 2 DDC+ pumps and petra's tops my flow rates will be insane and I think overall my loop would benefit from that more...

I think you will find that dual pumps is too much flow unless you have more restriction elsewhere in your loop. I have a dual pump setup with an apogee, MCW30, and watercooled PSU and the temps are worse when both pumps are running at 12V vs. at 7V... More info here...

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=120421
11-28-2006, 03:32 PM
Sparky

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualrain

I think you will find that dual pumps is too much flow unless you have more restriction elsewhere in your loop. I have a dual pump setup with an apogee, MCW30, and watercooled PSU and the temps are worse when both pumps are running at 12V vs. at 7V... More info here...

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=120421

So more flow isn't always better then
11-28-2006, 03:37 PM
DarkCow

what about the fact that one is modded and one isn't. would that affect it in any way?
11-28-2006, 05:51 PM
JoeBar

Nice work gathering all this info WeStSiDePLaYa. :)

I won't argue that Apogee is the best price/performance block out there and its performance is very close to Storm. But consider some points:
1) The Strom is the better performing block out there. Even by 1'C or 2'C or even 0.5'C. For many out there the price of the block can't justify the performance difference, but this is a big difference as of today.
2) If u go out for wc'ing purchase u go with what's the best your money can buy. I too agree though that going for a storm along with a bip is not a wise choise. Storm is the best and should be combined only with the best like Thermochill and DDC+.
3) U can't mess a wb purchase with a hw upgrade. There's no point in comparing 10fps more, with 1sec faster prime 1M to 2'C. It's apples to oranges...
4) The price of the storm is fully justified to me with it unique design and better looks. Plus it's designed by a legend.

BTW we can't argue that much about 40$... My :2cents:
11-28-2006, 06:12 PM
IanY

Well, the Storm is the best performing water block for all cpus, except for the Quad Core Intels, where there is tremendous controversy. The market is only just coming to the realization that the Storm design may not always be the best for all cpu applications. I am still undecided.
11-28-2006, 06:20 PM
WeStSiDePLaYa

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualrain

I think you will find that dual pumps is too much flow unless you have more restriction elsewhere in your loop. I have a dual pump setup with an apogee, MCW30, and watercooled PSU and the temps are worse when both pumps are running at 12V vs. at 7V... More info here...

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=120421

i cant really comment on that, because it seems there would be issues somewhere else. but that is an overly complicated loop, so im not sure what to say.
11-28-2006, 06:43 PM
DarkCow

i agree with the fact that if you already have a thermochill, a 100 dollar pump, and expensive everything, might as well go ahead and get the storm. theres nothing more that i hate then a bottle neck.
11-28-2006, 08:38 PM
Mr. Peanut

I've been saying this for a while, now, but I never really had test results to back it up. For the beginning and/or budget watercooler, I think that the Apogee really is the best block.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkCow

i agree with the fact that if you already have a thermochill, a 100 dollar pump, and expensive everything, might as well go ahead and get the storm. theres nothing more that i hate then a bottle neck.

The flow restriction of the strom could acutally HURT the performance of the rest of your expensive loop if it cools GPU, NB, or anything else, though.

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