Thats what I was thinking, but S7' why not introduce cryo-tek to extreme overclocking with cpu or gpu as a load?
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Thats what I was thinking, but S7' why not introduce cryo-tek to extreme overclocking with cpu or gpu as a load?
it's not very often when someone like cryo just pops out of nowhere :) congrats on the insane autocascade :toast:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
Amazing Cryo ! :toast:
We need to setup Cryo with a nice computer rig so he can test it :eek: , maybe he can take understand the fun we have using phase to cool our rigs :eek:
I dont know if we want to put him thru that with the mounting and unmounting, insulating and start delay.....:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Good idea if someone wants to donate a rig:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
Hell...I will donate a dual core 165 if Cryo will charge one for me like that....:D
edit; processor....and of course i would need a design drawing first ;-)
Now you have me thinking..........I have no details yet but think about this. We combine autocascade technology with cascade technology. Use the autocascade to condense the nitrogen at a high pressure (first stage).Feed some of the liquid through a captube into one side of a heat exchanger and vent to atmosphere. This will cool the heat exchanger. The rest of the liquid will drain into the other side and be sub cooled (second stage). If it is sub cooled low enough you might be able to reduce the pressure and have liquid remain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
No details no drawing, just a thought with lots of holes.
There must be something like this on the web. Liqufication systems.
Well the liquidification system I was thinking of indeed utilizes sup cooling.
Imagine the second compreser, where a thermos acts as a receiver & evap all at once. The fist system super cools the condencer where we suply the cap tube to the thermos with a T fiting on the suction side going to a co2 Botle.
As the pressur drops as we liquify the CO2 we add more gass to mainain pressure and soon you have a full thermos of liquid CO2, or Nitrogen (I took the design from a liquid helium plant) but since we don't need any highely complex fractional disolaters to remove other gasses since out feed stock is pur (Unlike the air to LN2 plants) we can use a much simpler system.
Hehehe...no worries...we're already working on it ;) BTW, he's already got a load tester @ 150W. The unit's been tested and holds that heat load @ -125C (-141C idle). He's just playing around with the polycold now. -160+C won't hold any load to speak of. Consider this just an "exhibition" of the pure power of autocascades :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
@ Cryo: Like your new title? We had to have a new category created just for you ;) I'd say you've burst on the scene with quite a splash...now it's time for the real fun to begin :D
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=97279 < Take a look at the compressors I have there n tell me what Ya think can be don with them. one thees days when I have cash I'll steal a friend n well make a trip with a bunch of toys and we all can spend a week building or some thing. be realy neat to make our own LN2 Production plant hehe.
I'm already on it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
I like it! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
Well I just found out that my salvaged Tucamesh Plant is good for 6,650BTU/H and is a medium range plant with a HUGE Condencer (It was for a walk in freezer) and has a nice sized receiver on it, perhaps it will suit well as a final stage for the liquifier.
damnnnnnnn... *starts building hx*
Jeez Pony....you are a mad man, but I like the way you think.
lol thanks, I may be insane but consistant!
I scavanged a sexy chunk of styrafoam :) for a nice Hx, I figur a CoAxial helical foam encased Hx designed to sink 2TONs 1/2" Outer shell evap with a 1/4 internal tube for condencer 5 or 7 feet 1/2" and 6 or 8 feet 1/4"
I figure 5*5*7"
And I forgot to mention for the feed gass system a low pressur regulater to keep a constant suction pressur, that way as the gas liquifies the regulater auto maticly inject gass to X pressure for the system.
(Friends and I been plotting this for a loooooong time hehe)
And to make walt happy YES we have designed in a blow out Valve from day one into the system ;)
Yea I thought about trying that for a HX cut the smaller wraps right out of the center of a full roll of type L and fishing the 1/4" thru it because is tough getting a tight wrap on 1/2".Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
Ya you premessure every thing then wrap it.
I'm thinking for the final stage condencer will be 3/8" ID Evap with a 3/16 ID Condencer since it will be dealing with the highest pressures. Sounds more logicle and easier to get a higher coil density with out consuming a ton of space.
holy jeez -150c thats freaking nuts DUDE
cant wait to see some results stephen ;)
You may have to go with 3/16 O.D. -- 3/16 I.D. would be 1/4 O.D. and may be to close to the 3/8" I.D. or hinder evaporation, and you could still coil 2 pieces in parallel so as not to affect pressure while keeping it compactQuote:
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
ya I meant OD lol
You guys are crazy........:D
I think it's time for me to quit playing around with cascades........I quit.......:D :toast:
cryo-tek.. as far as I understand you're autocascade design are little different then than the designes ppl here are used to build. Could you please show u a schematic, because only reading text how it's done won't get most of us any wiser. Maybe you could also explain what happens with wich gas where in the picture.. thanx allready
I waiting to see this also ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by GuuZ
I would like to see the picture of this wonderious rig :)
I might be wrong. But from his last post, the designs are not far from what we have. I think it is the type of refrigerant he uses for his autocascades.which most of us could not have access to, or do not have enough knowledge on the purpose of it. For example R123 was used in most of his autoc but most of the autoc in XS do not use such refrigerant.Maybe because we do not know its properties enough.
But still i would like to know how far his designs are from those in XS but i would be more interested to know the use of some of his unusual refrigerant like R123.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx
im interested in direction of flow on the hxs.
ie cc1 cc2 and coaxial hx
ie evap bottom up with high stage entering top exit bottom.
i cant confirm but it looks like one of the cc's flows high stage entering bottom??
Ummm, I'm not sure that everyone understands that this unit wasn't built by Cryo-tek (although he can and does build units of his own). This particular unit was built by Polycold and therefore the schematic would be under NDA. Here's a basic diagram of a 3 stage autocascade. If you can't figure it out, then you shouldn't be building an autocascade yourself :p:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7808/cryo11nv.jpg
i always thought it was called a metering device,
cuz i've never seen a captube expanding :p:
But the schematic looks reasonable, 4 metering devices, 4 evap+suction / liquidline HX, 3 phase seperators :)
I'm just amazed that it actually works :D
we need to find out what is happening with the argon, now it just doesn't make sense. The pressure/temperature just isn't the way it should be with argon. When we understand what is going on with the argon, we might be able to build cascades that will hold a load at -140*C or something. wish I had those gasses.
btw cryo-tek, any idea what kind of oil is in the system? Since you got r14 in it succesfully and people here had oil issues between r14 and POE. Could you please answer a few of our questions?
At that evap temp you should be having a pressure of about 45 bar! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
Well have all gases except... R123... I just can't bring myself to buy 100lbs of it... anyone in US care to split (with proper license?)? It's pretty cheap per pound but only thing I see is 100lbs and 200lbs drums... bleh.
I do have r22, R23, R116, obviously nitrogen and argon handy... :P Just need to learn exact purposes and what happens to really get to it.
Argon helps lower the partial pressure of the r14 allowing it to evaporate @ lower temps. However, one of the drawbacks of adding argon is that it will increase discharge pressures. Argon is cheap and readily available - as you probably know already, it's a sheilding gas.......*How was that Cryo-tek? I'm sounding smarter already :p: *Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
EDIT - Forgot to add: The argon itself doesn't condense....
Evap temp @ -162C = 180psi discharge ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Sorry but I don't buy that, partitial pressure doesn't reach anything in the range of -140 with r14. just look at a PT-chart of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
Ok...well, I'm just repeating what cryo-tek's told me. What is your theory to what is happening here? It would be interesting to hear :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
Wow! I hate this smilie, but this is the thread it was put here for :)
:eek2:
that is just amazing:slobber:Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
Lemme think clearly for a moment at 3:36 AM in the morning.... (had a customer unit i had to finish... he was here :))
So...
Argon takes volume in chamber... but doesn't condense or evaporates...
it certainly doesn't condense anywhere in loop, and is non condensable.
Obviously high side pressure do go up with this. With the artificially developed high side pressure, we see higher pressure differential than normally would have seen considering we still have same amount of gas without argon. All the evaporating happens same thus as in amount of refrigerant but the differential aids in creating more flow of liquid...or I think it should within reason. But as restriction didn't really change -captubing- we have condition in evap which refrigerant can expand better (well argon doesn't really expand unlike refrigerant obviously around temp we are dealing with)...? better temp is always lower suction pressure after all. so it must also translate the other way in this case... (gotta love how gas laws always goes hand in hand).
I think I am rambling off...
Now care to explain why nitrogen (other than it's boiling and melting point) is not a good candidate for this reason? Or is it...?
better temp is always lower suction pressure after all.
wrong.
Yeah... hmmmQuote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
I just thought about it and, realized... what is SUCTION pressure in this case... lol.
after what stage? I think that 20psi is combined suction pressure right before or inside compressor.... so it might be running well into vacuum for evap stage.
thats a nice diagram, anyone wanna trial and error captube length on such a system?? :slap: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
NO! suction pressure is almost the same everywhere as long as you don't have restrictions along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
cryo-tek: trow some methane in the system!
How much argon would be required to drive the pressures up to 700 PSI at -120C which argon could turn partly liquid. If the charge is correct i believe that it will not drive the pressure up astronomically and might still help in maintaining the ultra low temps. And there is still an expansion tank, it could help slowly release the extra mix into the system if a captube is used. so this could also be a crucial point.
you want the system to work at 700psi??:slap:
No 123? try 11 or 114Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
Well ... first of all ... cryo-tek: Your units go LIKE HELL! :eek: :slobber:
I'm a fan of autocascades .... but your's beat everything I knew til now! :banana:
REEAALLLLLLY NICE! ;) :)
Short question:
How long does this nice unit need to come down to ... let's say .... -100°C? :)
regards
404Power
PS: PLZ check your PMs! ;) :) (I only wrote one ... not 3 or so! :D :nono:)
lol cyro all of us want to know how does the argon work in your system without having sky rocket pressures. pls explain.
Let the guy dont get 1000 pm's in an hour guys like stephen said... this will work not in our favor!
I need to get some work done but here is a quick bit. These are ROUGH ROUND NUMBERS !! Please don’t beat me up over a small % of error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
Argon works best in the three stage units. (3 seps, 3 CCs)
Two or is this three theories on the argon:
1) Argon lowers the partial pressure of the R-14 in the evaporator allowing it to evaporate at lower temp.
Evap pressure: 25psia (10.3 psig) R-14 Evap temp = -120c.
Add the argon: 50% by pressure.
Evap pressure: 25psia = 12.5 psia R-14 and 12.5 psia argon. Evap temp = -130c. (see your PT chart) More argon = lower temps.
2) Argon dissolves into the liquid R-14 and lowers its evaporating temperature. (i.e. Glycol and water).
3) All of the above.
You guys are keeping me awake at night. CAFFINE !! I need a another Dew:eek:
I’m trying to answer questions and work for a living, this was in a PM so I’m posting for all to see.
#1 behavior of r123:
The R-123 condenses easily in the condenser and will dump large amounts of heat. The R-123 also helps with oil management in the #1 Phase Separator and compressor cooling.
I'll mail you my custom blend of coffe', I'll all so sent some industrial strength lye (after the coffe' the lye will have a great soothing effect on the soon to follow heart burn)
Lol
My coffe' can be used as either a necromaging substance or rocket fuel, or industrial solvent, very versital! :D
3 seperators would be a 4 stager would it not be?Quote:
Argon works best in the three stage units. (3 seps, 3 CCs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
1) it doesn't work that way, pressure is pressure, it doesn't matter what gas is the reason for the pressure.
2) maybe, but if this is the case you'll never be able to hold a load temp lower as with only r14.
I thought so too! ^^ :confused: :)Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
You see, than here comes the quesiton about...Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
R508... R23+R116. Individually they are higher boiling temp than R508a/b. But the fact is they work together achieving lower temp. Major difference I saw on these two gases are mass and very high differentail on critical pressure. I am wondering such behaviour as described above happens partially in this mix where R116's low critical pressure and maybe heavier mass aids hugely in getting pressure down of R23 enough to point where under same pressure the part of gas is in lower pressure for mix and brings boiling temp down. Just something for thought.
PS) most of my questions and ideas are basically my mind spinning off while learning this new things... has happened when I started playing with single stage is happening now again I guess :)
Guess ill be looking for r123,r23 and r14 on the next weeks lol
R23 and r14 are easy to get but expensive
R123 never looked for it :p
jinu: that's because these gasses form an azeotrophic mixture. that's something totally different.
someone should trow in some argon+r14 in the 3th stage of a normal cascasde.
www.r22.org has r123, only problem is that they sell it in 100lb drums and costs 420 dollar
Each stage would have a separator and a cascade condenser to it. The cascade condenser is feed by a captube with liquid collected from the discharge line prier to its entry into the cascade condenser. The separator is used to separate the gas from the liquid.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Note of interest: A separator can be as simple as a tee in the discharge line with the branch pointing up (leg 3):rolleyes:
Yup... but what is azeotrophic mixture really? :P Why is it called that (not based on symptons but how it works).Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
Anyways, as I said R123 only sells in 100lbs and 200lbs drums. price is dirt cheap compared to most refrigerant considering 100lbs!!! that,s $4 a pound! I've got few quotes of different gas going up to $180 a pound (i think this is where it stops as some company's flat rate for mixing unusual gas is about $180 a pound).
THough there are few other non HCFC gases based on reading i was doing that can do the job... R2xx designations (not propane... low boiling for that one lol), care gas...
One thing we could use also cheaply for interstage is R134a obviously... (don't think R22 plays with it well though so you will have to use either...).
Got some mixture ideas rolling... this is going to be expensive... I think I am out of game on going down to R14 game for time being as I've already spent too much on refrigerant alone.
Do you have R-11, R-113 or R-114?
I changed the drawing to show tees inplace of the separators.
This works.
azeotropic mixtures form a gas with new properties often because of dipoles or other molecular structures. the properties can be different from the basis gasses.
Why quit while you can build an autocascade cascade ??:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
Maybe this will help you understand things a bit better ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...5&RS=6,631,625
Thanks W :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waus-mod
PLEASE PEOPLE, GIVE THE GUY A BIT OF BREATHING ROOM! HE'S WILLING TO HELP, BUT IF YOU GUYS KEEP PUSHING, HE'LL BE DRIVEN AWAY :mad:
Oh please do my unit next...Please Please... How much are you charging how long will it take... J/K
Yes I agree with Stephen please give him a break he is working his but off here and he is just getting started in the oc community. We dont want to push him over the edge and hit him with 1000 questions and then second quess them.. Dont knock it until you tried it!
Good luck cryo and please take your time and dont feel pressured in any way. You have just given alot of our members new hope for phase change (well at least for auto-cascades) and they are really excited:)
Exactly my initial reaction...I'm sure everyone was thinking that. That's how good this autocascade is....cryo-tek, you're awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by njkid32
What he's brought to the table is a wealth of knowledge that is really gonna bring autocascades to the next level for everyone if we sit back and listen to what he has to say. :)
not if everyone keeps badgering him. hopefully people will lay off on the questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vapor
Really impressive stuff going on here, incredible work guys! As Fugger said; wanna see it in action :)
Seems to me he knows what he's doing and has the knowledge to go along with it. Do you have a -150° unit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
Really amazing stuff cryo :toast:
It's too cold for most CPU's but it's very interesting to see regardless.
I'm not trying to step on toes; little systems are not in the business plan.
Mr. Missimer taught me the Autocascade and I want to pass on his legacy
The systems that I propose you build are based on patent 3,768,273 held by Missimer. This patent has expired so we won’t be meeting in jail. Did I drop the soap?:D They are also much easer to build. I’m working on more information but it takes time and I do need to work for a living. Right now at work I have a system that was built wrong but works better than the rest. I can't find what's deferent and I’m going crazy looking.
For me this is just fun stuff. Baby cascades.
Are we still going to have fun?:confused:
i think most of us are already just reading this :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
oh yes this is fun, problem is i have a boring job :(Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
ill have more fun when i can find r14 at decent prices :D
Wow, I would love to see an autocascade that you built yourself cryo-tek.
Ummm ummm ummm WOWOWOWOW! :eek:
Dude wow... I want a setup like this holy cow... That is so insane on a single 1hp compressor.
Cryo-Tek, you are GOD!
Sorry, if I show you my cascade I’d have to freeze you. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by moddolicous
You can't and won't :p: j/k....Really, the stuff he builds is extraordinary, but we have to keep this part of his life separate from his business. It's better for Cryo to stay somewhat anonymous so that any *unecessary* attention isn't brought upon him ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by moddolicous
BTW, the last person Cryo showed his cascades to is in that box :p: Wait...that was me :wth:Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
Somebody call cold ice to try R14 and argon in his 3rd stage, methane in his 4th stage and we can see wonders again.
You better blieve it, we are havin fun Lord Cryo....show us the way.:banana:Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
OT: Anyone notice the reply:view ratio on this thread? It's gotta be some kinda record :p:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1057/views5dj.jpg
From the 3 stage autoc diagram u post s7e9h3n, The liquid refrigerant from the evap is directly dump back to the last stage of the autocascade mixed with 2nd stage condensate. From the third stage it is dumped back to 2nd stage, mixed with 1st stage condensate. And at the last, refrigerant from the 1st stage is mixed with condensate from the Aux condensor before returning through the aux condensor to the compressor.
Is this reverse flow correct?
I did notice that and still can't believe how simple it is and efficient it is not to waste suction return in reverse cascading order to help each stage... I think you are right on the money. (counter flow helps heat transfer as well as gradient of temperature being suction from evap will be colder than discharge into metering for that phase and so on...) This probably is one of key things on making it run smooth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx
And not to forget, When the suction returns from the evap it has a certain amount of heat to it so by mixing it with cold refrigerant, it will not only strip away the heat but still maintain a fairly cold temperature all the up to the aux condensor where it will pick up heat again before returning to the compressor. So the returning refrigerant is actually still cool enough to prevent compressor failure.
The phase seperators in cyrotek autocascades are actually insulated from the environment, Is this to prevent it from absorbing extra heat?
For how long??Quote:
Originally Posted by cryo-tek
LOL! :clap: :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by moddolicous
Well even with heat lamps I think it will take awhile:)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9...enlarge7dz.jpg
I knew that was what was in the cardboard box! Where did you get that pic? LOL.....Quote:
Originally Posted by njkid32
here a pic of his auto, it was his first post.
So far there not a single piece of info in this thread.
I thought there was :confused: What did you want to know about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Ok I'll call it : BULL:banana::banana::banana::banana: THREAD are you going to tell these guys a cryo expert uses fiberglass insulation LOL fiberglass gets wet !!!!! cause condensation can pass thru it, once wet it has no insulation value.
we got a 150 c member who's unit we did not see,?????? nor explained how it was done??????????? or have been verified????? by others reproducing the result???? or even pictured the said unit?????? Can the results be reproduced by other members to verify ????? now we have a Mystery cryo-man who's "identy can't be reveiled" need to keep it seperate s7e states.
only info thats been around for many many years has been shown.
I'm going to quit while I'm way ahead.
Wdrzal I know your feeling like your territory is being taken over but relax dude, He EXPLAINED this all ready HE uses the fibre FOR TESTING.
Realax the hype will setle down and you'll all get your share of the spot light.
FYI I have friends who work in industry that can make the controllers here look like play toys, but due to his work he'd be fired in an instant if he even mentioned his name on here, so I can easily see cryo's plausible situation.
I've noticed a marked change in your behivior since this thread was started.
ya not posting!!!!! sitting back and laughing to hard
I'm viewing with skeptatism too mate, it's healthy to view things with cuation, how ever there is no need to start making accusations with out a good reason, so far every thing he has said has been very consistant.
But you enjoy your luagh and I hope your right for your sake, other wise it's going to be rather emberassing no?
I am only going to say this one more time. Guys please stop and give him some time. If you dont have something nice to say then please dont say it. Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkid32
Agreed !!!!!!!! S7e9 is speaking for him , whats up with that?????
I just what to say a few guys have turned this forum into just a BS sestion anymore,
Well he is new to this community and is still learning (the computer side). Stephen is helping him a little on the computer side. Stephen doesnt know as much as you and many members about phase but he knows enough to get by. He isnt speaking for him he is just trying to help him out. So in a way he is vouging for him and thats good enough for me. So if he says he saw a unit doing -300c I would believe him he has never lied on these forums and dont think he ever will. So in short instead of giving cryo flack for his posts and trying to help out welcome him to XS with open arms!
Don't make so much fuss, is it fishy? yeah, so in the imortal words of Perkam, make like a sceptic and...
Quote:
Originally Posted by perkam
Hi wdrzal, This picture is of a 2 stage system I built for a cryo treating project. It only does -110c. The -163c was done with a Polycold unit that I tweeked. It’s a 3 stage system with 1 stage of full separation and 2 stages of partial separation. If you follow through the threads you will see that I’m not giving instructions on how to build, I’m giving principals and trying to lead people to the understanding of what to build. Did you see the lights come on when the suction return flow was figured out? This is what teaching is about !! You don’t give them the answer, you give them the tools to find the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
If you really need to know who I am send me an email with your information.
Make that a PM. "my bad". (I hate that, my kid uses it!)
I have been asking for pictures, along with pythogoras and others, explanations were alson asked for. no answeres where given,
you don't follow someone blindly??? Do ya?
"at least","throw me a bone" of info