Printable View
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanAndreevich
look at the size of that die...
125 million transistors. Im excited... graphics have gotten great.. AI has improved, but the game enviroment has stated pretty much non-interactive.
this could be a great change.
I'd love to see HL2 physics meet Ageia physx for a beautiful marriage...that would be amazing.
You'd love to see Havok and Ageia together? :p The reason Ageia (hardware accel) looks more promising than ever before is because it's not Havok (software accel). I think you meant to say you wish Havok supported hardware acceleration. Even then, that means more ragdolls being thrown around - no environmental distruction - because Source doesn't support it.
have you heard of HavokFX? which NVidia is already picking up
http://www.havok.com/content/view/187/77/
That Novodex Rocket demo is pretty cool. Most of the demos fly at 1000+ FPS on the Conroe except the big bang.
Big bang drags the Conroe down as well.
Only 1000FPS? This thing is outdated already!
Seriously though, I can't wait until more games support it. The upcoming games that do though should blow our pants off.
I cant wait for nV and ATi to get into the phsyics battle full force.
I could use an R600 for graphics and my "old" X1600XT for physics ;)
There are two types of physics: effects- and gameplay-physics. Havok FX basically lets the CPU continue doing gameplay-physics while the GPU takes off some of the workload to do effect-physics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra
Can you give us an example of "effects-physics" and "gameplay-physics" ?
As far as I understand the AGEIA way uses a randomized calculation to make everything "realistic" which is going to produce a different result for everyone.
IE: I fire a rocket at a pile of rubble in a game. On my screen a cinder block may go flying by harmlessly while on the screens of other people they may be struck by the cinder block, or the cinder block may hit a switch which releases a wrecking ball which smashes another player through a brick wall....
Certainly.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
-sourceQuote:
Q: Will a GPU physics solution be able to do both gameplay and effects physics?
A: No, this is a common misconception. A GPU can only do effects physics, meaning that it will not affect the environment with things like flying shrapnel. You will see the shrapnel, but it won't be able to hit players, go through wall, deform the terrain...etc.
In other words, with GPU-accelerated physics if you were to shoot a rocket at the ground, the CPU would calculate the reconstruct the crater the explosion created but the GPU would only do the chunks of dirt flying around. A PPU would do both, probably quicker too.
-edit- If the chunks of ground are intended to affect gameplay, ie fly off and potentially kill someone then that would be considered gameplay-physics. The GPU would have done nothing to contribute in this situation as far as physics go. :)
Think about it: Let's imagine TES:Oblivion with a single 7900GT. A 7900GT is fast, but it's a different story with Oblivion as it is. Now imagine Oblivion with gameplay-physics supported. So you are already running a modest ~20-40fps at highest detail and everything, now they want that card that's not even doing that great to do more work: effect-physics. The CPU would continue doing what's already in the game, but the GPU would just do more, bringing the fps down. Now with a PPU, the CPU doesn't work on physics as much, and the GPU continues doing what it already is doing. The PPU would just allow another element to be added to the game without compromising.
It's similar to a sound card. Normally, going from disabled sound to full surround audio, you lose performance, a lot depending on the quality and quantity sounds, sources, channels, etc. At least on onboard sound, anyway. With a good enough sound card, the difference is near nothing.
Havok does the same thing. Remember the end of Max Payne 2? ATM, Counter-Strike only supports effect-physics online. You shoot a guy and lands in a funny position and take a screenshot, it's different for everyone. Besides, if they do include gameplay-physics, it would have to be universally the same for each person because it affects gameplay. When/if they do include it, it would only be random with respect to each event, not individually random per person.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
-sourceQuote:
Q: Will a GPU physics solution be able to do both gameplay and effects physics?
A: No, this is a common misconception. A GPU can only do effects physics, meaning that it will not affect the environment with things like flying shrapnel. You will see the shrapnel, but it won't be able to hit players, go through wall, deform the terrain...etc.
Another good example: say you have a gun that shoots actual bullets in a game (unlike games like UT2k4 where the machine gun's bullets hit instantly when fired). In GPU acceleration, the GPU would do the shells that fall and bounce on the floor below, while the shots fired that kill and damage walls is done through the CPU. A PPU would do both! :)
If this would help my oblivion performance, id be right on it...
But im sure it does nothing as all the rest of the posts have shown..
falling cubes has been only conclusive evidence so far for me..
oh and kabooming dumpsters..
city of vilians supports A PPu and its out now
Everything I've mentioned is if if they supported both GPU and PPU acceleration, which may not happen on the same game together for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosophy
you didnt explain why they can only do "effects-physics" though, you just told us its the only way they can do it.
EDIT
just so you dont have to tell us: its because of how the physics API's are programmed, not because GPU's "cant do it".
That demo is so cool!Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative Design
Does it support the Physx tho?
ive read somewhere aegis is workin with havok so they will use their API someone search for havok and aegis...
damn now i want to buy one of these... anyone knows where i can buy one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by leviathan18
i am going to try and do an XS group buy... i might be able to get a lot of them within the next week or so, all OEM.
Ill update later.
Seems really interesting.
If I were Ageia, I'd male a PCIe x1 version, and have it run in a 5-1/4" bay with a cable to the PCIe slot. Figuring the space on the motherboard is getting TIGHT, especially for SLI/CFire hardcore users that would be flocking to add a Physix card.
^ hehe, interesting idea. I too am low on available slots, tv tuner, souncard, sli in the future so that would be perfect.
thats a pretty interesting idea. I wonder, can they do that? I mean, i've never seen anything that does that, but is it possible? what type of interconnect would run between the part that plugs into the slow and the connector in the normal 5 1/4 bay? Would latency introduced by lengthening the interconnect be an issue? it seems like a good idea though, as you could use that 1x slot hidden under your videocards (or even just under any 1 dual slot cooling solution card). Have you seen thermaltakes sli power supply that mounts in the 5 1/4 bay? it kind of reminds me of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leviathan18
I just got another one, you have PM.
okay, get a list of tests you would like me to run... im ageia ready again.
Tests, plural? The only thing that supports it is the tiny demo that comes with the driver. Even the hardware accelerated physics test in 3DMark06 shouldn't be affected because it's done throught he GPU.
haha, well if anyone comes across anything... ill play with itQuote:
Originally Posted by ULJarad
Just to remain on the open minded side of things, I wouldn't take advice on what ATI and Nvidia GPUs can or can't do from Ageia ;)
Yeah, one of the cool things about PCIe is the ability to handle things like putting the board out on the end of a ribbon cable.
You could have your X1900 on the end of a cable too, would barely notice the difference, though the power lines need to be beefier than the signal lines.
But cabling was anticipated in the spec.
One little product idea Ive been thinking about, is a PCI slot cage...5 PCI slots... that sits seperate from the motherboard and connects via a PCIe x2 connection on a cable. Think of a double wide case, with a second "card cage" section with plenty of PCI slots for tuners, sound, etc, that plugs into a good SLI motherboard's x2 connector. Slot expansion is one of the powerful abilities open to the industry now with PCIe.
Stuff like that exists now, but its industrial and costs a :banana::banana::banana::banana:load. This should really only retail for $49-ish.
I still wonder what happens with "gameplay-physics" when gaming online. What if I don't have a PPU and the guy that shoots me a rocket has it. The explosion chuncks should kill me in his comp, and I suddenly fall dead? :D
And instead, what if I shoot the same rocket? Does he die but I don't see how?
That would end in 2 scenarios:
1. Non-PPU gamers see strange things happening
2. PPU gamers has an unfair advantage!
And maybe someone says "It's intended for offline games"... that's a poor solution to the problem :)
think back to when gpu started games became coded for them and those that didnt have the hardware had to run in software mode and the cpu worked it out it will be the same with ppu games those of us that dont have a ppu will run in software mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by mursaat
Yes but a GPU upgrade made things look better or smoother. Yes it made a difference where software FPS were too low to even aim, but didn't involved any physical elements like particles and chunks from explosions that can collision with your "body" and kill you.
Never saw a frag because of 200FPS 16xHQAA :D:D:D
I think this has been said before, isn't this like foilage in farcry? Online players with higher settings have denser foilage and can't see players which have lower display settings. I believe that was fixed server side, making sure each player plays at the same settings? Im not sure, not such an online gamer but it would make sence.
Which would mean the answer will stay it's an offline solution untill it get's so integrated everyone will have it. I say this won't be released for online gaming, and if it does the extra eyecandy won't influence gameplay. I think pieces off that rocket might fly straight through players without actually hitting it ;)
I only know about Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, which comes out in less than two weeks (May 5th) and is certainly an online multiplayer fps. If you read the post at the top of this link http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/ind...ic=32145&st=15 you will see BoGRIN (head developer of the game) talking about the recent ageia footage from thier website comparing the ppu version with the non-ppu version, he clearly states that with or without the ppu, people wont be killed easier. Unfortunately he doesnt go into technical detail about it but i guess theres no reason he would lie, and i guess the technical aspects will be revealed soon enough. I'm sure the developers making these games that have support for the ppu will have thought of all the possible concerns and problems that could arise from this tech. If it's good enough for UT2K7 (one of the biggest online shooters there is) then i'm sure it will be all good.Quote:
Originally Posted by mursaat
Im glad to see UT2K7 getting it, that means the next rev of AArmy will have the Physix built in waaaaaawhooooo!
Ghost Recon demo is out. Put that card to good use!
sweet!
It would result in the same scene. One person would have it done through their CPU (as all physics have until now) and the other on the PPU. Check out Garry's Mod.Quote:
Originally Posted by mursaat
From the looks of it, everything is an effect. After you shoot someone dead, they fall and cannot affect anyone anymore. Shooting a garbage can makes everything fly around but not harm anyone. The projectile shot from the grenade launcher is an animation (nothing affects its path until it hits something and explodes, only gravity).Quote:
Originally Posted by del_fuego
ghost recon demo with ppu enabled
http://www.filecloud.com/
http://www.fileshack.com/
http://www.fileplanet.com/
Aw you beat me to it! i was going to post that:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by KoukiFC3S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle
SWEET!
Downloading now
ugg, this blows... i cant find a fast server
yahoo needs to list it up on their server, videogames.yahoo.com is the best
edit: downloading from UK oddly enough it is maxing out my 6mbit connection
Took me 2 hours to get it....I'll play it later.
I wish someone had a physix card we could test *sigh* ;)
sorry, i was busy playing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative Design
It is pretty cool, though the little cubes that pop up from the ground get annoying after awhile.
Probably the coolest part is when the enemy is shooting at you, you see the debris falling all around you, definitely feels more realistic.
Nice addition to your GPU, though I dont think it is worth buying one at this point until more games support it.
Any chance of a few screen dumps maybe a short vid showing us the stuff you talk about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Acid-
yup
just give me an hoour
Please do benchies in GRAW and take some vids with fraps if possible. :)
updates irev?????
woot! sounds good irev keep us updated :)
P.S do you notice any speeds up or slow downs? with and without the card.
thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by leviathan18
workin on it!
playing graw, and playing with my new samsung UCCC memory
Ill try to get some screen shots of CPU load w/ no ageia, and CPU load w/ ageia, etc.
I would really like to see the screen shots or better a small vid with and without the card :D
Please blow up some trucks for us!
okay, updated with a video, check the first post.
I tried to get a good idea of CPU usage, but this game doesnt support dual-core CPU.. it only hovered around 50% the entire time.
Looks like it's not worth it until more games come out with support... Here it's really easy to get it, just order from overclockers.uk :P
Any news on the overclock ?
Actually GP also doesn`t support it - yet. I didn`t see anything that my cpu couldn`t render by itself in that video. And game surely is single threaded.
thanks for the vid!
You mean in software renderer right? because with D3D, my 165 and X1900XTX 730/855 almost every demo is around 2000FPS. Haven't tried with soft renderer.Quote:
Originally Posted by FUGGER
For Novodex Rocket? The only hardware acceleration I can find on it is for vertex processing, not physics acceleration.Quote:
Originally Posted by mursaat
Thanks for the vid irev :)
looks good,I can't wait till these things are reviewed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative Design
i wish i had a better test config, but i dont.
Hopefully all the good will come with the new unreal engine. I think this is just a tease.
Is there a FPS test for GRAW?
All games should have built in FPS tests easier to access as demo downloads.
Heres a before and after clip of GRAW http://physx.ageia.com/sbs_graw.swf
I'm sure many have seen this before though.
And go here http://personal.inet.fi/atk/kjh2348fs/ageia_physx.html for more info.
Yes something like this were great. I´ve made two vids of exploding vehicles without the PhysX card, it were nice when someone could make a similar vid with the PhysX card.
http://rapidshare.de/files/19180798/GRAW1.wmv.html (WMV 30sec 8MB)
http://rapidshare.de/files/19180964/GRAW2.wmv.html (WMV 30sec 8MB)
It doesn't seem that GRAW benefits from the physx card that much. The debris do not even stay on the ground for long.
I noticed I get the same debris, falling leaves etc without a physics card and the game runs pretty fast without it too. I don't think it really offers much either.
Can anyone verify if GRAW is dual-core optomized? Thanks.
It's not. The cpu usage hovers around 50% while playing.
When does GRAW come out? Because I already have the full version...I just want one of these cards
How are you people getting the full version? It doesn't come out until May 5th
We are, how you say... ah yes, le pwnt.
I love AAO :)Quote:
Originally Posted by uwackme
].[HeAdHuNtER @ ur service :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester FPS
Bit torrent :(
He would be correct. I thought it was out already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative Design
The game is hard. I am not use to this game style...its a more realistic feel than what I am use to.
I am a Day of Defeat: Source guy and it is a big difference from that. Controlling a squad and shooting people is hard.
Hmm nevermind, I wrote that from work and I was remembering something about software renderer, like the CPU doing all the work but now I check it's only the Vertex...Quote:
Originally Posted by ULJarad
I couldn't agree with you more, I am finding it hard too. To be honest I have no real clue what I'm doing lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by ugp
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoukiFC3S
Most games take 99% of my CPU on my single core if its 50% then that should mean its dual optimized,or maybe I'm wrong.
I think it's the opposite. If it were dual optimized the usage would go higher than 50%. 50% x 2 cores = 99,9%, so typical single core usage :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative Design
That's incorrect. The CPU distributes the task of the game among the two cores (50/50). If you were to open up another program in the background, one core would take on the task of the game and the other core would take on the new program.Quote:
Originally Posted by mursaat
how many fps does the ageia box demo that comes with the drivers get? Tested it on a P3 866 @ 1040 with 512mb ram at 3-3-3-7 and an X800XL.. seemed to be 100fps+ easily?
Hmm then why if you open only one prime95 instance you get 50% on each core instead 100% in one and 0% in the second?
I'm not totally sure and not being sarcastic ;) This thing confuses me since my first DC :D
Wouldn't an optimized game use 100% (or at least more than exact 50%) on EACH core?
Because the cpu is distributing the workload. You're not priming right if you're doing it this way, get sp2004 and make sure you open up two instances and set CPU: 0 and CPU: 1 in each opened application. Make sure "No Affinity" is unchecked. Then look at each cpu, they should be at 100% utilization each.Quote:
Originally Posted by mursaat
I'm not sure what you consider an optimized game, but the way dual core works is distributed workload. So in any single application, it's common that both core's are only utilizing 50% processing power.Quote:
Originally Posted by mursaat
what he means is if its coded for DC then you would see higher than 50% because it would be utilizing more than 50% of each core.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester FPS
there is no game in existance that's coded for dual-core this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by kemist
Yes the CPU is distributing the workload because it's a single threaded applicationQuote:
Originally Posted by Jester FPS
Well then which is the difference between a DC optimized app and one that is not optimized? I mean, with a single threaded app you get 50% in each core, and with multi threaded app you get 50% in each core? don't think so :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester FPS
I think the case is this: A64 is designed to balance things between both cores so every other app (background services, newly opened apps) have enough CPU free to open like if there were 0% load. But if an app is multi-threaded, it means you have 2 (or more) processes [threads] that can load the 100% of each core. The problem is so far, I haven't checked usage in Task Manager when running a multi threaded app. Apart from 3dk06 which apps are SMP?
/end of OT, sorry
In dual core games like Quake 4 after the patch it's not uncommon to see both cores working at 80% or more each.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/zenkifc/q4.jpg
i can load up both cores with prime95 and do the ageia demo, and it works just the same.
I agree, if there is lots of load on the CPU from just running the game, then I see ageia being useful.
Hey man if you want we can meet up in a server online and play and learn how to kill each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by cantankerous
I had trouble controlling my squad lol...
Hey that sounds good actually. I wouldn't mind getting more into this game as I am sure it will be enjoyable once the frustration of being a noob goes away. Let me know what you have in mind and when.
Here is a preview with some GRAW vids
http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=245
It seems to me at present you can have more eye candy than normal but with some trade off in fps. Whether that is good enough to make you want to spend a lot of money that might be better put towards a better cpu or gpu is an interesting dilemma. Ati and nvidia are both talking about using second gpu's for physics and so you have to wonder whether this hardware solution can get enough market share to get more games to support it. Seems like a catch -22 situation to me. We all know Ati and nvidia push the software people money and expertise for their own chips so you'd imagine they'd do the same for physics as well.
It seems a difficult market to break into to me, especially at $200+
Regards
Andy
Ageia is about to post a new driver. I have been in contact with them and we can expect PCMark and GRAW performance issues to be resolved.
I am working on getting Ageia maufacture support here.
Sounds great...do you know when we as a consumer will be able to obtain one?Quote:
Originally Posted by FUGGER
That is excellent news Fugger. Thank you ever so much for taking the initiative in getting this sorted. I sure hope it really is a driver issue and not the hardware falling short. I would love to see this thing succeed, I guess this new driver will tell all. Please keep us informed.
Wont be buying one until they start using standard GPU mounting so i can WC it :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by creidiki
Even if water cooling it will provide no performance?:nono:
These Agiea cards have same mounting as X1900/7900GT so water cooling stuff fits.
Working still on obtaining the overclocking utility.
128MB and 256MB versions perform exactly the same currently, card only uses 128MB. This is being fixed.
where to buy card in Europe? anyone know? :-)
@Fugger
Since its going to take long before we start to see games that support Ageia and really take advantage of it, do you think Ageia could add a special driver that splits physics calculations on current games? Even if its not taking full advantage of the PPU since it may be in software mod, it will help a lot if the physics calculations are not loaded on the whole system.
If its possible to split the physics calculations from Half Life 2's Havok physics so its just calculated by the PPU isntead of the whole system by software mod, then moders and mappers can take advantage of the physics early by putting maps with a lot of physics meches or destructible objects.
For example, in Garry's mod it would help a lot, since Ive tryed spawning millions of watermelons and then I blow them up with barrels and explosives and my system cant process all that without lagging a bit. Would be nice to see those huge exploutions without lag ;)
Another thing they could do while PhysX ready games release is to split certain calculations to the PPU like a Dual-core. In Oblivion, it would help a lot if the PPU could calculate the grass and foilage and the physics while the CPU calculates AI and movements and other stuff, and the GPU calculates the 3D stuff...
I think a driver that splits physics would have to be on a game to game basis.And that would take ages to make and would require it to modidy the game its changing as all games have different physics engines.
Ageia cards will be compatible with havoc engines in the future though.
Well we can only hope developers take this seriously and start releasing PPU (and DC) patches for their games instead leaving Ageia alone with all this work.
may be the problem is because the games still don't dupport the Ageia PhysX?
may be after the UT07 will come out we will see some real performance from the PhysX card?
Yea, most of the physics in GRAW are still calculated by the CPU.
All the PPU does in it is add more debris, which don't even look good.
They do, identical mounting holes as GeForce 4 cards :)Quote:
Originally Posted by creidiki
Nick
Just bought a 128MB version, should be here Monday or Tuesday. Now, where is Ghost Recon?