Thx :toast:
Now I'm waiting for the oil and for the R14 and the Methane.
Printable View
Thx :toast:
Now I'm waiting for the oil and for the R14 and the Methane.
Hey, its coming along VERY VERY nicely....your skill is up there with the best...Quick question tho, what have you decided on on the 3rd and fourth stages for gasses? I have heard R14, which you are getting the special oil for, methane, and Argon? Are you blending R14 and methane to condense argon? Keep it up can't wait to see final results!
Brandon
another long absence but, you could mix like 5-15% r134a to reduce the needed pressure [it isnt illeagal if you dont have anyone watching you]
and the mix [r134a to argon] for a 2- stage would be between 20 to 80, or to 40 to 60 [just in case anybody wanted to know]
tha argon was my back-up suggestion if the methane/r-14 dont work out
I will use R14 for the third and R50 for the fourth stage. You can't condense Argon with R14. You would need at least five stages, I don't think such a unit is economical.
Why mixing R134a and Argon? I think it'S a myth that you can condense this mixture in a 2 stage cascade.
Are you going to blend the Methane? I thought Chilly had capacity problems with staright methane....just curious, GL man!
Fhqwhgads6680 care to read the thread please:)
I...did....I was just curious how he is going to get around capacity if running straight methane cause I know people had problems with capacity, such as chilly....And I never saw mentioned what he decided on for the 3rd and 4th stage gasses...so I asked...I don't understand what your problem is....
Edit: I just went through the thread AGAIN and I did not see ANYWHERE that he says for sure what gases he was using...I knew R-14 was in the mix cause of all the discussion about the oil issue. I also saw him mention Methane,and also Argon was mention a few times, and I never saw Cold_ice say he was or wasn't using argon....but I was just asking for a conformation...What the heck is the problem for asking for a conformation...I've been Nothing but encouraging in this thread...
Sorry for this minor tangent Cold_Ice. Maybe now we can get back to something constructive such as watching you build this amazing piece of art!!
R08b + R1150 blend in the 1st stageQuote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
R14 + R50 in the 2nd stage.
R508b will boil at -87C and the suction line will condence the R1150.
R14 will be condenced by the R1150 at a decent pressure and then condence the R50 :)
it'll only cool a small load and you need some more gases to stop oil problems put it IS possible. manufactures have single compressor cascades that go all the way down to -200C.
-200C, wow, i cant wait when someone rly xtreme wants to try to get as close to absolute 0 as possible.
:up: cold_ice really rocks
Don't get me wrong, but this won't work. How you want to condense R508b and R1150 in a first stage? Sorry I don't get it how this should work.Quote:
Originally Posted by zabomb4163
Furthermore I'm not a friend of blending gasses without using your brain, maybe if you're lucky you see low no load temperatures, but the pressure will skyrocket and the temps will rise at load.
A cascade with only one compressor is a whole other story, this is an autocascade. This is not comparable with the unit I build here.
In my opinion Argon in the fourth stage is a nono.
Gasses I will use: R507/R1150/R14/R50Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhqwhgads6680
just ask for help man!:rolleyes:
good luck on!!!
regards,
q
cold_ice, what final temp are you trying to achieve with this monster unit? I imagine -200*c is feasable eh?
I'm realistic, so I want to achieve -160 to -170° unloaded. -200 no way :D
Nice build there Cold Ice:toast:
it would be funny to put the simple air in the last stageQuote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
however plz tell me the gasses of every stage;)
Look 4 posts above yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
didn't he?
Edit: cold_ice got here too fast while i was catching up on the thread!
lol i stopped the posting while i've noticed the response but it was too late..
holy crap..do you have to work in HVAC to get access to these gasses? I don't even know where to acquire r134a as a consumer/hobbyist
No, I'm able to get these gasses as a private person.
It depends on where you are at really. And type of vendor you deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenogias
Do you have any idea of when you will be up and running with this monster?
I don't know really.Must wait for the oil and for the gases. Furthermore I'm abroad for a week next Thursday. Have to wait for some other parts too.
Holy Crap!!!!!!!
I can't flippin' WAIT to see the results of the third stage, never mind the fourth.
cold_ice, you are running the very very thin line between being a genious and being insane, and you have my respect, lol. :worship:
any updates?
q
cold_ice is in Great Britain (I think London) right now! ^^ ;)
He will return to Asutria on 9th I think so no updates yet! :D ;)
:worship: Please update!
soon, he is on holidays at the moment
@ Nanometer:
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 404Power
way to spam 2nd post in a row with the same wortless thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 404Power
Relax, are you somehow afraid that by posting not-all-that-informative posts that he will catch up to your postcount and by doing so deflate your ego?!Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Any contributions made on forums usually arrise from the OC-ers need to share knowledge though some times it is not exactly rocket science getting posted, though it is repetative even irrelevant at times, it is a part of the living forum. Personally, i would much rather have posts like 404's which were atleast written with good humor, than posts of envy, hatred or even a dead forum...
Oh, and cold_ice its the 10th by my watch we better start seeing some updates...:toast:
Thanks
[ZIZI]
Waiting for some new parts, the gases and for the special oil. Be patient, I hope there will be an update next week.
Today I changed the SC18CLX from the second stage for a new SC21CLX. I will use the SC18CLX in the third stage. Furthermore I changed the desuperheater for a new, and bigger one. This one will be used for all 3 stages. The receiver will bes used as expansion tanks for the third and fourth stage.
I have already ordered the Methane, I hope I will get a good offer for the Tetrafluormethane next week.
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/74.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/75.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/76.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/77.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/78.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/79.jpg
No expansion tank for the second stage? You'll need to put in a lot of ethylene I think.
You might be right. I have a very big receiver here (I think it has 3l), when I need one I can use this one.
just remember that you shouldn't charge while the system is running.
3lt should be nice, i use 3.7 lt for my cascades second stage and my static is 5bar :)Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
niiiiice...... :bows:
This thing is gonna be friggen insane. When are you going to have that seperate circuit breaker installed? :D
could someone expain the use of an expansion tank in detail? What's the profit on having more gas stored in a tank doing nothing??
what is bp of tetrafloromethane?
which is for forth stage methane or tetrafloro?
Expansion tank is used to decrease static pressure in unit when you use high pressure refrigerant. ET has very big capacity, so there is place for the refrigerant to expand (you have extra volume in the system, that allows to reduce static pressure).Quote:
Originally Posted by GuuZ
Of course, it`s attached to suction line.
is it same as a suction line accumulator?
Suction line accumulator is smaller than expansion tank will be, and ET should be connected by this way (not like accumulator):
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7889/et23pz.jpg
One question, what size of captube and what lenght should be used to connect the expansion tank to the suction line?
Tetrafluormethane is R14, so the boiling point is about -128°
@cold_ice - You can use 0,9mm cap tube or 2,3mm, it will be ok :) Lenght...I don`t think so that it does matter, I used ~20cm of 0,8mm in my cascade and it worked well.
yeap, i doesn't really matter. but i would use 1/4" or 3/8" for a faster startup as i have to wait about 3-4 mins untill all the gas gets sucked out of my expansion tank through the 0.9mm cap tubeQuote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
Ok thx. Maybe I will try 1/4" or really big captube.
I would rather go with piece of captube. It reduces oil migration and it will reduce the shock to the higher stages when you turn the compressor on. When you pump 3 liter of pressurised ethylene into the HX in 1/2 a second the high stage probably gets into trouble. Don't understimate the amount of ethylene in this system.
I never thought about that, I will follow that advice.
I only see 1/4" expantion tubing on the large 30hp chambers. Even the small 7.5hp chambers use a BC4 captube 3ft long.
What is BC4 in mm or in inch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
According to this page BC4 is 0.064" ~ 0.16mm, sounds nice
http://www.minvalco.com/inv/sup.htm
In Canada Yes sadly you doQuote:
Originally Posted by Xenogias
The Gasses we can easily get as Hobbiests and consumers are :
R-290 (Propane)
R-600a (IsoButane)
R-134a (TetraflouroEthan (It is in the air dusters and freeze it spays, usualy 100% pur, it is just a matter of geting it out the can as a solid flow of liquid thats the tricky part))
There are probly some more from welding shops.
BTW awsom unit indeed! add 2 or more stages and make liquid Helium!
I have an air duster with 402a!:D not even gonna bother to try and get it out thoQuote:
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
Found a big receiver today, it has a volume of 6 litres.
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/80.jpg
The black receivers have 1.6 litres
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/81.jpg
Can I use a suction accumulator as expansion tank as well? This one has a volume of 2.3 litres.
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/82.jpg
I don't know which expanions tank I should use in second/third/fourth stage. Maybe somebody can help me a bit here.
Draining out the old oil of the SC18
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/83.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/84.jpg
Today I started with the third stage. I have to wait for the special oil, until a finish this stage.
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/85.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/86.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/87.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/88.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/89.jpg
Looking strong :D cant wait to see it all fired up!
looks nice :)
the biggest expansion tank for the second stage, 3rd stage already contains less gas so can be smaller. 4th stage the "smallest".
you can use a suction line accumulator as an expansion tank, why not, the only function of an expansion tank is to create volume.
..................that is freakin' insane............and I like it alot. :D
I had a talk today, he said that the biggest tank is needed for the 4th stage, because methane is a very light gas, and I will need alot of it in the unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
looking really good
cant wait for it to get done.
what hardware will be frozen?
i hope a 955ES
maybe his P4 661 :)
I think a Yonah. But hardware isn't my main interest anymore. I like building units more than overclocking.
me too,
coz its not really practical to run even a single stage 24/7 coz of noise and electricity bill.
what are the 2 cap-tubes b/w oil sep and condenser for?
These two pipes connect the front-gauge and the pressure switch to the high side.
would it be suitable also connecting a gauge to the low-side. Or is it not of any value and will it only give extra work insulating the pipe towards the gauge?
I think you'll need about twice the volumetric amount of methane as ethylene in a 2 stage. the amount of ethylene in the system depends a bit on how you charge the system I geuss, flooded HX or just enough to hold the load. I think it will be more but we'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
There is a gauge for the lowside too.Quote:
Originally Posted by GuuZ
prolly have read the topic a zillion times... but haven't found what size tubing you use for that and if the tube is insulated..Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
2mm captube.
Any updates?
tnx
i dont understand y u guys dont run the cap lines inside the suction line at the and of it....
coldy u didnt replay to my pm, at least tell me yes no...
ciao
because you get more surface area by wrapping the cap tube around the outside of suction line.Quote:
Originally Posted by quintus
say you've got 80" of cap tube and 36" of suction line. if you run the cap tube internal, you get very good cooling on 36" of the cap tube, but if you wrap the cap tube around the outside of the suction line, you get almost as good cooling on basically the entire thing.
restriction my friend:)
And some times,,, with flexes... it could be pain in the arse to braze... As for surface area for wrapping around, I deem it even as inside means you get full cooling for the length. How much cap tube really touch when wrapped on suction? Besides, for remaining length, you can still wrap it around to rest of suction. The real problem would be depending on tubing size, restriction as JORT said, and another would be the fact design might be painful to maintain, change, etc. I've seen quite a few using cap tubing inside suction line working fine (bit oversized suction to begin with so restriction was not even an issue).
No updates yet. I'm still waiting for a better quote for the R14, because 500€ for 6kg is too much. I hope that I can make a good deal this week.
Good luck with your search. Any croygenic refrigerant seems to sell around price you are talking about after my exhaustive search... kind of bites. Probably due to lack of market size.Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
The methane is ready to pick up. Maybe it's worth a try to use a mix of R1150 and methane until I get the R14?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
did pc ice use straight r50 in his third stage??
worth a try
i always thought pc-ice used a r1150 / r50 blend in his third stage,Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
to get more capacity and lower his pressures.
check here http://www.teampuss.com/forums/viewt...hp?p=5781#5781
Quote:
pure r50 is a pain to work with.
but i made a mix of r50 and r1150 and this is what i got.thats all i did.. :)
I don't think r50 and r1150 make a azeotropic blend so I doubt if the load temp will be much better as pure r1150 but you can always try it out. hard to say.
Looks good, when it worked for pc_ice why shouldn't it work for me too. I will try it for sure. Hope I get as good temps as he had.
well I would definitly give it a try but I'm afraid that when you put a big load on it the methane will evaporate leaving the ethylene liquid in the HX (too cold for the ethylene to evaporate) but when there isn't enough methane in the system to remove the load the ethylene needs to deal with the remaining load but it only starts to evaporate at higher temperatures, so temps will rise untill that point is reached. So I think the load temps will only be slightly better as with pure ethylene, depending on the amount of methane you can put in the system.
Offcourse this isn't an 100% accurate discription of what is happening in the system, but that doesn't really matter for the proces I'm trying to discripe.
I hope you understand my reasoning.I would certainly try it out because I'm not sure of it blends or not. If it blends well you can completly forget this post. :lol: but when it doesn't blend I think what I discriped will happen.
A bit colder and you could use nitrogen in the final stage. lol.
(that was a joke for all you ppl who cant figure it out)
I hope it will blend, if not I have a problem as you described.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
I have a lot of time tomorrow, I have to finish some single stages, but there should be enough time for the cascade. So maybe new pics tomorrow.
I tried an ethylene/methane mix in my third stage too, idle temps decreased a bit, but it didn't hold any load correctly, I figure that unknown's explanation describes very well what happened to me :)
How much ethylene and methane (%) did you put into your 3rd stage? Did you use an expansion tank?
maybe your methan (not so pure) , no ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrou
Methane is here, but had no time to finish the 3rd stage.
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/90.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random.../4stage/91.jpg
Now imagine what would happen if you broke the neck off of a bottle like that :slap: :D
you'd have a very nice missile (I know hehehehe. (Only it wasn't methane))
Be very care full and FYI You NEVER should leave a cylinder free standing like that!
Chain n Restrain!
Think of it like a woman on her period, both are serious flaming missiles.
^Sig material right there :)
The metall-cap is on the bottle so I don't know about what you are worried about.
mmmm
yummmmyyyyyy
take time to finish it cause are stressed everywhere....
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice