Swiftech Apogee Discussion ( The Cat is Out of the Bag )

Got my apogee from sidewinder... and decided to strip it down this turkey day to see what it's all about.

This pic shows how they intend the water flow to head across the pins. Wonder how it would perform if you flipped it the other way... top->bottom instead of side->side as you see it now? More resistance maybe?
http://www.clandkp.com/orkan/apogee/apogee1.jpg

Here you can see it next to a poly top for a WW block. Roughly 2/3 the size.
http://www.clandkp.com/orkan/apogee/apogee2.jpg

Upon closer inspection... I found a sign of pure greed. Rushed manufacturing process. The pin array is riddled with metal shavings due to a rushed milling no doubt. I have circled a couple, but they are EVERYWHERE. They are not loose, but rather attached to the block/pins... normally caused when a saw blade, or machine control is pushing the mill bit too fast, and not allowing it to do its job.
http://www.clandkp.com/orkan/apogee/apogee3.jpg

I took a tiny flathead screwdriver and scraped out every single track between the pins. Took some time... but I wouldn't want this crap stuck in my radiator:
http://www.clandkp.com/orkan/apogee/apogee4.jpg

Its clean now, but that metal shavings crap really has me doubting my purchase. So if you purchased one of these, make sure to clean that sucker up before you stick it in your loop.
http://www.clandkp.com/orkan/apogee/apogee5.jpg

what are the dimensions of the pin grid?

Approx Pin array dimensions -

34mm x 34mm
1mm channel between the pins.

bah, its useless; can't even get a decent sized TEC on that.

bloody how big are TEC's normally?

About as big as the entire apogge block. ie: 2in X 2in

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer

bloody how big are TEC's normally?

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small ones (up to 172 watts) are 40x40mm, good ones are 50x50mm (up to 320 watts) or 62x62mm (437 watt beasts)

oh wow.. thats totaly useless for TEC's then.

do people still use tecs?

then again, i thought bong/evap coolers were out of fashion, then a bunch of threads popped up.

TECs are still great, especially when done right (ie multiple TECs in parallel)
bongs are kinda floating around; NoL did some major rezzing for bongs.

So not all blocks may have this effect right ? It should be a couple only or certain batches. Phew.

:slapass:

QC costs money and everyone understands the various places that line can end up. :slapass:

Hi I was just reading this because I have been slowly assembling a watercooling system on the cheap without sacrificing quality. I saw this block and I really wanted the Storm, but this was cheaper and they say it is better so I ordered it.

Currently the setup is:
Hydor L30 Pump
DD Black Ice Xtreme 120mm
Swiftech Apogee
Clearflex 1/2" ID Tubing
Connectors from Lowe's
Toolbox from Wal-Mart to house it in (this is external)

I'll have it together in like a week. I have an Operon 165 currently at 2.61ghz on air cooling.

One thing that interested me about this block is they say it was designed for dual core, that is why that area of pins is so large. I am too afraid to remove my IHS though...

Good thing I looked this up, those metal shavings SUCK, could they not just brush it off before it got to me!? Now I have to take it apart and hope I don't crack any plastic doing it to get those shavings out. Because it would NOT be sufficient just to run some water through it for like 10mins and shaking it, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewZorn

Hi I was just reading this because I have been slowly assembling a watercooling system on the cheap without sacrificing quality. I saw this block and I really wanted the Storm, but this was cheaper and they say it is better so I ordered it.

Currently the setup is:
Hydor L30 Pump
DD Black Ice Xtreme 120mm
Swiftech Apogee
Clearflex 1/2" ID Tubing
Connectors from Lowe's
Toolbox from Wal-Mart to house it in (this is external)

I'll have it together in like a week. I have an Operon 165 currently at 2.61ghz on air cooling.

One thing that interested me about this block is they say it was designed for dual core, that is why that area of pins is so large. I am too afraid to remove my IHS though...

Good thing I looked this up, those metal shavings SUCK, could they not just brush it off before it got to me!? Now I have to take it apart and hope I don't crack any plastic doing it to get those shavings out. Because it would NOT be sufficient just to run some water through it for like 10mins and shaking it, right?

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no, running water through it won't get them all out. You have to scrape them off. Just be careful not to over-tighten the screws when you put it back together, and you won't crack it.

OK

I had a hard time deciding between the WhiteWater, Storm, and Apogee... WW was cheapest, Storm most expensive, and no one can decide if Storm or Apogee is better so I decided on Apogee. Did I make the right decision?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkan

no, running water through it won't get them all out. You have to scrape them off. Just be careful not to over-tighten the screws when you put it back together, and you won't crack it.

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it's probably not that big a deal if you don't open up the block and just install it as-is. if there ARE any loose copper particles, i don't think it is likely they could cause damage or reduce the system's effectiveness/reliability

-Renamed Thread title for easier searching for members.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snowwie

it's probably not that big a deal if you don't open up the block and just install it as-is. if there ARE any loose copper particles, i don't think it is likely they could cause damage or reduce the system's effectiveness/reliability

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In that case... I have a few more metal shavings for your loop. ... because I sure as hell dont want them in mine.

Hooked up my apogee today... only to find that it has a cracked top, and leaked everywhere.

... so much for testing. :rolleyes:
http://www.clandkp.com/orkan/apogee/apogee_crack.jpg

damn, wth is swiftech thinkin

cracked as a result of your actions, or cracked on arrival?

*Looks* like it's cracked by the top of the washer in the bottom left corner also but hard to tell in the pic.

-pickles

definately not as a result of my actions. ... CHEAP molded top... is the problem.

wow, looks like swiftech did an unusually shoddy job with this block then... poor build quality, horrendous name, ugly block. doesn't bode well in my mind for testing results, but thats just conjecture.

I ordered a storm, just so I can do a side by side demonstration of what un-checked greed is capable of. Build quality is right out the window on this thing.

It has a better chance of leaking all over the place, than it does beating the storm or any other quality block.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

that's like saying that sand (particles) won't eat your pump housing thats flowing thourgh system, shot peened shant hurt proformance.

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well what i meant is that if they are big enough to cause damage then they would probably sink to the bottom of the resevior before it reached the pump. I don't think copper shavings (?) "float" or "travel" through your wc loop.

if your flowrates are low enough for copper shavings to fall out of the water, you probably have bigger concerns with your pump (or a stupidly huge res)
much less those of us who use T-Lines would be particularly in trouble. what i'd think most likely to happen is the copper shavings would get stuck in your rad, but could still easily wreak havoc elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkan

I ordered a storm, just so I can do a side by side demonstration of what un-checked greed is capable of. Build quality is right out the window on this thing.

It has a better chance of leaking all over the place, than it does beating the storm or any other quality block.

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I can tell you that the storm is a work of art :D No skimping there.

Looky here: http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=485&p=8

The Apogee setup only performs one degree celcius better than the Corsair cool setup. Here's what's funny about that from what I recall about the Corsair cool.

Corsair COOL:

MCW6000
MCR120 (single 120mm rad)
MCP350 pump
3/8" ID Tubing

Swiftech APEX Ultra:

Apogee
MCR220 (dual 120mm rad)
MCP655 (higher head pressure and flow rate than MCP350)
1/2" ID Tubing

The difference between the kits under load, 1c? Shouldn't the APEX Ultra done a lot better than that? I mean, it had twice the rad power and pumping power, and supposedly the best block ever made (Apogee) according to swiftech....so, why the anemic performance? Fishy... :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnJoY

Corsair COOL:

MCW6000
MCR120 (single 120mm rad)
MCP350 pump
3/8" ID Tubing

Swiftech APEX Ultra:

Apogee
MCR220 (dual 120mm rad)
MCP655 (higher head pressure and flow rate than MCP350)
1/2" ID Tubing

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The Apex ultra uses 7/16" ID tubing. Hard to believe there would only be a 1 degree difference in those two setups even if the Apogee is mediocre at best.

-pickles

nik-
Ever noticed you have mis-spelled 'Silverprop Fusion' in your sig?
Yours says 'Siverprop Fusion'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkan

I ordered a storm, just so I can do a side by side demonstration of what un-checked greed is capable of. Build quality is right out the window on this thing.

It has a better chance of leaking all over the place, than it does beating the storm or any other quality block.

---

Groupthink is a term coined by psychologist Irving Janis in 1972 to describe a process by which a group can make bad or irrational decisions. In a groupthink situation, each member of the group attempts to conform his or her opinions to what they believe to be the consensus of the group. In a general sense this seems to be a very rationalistic way to approach the situation. However this results in a situation in which the group ultimately agrees upon an action which each member might individually consider to be unwise (the risky shift).

Wonder if this happened to them...

Someone wondered if rotating the top part 90* would help it do better, since resistance is higher.

I am willing to try this to benefit everyone, but I want to get it right the first time since I don't want to have to change it back.

Higher resistance usually means the water 'capturing' more heat, right? Also I ONLY have a CPU block, so decreased flow does not matter too much to me, right? I'll be going res-pump-rad-cpu-res... Someone please advise me as to whether this is worth a try.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lv_dicedealer

nik-
Ever noticed you have mis-spelled 'Silverprop Fusion' in your sig?
Yours says 'Siverprop Fusion'

---

No but thanks, and fixed :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewZorn

Someone wondered if rotating the top part 90* would help it do better, since resistance is higher.

I am willing to try this to benefit everyone, but I want to get it right the first time since I don't want to have to change it back.

Higher resistance usually means the water 'capturing' more heat, right? Also I ONLY have a CPU block, so decreased flow does not matter too much to me, right? I'll be going res-pump-rad-cpu-res... Someone please advise me as to whether this is worth a try.

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I'd certainly be interested in those results. No idea if it's worth trying or not though.

-pickles

well i mean we know how it works so it just comes down to thermal properties or something... if there is more resistance, does that mean more absorbtion of heat? if so, i dont think the slowdown of the water will matter much in my system, i only have CPU block and a hydor l30 pump which i understand is pretty good

I switched the base-plate around.

The flow was reduced by about 1/4. No noticeable reduction in temps.

Keep in mind these temps are as being reported by Everest. I don't have a good temp sensor.

do you like it? even if it isnt as good as the storm, is it the best thing for <=$50?

After re-mounting and switching the orientation of the base-plate 4 times:

1) Temps are higher with the base-plate switched. On the order of 1-2c
2) Flow is reduced significantly. At least 1/3rd of the flow rate.

Since this is not an impingement block, it relies on flowrate. With the baseplate switched around, the lower flow gives higher temps.

The block gives some good cooling... no doubt there. But I'm still stuck on the poor manufacturing quality I've seen so far.

This week, my Storm, and MP-05 blocks should be here. Then I'll have something more to compare it to.

For a multi-block system, I really like the flowrate that this thing allows... further testing will tell more.

i was thinking about the MP05 Pro as well. neglecting build quality, which do you think performs better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnJoY

The difference between the kits under load, 1c? Shouldn't the APEX Ultra done a lot better than that? I mean, it had twice the rad power and pumping power, and supposedly the best block ever made (Apogee) according to swiftech....so, why the anemic performance? Fishy... :rolleyes:

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I can't find any info on the testbed used. With just an 3200+ at default speeds and no other components in the loop, the differences would be pretty small. If it was a heavily overclocked X2 it could be a different story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewZorn

i was thinking about the MP05 Pro as well. neglecting build quality, which do you think performs better?

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My money is on the MP-05.

i feel sick sitting here trying to decide. i might just leave my order for the apogee unmodified. i just dont want it to BREAK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkan

For a multi-block system, I really like the flowrate that this thing allows... further testing will tell more.

---

The more components you have in a system, the less impact each individual block has on the flowrate. There's some math behind it that I don't know, I just recall someone posting about it in a storm vs TDX thread.

is it just me or is the apogee like exactly the same thing as the MCW55 except with built in elbow joints

Andrew, I have hte MP-05 (the highest end model) and it is a great block. Its a real flow killer (a little worse than swiftech storm) but it performs like a champ and is also an excelent block if you choose to remove your IHS.

And you dont have to worry about the build quality on the MP-05. Its exceptional.

BUT the swiftech storm will still beat it in performance by a small amount.

I know information is limited but what about the Apogee?
And is there much difference between the low end and high end MP-05?

Basically I already have an order placed for the Apogee and I'm wondering whether to switch it out for the MP05.

The build quality and questionable performance combined with Swiftech trying to be cheap on me has me doubting my decision.

I ordered it from Jab-Tech which is frustrating since you have to email them to cancel an order. I don't want it to ship AND order another one, hence why I'm trying to decide fast.

So... any real difference between the Pro and SP, and is the Pro most likely better than the Apogee?

EDIT another thing that the Apogee said was it was better for dual-core systems because the pin array is wide or something. I have dual core, so what now?

Go with the MP-05. WAY better quality than the apogee. ... and customer service is 10x better.

OK, even the guy WITH the Apogee is saying no.

The Storm is $60 at CoolerGuys, so I got that instead. Jab-Tech had better check my order change *before* they ship or I will be royally pissed.

- What would have happened if I had NOT gone here:
I get the block, it looks/feels :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty. Put it in, and performance is deacent. I get metal shavings all over everything and I cry myself to sleep after throwing my computer against a wall.

- Now:
I'm getting a Storm. Enough said.


Thanks guys, a lot. You don't even know how much this helped. I appreciate it so much.

EDIT whoops one more thing. I got Hydrx... is this OK? I've heard about problems with dyes, etc... should I get Hydrx or Zyrex? I want it to be all UVish...

I like hydrx.

so its OK to use hydrx and a storm, without a filter?

... as ok as it is to use a storm in any loop without a filter.

before it ships id just like to confirm that the storm should be OK with dual core, even though the apogee has a really wide pin array and the storm does not the build quality of the apogee means i should get storm right? and hopefully it will cool better as well?

:shrug: my swiftech kit is keeping my X2 4400 at 43C at this moment
it's under full load, running 2x folding@home consoles, and overclocked as per my sig
i'm happy, using an XP-120 and a panaflo fan i was oc'd to 2750(1.55v) and getting 52C

right now i have an opteron 165 @2620 1.475v with a 7700cu it tops out at about 48*C... i hope water keeps it at like 42ish with some more voltage, i was hoping for a little better but i guess the dual cores are tough to keep cool

but you think storm is OK for X2 even though the apogee is so wide?

seems to work just fine :D

is 1.6v safe for an X2!?

i was running this one at 1.623v earlier for a little while and it seemed ok :shrug:
i don't think i would run it for 24/7 use though

1.55v max, for 24/7 perhaps?

i set it to 1.475 in BIOS but it ends up being 1.44 in CPUz do you say 1.55v max in CPUz or bios

i want it to last 5yrs too

i'm running at 1.586 set in the bios as 1.525+104% cpu-z sees it as 1.520v
i leave my pc on most of the time 24/7 running folding@home

[edit] also, i found that when i changed to water i could overclock another 33MHz at the same voltage :D

i hope to reach 2800mhz or more staying under 40ish

are they still shipping storms?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

none use Propylene Glycol mixed 10% with distillled water for red UV HYDRO TRACE

both are non toxic

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Isn't that Hydro trace oil based? :confused:


You should use Dyle light for automotive cooling systems since it water based and designed for this type of closed loop.

I got my Storm from Sidewinder today and pulled out the Apogee and popped in the Storm. Preliminary testing is telling me they're so close to the same it's not even worth arguing about, within a degree of each other which could even be a difference in ambient temps. AS5 isn't cured yet but that usually doesn't make much difference in my experience. Keep in mind I'm cooling a single CPU only and no GPU in the loop and the other components are the Swiftech Apex kit.

Personally, I wouldn't lose sleep in choosing between the two for a CPU only cooling solution. Go with the cheaper one and clean it out if it needs it.

-pickles

[
The Storm is $60 at CoolerGuys, so I got that instead. Jab-Tech had better check my order change *before* they ship or I will be royally pissed.

- What would have happened if I had NOT gone here:
I get the block, it looks/feels :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty. Put it in, and performance is deacent. I get metal shavings all over everything and I cry myself to sleep after throwing my computer against a wall.

- Now:
I'm getting a Storm. Enough said.


YOU BETTER CONTACT COOLERGUYS YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE A STORM!
I puchased on line thursday and I contacted them friday to make sure they had in stock and they said I bought the last one. I asked them to make sure they had it and found out they could not find one they were out. So got it from crazy PC and they have shipped it.

umm do you think you would have even notice the metal shavings if it wasn't taken apart, probably not.

uh yeah, when they ruined my radiator...

good to hear things are close that means ill pick the one that is better quality for an extra $10
the only thing i wonder again is dual core the apogee might do better since it is so wide
EDIT and what if i decide to add a vid card block later, the storm still OK?

i guess i dont have to have the top of everything else i would have ordered a more expensive pump and radiator

thanks for the heads up on coolerguys ill see what happens

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewZorn

the only thing i wonder again is dual core the apogee might do better since it is so wide

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It's a dual core Opteron I tried them on...

-pickles

awesome then; i got the higher quality built one then.

to be frank, its highly unlikely that the metal shavings would dammage a radiator in the slightest bit. After tearing apart a radiator (coolingworks 12-T) I can assure you that PC cooling radiators are more durable than you may think. While enough metal shavings my clog the radiator, they will NOT puncture the walls of it, even the thin channels. The tubes themselves are brass which is mostly copper, but still a bit stronger. So that would lead you to the conclusion that they are infact a tad stronger than the C110 copper used in the Apogee.

conclusion: apogee shavings will not kill your radiator but are a sad sight to see from swiftech.

oh well, i am glad i paid the extra $10 for the storm still.

Oh boy, can someone say SPANKED!!! Swiftech needs to rename the block APOLOGY...

http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-01.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer

conclusion: apogee shavings will not kill your radiator but are a sad sight to see from swiftech.

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But what about the pump?

http://www.systemcooling.com/images/...ee/image17.jpg

^^^ ... that is EXACTLY where mine cracked. WTF could they have been thinking?!?!?! That thin of a connection cannot support ANY kind of load. No wonder mine cracked. Why in the F couldnt they just machine the top? So it would have cost 10$ more... at least it wouldn't have been a cheap, nasty plastic part that cracks easily.

I'm going to machine a top out of delrin. THEN I'll stick it in my loop. But not before.

Its realy sad to see what have become of Swiftechs blocks, i remember when i fist bought the mcw462 when it came out and took it out of the box, what a block, quality all trough, as where those that followed it. I consider the 6000/6002 series to be very good blocks, good temps, nearly maintenance free. It will be sad to see the Apogee take its place with its inferior quality. I hope for their sake that they reshape the block to a standard worth its name, or else it will be remembered as nikhsub1 put it "Apology".
This block will be hard to sell from now on if they dont quickly present a new decent rev2 of it.

ouch... the only thing it did outperform was the DD Maze3 HAHA. everything else beats it by such a large margin it makes you want to slap someone over at swiftech... nice job by Robotech, once again. :up:

the CPU testing was quite peculiar though. wonder what we'll see when we remove the IHS.... COME ON pH give us those IHS results man!! lol.

... I just don't understand why the CPU tests were reporting that it is on par with a storm...

Can someone clarify this for me? If it performs so terrible in comparison to other blocks on a simulator, why does it perform so closely on a cpu?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkan

... I just don't understand why the CPU tests were reporting that it is on par with a storm...

Can someone clarify this for me? If it performs so terrible in comparison to other blocks on a simulator, why does it perform so closely on a cpu?

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Lee actually explains it in the review. read the whole thing start to finish and you'll understand.

Why should I believe that if swiftech can't produce a quality apogee they can produce a quality storm? Are they following specs closely enough on the storm?

Where does swiftech get there performance results between apogee and storm? Are they in house? How credible is that?

Sorry I just have a few questions that are bugging me.

Has anyone else detected copper shavings or a weak part intersection?

edit:\ I haven't found any shavings within the flow thru area but a minor bit w/in the screw threads. I will inspect closer with a small screwdriver later on and report if I find anything.

i ordered an apogee first, but then the intent of swiftech became amazingly clear.

create a block that is far cheaper to produce than the storm. sell it for somewhat less than the storm. say it is better on the storm.

- cheaper production means more money for them
- slightly cheaper tag does not cancel out lower production costs, but makes users think "wow, what a deal!"
- fake test results that make it look like a complete replacement.

per unit they will make more money than on the storm. so they had to give people a reason to buy it.


i cancelled my apogee and ordered a storm.

i wouldn't go so far as to say that swiftech's tests are fake, but I would say that the TTV clearly represents an unrealistically large die, especially considering that future CPUs will have smaller dies than we're seeing now, because of the shift towards smaller manufacturing processes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkan

http://www.systemcooling.com/images/...ee/image17.jpg

^^^ ... that is EXACTLY where mine cracked. WTF could they have been thinking?!?!?! That thin of a connection cannot support ANY kind of load. No wonder mine cracked. Why in the F couldnt they just machine the top? So it would have cost 10$ more... at least it wouldn't have been a cheap, nasty plastic part that cracks easily.

I'm going to machine a top out of delrin. THEN I'll stick it in my loop. But not before.

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oh man yours cracked.......that's not good..........apart from that issue this block is good...........Storm should have shown why it's a better block on paper and lab tests in the last CPU test with San Diego running with 1.66v........not ever 1C better.......common now

test are subjective they will only tell you results taken from the test but does not translate into real world. What i'm concern about is real world preformance not something just on spec sheets. If the apogee can cool just as good as the storm with +/- 2 degree of difference than i'm all for the apogee by swiftech. I do believe it is wrong of Swiftech making false claims that it will cool better than the storm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dinos22

oh man yours cracked.......that's not good..........apart from that issue this block is good...........Storm should have shown why it's a better block on paper and lab tests in the last CPU test with San Diego running with 1.66v........not ever 1C better.......common now

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Well, we cannot tell if it is a crack or a defect in material, since Orkan never sent us the block back for inspection (at least we have not received it to this date, although Orkan promised to me he would send it last week. Maybe it's "in the mail" ?

Irrespective, I also posted last night on procooling explaining that everybody is missing an important point: that "thin spot" of 0.030 is at the apex of an eliptical funnel. If you look at the cross section ~0.050 away from the apex, the thickness is now 0.035, then another 0.050 and its 0.040, until you reach the tangent of the elipse where it reaches the full thickness of the upper wall i.e. 0.045.

We have placed several blocks in shop vises under constant pressure and found no cracks over time (4 days so far).

With regards to shavings, I already addressed this point. Lee (Robotech) also concurred with me that he had to cut the pieces with a special tool in order to detach them.

When these plates came out of production we were literally amazed by how clean (no burrs) they were compared to our earlier manufacturing process (mill). The very thin pieces on the outer edge that people think are shavings are in fact leftover pins from the cutting process. These are very solidly attached to the base, and we didn't see them as problems. We still don't but are having them removed anyways just to avoid criticism.

I also read all kind of conspiracy theories here and elsewhere. There are no conspiracies against Cathar or anyone else. We designed a block using the latest CFD tools and the data showed us that it was going to perform at a certain level. We then tested the block with all the tools at our disposal, and we published (disclosed) all these results. Some were better than the best blocks we had available for comparison (Storm and 6000), some were worse, some were even. The data was disclosed in full, and in all honesty, as is the tradition at Swiftech. The data was also presented with emphasis on the Industry Standard tool (TTV), the same tool we have used for the past 2 years.

Bottom line, thermally I think that the jury is still out there. Hydraulically, the verdict is clear. There is one last set of tests that I want to do, in order to verify some report by Orkan about overclockability. I happen to have the same CPU he has on my system. So I will do the same set of tests he did (and more) and publish my results here. I have real doubts about this 100Mhz difference in O/C. It doesn't make much sense in my experience. I started overclocking systems in 1998 in the days of the Celeron, and haven't stopped ever since (slowed down a bit I will admit). I will also ask my friend Eric (OPPainter) if he can do some OC tests for us including the graphics. As Orkan reported himself, his GPU temps dropped 2C with the Apogee. The fact that he couldn't OC it more means that he didn't tweak his card enough. 2C is quite significant, and it could have allowed him to increase the voltage on his card, to get a higher OC. Remember guys that CPU OC nowadays is not as critical as it used to be for game play. What is critical is GPU OC.

Anyways, whatever the results are, you guys will be informed.

if GPU OC is more critical than CPU OC, why is the waterblock focus still on the CPU? wheres the GPU STORM? the GPU APOGEE?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

Well, we cannot tell if it is a crack or a defect in material, .......
Anyways, whatever the results are, you guys will be informed.

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:clap: :clap: :clap: :toast: :toast: :toast:

How many manufacturers will at least get on the sites and address issues w/ their products :shrug: While there are some (and just about all of them end up here if they care), the fact that Gabe came over and is trying to answer stuff here is admirable, and I think he will follow thru if someone can conclusively prove issues exist. Give him credit for that, and let's see some more tests, etc. :facts:

(I personally like storm blocks, but Gabe deserves credit for attempting to address the issue of issues :D )

Bloody:
there is a GPU Apogee.. Its called the MCW55. if you look at the internals of the Apogee and MCW55 they are exactly the same in design except that the proportions are a bit different. IE: the dimmensions are not the same.

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The data was also presented with emphasis on the Industry Standard tool (TTV), the same tool we have used for the past 2 years.

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Sorry Gabe, but the TTV is NOT industry standard for testing Waterblocks. Name one other company or individual who uses a TTV to test waterblocks. The fact that you wont be able to name a single one shows that the TTV is in no way the industry standard for waterblock testing.

What it IS and industry standard is for validating cpu heatsinks. I point out the word "validating" becuase this does not mean testing. Valid means it is a pass fail basis. Not quantitative testing.

mad mikee:
I applaud Gabe coming out to the community , but sadly it was not really to our benefit. It was more of a self serving move to defend Swiftechs poor testing procedures and ill fated Apogee.

ouch max

i agree with you, but i'd probably phrase it differently ;)

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Originally Posted by gabe

snip

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thank you for your feedback............it's good to hear from the manufacturer(i assume that you work for Swiftech due to nature of the write up). I am glad that you are so responsive to these claim and I agree with you about too many jokers here making all sorts of claim. Now that you are in fact retesting these areas is a good sign and if you deem them safe it will be much appreciated......cheers dinos22 :toast:

Well to use a very old phrase; "The truth hurts"

In all honesty I have alot of respect for Swiftech. They have produced quality products for a long time and have been involved in the community aswell. And while I do not agree with their testing methods I do commend them for actually posting test data unlike any other waterblock manufacturer, who just releases the product, hoping that people will buy it based on its looks alone. Some companies go so far as to even refuse to send their premiere product to well known reviewers for fear that their prodcut will be exposed.

For those who do know know, Gabe owns Swiftech. Cant remmeber if he has full ownship or if its a partnership but he does own the company.

wooooooooooooo

hows that for customer support lol.

props to gabe and swiftech.


and heres something, if everyone is going to piss and moan about how unclean their blocks are with the shards, then go make your own. :-P im sure it wont be near as good as swiftechs. ( erm, most of you wouldnt, but I know there is people on here that could :D)

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Originally Posted by gabe

The fact that he couldn't OC it more means that he didn't tweak his card enough. 2C is quite significant, and it could have allowed him to increase the voltage on his card, to get a higher OC.

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2c is not a very big difference when you are already runnin a 630mhz core 24/7 stable on an x850xt chief. The card has been hard vmodded and takes 1.65v to be stable at that speed.

More voltage did not increase the overclock.
The 2c drop in temps did not increase the overclock.

I find the shift in focus to the temps of the vid card, and my overclocking abilities disturbing. Is the block in question not meant for a cpu? It has already been established that the apogee is not restrictive.

We seem to be shifting back to the OLD thinking of waterblock design. Back when flowrates were king, and hotspots in the cpu didn't mean jack. I have been overclocking since the P-133... and havn't slowed down... so I assure you I know how to OC.

Discount my results as you may... they are a "3rd party" result. Whatever testing you do, will not hold water as it is your own product you are testing. Please do not believe us so ignorant to think that you would go out of your way to post results that shed a negative light on your new product.

FYI... I have nothing against your company, if you think there is an alterior motive here. I have both a Storm, and an Apogee from you. The storm... is one heck of a quality product. Almost a work of art. The apogee, based on my own performance and overclocking tests... and from a mere "feeling" perspective, can never hold the same title as the Storm has.

Ok, now I'm confused.

Why would a manufacturer of both the Storm and the Apogee, with the Storm being the higher priced "premium" product, willingly to go out of their way to disprove that the Storm is the superior product that justifies its price-point?

If Swiftech truly believe that the Apogee is the superior product, and wish to discontinue selling the Storm, then just discontinue it. The market seems to be making up its own mind. If the market is deciding that the Storm justifies itself after all the hype of the Apogee, and subsequent fall as more and more third party results hit the street, then isn't that a good thing in terms of product positioning and placement?

Normally I would have kept this sort of discussion private between myself and Gabe, but Gabe now seems to be willing to go public in both his building up of the Apogee, and tearing down of the Storm, I just don't understand it. The products are naturally falling into place as the market sees fit, and yet the company that is producing both wants to fight this very convenient progression of market-place perception?

Exactly cathar.

MONEY is the only reason. Performance be damned. Gabe told me on the phone the apogee costs roughly 40% less than the Storm to make.

I don't fault them for this progression... companies want to make money. But sacrifice their credability? Odd move for sure.

Even if money is the only reason, then it still makes no sense. Sure the Storm costs more to make, but so what? Charge more for it. Silly to make any product for a loss.

Okay, so the Apogee costs 40% less to make than the Storm, and the Apogee sells for $50. So, sell the Storm for $80. That covers the increased production cost, and Swiftech would still be making more on a Storm than on an Apogee.

The Storm survived and sold well at $80 in a marketplace filled with $45-55 competing products. The Apogee is here, now, and the only data which is proving to show it is superior is Swiftech's own TTV data, which no other data agrees with. Swiftech also claims similar performance on IHS CPU's, but independent testing by Robotech, nikhsub1, and others, have shown that IHS CPU measurements provide no distinction between 5yo products and the latest products, let alone latest to latest. Anecdotal evidence is leaning one way (Apogee ~= MCW6000). Small AND Large die tests are also leaning the same way.

So what's the problem here? Why come out swinging, slashing and fire-saling the Storm's price, and attacking anyone who doesn't agree that the Apogee isn't the best thing ever to come along?

Put the prices back where they were, continue to sell both, make the company required amount of profit on both blocks as suits their manufacturing and pricing structure, and let the market decide, which it already seems to be doing anyway.

Why fight it? I don't understand. Suppose a company makes $100 on a budget product, and $160 on a high-end product (because everything gets scaled up by 1/0.6, or 60%), then what's the problem? Why try to convince the market to buy the budget product in place of the high-end product against the market's perceptions? Surely the company would be happier that more people bought the expensive product, and that they were pocketing the extra $60?

Not even the "It's all about money" argument makes sense in light of what's going on.

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Originally Posted by Gimmpy224

and heres something, if everyone is going to piss and moan about how unclean their blocks are with the shards, then go make your own. :-P im sure it wont be near as good as swiftechs. ( erm, most of you wouldnt, but I know there is people on here that could :D)

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I built a block out of 10 bucks of material that doesn't have any shards floating around, and I'd wager it outperforms the apogee ;).