@andersson & exa: Yes, well. I wanted to get a BIP for that test, as it would have "completed" the BI family. Couldn't get a .3 here, sadly. CW would have been even harder to get, maybe I can add that in the future.
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@andersson & exa: Yes, well. I wanted to get a BIP for that test, as it would have "completed" the BI family. Couldn't get a .3 here, sadly. CW would have been even harder to get, maybe I can add that in the future.
if you should get a hold of a pro3, would it be "easy" to test it and put the result
in the list with the other?
DangerDen now has PA120.3s back in stock. I jus' ordered mine. Now I'll read up on Radicals post. But I'm pretty sure I done good.(Thanks "Marci")
Edit: Thanks Radical53. My Storm will love this rad. I don't guess the extra heat my pump puts out is gonna' hurt anything.(Heh)
@exa: Depends on how long it'd take :) Right now, I've still got the exact same system running. But as soon as I change something, it wouldn't be comparable 1:1. That's why I tried to get a hold of as many good rads as possible when I did the test.
dang, you shold get ahold of one before you change something. to bad i use mine now... somebody should be able to borrow you one!
Already borrowed the Extreme, came from Jupiler :D I was quite disapointed not to get a Pro in the first place, as the comparison with the GT would have been very interesting. Same thing every time, some interesting part is always missing...
i´, quite surprised as the watercool htf3 showed the 2nd lowest restrictivity and it is a condesnser-style rad, so it was too early too call this thingies the most restrictive rads (maybe the mora isn´t that bad, anyone should try it:stick: )
*nod* I'd be interested in seeing more condenser-style rad tests. I suspect you'll find that their performance drops sharply as airflow goes up, for the same reason why pull is better: thanks to air's low viscosity, rads dont really like turbulent airflow, and circular-section tubes like those in condenser rads create a considerable turbulence shadow on the fin area behind them.
i only thought about water restriction:p: , the test shows clearly that the high fin-density preventy the rad from being competitive, but i was surprised by the small flow-restrictionQuote:
Originally Posted by creidiki
well, the restriction of a condenser rad is drectly related to the number of passes and the radius of the turns.
The HTF3 has his 27m of copper tubing divided on 3x9m, so that's maybe why it's not as restrictive as one may think. Other rads, like the AC evo or the Mora, are restrictive as hell.
And just as creidiki said, that's also what my test showed, they don't perform well with high air flow. So you get some quite good performance with low air flow and also low water flow, but you can't increase that really. With a heater core style, you can increase the performance it has, not so with a condenser.
So for better car heating performance I should shove a PC cooling rad in there? LOL.
Good thread back to top with you!
I was just curious, if anyone knew: Which Yate fans did Radical_53 use for the temp tests: The D12SM or the D12SL?
He used SLs :)
That's very impressive, considering that the SL's are rated at 47 CFM @1650RPM. They must have only been pulling, what, 40CFM? And they achieved coolant temps within 4deg of ambient.
The Swiftech rad also seemed to gain some ground as the airflow got higher, which is very encouraging for me, since the MCR series is more within my price range. Being in NA sucks if you want exotic EU computer parts.
sl is 47cfm\1350\28db
sm is 70cfm\1650\33db
I bought about 10 of the SLs and put them throughout my case. They just didnt push enough air, my case temps were higher and everything was hotter. Being that my rad is floor mounted in my case I can run the stock Lian Li fans which are 75 CFM at 100% and due to location I cannot hear them. The other fans are also higher CFM and on a fan controller.
Sure they are quiet, but I wasn't impressed with performance.
Sounds like you had it imbalanced with more inlets than outlets...
yeah. i got 3 yates in my case(+psu) and i get better temps overall with my door on than off....
Hey Guys,
I've spent the last couple days researching different radiators on the market and the PA120.3 truely seems to have the best specs, and should match decenlty with my current watercooling hardware (HW Labs BIP.3 w/3x YS Tech 120mm x 38mm fans @ 5v, Swiftech MCP655 pump, DD Maze4 GPU block, the older A64 Swiftech 6002 CPU block, and last but not least I'm running Primoflex 1/2" ID tubing all around)!
The only problem is that I can't find a US distributor where I can buy the radiator, someplace reputable if possible? If anyone has any idea's please fill me in. And yet I've done both google and yahoo searches on it, although there were tons of hits most are across the ocean and not here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger_D25
http://www.thermochill.com/retailers.php
It's in stock at Performance Pcs http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=3944
OP edited to include Addendum - Oct 2006: ThermoChill PA120.2 vs Swiftech MCR320 - double vs triple...
Any reason why a PA160 wasn't included in these Independent tests ?
Cos the guy doing the testing doesn't have one. Sure if you offered to buy one and send it to him to test he wouldn't say no.
Alot of Independent Hardware tests have the samples supplied by
companys that make the product.Due to not being telepathic i
wrongly assumed you supplied the samples.But i'm sure if you send
him a sample he would gladly test it as you seem to like his results
and you use them for advertising your rads at any opportunity when
a new user is looking to buy a Radiator.
:D
As Radical undertakes this testing for free, unpaid, we aren't prepared to drop an entire range of rads on him to test, as that would take up weeks of his time... we supplied the PA120.2. We weren't approached to provide a PA120.3 for the initial tests - he sourced it himself. If/when he wants/has time to test a PA160, sure he'll ask fer one...
@digz: I purchased the PA 120.3 because I wanted to know how well it performed. As TC had no local import here, and many people hesitate to order internationally, I didn't see much sense in asking them to send me one.
Now, after the review, I saw that many people are interested in it and want to have one. Also, as it was so much better than competition, the idea came up to compare a PA .2 to the #2 rad of the competition, the Swiftech MCR320.
As the numbers show, even a PA .2 can compete with any other .3 rad.
PA 160 would be interesting to test also, even if I think a slightly different testbed would be just fair for it to compete on. I'm still waiting on some stuff to arrive here, if that works out I'll drop Marci a mail for sure :)
yah very hard to order internationally, xpensive air freight, not all accepting int'l CC, etc etc.
by sponsoring a said test/review people/some sites tend to be more bias to make a positive review for said item...
this is not good if you're to remain an unpartial product tester...
Daam... i got an tripple pro (got an tripple to compensate for a bit lower performance) cus that was thin enought to mount on the top of my case (internaly) but i could easily mount a double rad in front of my case instead...
oh well atleast i now can easily get cold air from outside straight into my rad from the window....
@septim: Well, that woulnd't even have been the problem in this case. All EU, no customs and Paypal transaction. Doesn't get easier than that ;) Still you're right if it's overseas, also as you said shipping is quite pricy anyhow then.
I agree with you on the sponsoring, at least if it's more than sending in some parts and giving support (in a technical way).
@exa: That's one point why I thought it would be interesting. It's way easier to fit a .2 rad in most cases than a .3. I hope that results like these do give the folks more options when choosing a case, even if they want to put all the fancy hardware in there like dual GPU and such.
Questions for Radical_53:
1.In the first test, the mcr320 had a temp of 8.4c@600rpm vs 9.2c in the second test. The temp was 6.9c@900rpm in the first test and only 6c in the second. The results .8c hotter then .9c colder between the two tests, Why is that?
2.How much (if at all) did the i.d. of the barbs differ between rads in the flow test.
3. What do you consider the margin of error to be for the test results?
Thanks, FLB
I used the same barbs on all rads for the tests, all EK 1/2" barbs.
You can't directly compare the both tests, as the setup was somewhat different. The second setup hat a higher flow rate and one block less on the loop.
Margin of error would normally be 0.1°C +/- for each sensor for what we're measuring here (a temperature difference), but as we took multiple measurements (logged), it would only change the absolute results, but not the relative result from one to the other contender.
With enough data you can still make fairly reliable indirect comparisons. Reducing load and increasing flow rate will reduce temps as we clearly see at 900rpm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
The water drops .8c@.855gpm at 900rpm and 1200rpm for both rads. This temp drop represents 180 watts +/-22.5 watts (.8c +/-.1c).
At 600rpm the mcr320 drops 1.2c while the Pa drops .7c. This suggests that the mcr320 hasn't reached a steady state (or that you were stepping on the hose, j/k). I'm guessing that you preheated the rad before turning on the fan. Is this correct?
Were the alphacool rads new or used? The pressure drop of these rads seems to hint that some of the channels are blocked.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions,
FLB
The Alphacool rads were new, as all others except for the two Black Ice Extreme rads, were one was mine and one came from Jupiler. Before I used them initially, I cleaned them to some point (no week-long vinegar rinsing thing, but basic cleaning).
About the test itself: I didn't heat the rads up before measuring took place. I heated them up with running fans, logging temperatures and took the final values as soon as they were steady for at least 5-10 mins. After that, load was taken off with fans still running, until the temps went to a steady idle state. Then fan speed was changed and the next heating period started again. For the temp readings, I don't know if that's written here somewhere: I used one probe on all "normal" temps, but two for the air inlet temp (to be sure). All sensors were calibrated before the measurements took place at different temps to be sure that all worked correctly.
About the wattage, that was right on the second test. My readings gave me roughly 195W heat output.
About the comparison: Sure, a rough comparison is possible. Sadly I coulnd't keep the exact same test setup, direct comparison would have made it easier. I'm still not through the process of having just the testbed I'd want, so I'm still changing something here and there. As I'm also changing things like sensors and measuring equipment, that means that each test run itself is so far "correct", but comparison to another test run can lead to problems in detail here and there.
Thanks for your quick reply. Was the first test ~224W? (195/6x6.9).Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
What are/were you using for the heat load?
Is there a link to were you describe your setup so I don't have to bother you with so many questions?
Thanks, FLB
The description of the setup is in the article ;) Basically I used my SLI setup (-> sig) as a heat source, yet the second test had slightly lower CPU clocks + voltage and a missing chipset block. I used a different CPU block on the first setup also.
As Marci said, I don't get paid for these tests, so I do have to use the stuff that I got here. My "main" test rig doesn't have enough heat for a rad test, so I had to use my own rig for that purpose.
So are you happy with the PA120.2? That is the only one i could find in stock and ordered it. I wanted the 120.3 but no one had them in stock....Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
BTW Marci and Radical thanks for all your tests and commitment. Tests like these help us consumers buy items : ).
Yes, totally satisfied. For me personally, I upgraded my case like a year ago to use a bigger rad, as my old .2 rad wasn't capable of giving me good temps even with a single card.
So now, I haven't finished that case yet, but had always planned to use a .3 rad in it. No matter which .3, it would have been really close, blocking quite some of the slots in the front. With a PA .3, I'd even have to let my PSU stick out a little as it's so long.
Now, as I've seen of what the PA .2 is capable of, I'll certainly use it for that rig. It doesn't block my slots in the front, so that I can use other stuff I might want to put it, I don't have my PSU stick out and I'll still have at least the performance on a level that no other than a PA .3 can provide. I'm hoping that a custom made 140mm shroud will unleash even a tad more performance, but that hasn't been tested yet. Gives me the opportunity to run a SLI setup, all overclocked, with really silent operation in a very slim "package". I'd say it won't get much better than that :D
Seen this yet d00d??
Am assuming this is the family from which the earlier-posted 120.4 is from - same as BIP is to BIX, so GT is to GTX...Quote:
The next step in the Black Ice GT evolution is coming...
Enter the Black Ice GTX
Yes, seen it and waiting for some... they claim it's not just a double-thickness conversion, let's see what's in it.
What kind of heatload did you use to test PA120.2 vs MCR320? Do you think that the PA120.2 would surpas MCR320 with higher CFM fans like sanyo denkis or would it be worse?
Heat load wasn't that much different on both setups I had. The first setup, were all the .3 rads were tested, had a lower CPU clock of 2.8GHz, but higher voltage (1.55V) and the chipset was on the loop. The second setup was with 2.9GHz and 1.41V, but without the chipset on the loop.
Heat load was ~194-202W according to my sensors on the second test, should have been somewhat higher on the first test (225-230W).
About the higher cfm on the PA, I'll see :) I'm still about to get a shroud made for 140mm fans and then I'll do a test on that, see if it does improve performance even further. But for now, I do only have the data of the normal 120mm YL D12SLs, so I'd really have to test that out. The improvements from more air flow got smaller the higher the rpms of the fans got, so it might not be too much that you can gain there.
Hmm... Just a 2.9ghz 1.41v DC opty? Very low heatload... Trying to pick a new rad for kents/4x4/k8l whatever. Maybe a single R600 in the loop. PA120.2 is what I really want but PA120.2 + shroud + gaskets + 2 denkis is almost 175 dollars. Hell of a lot of money for a radiator.
Oh, you should read the rest of what the setup consisted of ;) Those were the changes from the setup with all .3 rads to the comparison of the .2 PA and the .3 MCR. There was a SLI setup of 2 7800GT cards (full cover block), running at 500/1400MHz on the loop also ;)
Should be plenty of headroom if you plan to use only a single card then.
Ah alright :) Thanks!
Wonder what ever happend to Cathar bench testing the new rads ?
Wonder what happened to this being a sticky?
I unstuck it. I never planned it to be stuck forever.
Australian summer + spectacular motorbike crash.Quote:
Wonder what ever happend to Cathar bench testing the new rads ?
Would rather he concentrated on getting himself fully fixed up than hassle him for further testing results.
Does anyone know how the PA120.3 compares to the new Black Ice GTX 360? They are similarly priced.
id venture to guess the Pa 120.3 performs better
Yeah the PA120.3 outperforms the BIGTX, especially under if low CFM fans are being used! I recenlty replaced my old BIX 120.3 with Thermochils PA120.3 after reading all the reviews and learning about all the work that went into that radiator! The other thing to consider is how many components your trying to cool? If your only running one CPU waterblock in your loop than it might now cool any better than a BIP120.2 because you can only cool down to ambient temps. If on the other hand your cooling many compoents (GPU, CPU, Chipset, HDD, etc...) than the extra capacity of the PA120.3 will cool better. Last but not least the fin design on the PA120.3 is such that fans stay very quite because there is not alot of resistance through the fins. There are many reviews on the PA120.3 as well as many comparisons against other high performance radiators, I would take the time and do as much research as possible before getting any radiator because in your case there might be a better solution out there?
Hi, please I have one quick question
Dual PA120.2 with 8 fans will cool better/much better than PA120.3 with 6 fans?
ocfx
Three single rads cool as good as one tripple rad assuming equal flow. But since three rads are about three times as restrictive as a tripple the flow is lower and they cool slightly worse than a tripple. How much worse depends on how much lower the flow is and hence how strong pump you use.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCFX
So two PA120.2 should cool about 1/4 better than a PA120.3 (minus the performance loss due to lower flow).
Since a PA120.3 can handle quite a lot of heat you'd need a really hot system to notice any difference. If the PA120.3 can cool the water to near ambient two PA120.2 won't be able to lower temps noticeably.
You'd need a huge amount of heat to see an advantage of fans on both sides. Might be worth a try, but "normally" I'd say the difference is too small to be noticed.
About dual PA 120.2, again the heat load thing. If you put something together like a Kentsfield + 8800GTX SLI setup, then the difference might be interesting. But most certainly not below that.
Anyone know where I can grab another 120.2 or .3? They seem to be tough to find lately.
I got my PA120.3 at mountainmods, they were the only place who had them in stock (and I looked for over three weeks, waiting for other retailers to get them back in stock with no luck)! They use Thermochill radiators in their builds so they usually have them in stock! It's worth it, despite costing more than other radiators.
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7034/eightyk8.jpg
This picture was taken two days before I upgraded my motherboard, RAM, and CPU. Besides that everything is the same. This radiator is huge, even compared to my old BIP 120.3!
Thanks for the responses guys. They were extremely useful! Especially Roger telling me where I can get a PA120.3. I've been looking for months!
http://www.thermochill.com/retailers.php
I'd have just worked me way down the list emailing each company on there til I found one with stock... *shrug*
That would have been the easy way to do it Marci, lol! Although I know how you feel Muftobration because I also spent alot of time trying to find a retailer who had this radiator in stock! By the way Marci, thanks again for helping me to get my PA120.3 sorted! Since I had never used a double-pass radiator before I didn't realize that it's a bit more difficult to get the air out! At the moment though everything is running strong and I'm very impressed with the PA120.3!
hey, talkin about that, any quick tips right now to get air outta my rad? the water AND BUBBLES are just speeding along past my t-line, so teh rad is gurgle-gurlging alll night long.
If it's lying on the side, just turn it a little so that the outlet is not absolutely parallel to the ground, but points a little further towards the roof. Then all the air should get out easily.
talkin bout the t line? yea it lies kinda on its side, i propped it up with an ankle wrap this mornign before work and lil by lil bubbles trickled out. but im saying, there is always some air in the rad i think, just turn the screw at back of the rad is all i should do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
thanks for hte rip R53
No, I meant the rad ;) It's much easier if the rad is lying on the side, with both barbs one above the other. Then, if you slightly tilt the rad, the bubbles all come out very easily.
Your t-line should "stand" upwards so that the bubbles can get somewhere, away from the loop.
You could also lower the flow by squeezing the tubing or undervolting the pump. I always bleed with only one of my two DDCs on and at very low voltage.
oh ok, good words fellas, ima lay the machine on its side over lunch then see what happens!
Undervolting is a good idea if you have something to do that.
The PA120.3 was not available at any of the sites listed there. I guess I'll have to wait.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
How do the Swiftech rads stack up against the Thermochill ones? Don't just tell me they are better, I already know that. I want to know actual real-world performance differences so I can decide for myself if they are worth spending twice as much on.
Thanks!
Mountain mods seems to always have em in stock.
Mine arrived dented. :rolleyes:
But since its not leaking and the dent isn't bad enough to create flow restriction I'm still very happy with it.
I keep an OCed Conroe and 2 hot x1900 cards at a cool 35C. Granted, if I ran 3 x 70cfm fans on it I could probably stay under 30C and under 35C load. But I'm happy with my dead silent Yates at under 900rpm.
There are obviously many different factors such as flow rate, ambients, air flow that will effect real-world performance. As such you can only go by people who have tested real-world performance like Marci.Quote:
Originally Posted by darcon
The answer if its worth the money depends entirely on what you want to achieve. How many watts are you cooling? Are you concerned with OCing or quiet or a combo of both? What kind of pump / blocks do you have? What ambients will you be running under?
In the end, I just simply wanted the best so I wouldn't have to second-guess myself or have to rebuild my WC system. So I went with the PA120.3 of course. ;)
If noise is not an issue for you I'm 100% certain you could achieve the same nominal temps on a PA as a Swiftech with bigger fans. A 120x3 with enough airflow can handle almost any normal heatload (unless if you are running TECs).
A triple Swiftech is about as good as a dual Thermochill. The rest scales down. In terms of flow/restriction, there is just no comparison.
I thought you guys should know that I emailed all of the companies that sell them and performance-pcs.com and mountainmods.com were the only ones who said they would have them in the near future. That was on monday, and performance-pcs said they would have them on friday (which they did, I just ordered one from them) and mountainmods said they would have some in two weeks (next week now).
get them directly from thermochill? http://www.thermochill.com/acatalog/pa_series.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Muftobration
its atually cheaper. 48.5 British pounds = 95.5062 U.S. dollars without shipping.
I recently ordered my PA120.3 straight from Thermochill, $146 shipped from UK to Arizona. PPC has them in stock now, but they're $135 + shipping, which for me was the same amount.
Actually i just filled in the info for shipping and the cheapest shipping is 5.31 pounds...so 5.31 + 48.50 pounds = 53.81 British pounds = 105.962652 U.S. dollars. Thats insanely cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by badhabit
I just spoke with someone from Thermochill yesterday and they do not have any in stock currently but will be producing more shortly.
I'm not sure that's international shipping...Quote:
Originally Posted by jopapa1267
I was quoted 27 pounds via email.
ALL international (ie: non-UK) sales via ThermoChill.com all receive a custom shipping price by email prior to despatch generally. The amount shown on the site is a guide only.
Marci your website says you have no PA120.2's in stock. Is this correct?
Not a clue - not at work at the moment... email sales@thermochill.com
I have several times, and each time proves to be a waste of time.
The word is, very few folks have stock including us. Every batch that comes thru is packed up and shipped over to the US as it comes in, leaving us with no stock and UK resellers are now being made to go without so that we can fulfil US backorders.
ANOTHER load have just left here for DD today, wiping us out of stock.
Steve replied to my email today and is helping me with my order.
Cheers
In January i'mgoing to make an order for my WC system.
1x ThermoChill PA120.2
1x Thermochill PA160
and some pumps and tube etc...
most likely from Over-Clock.co.uk
let's hope you have stock by then.
Cheers
Performance PCs has them in stock right now as of the 19th, I just picked up another 120.2 from them and it shipped right out.
Sorry for the bumpage, but this thread/review is fantastic. Thanks!
*smacks head against table *
Marci, can you give a link to Radical_53's PA120.2 vs MCR320 tests? While I don't doubt the PA series is superior to the MCR's, it is very surprising that the double PA could equal the triple MCR, and I'd like to read how the tests were done.
Well, it was just the same test setup as for the other radiators, except that there was no chipset block in the loop for that second comparison. Also, as stated in the text, the PA 120.2 was used with the additional performance shroud. Without it, performance would have been slightly lower.
The performance difference between the PA 120.3 and MCR .3 was so big that I thought this comparison might give an interesting result, actually the result was above my expectations.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious (not at all unlikely), but I haven't found a clear write up of your test procedure yet. I do see that there's some stuff scattered through this thread, but do you have all the details collected in one post or article somewhere?
The information was in an article, but that's not available for download publically right now (still working on it) :(
Sys specs first test:
AMD Opteron @ 2.8GHz, 1.52V, Watercool Heatkiller 2.5
DFI Lanparty Expert, 280MHz, 1.59V, OC Labs C3 low profile
2 x Gainward 7800 GT 512MB, 500/1400MHz, Watercool Heatkiller GPU-X 2.5
This system consumed ~330W during the test through a 500W Seasonic S12 PSU.
Loop was connected with 7/16" Masterkleer Tubing, 1/2" EK barbs, Laing DDC+ with modded top. Flow and temperatures were collected and recorded through an Innovatek Fan-o-Matic Pro controller.
The second setup was nearly the same, only changes were that the chipset block was missing in the loop and that the CPU was running at 2.95GHz at 1.41V using a Storm Rev.2 CPU block.
If you need further information I'd have to look that up, it's all written down *somewhere* :)
Is there a direct comparison between these ? Im in the market for a 3x120 rad but the PA120.3 is twice the price of an MCR320 here in Aus. Im going to check the direct Thermochill price atm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermochill checkout
:up:
Yes, first page of this thread. The line might start with "Cooltek" as that was the name they sold the Swiftech at over here back when I did the review.
Could someone take a high resolution photo of a HE120.3 next to a PA120.3 or describe the physical differences. I'm trying to buy one second hand and the seller is unsure which it is, and I don't know how to tell them apart.
The HE series of radiators require separate fixings to mount the fans. The PA radiators have fan mounting built in.
Depends when you bought it Weescott... HE Rev2 had separate fan mounts... Rev3 however was exactly as PA Series is - fan mounts built in to sideplates.
To check which is which, measure. Measurements are published on each rads page at Thermochill.com - both rads have different dimensions (width & depth).
Other than that, it's all visual by looking at the fins.
HE120.1 Rev2
http://www.thermochill.com/images/pr...1201/he120.jpg
PA120.1 Rev1
http://www.thermochill.com/images/pr...1201/pa120.jpg
Both side by side.... (PA Rev1 - top vs HE Rev1 - bottom)
http://www.thermochill.com/images/pr...201/paboth.jpg
Isn't that last reversed, Marci?
Yep, PA at the top, HE at the bottom... sorry!
in several website the pa 120.3 seem to be gray color ..
is this rad black or gray/chromed ?
and where to buy it with visa card or paypal, I live in France.. ?