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Quote:
Originally Posted by deception``
well they certainly didnt directly advertise that. but then again, they have guys from OCZ (nothing against OCZ, great guys btw) showing how high they can clock with the DFI. and if memory (no pun intended) serves me right, there were DFI reps on these very pages showing how high they can clock with these boards. Would you call that direct or indirect advertising?
Muzz, the point of question #3 was to show just how irrational this complaint is.
Simply put, it would be foolish for someone to RMA or complain about a failed pipe mod on an x800 Pro VIVO. This is because the VIVO - > XT PE mod was in no way endorsed by manufacturers. So there was a risk with this mod despite the fact that there were some who were successful.
Similarly, the +5 volt jumper has more warnings/red flags attached to it than guaruntees. So in the same fashion as scenario #3, we as enthusiasts bear the risk that use of the jumper could lead to averse affects. Of course, these risks may vary from person to person (board to board), but the fact of the matter is that the warning signs were there.
In my situation, I had a few run-ins with the +5 volt jumper myself. MY OCZ PC 4000 VX began to give me issues past 3.5 volts, but my old-school Mushkin Bh-5 gave me no problems past 3.6 volts. Given this and the fact that I use my system for more than just benchmarking, I decided that it was in my best interests to get off the jumper....so I did. I now have some nicely binned TCCD that suits my needs. It's really that simple.
Don't get me wrong, however; I do recognize that this COULD be an issue, but its best if it is handled in an appropriate manner. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that flooding forums (DFI Street especially) with rants is going to solve anything. I have had close relations with some of the DFI Admins (AG namely) and one thing I learned is that they don't respond too well to flames and/or percieved flames. Anyone who remembers the PcPerspective/AMD forums incident should know exactly what I am talking about.
In short, I think that it is better for people to take a breather and let things play out accordingly. Instead of spending so much time complaining, I would recommend that some of these same members offer their support to people such as bigtoe who are working hard to address the issue.
deception``
Maybe it was a lack of judgement, and he actually told the truth instead of the company line?Quote:
Originally Posted by pershoot
Maybe it was misconstrued, I dunno I wasn't there.
Maybe he has seen/ heard a ton more than you and I regarding these issues?
Just a thought.
we will never know since we weren't there. we can only speak from our own experiences with the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz
There is a very fine line as to what indirect advertising really is.Quote:
Originally Posted by situman
Let's say for example you sold some Mushkin Bh-6 on the forums situman.
You might say something around the lines of "I've had these sticks for xxxx amount of time, and they have ran 240 2-2-2-x @ 3.2 volts in xxx motherboard with no problems." However, you'll most likely include something in your thread along the lines of "YMMV" (Your Mileage Mary Vary for any of you wondering).
Is this not "indirect advertising?"
To some it would be. Despite your abbreviated warning, the fact of the matter is that you have provided potential buyers with results, so they may have an expectation (albeit unjustified perhaps) that those sticks will behave similarly (maybe not identical) under similar/appropriate conditions.
To others it would be a fair sale. They would claim that it goes without question that every person's results could differ. Moreover, they would most likely note that the sale was fair as long as they run in according to their rating. If such a situation were to actually occur, most likely camp #2 would win in the event of a dispute.
Here we can clearly see that indirect advertising is a very relative term, and is also a very poor excuse in many situations ;)
deception``
luckily we can still overvolt our RAM without using the 5v jumper.....
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=61632
....All that is needed for this simple mod is an extra jumper (who doesn't have a dozen jumpers lying around), and a PSU with ajustable rails (like the OCZ Powerstream series...I got the 600watt one today).
BTW deception what "Complaint" are you referring to?
Let me put it this way for folks that aren't paying attention....
Remember Abit?
They used to be great clockers, I will go out on a limb and say the best if comparing 1:1 sales.
Remember Oskar Wu?
Why do you know his name?
Cuz he's the best I know of.
Where does he work now?
Why does he work there?
Targeting Overclockers is why, so hiding behind a veil will do no good, this board WAS targetted at the enthusiast community, and it did very well until folks started having issues with dead hardware and cold boot issues.
I'm NOT trying to hang anybody, this stuff happens, all I want is a solid answer to the questions most folks are asking.
What to do now.
It seems we have an answer already, but are we CERTAIN thats the end of it?
I am aware they are busy doing other things, so I will personally will wait for an answer.
NP here, but the issues SHOULD be discussed, as that is one of the reasons I joined ANY forums in the first place.
End users ARE the BEST for info as long as you are aware of what is what.
Peace
m
That's right. My personal guess is, they pretty much have chosen the silence strategy so that to avoid the flames which might start if they started to speak on it. However a comment "guys, please, stay cool, we're working on it right now even at midnight" would be just a wise strategical decision, otherwise they pretty much make the soil for growing rumors, speculations, anger and frustration.Quote:
Originally Posted by deception``
I hope that they have the will to acknowledge that the problem exists (of course only IF it really is there). Because if Frank Wong was really saying what is posted he said, then every DFI user should be aware of not using the jumper until a fix has been brought out - and such an info should come straight from DFI as the manufacturer.
Much of that I agree with Muzz, let's do the typical rundown.
1. I agree 200% that the DFI boards are targeted specifically to enthusiasts. Based on this, you and I should both agree with my earlier comment that enthusiasts have risks that they must bear. We can try to control some variables as much as possible (such as heat, timings, voltage, power, etc), but somethings simply cannot be accounted for. Despite this fact, a trade-off between risk and return must be recognized. It's no different no matter what you're doing. Someone running Phase or LN2 has the potential for extremely high clocks, but they could run into other issues such as poor mounting or condensation. Of course this is but a small example, but it goes to show that no overclocker can "have his/her cake and eat it too." The risks only increase as we look for further and further gains in performance.
2. I also agree that issues (including this one) should be discussed. However, there is a fine line between discussions and rants, and it has been crossed several times on several forums (not naming any names directly). This is what I believe does not contribute to the issue at hand. Therefore, I apologize if I have made it seem like I wish to put a muzzle on the problem. Like you, I recognize that many things can be learned from the end user themselves, so I have no complaints on this one :)
deception``
Hey guys. The solution and full discussion of the END-USER side of things can be found in these 2 topics.....
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=61632
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d=1#post872553
It appears there is not going to be any discussion, at least from the DFI street reps side:
Let's hope the bold text (was bold in the original post as well) indicates we'll have some answers soon ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Games @ dfi-street
Well said. I think that DFI could certainly benefit from issuing an amicable statement explaining that they are looking at the issue. Unfortunately, I think they left that approach behind when they left PcPerspective :slapass:Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlobber
Also, I question the validity of the Frank Wong "statement." Remember when everyone had a different launch date for the NF4 motherboards from various DFI Tech Support Representatives? Look at how off many of those claims were now :stick: I think that it's best that we hear the news from the horse's mouth instead.
deception``
As I stated above we ARE aware of these things ( at least most of us that are paying attention are).Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark42
Thanks for the links for folks that weren't aware of them.
I'll stick a bit onto this........... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by deception``
PC2700 DDR333 Rams with BH-6 chips onboard and of caurse on a DFI NF4-SLI D mobo........ :D
Search before you post...... ;)
http://www.thelab.gr/images/Hipro5/A...288MHz_png.png
http://www.thelab.gr/images/Hipro5/A...91_1_1_jpg.jpg
P.S........Ohhh.........OK ........Vdimm was provided not by the 5V jumper though but by the DDR Maximizer......... :)
Hipro5 that statement was not meant to say that it is impossible. Most of us Bh-5/Bh-6 users are aware of just how well those sticks can clock regardless of their speed bin. All I was saying is that it would be moot to complain if they did not hit a speed that they are otherwise rated for.
deception``
Hipro
We have tested the board with the booster also and it does clock better. Interesting to see your booster has some good results.
Maybe this could be the answer, use a booster/maximiser and leave the jumper on 3.3V line?
Am I the only one to notice, that folks with "old school" BH-5 DO NOT have this problem ???
Whats that?Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Dead boards?
... dying RAM or, as it's said, "probs" with 5v jumper...
One question............For the guys blaming Ram modules.........HOW many of you have you heard that VX and Twinmos Rams were been burned down into an INTEL rig?........DON'T blame the Ram modules!.........If 100 died in DFI mobo , 1 or 2 died in an Intel mobo........So don't blame Ram modules.......and don't say that on an Intel rig are not working in their limits coz that's NOT true........Even Intel guys feed them with 3.6Vdimm+...... ;)
As most of you know, I'm an Intel guy........I have worked occasionally with AMD rigs and I WASN'T satisfied at all.......TILL I worked with the DFI NF4-SLI D mobo......This was the FIRST AMD mobo that worked STABLE and UN-DIE-ABLE for me with WHATEVER I've done to it........and believe me, I've torture it a LOT........ :D
The fact is that something is going on, but what?.......I hope DFI and us find a cure to this problem......... ;)
I agree! :)Quote:
I think the blame for most board failures from running the 5v rail can be placed on user error, lack of cooling, or lack of knowledge. The very the idea of running 4v on your memory should be enough of a risk to alarm someone to the idea that this might cause hardware failures and damage, and as such should be considered done at your own risk ! This is common sense stuff if you ask me.
:toast: :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
The mobo I had and also esdee's mobo where fed with the DDR Maximizer........We have tested BH-6 , BH-5 and UTT Ram chips up to 3.9Vdimm.......We didn't encode any problem....... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtoe
P.S. It's not a Booster........It's a Maximizer....... ;) :D :toast:
Exactly, and since it would be hard to say what exactly the contex was since it was not by email but by a verbal communication that was not transcripted at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by pershoot
But the point of the matter is some have problems, some dont. I don't think its as clear cut as pointing the fingure at any one point (nor the users)
I don't. Many of us, including me, lost RAM while using the 5v feed even though we were only using 3.2volts and have active cooling (I had 2x80mm fans running directly on them. This is not on the user end as much as it is a glitch with the 5v feed.Quote:
Originally Posted by I.L.F. 3004
.........EVEN ONE user encode a problem, then there IS a problem......and we are not talking here for a bunch of users........They are a LOT..... ;)
P.S again...... :D I'm geting a DFI NF4 SLI-D mobo again coz I liked it....... ;) :)
@hipro5,
Regardless of what you have said above, I bet that it HAS something to do with RAM type/amount. To be more specific - I think UTT ***MIGHT*** be the one to blame, as all those failures happen with pretty much mostly Winbond UTT based RAM.
And yet there are plenty of non-DFI motherboard owners, who overvolt (using Booster, mods etc) and clock happily their UTT based RAM without issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
DOH!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Badong
OK.........and WHY NOT on an INTEL rig and 3.6VDimm+.........?...... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
EDIT: I had my DFI over a week torturing it with BH-6, BH-5, UTT and Samsung.......I didn't encode NOT even one problem despait the "cold boot 3500+ CPU problem"......NOT a DFI's problem but COU's problem...... ;)
Answer to this question is same as for "Why many, many others have no issues with DFI NF4 and 4v vdimm-feed?" :D Simply, there's no straight answer for that ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I think it's mostly been this type of RAM because the vast majority or users that even think of using the 5volt feed are those that own RAM which respond well to higher voltages that aren't availible with the 3.3volt feed.
For this reason we won't see many, if any, TCCD RAM users with problems pertaining to the 5volt feed (or any value RAM users either).
Thing is, I have yet to see someone with "old" BH-5 complaining about his RAM being killed by 4v option :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark42
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I have been taking most of the EU RMA's for OCZ for a while now, I have a huge amount of dead ram here, i talk with most of the users to see what they found etc and i can say this does NOT start and finish with UTT One guys has corsair and kingston BH5....killed one module from each kit. He has had 4kits of VX and 2 kits of twinmos BH5...all have had one module killed. This is just one guy....i have story's from many more.
Now i know you all love this board...i do to, issue is i don't like it killing memory, if it hasn't killed yours and you are on the 5v line, you ain't used it long enough yet....thats how I feel about the situation at the mo and im working VERYhard to help solve this problem.
All those people who are saying it has to be user error, go read on multiple forums to see what people are having issues, see how they set their rigs up and you wuill see they are just as thorough as you are and as I am.
Im going to say this again, come off the 5v line, tweak your 3.3v rail and enjoy your memory and your motherboard.
Hipro seems to think his maximizer works well and we have found the booster does also...maybe this could be another answer.
:D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Also. I had been on the 5volt feed for 3 months before my RAM died. I believe that this shows that I had some high quality PC3200 Gold VX that loved the voltage, but in the end couldn't handle the instability of the 5volt feed. I'm surprised it even lasted that long.
If you follow what I'm trying to say then there will be people who haven't yet lost their RAM with the 5volt feed but may soon (I just lost one stick of PC3200 Gold VX 5 days ago, and would have previously said that I was having no problems.....until it died)
I personally disagree bachus.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
There is something amiss here, we just don't know what it is yet.
JMO bro, but I FEEL there IS a correllation between the death and the DFI board
Whats causing it? I dunno, but I wish I did.
Peace
m
I think that DFI should have actually installed that last Capacitor instead of leaving it off like other motherboard companies do. I realize it's common practice, but because we are using the 5volt feed I think it would have been a smart choice to actually include that last 'anti-voltage spike' capacitor.
Shi(f)t..........I just realised that I'm on an AMD section forum.......... :D :slapass: :slapass: mine....... :D
I know what you are doing.......You want to pull me into AMD world........ :D
Stay for a while? You're quite welcome to stay if you want...heh :DQuote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
LMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
Ya better beat it before folks think ya actually like AMD....
Word will spread quickly my friend
:D
@bigtoe,
Maybe that's just me, but I have not seen so many people complaining about RAM (not only with DFI NF4) before Winbond UTT based sticks came out 6 months ago.
I also had two kits of UTT sticks that died same way, one stick dead after a while.... But guess what? It was on MSI K8N Neo2 ;) So, I'll just sit tight and see how this unfolds but I could bet some cash that it has something to do with RAM ;)
Winbond chips were rare before the UTT chips came out ;) and most people wont pay 300 bucks for a set of used winbond chipsQuote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark42
again, from reading a few forums, yes some people have issues, i've seen one thread, and then the guy big toe mentioned both people with like 10 sticks of dead ram. both of these guys have a set of mem die and keep throwing more sticks in not thinking maybe its the board. some boards of any brand will have a faulty part and can cause issues. no offence but if i put in 2 sticks of mem and they died, i probo would try two more, if they died aswell i would never, ever put more memory in before switching the board out. personally, i have almost nothing die, and i'm pretty rough with hardware(not rough but no antistatic precautions, carpeted room, not to carefu), some people might just be being completely idiotic with their ram, who knows.
in this thread which is aimed at a specific problem there are only a few people that have had an issue, and TWO of them used 3.2v on the 5v line, something that IIRC angry or windwithme reported as an officially stupid idea a while back in a thread just to tell us that. using anything below 3.3v is very bad, its the HARDEST setting for the motherboard to use, 4v is FAR LESS DANGEROUS for the board itself than 3.2v when using the 5v jumper.
i dunno, maybe there is an issue with the board. remember, you must think more people, on average that buy this boar,d say 50% of all people getting this board are running huge overclocks increased voltage on everything, where as say maybe 20% of asus sli users are using really high voltages, and more people are buying the dfi board, to see more issues is expected, completely, IMHO.
Some of the things i've seen friends do makes me laugh and cry at the same time, they can kill hardware with pure crazyness, someone dropped water into his case(glass over edge of table) and didn't htink to turn off computer straight away as he was mid game. once water hit the wrong part, died. shock horror. I'm just not seeing this huge number of issues that are being talked about.
i've got two boards, both at high clocks using utt, one i play about with gskill and the 3.3v jumper too. its a 24/7 rig the first is the sli version which i've had since the day it was available in the uk. its been off for about 2 days when i moved the system to uni(moved in mid year), and not an issue. i've got the ultra-d at home and had that for about 2 months, 24/7 as i leave it downloading while i'm away(uni with most ports blocked so still downloading at home).
PS, i'm making a huge assumption, but if both you guys sent the boards to me for rma'ing and told me you used 5 v jumper and 3.2v setting, i could straight up tell you it was stupid idea and ask why you would do it considering you could do that on the 3.3v rail with no risk at all, or i could give you any old line so i don't have to be rude on the phone and risk losing your business, i know which way i went more often in rma department. if you both got replacement boards even though you both went against recommended use then IMHO demanding another "fixed" board with zero proof of any problem is ridiculous, i'd be chuffed that i got a replacement in your situation.
At the mo m8 I feel board, its happening to old BH5, old CH5, UTT CH5, UTT BH5, the only modules I have seen no moans about are EB/Micron.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Issue is if you run 3.3V jumper it doesn't seem to happen...kinda weird but true.
Also Oskar does have a theory ont he cold boot issue and we should see another bios soon.
i guess we'll be testing this theory out. my UTT BH comes next week. i will run it at 3.4v continuous like i do on this classic BH. lets see if it dies while using +5.
Of course it does not happen on 3.3v, because with 3.3v source it's a lot more difficult to get more than 3.5-3.6vdimm for most of the people. Vmods are needed or adjustable PSUs. 4v option makes too many people too "voltage happy" and that leads to problems, imo. and I personally think, that Winbond-UTT chips just do not take high voltage as well as old, properly tested by in burn-in owens BH-5.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtoe
pershoot, run 3.5/3.6v , its less hard on the board, and most utt does keep scaling up to those voltages so you should get a bit more speed anyway. its safer imho.
I should have added that these users are tweaking the 3.3v rail to 3.6v and running like that for 3 months or so...so they run the same vdimm, they just do it a different way.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
you shouldnt use below 3.3 while on +5. oskar warned of this in the very beginning. if one ran below 3.3 on +5, and encountered a fault, then that would be user error (since the warning was given).Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark42
i dont feel safe running above 3.4 24/7.Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmaster
Yes you are. Can all the fanboys please just stop and wait to see how this thing plays out? In the other thread on this forum somebody posted that his old BH-5 was worknig fine for years on another board with some very high voltage, but died on DFI. And lets not forget that some people with TCCD also had this problem. And please stop blindly blaming the user.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
And one more thing, DFI most certainly used the 4V DIMM option to market the board. Back in November/December when most of the other NF4 boards were out people were waiting for DFI to come out exactly for this reason. One more time, it is a feature of the board, and I expect it to work as intended.
Once again, lets wait to see what we hear from DFI. I have to say though, the fact that DFI-Street mods are quite about this, and the fact that they are closing the threads about this left and right, doesn't inspire to much confidence.
Thank you for all of your work on this. I am glad that there is someone who acknowledges that there could be a problem with the board. I love the board too, but would like to see this issue resolved. I also agree that is seems that this happens to users who run their computer more. Mine runs 24/7. Hardy ever is turned off. I have it set up like a htpc. The wife uses it every day like a tivo. I would volunteer to help in the cold boot thread, but I rma'd my bad twinmoss ram and haven't received the new stuff yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtoe
I don't think you specified in our previous discusssion, but what was your PSU before you got that Powerstream? Was it 20 pin? I only ask because you seemed surprised when you linked to a post that says that a 24 pin PSU is required for use on the DFI board.Quote:
I don't. Many of us, including me, lost RAM while using the 5v feed even though we were only using 3.2volts and have active cooling (I had 2x80mm fans running directly on them. This is not on the user end as much as it is a glitch with the 5v feed.
ok, I've got a question regarding using the OCZ booster as a workground and possibly better solution than 5v rail, isn't the booster came with 20pin connector to "tap" onto the PSU? so what happen to those who own 24pin like the PCP&C? does the kit came with 24pin too? I'd much rather spend the 35bucks than crack open my $240 PSU and void the warranty...
isn't this a 20pin?
http://images10.newegg.com/productim...998-301-03.JPG
Did they specify that in the beginning/manual?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouchy
I dont remember that.
It was officaly released information, afterwards IIRCQuote:
Originally Posted by muzz
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben805
No 24 pin version as yet, with a Powerstream you just unhook the extra 4 pins and plug them in...next to the booster.
Now i know this does not help you but Im sure we can look into a 24pin version soon.
So you're saying it's possible to use the booster on a dfi nf4 board? What's the extra 4 pins which you talk about on the powerstream?Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtoe
its another 4 pin connector that slides on to the 20 pin power connector to make it a 24pin, mine got it, i was thinking about selling my booster after just buying this ultra-d but i might us it instead of the 5v jumper now.Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
just one question about the booster on the dfi board, i got my vx in the 2 orange slots, what configuration should i use to use the booster? which slots for the ram, and which slot for the booster?
In order to deal with OCZ support questions and for tracking purposes, could you direct your questions over at the official OCZ forums at
http://www.bleedinedge.com/
You will get all the technical questions you need there very quickly
A OCZ picture on the right of the page will take you to the support forums
Thanks
Topboy
The 24-pin requirement was mentioned by DFI long before the release of the NF4 motherboards.Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz
deception``
I have two stupid question ....
1 . How OCZ can feature 3.5V +- 5% spec for the VX series of memory ? :confused: We all know that there is no such memory chip from any vendor to provide this kind of spec for use in 7/24 enviroment ... Even the old BH5 can only handle the 3.6V absolutely maximum rating voltage , but this is absolutely maximum rating , not 7/24 working voltage guranteed ... I really think that this is some kind of risking business IMHO :nono: ...
2 . How can we be sure that the dead DIMM is really killed by 3.4V or 3.5V setting in the bios as they claimed ? Who knows what's the voltage that ever supply to the DIMM in it's lifetime of operation ??? :stick:
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmaster
was gone out for a bit. My motherboard is fine. It's my RAm that died. Yes, using the 5volt feed and only using 3.2 volts is stupid, but I never knew up until 2 weeks ago that it was actually a 5v feed. I saw it as a way of unlocking the vdimm options up to 4v, and never comprehended that it was actually using a different, and possibly less stable, power source.
Are you guys who's using 5V option cooling the heatsink on the upper right corner? It gets pretty damn hot so that's prob causing the trouble. Another thing is that some Winbond UTT is very easy to kill without proper cooling at 3.3v+. I mean, come on, they are untested. I have huge copper heatsinks on mine and a 90mm fan blowing at them to keep them cool and safe. I've been using 5v option since day one and zero prob so far.
Oh, why don't you have the bios limit voltage from 3.3v to 4v when jumper set to 5v? that way user will be forced to use 3.3v and not 3.2v
To all
Anyone who is having problems with the 5volt jumper could you please also post over at this thread please
http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12342
This may make the "Tech Support wake up
Thanks
Topboy
I'm of the opinion that we need to find out how many of the users who experienced problems (dead RAM) ran their boards for 24/7 use with the 5V jumper, and how many users who experienced problems only ran their boards periodically, for benching sessions, or minimal daily useage.
This information will almost completely clear up the "it's the end user's fault" catch-all.
I strongly suspect that it is mostly people running the 5V jumper for 24/7 use who are getting dead RAM.
Someone who benches for two hours a day, making the statement "I've been on the 5V jumper since day one without issue" does not mean as much as when a 24/7 user says the same thing - it actually even skues the example base that we have (I'm not bashing anyone :)).
DFI is a great company - but even great companies sometimes have product issues. I've had problems with DFI boards before (Went through two Infinity NF2s, one of which never even posted), namely the shoddy Vcore regulator used on their NF2 boards, that was only rated for 1.8V. That really pissed me off, and was inexcuseably cheap. They're still the best enthusiast motherboard manufacturer out there, hands down.
My point being - run your board with the 3.3V jumper tweak, overvolt your +3.3VDC VI/O rail to 3.8V, and do your VDIMM overvolts oldschool untill this is resolved. Enjoy your DFI boards, because there is NO other nForce4 motherboard as enthusiast oriented and thorough as this one is. IF you're not willing to run a +3.3VDC VI/O overvolt to get your high VDIMM, you shouldn't be running a high VDIMM in the first place :).
My $0.09.
I'd also like to add that launching a crusade on the DFI-Street forums is counter-productive at this point.
DFI reps have said several times that the issue is being seriously looked into. They have said several times that they will not deal in speculation, which is highly commendable and professional of them in this situation.
They are handling this as they should be - just look at some of the reactions in this thread and others. The second a DFI rep says something, it will get smeared all over the internet.
Couple of problems with running the booster on this board.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtoe
- 24 pin PSU
- VDIM readout does not work on the booster running 20-24 pin adapter.
Maybe someone needs to try a vio mod on this board now if jumper is in fact a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G H Z
- With an OCZ PSU, the extra four pins can still be directly plugged into the motherboard because they're seperate to begin with... another reason to use an OCZ PSU I suppose.
- No need for an adaptor with an OCZ PSU ;). Alternatively, modifiying your PSU for a seperate plug isn't that hard if you don't care about warranties.
You raise an excellent point about VI/O mods. Variable output PSUs are extremely common now, almost standard in fact.
With a simple VI/O(+3.3VDC)=VDIMM voltage modification (connect the +3.3VDC pin on the PSU header block at the rear of the motherboard to an appropriate VDIMM point), VDIMM would still be completely adjustable, completely independant of the BIOS, just via direct manipulation of the PSU's +3.3VDC rail through the built-in external rail adjustments. You want 3.6V of VDIMM, you set your +3.3VDC rail to 3.6V... and I/O components can typically handle the rail overvolt within reason :).
Might solve the cold boot issue as well, and would definitely, 100% fix the 5V jumper problems. VI/O=VDIMM mods pretty much render a motherboard's VDIMM voltage supply circuitry "harmless", as it is "unused" after such a mod.
Food for thought.
AG just replied.... :)
http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/show...6&postcount=85
Quote:
Memory Death:
We use two stages of linear regulators to generate the VDIMM on the DFI NF4 motherboard.
1st regulator from the psu’s 3.3v or 5v line to VDIMM sets the target voltage to 4.1v, or 3.2v (depending on what how the J17 jumper is configured). The 2nd regulator controls VDIMM voltage to the memory modules themselves.
Explanation as follows:
In 3.3v source jumper mode, the 1st regulator will output 3.3v to the 2nd regulator. The 2nd regulator handles the voltage output to the memory modules. (2.5v-3.2v)
In 5v source jumper mode, the 1st regulator will output 4.1v to the 2nd regulator. Then the 2nd regulator will handle the output to the memory modules. (2.5v-4.0v).
ATTENTION:
The DRAM voltage as originally supported by the spec is up to 2.85v only. Jumper J17 allows you to select beyond the defined spec. Although the function is supported (at the hardware level), selecting a higher voltage may cause unstable current supplied to the system board which may subsequently cause damage to the CPU and DIMMs
(copied from the warning sheet supplied with the DFI NF4 motherboard concerning the J17 5v jumper and also found on page 9 of later revision NF4 motherboards (A02 and later))
Using this design, the 5v source voltage will not exceed the VDIMM source from the 1st regulator (4.1v). This circuit will not supply DRAM voltage higher than 4.0V(4.1V-0.1~0.15V) no matter what kind of user error or bios error.
Using this type of linear voltage regulation is very resistant to any voltage spiking and in the DFI labs and in independent testing no spiking at the memory sockets has been observed.
To conclude, there has been no evidence that the DFI NF4 motherboard has been responsible for any memory death. You can choose to not believe this if that is what you want to do. We have done extensive testing and found no evidence that the board kills memory modules though, and that is the truth, no matter how much some of you might want to flame and shout that you 'know for sure' that the board does kill memory.
Only problem I see is IF its stated as a DFI NF4 problem, how come I know of three incidents of DFI NF3 users with cold boot/dieing sticks.
My finding...... starts as a cold boot problem then ends up a dead stick.
My :2cents: I think this will only be resolved when the maximers comes out and sticks continue to die, then at least it will rule out the M/B once and for all
oskar wu's reply:
http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/show...9&postcount=90
Ive not been affected by this problem but i know a few people here who have. I just hope that DFI figures out how to stop this problem so we dont end up with the only GREAT motherboard is existance. I read Oskar's post and it appears he has found the problem. I just hope the future DFI boards dont kill the +5V option.
If the problem comes from the DRAM not able to handle this kind of high voltage for a long time ... There must be a lot of user kill their DRAM using DFI NF4 because it's the only board currently available with easily aceess to high dram voltage :D ... But this does not mean that killing VX DRAM only exist in DFI NF4 board :nono:Quote:
Originally Posted by jiff
Maybe we need to collect more information and ask if there is any other case that user killed their VX DRAM in other plarform + some DDR booster or 3.3V DRAM mod but not with a DFI board ...
By reading what Oscar Wu wrote and Angry Games' conclusions, you will see that what I said might be very true... Winbond-UTT is weak and might not be as good as an old BH-5, throughly tested by Winbond in high-heat/high voltage owens before it leaves the fab. Most memory module manufacturers test sticks manually using special testers but only fabs have owens that heat up ICs to 60-70C and apply high voltage to simulate months of "normal use".
Like Angry Games stated, 99% of truble cases come from users with UTT based sticks, which are NOT tested in a fab and as some may have a long, high voltage life, many others may not.
That was my last :2cents: on the subject ;)
Good point and should be implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbarnet007
Besides, the only warning i have seen regards running lower volts with 5v jumper, was posted here on XS by Oscar. How would anyone guess that? I believe that this particular ability should have been mentioned in manual.. It would save many users who missed that post learning about it the hard way.
And lots of good RAM too..
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Badong
ATTENTION:
The DRAM voltage as originally supported by the spec is up to 2.85v only. Jumper J17 allows you to select beyond the defined spec. Although the function is supported (at the hardware level), selecting a higher voltage may cause unstable current supplied to the system board which may subsequently cause damage to the CPU and DIMMs
"
This is what I read from the manual I got , I think it's clear enough ... If you did not need to access voltage higher than 3.2V , why change the JP17 ? :confused:
Did you killed your VX memory with MSI NEO2 and DDR booster ? What's the voltage you set to kill your VX memory ?Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Nahh. The point was that running anything below 4v starts putting stress on regulator, the bigger the difference => bigger the stress.Quote:
Originally Posted by wtz54321
As said already, it's better run 3.6v instead lets say 3.2v. Anyways, it's a simple foolproof and could be easily implemented...
And enough quoting that statement.
I my eyes, it's in manual not because the issue on topic. Just a general warning regards running your RAM above spec. voltage - so and unexperienced user won't attempt frying his Hynix-whatever based RAM with 4 volts..
:slapass:
I agree with you completely. SOME Winbond UTT can't handle high heat for a long time underload. This is my personal experience I've killed 1 stick because I didn't put a ramsink on it. Right now I have HUGE copper heatsinks on my UTT right now and 90mm fan blowing at them with 3.35v at 263mhz. I've been running this since the beginning and no problem at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Bachus, I think you're probably right about that after all (and you've been saying it for a while too! :toast: ).Quote:
bachus_anonym
By reading what Oscar Wu wrote and Angry Games' conclusions, you will see that what I said might be very true... Winbond-UTT is weak and might not be as good as an old BH-5, throughly tested by Winbond in high-heat/high voltage owens before it leaves the fab. Most memory module manufacturers test sticks manually using special testers but only fabs have owens that heat up ICs to 60-70C and apply high voltage to simulate months of "normal use".
Like Angry Games stated, 99% of truble cases come from users with UTT based sticks, which are NOT tested in a fab and as some may have a long, high voltage life, many others may not.
That was my last on the subject
You're right, the testing standard for UTT from what we're told is just that, untested... but older BH-5 had all been tested to a standard of operation, and the chips that didn't make the cut were immediately tossed into a garbage can.
Standards being - Part can run X speed, with X timings, at X voltage, with X temperature, with stability for X amount of time.
Electron migration however, is an entirely different and quite scary beast. It was a problem with older Socket A Processors, older intel P4 chips, chips before that era as well. I'm told that the copper interconnects used in modern processors either slows down the process, or lessens the degre of damage. It is also possible that the latest generation of processors have not been overclocked/overvolted long enough for electron-migration deaths to begin occuring.
Electromigration increases the resistance of the metal interconnects within our transistor-based hardware. The transistors inside of our transistor-based hardware have a VCC (VCC = voltage high signal - "VDIMM", "VCORE", "VDD", etc. etc. - stands for a "1" in binary) tolerance rating - once this tolerance is exceeded, the VCC signal can be mistaken for VSS (voltage low signal, 0V - stands for a "0" in binary), or just fubared when the transistor is 'overwhelmed'. When interconnects within our transistor-based hardware have an increased resistance, it can mess up the VCC signal, throwing it outside of transistor tolerance. This usually degrades an overclock slowly over time, with he result that more and more VCC is required to maintain previous frequency overclocks.
Electromigration can also cause broken interconnects. That means dead hardware.
Oskar said that the transistors (and as such, the interconnects) within his "dead" memory were fully functional. It makes sense though, and electromigration could be accellerated in the lower-quality ("unlucky") UTT BH/CH memory ICs as a result of poor (NO) standards testing at the fabrication plant.
Until now , we can only assume that two possible reason that cause the UTT VX dram dead quicky
1 . Unexpected High Voltage or spike in DFI NF4 board to kill the DRAM
2 . Electromigration effect
If it's case 1 , there should be no other board + dram mod or ddr booster kill the dram since they are not powered by 5v rail as DFI NF4 ...
If it's case 2 , there should be some other MB to cause the the dram dead after a time period ...
I think we need to collect more data about what kind of dram being killed , and what's the MB kill it , also the voltage set to kill it( in DFI NF4 or DDR booster or DRAM mod in other board)
Then we can see what's the most possible reason to cause these dram dead ...
We know that it isn't situation #1. A DFI rep just said that the boards do not kill memory, or spike VDIMM.
That's enough for me, to rule out #1.
That leaves electromigration and memory integrity.
Migration on two week old Ram, I don't think so :slapass: In fact, I'm quite surprised to see Oskar mention this as a possible cause.
Put me booster in, switched back to 3,3v line and its working fine. I never had problems (using the 5v rail from day 1) but like this better for a while :D
Well , that's what DFI rep says , maybe there are someboards did have this spike voltage that he did not know ... So we need to collect more data before going to the final conclusion ... Maybe both happened ,,, who knows :confused: :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by felinusz
Hmm, anyone know of CH-5 dieing on this board. I do agree that the ram is dieing due to high volts. I mean any voltage over 3v is nothing to joke with. Think to back in the day when the onyl way to get these volts was a mod. When we killed ram back then did we blame it on the motherboard? We blamed it on the ram or high voltage/poor cooling.
I dunno. After spending much time here over the last 5 days I'm leaning towards the theory that there is an issue with the 5v feed (other than the use of those higher voltages).
Read this if you haven't already.....
http://www.bleedinedge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10555
I sure hope not because my CH-5 loves volts :(
that's fine, just stay on the 3.3volt feed and either use a DDR booster, or a PSU with adjustable rails to raise vdimm above 3.2volts (using this 'mod' http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=61632).Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD-me
So i can use up to 3.2v using the stock bios? All i need is 3.2v thanks :D
erm. overclocking, for most of us DFI NF4 owners, has been extremely tempermental with the "Stock BIOS" (1/25), you should seriously consider flashing to either 316, 331, or 510...
http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/other/114 (just rename the BIOS file to NF4LD310 and then you can use the Diamond Flash Utility (I've done it twice now, and works beautifully).
Yeah, you're completely right about that. Electromigration, in a processor for example, typically takes a long time (months-years) to manifest itself, and that's with a huge overvolt and high temperatures.Quote:
G H Z
Migration on two week old Ram, I don't think so In fact, I'm quite surprised to see Oskar mention this as a possible cause.
It also doesn't kill hardware immediately. Typically, it manifests itself through a very slow 'degradation' of your overclock, with more and more voltage required to maintain stability, because of the increased interconnect resistances.
It's possible in 6 month old memory... but two week old memory? Preposterous, as you say.
I think Oskar is implying that the electromigration effect is somehow messing with the RAM's ability to be recongized, and boot with an overclock. He mentions that the memory he tested was fully stable in memtest86 - complete transistor functionality. The issue seems to lie with... memory detection, or memory VCC signal strength. *shrug*
Angry_Games' personal opinion appears to be on the UTT memory as well.
http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12687Quote:
Angry_Games
UTT memory is based on the Winbond CH-5 die, which is a .15micron process. The true BH-5 dies are .175micron...a lot thicker (tho the numbers might not seem like much).
the thinner CH-5 die could possibly be 'weaker' when it comes to stress, voltage, and heat and cause either electron migration or the module to fail completely.
BH-5 with the thicker die doesn't seem to have this problem (which is why 99% of the modules that seem to have failed are UTT, which is an untested CH-5 IC). Also keep in mind that the module might not really be dead...but changed (from heat/stress/voltage) to an extent that the original default properties are no longer valid (ie it might have booted @ 2.6v/200Mhz but now it requires 3.0v @ 200Mhz to even boot).
again, keep in mind that these are my personal theories and are not scientific in any sense (since i am not an engineer of any sort, just a dude who is logical and likes to read a lot and hates being stumped by a problem).
You've got to give the DFI reps credit. I feel that they have handled this extremely well, in a very professional manner.
ddr booster works fine on the board, ram is in yellow slots, booster in dimm2, bios 510-2 set at 2.5v dimm, 4 pin power strainght to mobo, and using the booster for the regular 20 pins. bios tracks the voltage increase i do with the booster even tho set at 2.5v.
Electromigration does exist BUT......Can someone explain why my Rams 5 x BH-6 and 1 x BH-5 working FINE since year 2002-3 ........NEVER BELOW 3.35Vdimm.....WHY my 6 Rams DIDN'T loose NOT even 1 MHz overclockability ALL these years......ALL of them working most of the time 24/7.......4 of them real 24/7@3.35Vdimm and @ 3.45Vdimm and other 2 for benching AND crunching also (SETI - D2OL) 24/7 @ 3.45Vdimm......Did I got the "golden samples" ?.......I don't think so ......ALL of them are Kingston VALUE Rams and were bought about 30 - 35 Euros each..... ;)
Where is MY electromigration?.....PLEASE give me some electromigration too, so as to see how it is/fills.....Thanks.......! :D
EDIT: my 2 quorters.......He,he,he.......All of you have given some cents in this thread, so I desided to give something too..... :D
You're using BH-5/BH-6, not totally untested Winbond UTT.Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
I have 3 sets of 2x256MB BH-5:
First (Mushkin LvLII) have been used in my NF2 for over 16 months now with 3.5v constantly, as NF7-S is vio=vdimm modded.
Second (Kingston) was in my Neo2, abused with a Booster and 3.7v for 6 months.
Third, (Mushkin LvLII) in DFI NF4 and earlier in Neo2. 6hrs a day, 3.8vdimm for the last 5 months...
No problems whatsoever so far... I think it's because BH-5 was throughly tested in fabs before module manufacturers bought it. Winbond UTT has not been tested at all by fabs...
I had 2 sets of UTT... Both went belly up after 2-4 weeks of using it on Neo2.
It must be those greek gods looking down on you my freind....;)
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