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Hi Guys
Bought this board yesterday (SO much better than the Epox dodgy voltage board)
Only problem I have is the X 9 multiplier.
Prime stable @ 10 X 230 1.1……prime stable @ 8.5 X 260 1.1(memory limit)…… at 9 X 250 1.1 locks up
So the memory handles 260
The chipset handles 260
The chip does 2.3 GHz
But not all together
Any advice I would be grateful
Cheers Jeff
:p:
Your memory isn't running 260 MHz here, it's running 221 MHz iirc.Quote:
Originally posted by jiff
8.5 X 260 1.1(memory limit)
I'm currently running at 250 HTT x 10 multi with the ram 1:1. Using the 3x HTT Bus speed.
Ram is at 3,4,4,7 timings which is ok for me for now.
Using 2.7v on the ram ,and 1.7 on the cpu.
Nick
Before you grab your iron to put another mod on please grab your multimeter first. Measure from pin 8 to the spot you want to solder on and check if the resistance is 0 ohm. Only in that case you will have a direct trace to pin 8 of the chip which is the feedback pin that can be used for controlling vcore.Quote:
Originally posted by SmokeyTheBandit
Well i stole a pic of the k8v mod wich is the same as far as i can see.
I soldered a 10k pot to the resistor with the red dot.
It has to be soldered to the blue dot though ..... :stick:
If someone can test this :toast:
If I'm not mistaken you should use either a 20K or 50K for that mod since it's probally the same as on the K8V ;)
Erm 1:1 means no divider ie HTT 260 memory 260 8.5 multi cpu @ 2210Quote:
Originally posted by alz85
Your memory isn't running 260 MHz here, it's running 221 MHz iirc.
Haven't you read about the glitch with the half multipliers ?Quote:
Originally posted by jiff
Erm 1:1 means no divider ie HTT 260 memory 260 8.5 multi cpu @ 2210
260 MHz / 10 * 8.5 = 221 MHz
cant say I have, cpuz and clockgen both say 260Quote:
Originally posted by alz85
Haven't you read about the glitch with the half multipliers ?
260 MHz / 10 * 8.5 = 221 MHz
that's why they call it a glitch, cpuz and clockgen report the wrong value.
got any ideas as to what to use to find out for sure?Quote:
Originally posted by alz85
that's why they call it a glitch, cpuz and clockgen report the wrong value.
Just try 8 x 260 MHz.Quote:
Originally posted by jiff
got any ideas as to what to use to find out for sure?
good man thanks for that, memory didnt boot @260, least now I know why I had a problem with X 9Quote:
Originally posted by alz85
Just try 8 x 260 MHz.
Thanks again Jeff
On 260 1:1 you must be near to this .......
V core vmod done successfully now. 50k 20 turn is in between the solder pad mentioned above and ground point. (Used one of 3 pin header so I can take it off on fly) The solder pad above is directly connected to pin 8. Haven't tried how far I can up the volt yet but sitting at +0.1v now and will start testing oc'ing now. stability seems fine at 1.8v (would be bios 1.85v) and stock speed.
UPDATE: Vcore mod is working just fine (heats up CPU nicely). However, my particular CPU was at end of its potential already so no voltage seem to matter unless some better cooling is in order (already on Koolance exos so only thing that will really eek out performance would be phase).
Didn't cost me anything and was kind of exciting to try :) BTW, a hint for some of you guys who keep case closed... :P You can cut the wire of those audio cable (extra ones) put it with switch and put it on PCI slot holder. Connect the corresponding part to CMOS jumper and voila, you got cmos reset switch right at back of your PC :P (been meaning to do this for months but never got around till today)
Did you soldered to the blue dot as shown on my picture a few posts back.:)Quote:
Originally posted by jinu117
V core vmod done successfully now. 50k 20 turn is in between the solder pad mentioned above and ground point. (Used one of 3 pin header so I can take it off on fly) The solder pad above is directly connected to pin 8. Haven't tried how far I can up the volt yet but sitting at +0.1v now and will start testing oc'ing now. stability seems fine at 1.8v (would be bios 1.85v) and stock speed.
UPDATE: Vcore mod is working just fine (heats up CPU nicely). However, my particular CPU was at end of its potential already so no voltage seem to matter unless some better cooling is in order (already on Koolance exos so only thing that will really eek out performance would be phase).
Didn't cost me anything and was kind of exciting to try :) BTW, a hint for some of you guys who keep case closed... :P You can cut the wire of those audio cable (extra ones) put it with switch and put it on PCI slot holder. Connect the corresponding part to CMOS jumper and voila, you got cmos reset switch right at back of your PC :P (been meaning to do this for months but never got around till today)
Can i break in with an untopic question? I'm thinking about buying the K8N but wonder how the onboard soundcard is? Today i have an old soundblaster live but is the included board better than my old?
Aye the blue dot is same as pin 8 (there seem to be a trace on it and I confirmed). The leg was so small I either had to get $15 micro smd grabber or just do solder :P Pad is tons easier in this case. (In retrospect, should have bought micro smd grabber while back instead of smd grabber since more and more components are coming in with this really tiny legs now).Quote:
Originally posted by SmokeyTheBandit
Did you soldered to the blue dot as shown on my picture a few posts back.:)
Hi
Smokeybandit did u ever get the Vdimm done ?, if u did plz email a pic to me or upload here :).
Edit: Ups my bad reread the thread and pics were allready here sry :), im gonna try and see what these ballistix are capable off with a little more vdimm than 2.7volts.
Menty
Just got my system up and running tonight. K8N-E/3200+ (Newcastle). So far (with Bios 1004) I'm at 2420 mhz on stock voltage/cooler. I just set the overclock option in the BIOS to 20% and let it run from there. Nothing else touched.
First system with Raptor HD as well. God these drives are fast. Computer boots from BIOS to XP login screen in under 15 seconds! :) Been running Prime 95 for about 5 hours now.
Just out of curiousity, how many people are getting stock coolers with the copper bottom? I've built a few Newcastle 3200+ systems now and have gotten a mix of two different coolers. One is all aluminum and the other has a copper bottom. The cooler I have has the copper bottom.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~overclocker/2420mhz.jpg
http://home.cogeco.ca/~overclocker/220memory.jpg
Yet to see one with copper bottom after 4 CPUs... (3200+)... strange.
Never seen 1 with a copper bottom. Must be new model ;)
Where's my bios with more volts? Ehehe.
Hi
Well i tried a couple of those bios tools none of them could open the bioses, so well have to hope one of the bios gurus will look into it :).
Menty
;)Quote:
Originally posted by IvanAndreevich
Where's my bios with more volts? Ehehe.
chr
Are you onto something there?
All
Hmm.. 240 HTT / 200 mem @ 5-2-2-3.0 is faster than 267 HTT / 217 mem 6-3-3-3.0. I need some more volts, damn it.
Well guys looks like asus made the change allot of people suggested.
Bios 1005 is released :)
In this bios the vdimm is up to 2.8V wich is still far to low if i can help it.
But absolutely a step in the right way :)
Eh?
I've not got 2.8v in mine?
I've just re-downloaded, and re-flashed my board with 1005, and still only got 2.5, 2.6 and 2.7 for the ddr voltage?
Where've you had yours from?
Nick
Nick, my guess is you have a rev 1.04 board like me. The higher Vdimm is only for the rev 1.05 boards.
Guess we are left in the cold here by Asus ! :mad:
It is indeed a Rev. 1.04 board, had it the day they came out.
I wasn't aware there was a Rev. 1.05 out yet, had heard no reports of one, or any changes at all.
Oh well, I'm going to get the new DFI S754 when it's out in the next few weeks, so the Asus will be sold then. It's just not up to overclocking, at stock it's great but nothing more.
Nick
Oh nice i didnt even know there was a rev. 1.05 .... but heej the soldering iron can even supply far more vdimm :smileysexQuote:
Originally posted by mouzel
Nick, my guess is you have a rev 1.04 board like me. The higher Vdimm is only for the rev 1.05 boards.
Guess we are left in the cold here by Asus ! :mad:
So who needs asus :)
I just hope the HTT will go higher because i cant get higher than 11x271 (LDT 3X) stable @ 1.74V .....
Can pifast at max 272 but higher is not possible not even with 1.85 Vcore (0.1V increase for 1 HTT :stick: ) and LDT @ 1X/2X
I can run upto 3100 mhz but not program stable .....
SmokeyTheBandit
Damn I have Rev 1.04 as well. What the heck did they change on the PCB in 1.04 -> 1.05?! Oh well, gonna reflash anyway.
Ok, how about some bios modder make the BIOS allow 2.8V VDIMM on K8N-E Deluxe Rev 1.04??
I can't find a REV 1005 on their site. Is it possible they took it down due to people having problems with not getting higher vdimm? It would have been nice for Asus to allow atleast 2.9 volts in the BIOS.
Try here:
ftp://ftp.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/sock754/K8N-E_DX/
Or here:
ftp://ftp.asus.com.tw/pub/ASUS/mb/sock754/K8N-E_DX/
Or top item here for description:
http://usa.asus.com/support/download...K8N-E%20Deluxe
;)
Nick
hopefully asus will not leave ppl with Rev 1.04 out in the cold as far as the higher vdimm for Rev 1.05
Nem...thanks for the links.
Just popped open my case. Rev 1.04 :(
Oh well, I guess I'll just buy an Overclockerz ddr voltage booster.
Let's email them. I mean seriously it's not possible that the 1.04 rev doesn't support 2.8V.
I tried the OCZ DDR Booster and had problems with it. I've nw found out thst you can only use 1 stick of DDR if you are using the Booster.Quote:
Originally posted by freeloader
Nem...thanks for the links.
Just popped open my case. Rev 1.04 :(
Oh well, I guess I'll just buy an Overclockerz ddr voltage booster.
Just so you know.
Nick
I can get mine up to 270-268 on the HTT but i'm i need of some new memory, i read that 3700EB is better then Ballistix pc4000 but the price difference is huge.
Which would you choose :
2x512MB PC4000 Ballistix 290e or so incl shipping
2x512MB PC3700EB OCZ 390e incl shipping
I can't make up my mind about this, i want that 268 1:1 with decent timmings :D
With my current 2x512MB DS BH5 i can only get around 180mhz on the mem or 225 2-2-2-5-1 with a single stick so that's v bad, does any1 want to buy this ? :p:
Wait wait... I don't think anyone really test PC4000 ballistix... I only tried 3200 myself :P I should try... eh?Quote:
Originally posted by Subsequence
I can get mine up to 270-268 on the HTT but i'm i need of some new memory, i read that 3700EB is better then Ballistix pc4000 but the price difference is huge.
Which would you choose :
2x512MB PC4000 Ballistix 290e or so incl shipping
2x512MB PC3700EB OCZ 390e incl shipping
I can't make up my mind about this, i want that 268 1:1 with decent timmings :D
With my current 2x512MB DS BH5 i can only get around 180mhz on the mem or 225 2-2-2-5-1 with a single stick so that's v bad, does any1 want to buy this ? :p:
I had the Ballistix PC4000 - 2x 512Mb sticks.
I got up to 240HTT with 2.7v, using 2.5,3,3,7 timings. But would not got above that speed even if I relaxed the timings.
Nick
how can u supply ur chip with 1.85vcore?? :confused: my bios only allows me 2 go up2 1.75 (bios 1004)Quote:
Originally posted by SmokeyTheBandit
Oh nice i didnt even know there was a rev. 1.05 .... but heej the soldering iron can even supply far more vdimm :smileysex
So who needs asus :)
I just hope the HTT will go higher because i cant get higher than 11x271 (LDT 3X) stable @ 1.74V .....
Can pifast at max 272 but higher is not possible not even with 1.85 Vcore (0.1V increase for 1 HTT :stick: ) and LDT @ 1X/2X
I can run upto 3100 mhz but not program stable .....
shigs
Smokey's been pioneering the volt mods for this board,
So it's not a bios setting, it's a hard mod on the board itself.
Nick
is that 50k resistor set @ 50k then mate?Quote:
Originally posted by jinu117
V core vmod done successfully now. 50k 20 turn is in between the solder pad mentioned above and ground point
shigs
Thought "jinu117" managed to use 2 sticks? be nice to know, thinking of buying one. I can run my ballastix in slot 2 and 3 with no problems atm.Quote:
Originally posted by Nem
I tried the OCZ DDR Booster and had problems with it. I've nw found out thst you can only use 1 stick of DDR if you are using the Booster.
Just so you know.
Nick
Anyone reached close to 300 HTT on this board, with voltmods if need be?
Yeah bit involving but here are the pics.Quote:
Originally Posted by jiff
http://upload.krazywulph.net/./userf...7/IM004411.JPG
http://upload.krazywulph.net/./userf...7/IM004412.JPG
http://upload.krazywulph.net/./userf...7/IM004413.JPG
http://upload.krazywulph.net/./userf...7/IM004414.JPG
As for 300 HTT, I stopped at 290 in fear of corrupting OS :P Was there any volt mod for chipset on this board available? Not that I think I am limited in FSB with that much FSB :P
AnandTech finally has a review of the K8N-E (date of article is 9/14):
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2206
Maybe Asus will read it and do something about the memory voltages. These are quotes from the various sections of the article:
"We were more than a bit surprised, however, to find the uneven range of adjustment options on the K8N-E. Perhaps this is a concession to the K8N-E appearing late in the 754 cycle, but we were particularly dismayed by memory voltage adjustments that top out at 2.7V. This is not even adequate for some of the best-performing memory on the market when you use 2 or more DIMMs at DDR400. Some of the fastest current memory requires 2.8V with 2 DIMMs at DDR400."
"Except for the inadequate memory voltages available, the overclocking controls are OK, if not noteworthy. The CPU voltage is wider than what we see on many competing boards, and the 200 to 300 CPU adjustments are average. Asus did not include any chipset voltage adjustments at all on the K8N-E, a feature that many will miss. Also, the HT range only extends to 4X in large 1X increments - a range to 5X like many competitors with finer 0.5X adjustments would have been useful. It was good to see Asus paying more attention to the FID/VID ratios, where finer 0.5X adjustments will be appreciated by any enthusiast."
"All-in-all, the K8N-E is a really mixed bag, with some adjustments that are exemplary, and others, missing or downright crude. With the attention that Asus has lavished on their VIA-chipset Athlon 64 boards, you have to wonder what they were thinking when designing the K8N-E. As you will see in our benchmark results, this lack of consistent OC controls with broad ranges is really a shame, since the Asus K8N-E is a fast 754 board.at stock speeds."
"The Asus K8N-E is also a surprisingly decent overclocker with 2 DIMMs, but the extremely limited memory voltage range is a serious problem for the Asus. Most of the fastest DDR400 that we have for testing cannot even be set at specification in the Asus, since manufacturers are specifying voltages around 2.8V for the latest Samsung TCCD memory."
One final quote that I fail to understand adequately as I never really thought about hard disk controllers having much to do with OCing a PC:
"The decision by Asus to use Silicon Image SATA instead is really a drawback in overclocking. Whether using the 2 nVidia SATA channels or any of the 4 Sil3114 channels, the highest overclock that we could achieve with our standard SATA drive was 230, much lower than some other nF3-250 boards. When using an IDE drive, the K8N-E fared better, reaching a stable 260 FSB at 1:1 before failing boot. While this is a much better overclock, it is still below the performances of the DFI, MSI, Epox, and Chaintech 754 boards that we have tested."
Anyone have comments about this controller issue?
I'm running 3xHTT@ 290 with the NF3 native SATA. With 4xHTT it barely makes it to 230 FSB. Is 4xHTT and more than 230 FSB possible with PATA ?Quote:
Anyone have comments about this controller issue?
Another issue:
My first Dimm slot is 10 Mhz less stable then when I run RAM in slot 2 or 3. Maybe some of you experienced this also ?
I sent an e-mail to wesley and got respond back on his review. If you noticed the FSB stoppage, he only tested on 1:1 setting. Now... makes you wonder with 2.7v limitation what some memory can do eh? On my setup I go easily to 290FSB. (3x HTT)
His review has some merits such as lack of VDIMM, but the SATA issue IDE issue with OC'ing leaves something interesting to me as I have been running 2 SATA HDD on native channel @ 290FSB ever since I read the review.
230->290... quite a bit of disparity eh?
I have to say I found the same problem with high FSB, over 240 FSB I just get random lockups. I have done Vdimm mod, tryed BH5 and Ballistix but no joy of 240.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
Even tryed both raids Nforce and Silicon, The Ballistix is doing 240 2.5.2.2.11, but anything over it will randomly lockup no matter what timings I use. Shame I havent an IDE driver to try
Doing 299HTT here with scsi and ide and it seems stable so far only my mem needs some tweaking still.
300HTT seems to mess with the gb lan tho.
Beta bios 1006.005 arrived.
ftp://ftp.asuscom.de/pub/ASUSCOM/BIO.../K8N-E_Deluxe/
So far I didn't notice any difference with the 1005 version. Probably support for the new D0 steppings I suppose.
I take that comment about that nic issue back and throw my switch in the trash :p:
I think i'll wait for the final to see the changelog, i'm happy with the way it runs for now.
Ok, so I just flashed bios 1006.08 Beta. Anyone know what's new in it?
Dont know wat's new ,but it seems ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanAndreevich
Kan run 300 htt stable now , 3 X LDT and 5/6 mem devider (240 mhz) (krap twinmos 512 mb set :D )
Next week som Gskill pc 4800 1/1 action a hope :banana:
Did you get any improvement on the HTT from previos version?
Now it is stable at 300 mhz ,1005 did 285 mhz stable .Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanAndreevich
At 3 X LDT 310 mhz (930 mhz ldt) my cpu reboot the system .
At 2 X LDT 270 mhz :reboot.
At 1 X LDT 270 mhz :reboot
At 4 X LDT 240 mhz : reboot
Seems a64 newcastle only work corectly at 4X and 3 X LDT multiplier :rolleyes:
Woo-hoo that's great. Increases are always nice.
Smolly
Hm, can you check whether it's stable to higher HTT @ 4x multi as well then?
10 u prime 95 . no problem .Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanAndreevich
Old twinmos -twinmos do 240 max 2.5-3-3-8 3V 5/6 devider . :mad:
gskill pc 4800 ordered for 1/1 devider testing . :toast:
Htt MP = 3
So far :
http://users.pandora.be/smolly/k8n-e/MEM/fsb%20300.JPG
Wow that's a nice chip - doing 2.4 Ghz @ 1.45V.. Once you get your GSKILL, post some results.
Look at asus probe , 1.56 V :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanAndreevich
result pifast 303 mhz 5/6 mem devider .
http://users.pandora.be/smolly/k8n-e/pifast/45.69.JPG
monday i have gskill pc 4800 for 1/1 bench ;)
Cpu kan do 2850 mhz on 1.75 V (bios) on custom phase change ;)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...e+change+works
[Edit] wrong , t'his do 303 mhz htt :toast: http://users.pandora.be/smolly/k8n-e/pifast/46.92.JPG
Smolly
Hm, fooled by clockgen. Still, a nice chip! Mine needs 1.7V to get that high :(
What kind of temps are you getting? I am going back to water today, hopefully.
Max mobo Vcore 1.75 V Cpu 2866 mhz stable cpu temp stressed -19°CQuote:
Originally Posted by IvanAndreevich
Idle -33°C
A need vcore vmod :toast:
http://img118.exs.cx/img118/413/prime95_k8ne_vcore.gif
And I was wondering why the hell isn't this CPU doing 2.5 Ghz.. why the heck is it dropping so much? That's with Enermax 460W.
Anyone else getting CRAP cpu volts like I am on this board?? My 12V rail is like 11.7 - what a POS. Does anyone think a PSU with adjustable rails would fix it?
Update on my situation. I got Antec True Control 550W and now have the 12V @ just over 12V. The CPU voltage is much more stable now - within 1.71-1.74V under load. Didn't seem to help overclocking, though :(
CPU: AMD 64 3000+
Motherboard: Asus K8N-E
Graphics Card: ATI 9800 Pro
Memory: 1GB KingMax 466
Hard Drive: 160GB WB
Cooling: Venus 12
Power Supply: 480W Thermaltake
Sound Card: Audigy 2 Platinum
Monitor: HP75
Case: Modded
Operating System: Windows XP Pro SP2
Mouse: MX700
Keyboard: Logictech
SpeedsCPU Speed - Stock: 2000
CPU Speed - Overclocked: 2100
Graphics Card - Core Speed - Stock: same
Graphics Card - Core Speed - Overclocked: same
Graphics Card - Memory Speed - Stock: same
Graphics Card - Memory Speed - Overclocked: same
Memory Speed - Stock : same
Memory Speed - Overclocked : same
Memory Timings: 2.5 3 3 8
TemperaturesCPU Temperature - Idle: 38
CPU Temperature - Load: 44-48
Case Temperature: 30
Benchmarks3DMark03 Score: 6200
3DMark05 Score: 2650
SiSoft Sandra 2004 - CPU Score: -
SiSoft Sandra 2004 - RAM Score: -
AquaMark3 Score: 42600
Super Pi Score: 41
PCMark04 Score: -
system specs are above
i am new here and i say u guys rock other sites sucks bigtime :P
okay time to ask question and give advice.
bios 1.6 sucks go with 1.5
now my question is
1)i have kingmax 466 2 x 512 mb (http://www.kingmax.com/product/pro_color_466.htm)
what is the best timing for this ram?
i can't do 2 x x x the system will not boot and i need to do batt thing :(
any ideas? volts? what should be the mhz and setting in bios for this?
2)i can't hit 240FSB i dono why system boots but no windows
i have no control over htt in bios since i have ver 1.4 so i can't change it like 800 x 2 or like 833 x 2. should i even do 240? with regards to number 3?
what ways i should do it volts and multi?
3)i am running now at no OC with 41(4000rpm) and mobo is 35. my cpu cooler is okay i used AS5 as well but what to do to make it lower? what is a good way or product for the chipset??
4)ram skins is needed? if so which one?
5) last i need a good cooler for my 9800pro what u guys say?
thanx guys so much
i am happy to be here
:toast: :banana:
amir911
>>bios 1.6 sucks go with 1.5
Why? I didn't notice _any_ difference at all.
>>what is the best timing for this ram?
That depends on the RAM.
>>2)i can't hit 240FSB i dono why system boots but no windows
Drop HT multi from 4x to 3x.
Welcome to the sickness.
Bios 1007.001 Beta released :toast:
Download: http://www.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/sock...X/1007-001.zip
Windows XP 64 bit now installs on Rev 1.04 :banana4:
maybe this is fool question,but how to run FSB at 5:3 divider on this board?
that Memory clock in chipset configuration bios is setting for divider?
so far with this board my system
A64 2800+
Corsair twinx 3200 /1gb 3-4-4-11
run at 260x9 (stable)
270x9 just for bechmark
@ivan how the result use beta bios 1007.001
:banana:
>>that Memory clock in chipset configuration bios is setting for divider
Yes.
>>@ivan how the result use beta bios 1007.001
I flashed it but didn't really try anything yet. For a while, CPU voltage seemed to be more stable with this bios. However, I am not so sure anymore. I can now run 240x10 @ 1.675 in bios, where as before it would even crash prime after 10 hours at that speed @ 1.700. Maybe this is because I switched my PSU - not sure.
If everyone could check their CPU voltage fluctuation and see if there is an improvement, that would be cool.
i want to buy the K8N-E Dlx!
i have an A64 3000+ NC running with 2400mhz @ default-vcore and 2x 512MB A-DATA PC4000 (2.5-3-3-5 @ 2.6V)...
does COOL ´N´QUIET go with my config?
my DFI does it only with 1x 512MB (2400€1.5V, 1200@1.05V)...
is there the known SATA-bug when the HTT is >= 240mhz?
it's a very stable boardQuote:
Originally Posted by CM50K
but if u want to oc..
you're better with the dfi lanparty
asus forgot some important oc-options...(vdimm is too low,no adjustable chipset voltage,...)
although,i'm very happy with my board :)
greetz
Has anyone tested out the latest beta bios?
1008.004
http://www.asus.com/support/download...04.zip~zaqwedc
no...
tell me if someone tested it yet :)
i have bios 1007.004 (bèta) and i'm very happy 'bout that bios :)
greetz
CnQ works only after you go to www.amd.com to download the latest driver. I think it's Dec/04. I got it working now and it's great. Most of the time the CPU is at 1GHz. I don't get the whole O/C (I have that too) nonsense ;) Btw this mobo is very stable.Quote:
Originally Posted by brechtvm
1008 final is out, I tested it but it seems that the guys removed the settings for mem timings !!! I switched back to 1006 then ...