You guys should use solder as a TIM, man, that would work so well if the core could take the temps for a split second. That would be second to nona as far as TIMs go.
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You guys should use solder as a TIM, man, that would work so well if the core could take the temps for a split second. That would be second to nona as far as TIMs go.
Static charge!! @ 275 psi static. @180 psi Head operating with 10 psi suction. on both upper stages...Quote:
Originally posted by captaincascade
-150c may be to cold. seemed so to me.
2 words chilly.........expansion tanks!
so it runs?
i thought it was still being built?
that must be a hell of a cap tube.
doesnt intel use solder under the IHS on some of the newest P4's?Quote:
Originally posted by Slickthellama
You guys should use solder as a TIM, man, that would work so well if the core could take the temps for a split second. That would be second to nona as far as TIMs go.
No captube and these are the values of the last three cascades I built, no capillary tubes fully adjustable loading and temperature control on the fly..
Actually I polish both the processor and block so that when you set the block on the processor and lift (with no grease) the block picks up the processor... so very little greas is needed.Quote:
Originally posted by Slickthellama
You guys should use solder as a TIM, man, that would work so well if the core could take the temps for a split second. That would be second to nona as far as TIMs go.
about TIM's... im doing a small research on using cryo oil.... so far works very good, gonna test it @ -40C, right now it performs like ceramique
I think the IC7 is better when the mobo becomes the limiting factor, vcore regulator + mosfets seem more robust than Asus. Just a retail non-manufacturer modded board, my 3.2E grabs a 5101Mhz screenie at -100C, and a 4.94 Superpi run.
http://bravo.ausgamers.com/lardarse/lard/5101.JPG
http://bravo.ausgamers.com/lardarse/lard/4948spi.JPG
I have been saying that for 3 weeks now :toast:Quote:
Originally posted by pc ice
i cant wait to get all my studying and tests done so i can get back to biulding my project's and overclock some more...
the only thing that i have to study lately
is refrigeration.
but you got stable with which clock ???Quote:
Originally posted by LardArse
I think the IC7 is better when the mobo becomes the limiting factor, vcore regulator + mosfets seem more robust than Asus. Just a retail non-manufacturer modded board, my 3.2E grabs a 5101Mhz screenie at -100C, and a 4.94 Superpi run.
http://bravo.ausgamers.com/lardarse/lard/5101.JPG
http://bravo.ausgamers.com/lardarse/lard/4948spi.JPG
see ya
If you're talking about Prime95s and games, I do not run those, I don't think anyone with a cascade use them for gaming or folding and stuff.
its almost weekend :D ...how the -150C project progressing
On hold, I am working on a cascade GPU.
anything colder than -120c is really a pain in the as, though im sure you will all want to learn that the hard way. Personaly i dont think its really worth the effort. i have gotten to -152c though it wasnt very stable. as you know, one of the reasons we use refrigeration systems as aposed to ln2, is the stability. i have down sized my operations. in an effort to build a stable, happy, and healthy -100to-115c system for our purposes. no more chasing rainbows. if its not stable, its almost not worth mentioning. though some may beg to differ.
she will be a happy little beast :D
Well I am shooting for -178 with a controlled atmosphere chamber and a cold trap to keep it there. This is the half power point of CMOS, we should see signifacant increases in speed The current research indicates increases of 100% at these temperatures and that is switching speeds... Who Knows. Worth a shot... So you been there impart more wisdom please!
if your going to use a cold trap to reduce moisture, it is necasary that the cold trap be significantly colder than the area you wish to reduce condensation. maybe just hot air around your evap would do it. i thought about the cold trap idea, just seemed like a waste to have a colder cold trap than a cpu evap.
dont get me wrong, go for it! somebodys gotta!
Actually don't you reach a point where there cannot be any more moisture in the air? i twill al condense at a certian point so if we hade a finite atmosphere and no permiation then we woulb condense all available moisture in teh cold trap. and if we had any leaks.... The reason this works is the TD between the atmosphere surrounding the board and the coldtraap..
Why not just get rid of the air? Replace it with dry nitrogen.
Exactly we use of the trap.. now we cool the nitrogen while insuring that no leakes in the system will cause problems. Simply if we hava air that is a sublimation temperature, this is where the moisture in the air goes directly into a solid state to a liquid state, where the moisture is condensing onto a surface at -100 and we insulate the evap head so that its exposed surface is above the dew point created by the cold trap, them no condensation will appear on the mobo.
ok well as long as you have it insulated and there isnt any surface area exposed that is colder than your cold trap. you will be ok.
why dont you just build the dam lyophilizer and get it over with. lol :D
chilly , are you familliar with the process of lyophilization? (freeze drying)same idea basicly as your doin, kinda,. only they use a vacuum pump. and they purge dry nitrogen over the product to aid in sublimation. that and the word coldtrap is replaced with the word condenser. I work on these suckers all the time. if anyone ever asks you to work on one... Run Like Hell!
I have like 5 gmp lyopholizers that are my baby's at amgen. no one else is alowed to touch these 1.5 million dollar machines.
lol, and they think i know what im doin... hahahah.
lol j/k
@ chilly1 : with what are u isolating ypur evaps ?
blown up my first board with 8, but i forgot the reason :(Quote:
Originally posted by chilly1
Actually I used to blow up boards and bricks when I was 7 and when I was ten I launched my first 50 gallon drum.
And after this experience I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, took a few weeks for the eyebrows to grow back.
Actually im 14 and starting to build my first cascade after a long long offline time :/ I hope some off you remember me.
Maybe throw some dessicant in there for good measure?Quote:
Exactly we use of the trap.. now we cool the nitrogen while insuring that no leakes in the system will cause problems. Simply if we hava air that is a sublimation temperature, this is where the moisture in the air goes directly into a solid state to a liquid state, where the moisture is condensing onto a surface at -100 and we insulate the evap head so that its exposed surface is above the dew point created by the cold trap, them no condensation will appear on the mobo.
Closed sell neoprene foam. Assembled with solvent/glue. 3m 2229 mastic tape for seal. Nylon mounting hardware..Quote:
Originally posted by p4z1f1st
@ chilly1 : with what are u isolating ypur evaps ?
chilly1, How thickness the neoprene is ?Quote:
Originally posted by chilly1
Closed sell neoprene foam. Assembled with solvent/glue. 3m 2229 mastic tape for seal. Nylon mounting hardware..
Should this type of insulation (solvent/glue) be efective ?
sorry all questions..:)
1/2 inch to 3/4 inch plus a layer or two of 0.125 foam tape...
chilly1, what's up with your Supercascades ? :D ;)
LOl you guys were talking about the THG P4 overclock...they claim that they use a vapochill for the northbridge....hmmm not in this pic :P
Lol. My motto, never trust THG!
So true!!Quote:
Lol. My motto, never trust THG!
Brainfreeze that is REALLY well spotted.
Thank you :)Quote:
Originally posted by LoudHoward
Brainfreeze that is REALLY well spotted.
But its really lousy of THG ! they havent event noticed themselves! stupid stupid THG. they completely butt :smileysex themselves :P
lol the wire even goes right across the picture :P
OMG!:eek:
you guys are going to think i'm stupid but...
You can use aluminum for your evaporator blocks? This is such good news for me! i just figured you could only use copper becuase it was a stronger material and would hold better at a higher pressure i guess i was wrong...
We have a Welding/CNC shop and all the aluminum i could ever want in stock. I've leaned away from building my own Phase change system becuase frankly, machining the copper looked like more trouble that it was worth plus it doesn't machine very well in my expierence. We have Aluminum welders and tons of aluminum, maybe i'll autocad up a few designs and rather than brazeing (which i SUCK at) i'll just weld the blocks up!
DGeNeRaT3
If i'm succsessfull and you guys like them, i'll run some off for people who ask. :D
I would hold off til testing is done the first aluminum block looked like a coke can (not enough internal bracing and the bottom was .0825 inches thick,,, On hold til I finish a few other things...
Quote:
Originally posted by DGeNeRaT3
OMG!:eek:
you guys are going to think i'm stupid but...
You can use aluminum for your evaporator blocks? This is such good news for me! i just figured you could only use copper becuase it was a stronger material and would hold better at a higher pressure i guess i was wrong...
We have a Welding/CNC shop and all the aluminum i could ever want in stock. I've leaned away from building my own Phase change system becuase frankly, machining the copper looked like more trouble that it was worth plus it doesn't machine very well in my expierence. We have Aluminum welders and tons of aluminum, maybe i'll autocad up a few designs and rather than brazeing (which i SUCK at) i'll just weld the blocks up!
DGeNeRaT3
If i'm succsessfull and you guys like them, i'll run some off for people who ask. :D
Well ... that makes me very happy to hear ... I am shooting for the magical -100°C to chill a liquid.Quote:
anything colder than -120c is really a pain in the as, though im sure you will all want to learn that the hard way. Personaly i dont think its really worth the effort. i have gotten to -152c though it wasnt very stable. as you know, one of the reasons we use refrigeration systems as aposed to ln2, is the stability. i have down sized my operations. in an effort to build a stable, happy, and healthy -100to-115c system for our purposes. no more chasing rainbows. if its not stable, its almost not worth mentioning. though some may beg to differ.
Currently working on the traditional cascade which I am building to gather experince at low temperatures. After that I will try for an autocascade.
Good Luck to everyone ... :D
Quote:
Originally posted by chilly1
I would hold off til testing is done the first aluminum block looked like a coke can (not enough internal bracing and the bottom was .0825 inches thick,,, On hold til I finish a few other things...
Forgot to mention aluminum will become stronger the colder it gets... It doesn't reach the glass stage til a lot closer to absolute zero.. And another supposition is that the thermal conductivity in a metal will radically change as temperature drops, due to the valence electrons dropping to a lower orbit. Where this happens I don't know but I intend to find out...
I have always felt that the only stupid question is a question you dont ask. Since i am asking this question it isnt stupid ;)
Electrolysis.
I know that it happens when water is used to cool a system, esp if you are using aluminum and another metal somewhere in the system. I know that water plays a big part in electrolysis too, but is it possible that elecrolysis may occur with refrigerant in place of water?
Not in metals, valence electrons ARE the lowest orbitals. For a metallic conductor conduction happens in the conduction band. There is no valanence coduction because electrons are held tightly into localized orbitals. So for conduction to occur an electron must escape into the conduction band (which is delocalized across the entire conductor and thus allows energy to travel at extremely high speed across macroscopic distances).Quote:
Originally posted by chilly1
Forgot to mention aluminum will become stronger the colder it gets... It doesn't reach the glass stage til a lot closer to absolute zero.. And another supposition is that the thermal conductivity in a metal will radically change as temperature drops, due to the valence electrons dropping to a lower orbit. Where this happens I don't know but I intend to find out...
An electron is promoted to the conduction band by absorbing enough thermal energy to overcome the energy binding it into the valence band. This is why materials like LEDs that use semicoductor elements to create light vary the color of light produced with temperature. At low temperature very little energy is available so the smallest allowed jumps happened and you get lower frequency (low energy) light. At higher temps higher energy jumps are permitted and you can get higher freqency light. If you're ever bored dip a green LED into liquid nitrogen. It'll shift towards red. Get it cold enough and no electrons escape the valence band and it becomes a nonconductor.
Anyway this means that the coduction band is most effective at high temperatures . . . to a point. Thermal energy messes up the neat FCC stucture of most good conductors. As the structure is disturbed the conduction band is also distrubed which slows the flow of electrons (and thus heat riding on the electrons). Theres actually some ideal temperature for conduction that balances out these two effects in metals.
Note that i did not mention superconduction because Al and Cu have no super conductive properties at any temperature.
This is a very good question. Electrolysis itself cannot happen because that is dependant on water decomposing to form oxygen, however galvanic corrosion between copper and aluminum isn't dependant on electrolysis exactly.Quote:
Originally posted by someone
I have always felt that the only stupid question is a question you dont ask. Since i am asking this question it isnt stupid ;)
Electrolysis.
I know that it happens when water is used to cool a system, esp if you are using aluminum and another metal somewhere in the system. I know that water plays a big part in electrolysis too, but is it possible that elecrolysis may occur with refrigerant in place of water?
In theory it can happen anytime the two metals are in direct contact. However realisitcally the effect would probably be very very slow since the refrigerant would not be dissolving the two metals and thus giving them an easy way to react. I think it should be ok, but its been a long time since i took thermo chem class so I can't really remember the exact reactions.
No...Quote:
Originally posted by saratoga
Not in metals, valence electrons ARE the lowest orbitals. For a metallic conductor conduction happens in the conduction band. There is no valanence coduction because electrons are held tightly into localized orbitals. So for conduction to occur an electron must escape into the conduction band (which is delocalized across the entire conductor and thus allows energy to travel at extremely high speed across macroscopic distances).
An electron is promoted to the conduction band by absorbing enough thermal energy to overcome the energy binding it into the valence band. This is why materials like LEDs that use semicoductor elements to create light vary the color of light produced with temperature. At low temperature very little energy is available so the smallest allowed jumps happened and you get lower frequency (low energy) light. At higher temps higher energy jumps are permitted and you can get higher freqency light. If you're ever bored dip a green LED into liquid nitrogen. It'll shift towards red. Get it cold enough and no electrons escape the valence band and it becomes a nonconductor.
Anyway this means that the coduction band is most effective at high temperatures . . . to a point. Thermal energy messes up the neat FCC stucture of most good conductors. As the structure is disturbed the conduction band is also distrubed which slows the flow of electrons (and thus heat riding on the electrons). Theres actually some ideal temperature for conduction that balances out these two effects in metals.
Note that i did not mention superconduction because Al and Cu have no super conductive properties at any temperature.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/6.html
http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/10226.png
"meaning that resistance increases with increasing temperature"Quote:
The "alpha" (á) constant is known as the temperature coefficient of resistance, and symbolizes the resistance change factor per degree of temperature change. Just as all materials have a certain specific resistance (at 20o C), they also change resistance according to temperature by certain amounts. For pure metals, this coefficient is a positive number, meaning that resistance increases with increasing temperature
most materials increase in resistance with increase in temperature. certain substances such as germanium and silicon decrease in resistance with increase in temperature.
Quote:
Originally posted by saratoga
Note that i did not mention superconduction because Al and Cu have no super conductive properties at any temperature.
please stop making up information. the critical temperature for Aluminum is 1.19K.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/electric/Ref/REF_3.html
I wasn't asking about eletrical charestics but the ability for it to conduct heat and strength of materials.
in that case the physics are not good :(Quote:
Originally posted by chilly1
I wasn't asking about eletrical charestics but the ability for it to conduct heat and strength of materials.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...heat/hcon5.gifQuote:
At a given temperature, the thermal and electrical conductivities of metals are proportional, but raising the temperature increases the thermal conductivity while decreasing the electrical conductivity
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html
Good find Read down further links to thermal conductivity...
Basically the drop in temperature of 200 C will make little differance and aluminum is a little more than half what copper is Per gram per cm2 . It all has to do with free electrons.. So in theroy Aluminum should only conduct 1/2 the heat of copper but what in pratice? What about the interface between the aluminum in the block and the refrigerant? What happens here?
Gotta test it anyway. What I really wonder about is when the interface temperature reaches -200 what will happen to the conductivity Will it increase? As aluminum has less mass and the temperature gradient is dependant upon mass , does that mean that thermal conductivity increase as the temperature drops faster with a less massive material?
no offence chilly, but if you read what i posted above you would see that thermal conductivity decreases with temperature. Aluminum will only conduct heat worse the colder you get it.
I spent a little tim reading the data and the Wiedemann-Franz Law, basically it says that thermal conductivity is proportional to the free electrons since both electrical conductivity and thermal conductivity use "electron fog" or the available electrons to conduct, However as temperature increases thermal conductivity increases due the available energy level of the electrons peresent and the same applies to electrical conductivity as the free electrons need more potential to be pushed from thier orbit at higher temperatures. At lower temperatures he inverse is true. Ok I got ya I was suprised that the difference betweel 0C and -100C was so small. So the best material to build a block out of would be one that had a negitive temperature coeffecient. where it would increase in electrical conductivity as temperature unfortunatly all these materials currently availaible are also not good conductors to begin with... The formla were not explained in your post the website (when I had time to look at it) explained the usages of the formula..
Looks like the negative effect of temperature dissapear below -60 to -100 and after that thermal conductivity increases exponentially, Thx John....
From;
http://web.mit.edu/lienhard/www/downloadform1.html
looks like @ -200c copper is a better thermal conductor than silver, wow
u should use melt copper solder as TIM
I would be great if we could replace the chip with a manafactured one that had channeling for refrigerant and ports and lines to attach. So that we could cool the circuits directly no heat spreader and no conductors between the refrigerant and the silicon..
chilly1 It would be amazing, but i don't think cpu will work at -150C or -200C it's too low for such electronic
Chilly wrote:
Hello there ... even though I am pretty new to phase change stuff ... the quote kinda hits on something that I have though about for a while now ...Quote:
I would be great if we could replace the chip with a manafactured one that had channeling for refrigerant and ports and lines to attach. So that we could cool the circuits directly no heat spreader and no conductors between the refrigerant and the silicon..
Even though the CPU does have a heat spreader, no channels for direct contact cooling, etc ....
Wouldn't we get better results starting to cool the CPU from both sides??? This might sound and/or be awfully stupid, but it's something that has been spinning in my head for quiet some time time now ... On the other hand it could be a lot easier to protect this capsule, and thus the cpu from condensation ... :confused:
I guess that in order for this to work the CPU would have to be encapsulated in its own block ... pins from the CPU would have to be extended and the capsule would plug right into the socket ...
What do you think? Is this the stupidest idea ever, or might it be a "beginning"??? :stick:
What would be absolutely wonderful would be a 1/2 inch hole through the mobo, directly behind the CPU. We could then cool the back of the chip as well as the front.
I know that a capsule would be a pain in the ass to design and build ... However, I am sure that somebody here is be capable of accomplishing such a task.
The capsule would be constructed using high performance insulating materials like microlen or epdm ...
However ... at the very bottom we could use a non conductive material, which will transfer heat, and go prommy style, using a heating element which will heat up the extended pins, thus preventing any condensation.
Thanks Gary for not having declared me in saint ... :)
Check this out
I seriously dought it will work on every motherboard, but it worked on that one.
Guys... w8 for BBUL technology where the die is available from both sides and you have smth like a slot celery, anyone remembers slot celeron sandwiches ? :D
OOO dual head -150 chiller total freeze out... grease the slot and seal it to the board... souns like a winner...
IBM did some testing on processors and their findings are the optimal temps are around -178C . The -120 C failures we saw last year were with liquid nitrogen and were colled quickly therefore I think the temperature gradient within the chip destroyed the electrical connections to the silicon... "shrinkage"Quote:
Originally posted by root
chilly1 It would be amazing, but i don't think cpu will work at -150C or -200C it's too low for such electronic
Heres a article: http://anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1542
Most electronic components operate better the colder they get and have been shown to operate at <10K. The exceptions are components which require a chemical reaction to operate such as batteries and capacitors.
I think it most be the mechanical stress that stops those cpus operating. Thermal shock, you can prevent thermal shock in 2 ways.
1. Reduce the temperature slowly
2. Reduce ambient.
The best solution is probably both. If you can maintain ambient temps to -30C you could have an evap temp 0f -150C and it would have the equivalent thermal shock as evap temps of -100C(and we know these dont shock the cpus too much)
Want to get to -178C then reduce ambient to -60c.
How cold can you make a closed loop recirculating nitrogen atmosphere Chilly1 :D .
A double skinned chamber would work for the mobo, external connections wouldnt be a problem as the inner atmosphere would only need to be maintained at 1 or 2 psi to ensure no air ingress, so sealing wouldn't need to be that extreme.
Wish I had the practical skills to build these systems:(
Regards
John.
As always, there are three important questions involved in this:Quote:
How cold can you make a closed loop recirculating nitrogen atmosphere Chilly1 .
What is the heat load?
How cold do you want it?
Will that be Visa, MC, or Discover Card?
Do you take coupons Gary?:D
regards
John.
How would capacitors handle the vaccume?
what do they use in space?
Heat pipes on the dark side with fins to radiate into space, Conduction and infrared radiation work quite well when you take into considering that on the dark side of the ship it is near absolute zero..Quote:
Originally posted by Redwolf
what do they use in space?
Capacitors because they are filled with a volitile oil would need to be made of stronger materials than their current construction, In a vacume they would distort and may even burst... When a non-electrolytic cap is shorted or overvolted it bursts and expells the oil plates and paper everywhere...Quote:
Originally posted by someone
How would capacitors handle the vaccume?
I can make a closed loop nitrogen chiller recirculating with the refrigerating equipment I have run at 70 kelvin at 40 watts. zThis uses a hydrogen cryo pump a vacume chamber and a cryo torr head, The cryo torr has a 2 stage stirling engine powered by 115v and the cryo pump a hydrogen absorber to remove the heat of compression from the stirling engine... Capacitors do not use a chemical reaction to operate. Mearly the proxmity of the electrons to the lack of electrons wether you consider flow from to or to from ...Quote:
Originally posted by pythagoras
Most electronic components operate better the colder they get and have been shown to operate at <10K. The exceptions are components which require a chemical reaction to operate such as batteries and capacitors.
I think it most be the mechanical stress that stops those cpus operating. Thermal shock, you can prevent thermal shock in 2 ways.
1. Reduce the temperature slowly
2. Reduce ambient.
The best solution is probably both. If you can maintain ambient temps to -30C you could have an evap temp 0f -150C and it would have the equivalent thermal shock as evap temps of -100C(and we know these dont shock the cpus too much)
Want to get to -178C then reduce ambient to -60c.
How cold can you make a closed loop recirculating nitrogen atmosphere Chilly1 :D .
A double skinned chamber would work for the mobo, external connections wouldnt be a problem as the inner atmosphere would only need to be maintained at 1 or 2 psi to ensure no air ingress, so sealing wouldn't need to be that extreme.
Wish I had the practical skills to build these systems:(
Regards
John.
Ah Absorption. There you go.. buy yourself one of those over priced NG Fuel Cells and use some of the extra heat for a Helium Heat Pipe system.
Well the vacume pump I am still looking for and a fullsized chamber would be nice I currently have one for a single 12 pin ic. The helium heat pipe equipment hasnt come up on Ebay yet but the cryo torr stuff has ...the vacum pump I want was 12,000.
lol
The ultimate goal is to freeze one cubit foot of air.
Ah you need to get creative and start making your own I think. Thought you had a line on someone with a CNC?
I do but he still charges by the hour, the router table I can get to use won't do over 2 inch thick....,,,
LOL Gary :DQuote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
As always, there are three important questions involved in this:
What is the heat load?
How cold do you want it?
Will that be Visa, MC, or Discover Card?
Why dont we just tape a computer to the back side of a spacecraft, it would be cheaper :shrug:
J/K
LoL
...nice...
That doesn't disagree with what I said! High temperature makes conduction band promotions easier, but hurts mobility. The effect this has depends on the material.Quote:
Originally posted by zabomb4163
[B]No...
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/6.html
http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/10226.png
"meaning that resistance increases with increasing temperature"
most materials increase in resistance with increase in temperature. certain substances such as germanium and silicon decrease in resistance with increase in temperature.
:eek: :eek: :eek:Quote:
Originally posted by zabomb4163
please stop making up information. the critical temperature for Aluminum is 1.19K.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/electric/Ref/REF_3.html [/B]
I was thinking Copper and Silver and wrote copper and aluminium. My mistake, it was a long post and i must have missed that detail.
Heat is conducted by electrons or by phonon vibration. Metals don't have the former to any real degree, so for all purposes eletrical and thermal conductivity are two sides of the same effect (delocalized conduction band).Quote:
I wasn't asking about eletrical charestics but the ability for it to conduct heat and strength of materials.
Originally posted by zabomb4163
no offence chilly, but if you read what i posted above you would see that thermal conductivity decreases with temperature. Aluminum will only conduct heat worse the colder you get it.
Not true past -60C aluminum and other metals increase in thermal conductivity, there appears to be a nonlinear blip as themerature drops but as the temps get lower thermal conductivity increases exponentially. So what does this mean if we can get the internals in a chip below -100C and keep it there would we see a nonlinear gain in voltage handeling capability and a substantial drop in temperature with less heat removal and faster load to response times///.
have you been working on the system lately chilly? if so what stage are you working on?
Letting my finger grow back currently.... Almost a candidate for the darwin awards. I was working on a hood system on a roof for a friend and I was adjusting the belt... (Power locked out) I turned the pulley and the sheetmatal gave way and I reacted and tried to catch it... well ten stitches broken bone under thnail the had to stitch through the nail to get it to hold together.... Damn hurts to type.... just took a pill pain be on its way out....
Artists must take care of their hands!
Wow that sucks. Hope you feel better and get back in cooling. (I'm going to need advice once i start my system!)Quote:
Originally posted by chilly1
Letting my finger grow back currently.... Almost a candidate for the darwin awards. I was working on a hood system on a roof for a friend and I was adjusting the belt... (Power locked out) I turned the pulley and the sheetmatal gave way and I reacted and tried to catch it... well ten stitches broken bone under thnail the had to stitch through the nail to get it to hold together.... Damn hurts to type.... just took a pill pain be on its way out....
after i read this i think its about time for you to start stating temps in kelvin :pQuote:
Originally posted by chilly1
Fuggers old sig had th einsides of the blocks in it... I have a cascade with both. We ar going for all the GHZ we can get so we are also going for as low as possiable with a phase change to -200C....???
When I finish the -150C rig the most xtreme thing I will do next is work on the cryopump (14K) that will supposedly do 70W at 40K and research heat pipe technology operating at these temperatures.... Maybe a while though Istill have projects in teh works...
how far did you get on the -150C before you hurt your finger.
PArts are here layout is dome condenser is on the ground and the third compressor is setting on the floor...
It's nice to see how many people have interests in the scientific things about subzero cooling and electronics.
There are a lot of contradictions about all of this.
a few of them:
The transistor effect has some sort of ideal temperature for electron flow. this point is above ambient.
The shifting effect (don't know how to call it --> the process to change the gate state) tends to go slower if you exceed a certain temperature. (if I remeber corectly)
Semiconductance works with polution of materials. Carbon(oxide) is often used for these purposes. Carbon's resistance tends to decrease, the colder it gets (like most of the materials do).
So there are many factors wich improve under these extreme circumstances, but there are also many factors wich should have a negative effect.
So I thinks it's still very hard to make conclusions, and a lot of scientific tests have to be done to research this phenomenon.
:confused: carbon has a negative temperature coefficent. as temperature decreases resistance increases. other substances with this quality are silicon and germanium.Quote:
Originally posted by ns_ripper
Semiconductance works with polution of materials. Carbon(oxide) is often used for these purposes. Carbon's resistance tends to decrease, the colder it gets (like most of the materials do).
and they say european schools are ahead of american schools :p:
http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/jo...462/nowak5.gif
http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/jo...462/nowak.html
One possible way to avoid the subthreshold-power vs. active-power box may be provided by lower junction temperature. Since IOFF decreases exponentially with –1/T, the threshold voltage can be lowered in proportion to T while maintaining constant IOFF, allowing further VDD reduction; temperature cuts the Gordian knot among performance, passive power, and active power. Reduced operating temperature further benefits CMOS performance as a result of increased electron and hole mobilities in MOSFETs, and decreased interconnect resistances. The improvement of performance vs. temperature will depend to some degree on details of the CMOS technology and the product design, since the MOSFET performance can improve as much as T–1 to T–0.5 depending on process and operating electric field details, while interconnect (resistive) performance may be improved by as much as T–1.5. In Figure 5, the frequency of the circuit, for a fixed power-supply voltage, will improve as T–, with cases shown for = 0.5, 0.63, and 0.75 to allow for some variability with application. Cooling to 100 K (–172°C) gains two generations of performance (taking = 0.63) and thus looks quite attractive at first glance.
Quote:
Cooling to 100 K (–172°C) gains two generations of performance (taking = 0.63)
/\ VERY interesting read about processor design and the effect of temperature on processors.
yep! were shooting for those temperatures, stock volts and a 100% gain in switching speed, Increase voltage????? If we can get the required cooling at Vdd +20% what will this do to the effective switching speed, As you may already know increasing the voltage overcomes a limitation of the cmos's switch rise time an decay rate and by cooling we also reduce the decay rate and the rise time., Basically decreasing the temperature has the same end result as a rise in voltage on overall system performance.
it's been a while, I leared about this stuff, so I could've been wrong. :DQuote:
Originally posted by zabomb4163
:confused: carbon has a negative temperature coefficent. as temperature decreases resistance increases. other substances with this quality are silicon and germanium.
and they say european schools are ahead of american schools :p:
Apparently I am. :sofa:
So, the theoretical temp where CMOS chips switching time is cut in half is somewhere around -172C, at stock voltage.
so build a system that would cool to -86C with the voltage doubled! and achieve the same effect :wierd:
All this math! Arg, my head :brick:
so chilly, have u considered about try to remove the packaging on the die of a proc, so that the coldness of the evap is touching the actual top layer of the proc, instead of touching the packaging,
although i suppose you would have to find a metal for the evap thats not electricallly conductive.
have you thought about sanding away at the packaging so thats its sides all meet at right angles and then making a perfect indentation of that in the evap,,, or ... taking a mold of the die, and then pouring ur own evap from a mold with a perfect indentation so that it covers all sides of the die except the botton.
i still think my evap chamber with the die exposed directly to the evaporating refrigerant, would work as long as u had a controller perfectly adjusting the amount of refrigeran t flowing and the strength of the suction pulling, for each specific heatload, that the cpu is putting out
I have lapped a proscott worked a little better, iIT's all about boundry layers and surface wetting for heat conductivity. My new evap has only the transferr metal between the refrigerant and the head the baker blocks have an additional boundry layer between the refrigerant and the heads surface. (Bakerblock... refrigerant/metal/solder/metal/hscompound/heatspreader/hscompound/chip=7) My new block... refrigerant/metal/hscompound/heatspreader/hscompound/chip=5.
So if you remove the heat spreader=3 you remove an additional 2 boundry layers and will achieve better internal temps..
So yes it may get you better temps but with the new intel chips comes with a huge risk, the HS Comes off hard and teh chip is realiatively fragile so there is that risk...
Surface wetting is the HS compounds ability to wet the surface. you seen how water beads up? well if you add a surfacant to the water it seems to coat it.. this is what a hs compound need to do... On ultra low applications paladium is commonly used instead of a grease maybe we need to also test these hs greases on ultra low temp apps... good idea blinky,,, maybe we should look into the temperature charestics of the thermal compound intel puts under the heat spreader...
dam intel, btw i just found out theres an intel developmental reasearch place in downtown berkeley, in a building i pass every day going to and from school. im gonna give em a call and see if i can get a tour, and maybe some engineering sample chips. any suggestion on getting these.
Don't know but givem hell.... see what they do there and post you tour take a camera if they let you would be interesting....
i think they do research on wearable computers, but im sure they have some 3.4EE ES's waiting around to be given away to random high school students who walk in :)
heres the stuff they work on
http://intel-research.net/berkeley/research_areas.asp
Get a few hundred samples without the chipkiller already glued on. From now on, i call the heatspreader a coffin.
I have a wearable computer its a panasonic wearable tablet wirless set up ... win2k p3 500 with 256meg ram... I don't like the current displays as the brightness is only suitable for night use... same as most laptops...Quote:
Originally posted by blinky
i think they do research on wearable computers, but im sure they have some 3.4EE ES's waiting around to be given away to random high school students who walk in :)