The way Dice released bf4 I wouldn't get my hopes up for mantle this year
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The way Dice released bf4 I wouldn't get my hopes up for mantle this year
Since there's less overhead, wouldn't that mean increasingly faster hardware would scale better? e.g 20% boost in performance on 290X would be more than 20% perf boost on 7970 etc. or am i confused?
Thats a good question since from what I've heard it seems to mostly reduce cpu overhead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craftyman.
That's we waited for a long time. CPU overhead is insane with actual methodsQuote:
Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...0#post25445660Quote:
Originally Posted by 8 Pack
Damn, that's impressive to watch.
EDIT: Their demo showed their minimum fps at ~28.5 fps. With 3000 units flying around, that's unheard of.
EDIT2: 20 fps when they said they're bumping the unit count.
you be gpu bound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craftyman.
so a 290 will perform better....
I was quite impressed by the demo, as well as all the information in the slides. While this was sponsored by AMD, it really sounds like developers really like the concept of Mantle and what it actually does, and they will put pressure on Nvidia to support it since Mantle isn't vendor specific.
I think that RTS games could see a massive improvement from mantle. having spare CPU time to handle things like AI and physics can only make things better. Considering what they where showing was pre alpha it was incredibly impressive. Not only did the demo look pretty good but it was silky smooth which for an RTS simulation of that scope is essentially unheard of.
I still think however that the biggest roadblock for Mantle will be Nvidia. Mantle will only really take off if Nvidia comes down from their high horse and supports it (I don't think AMD would have a problem if Nvidia wants to support it as they have said that it is an open API) I think it might just be that Nvidia is to proud to support something that AMD had so much involvement with. Until mantle is the ONLY API that games are developed on we won't see much of what it can really do as DX will still be the "lowest common denominator" and I really don't see games being mantle only until it makes business sense to do so (ie. both Nvidia and AMD GPU's being able to make use of it).
Not to mention that mantle can solve the biggest problem with the SteamOS and SteamBox idea because it can give devs a great API to work with that is not tied to Windows or driver support.
Why would nVIDIA support something that isn't optimized for their hardware, and alas, they could enhance their own solution and gain more for their hardware ?
AMD has momentum, and Mantle allows developers to port some of their optimisations from the Consoles. If it took AMD two years to get this far even if Nvidia could turn around an alternative Mantle will have been out a full year and developers would not want an extra API. Like I've been saying a lot these days, these GPU's are very programmable there is no reason why Mantle couldn't be as effective on Nvidia hardware.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchZowner
There are several architectural reasons as to why it wouldn't be as effective.
nV has nVAPI btw.
Like what?Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchZowner
Can't say that NVAPI has really done much (or should I say they haven't done much with it perhaps). It has been around for years and the effect has been.... not much lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchZowner
I think those game developer guys know a thing or two about GPU mArchs and their connection with the best API to work with in developing graphic for games, and when they're CONVINCED that Mantle CAN be THE API for ALL modern GPU mArch from all vendors, i tend to believe them much more than anybody else words. :yepp:
I do hope mantle is adopted by the industry as a whole but even if it isnt it can be a good thing. Mantle has a decent amount of support around it that it might just force microsoft to stop resting on their laurels and better optimize directx. Its kind of like google fiber. No one ever dreamed of affording gigabit internet but google said it was possible and is now proving it. In the areas where google fiber is offered other ISP's have starting rolling out their own gigabit services at reasonable prices. A popular idea pushed by the right company can have a tremendous affect on an entire industry.
I would love to see a single physics engine supported by the big 3 (AMD, Nvidia, and yes Intel) but thats a separate topic
Quoted for fking truthQuote:
Originally Posted by phantomferrari
With the speed of adoption by big name developers should indicate how good this is for everyone... Including those who use nvidia.. Look at the big picture people
Edit - fking grammar and sht
amd gave the hardware to ps4 and xbox and amd gave sdk for them so it is not a coincidence that mantle's timing is near to the consoles. i am pretty sure amd made a console to mantle port tool included in sdk for atleast xbox.
Didn't Microsoft & Sony both deny that?Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
it may not be in the sdk at the moment because i think sony and microsoft is not sure what to think about their console games can easily be ported to pc. also there may be a lot of other reasons. we know that amd supplied a low level api to sony and microsoft for their consoles and suddenly a low level pc api appeared. saying none of the console apis have similarities to mantle is naive i think and amd is not stupid not think of a convertor software.
I think what was probably the scenario was that AMD needed (or helped) make an API for all the console developers to use with AMD APUs, given that the consoles are x86, AMD took what they learned (perhaps even some of the code) and developed it for PC. There are obviously differences between the OS's of each console and Windows (as with the driver models) so it cant be the exact same, so I don't think you could safely say if they are exactly the same or copied, but certainly could see the connections between the tow.
Have Battlefield 4′s Woes Delayed AMD's Mantle Roll-Out?
EA strikes again........
i am pretty sure mantle update for bf4 will be delayed but again i am pretty sure not because of this.
It has already been delayed. It was supposed to roll out in the first week of December.Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
I think you're right on this one, EA is highly sensitive to getting BF4 working right before pushing Mantle. No matter which angle you look at it from it is the right thing to do, it's not like it'll harm AMD sales right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
BF3 is still troublesome for a lot of people, not just CTDs, but plenty of in-game bugs, etc.
What makes EA think that they'll get BF4 done properly anytime before... Jesus comes back to Earth ? :p:
My friend said it the best: by the time BF4 is fixed, it will be irrelevant.
I keep hearing its bug ridden and broken... Same in bf3 during its whole lifetime.... Truth is I'm too busy playing the game when I'm home to notice the bugsQuote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
In Australia between 8am and 4am there are on average about 6 x 64p servers completely full usually... Tells me that these bugs aren't really stopping people from playing...ofc ppl will whine any chance they get if they aren't enjoying the experience
Edit - my bad there is one bug that annoys the f out of me its the sound clipping on larger maps...but yea no rubber banding or graphical bugs for me
Guys sorry for the reality check about BF4 but you are not talking about Blizzard or Valve, this is EA. Don't expect fixes any soon, or at all!
:) i only wait for the lag and stutter fix that dice fixed 4 months after the release of bf3. for others i don't have much hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitriman
there is a difference between having annoying bugs and game breaking bugs. BF4 has the latter. Considering that EA's stock did dip a bit because of their need to push out games before theyre done (BF4, SimCIty, etc.) they are also starting to receive multiple lawsuits. If one of the biggest series in a multi billion dollar companys lineup is horrifically broken and they are losing money you better believe they are going to patch it as fast as they canQuote:
Originally Posted by BenchZowner
I for one refuse to preorder another BF game in the future. I love the series but I have been frustrated to no end with the game, the server, or both just straight up crashing (much much better now but still) I also doubt I am the only one who with the next BF will play the wait and see approach to whether or not the game is actually finished when it is launched. This is going to bite EA in the butt for a years to come and they deserve every bit of it
I assure you, DICE isn't doing anything except fixing BF4 right now, there are lawyers all over EA trying to cook the executives feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitriman
The reason? I'm hearing that they told everyone BF4 was going to sell huge and that the good times were rolling, but they suspiciously sold up as soon as the share price peaked instead of waiting for BF4 to launch which would have raised the share price even more if it sold as much as they had promised. And a separate class action law suit might be filed, simply for the state of the game. Worst company in America twice in row eh?
Quoted for absolute truth. Couldn't have said it better myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomferrari
EA are horrible as a publisher as the force DICE to release something which wasn't READY, we all know how well devs are aware of bugs, that's why you got open betas for testing. in my opinion, EA was more interested to push this out of the door as opposed to waiting for it to be ready.
**I din't pay for my copy of BF4, it was a pressie. but still I hate non working pressies..damn you EA
Strange people have had so many issues, I've had none.
But that doesn't mean the game is well done/balanced/a huge leap over BF3 lol
-PB
You know this thread is about Mantle not really about BF4 or EA, while there is a cause to bring it up in regards to Mantle, most of this is rather off-topic. I have no admin or mod power, so these are just my thoughts.
while you are right but becuase bf4 will be the first game that will adapt mantle and will going to have a huge impact on mantle going up or down it is related i think.
We are talking about the Studio/publisher that helped develop Mantle, should be the first with a full product using Mantle, EA's pledged support for Mantle is very important to the API. EA might not be releasing the most anticipated game for us PC owners but they've certainly promised to make most so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stukov
AMD is using BF4 to market Mantle like crazy. So there are of course considerable expectations.
I have noticed with more delays for BF4 Mantle Edition that Oxide Games are getting more press for their Mantle support than EA. I can't help but think AMD jumped the gun a little, they could at least have had a small Tech Demo showing it off rather than push for a AAA (A if you ask me) title to launch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by zalbard
Well wouldn't be the first time we get powerpointed heaven and then only get mediocre results. :wasntme:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathReborn
They play on Nvidia lol ... I have buy the game really late as i was really busy at work for the end of the year.. Never have a crash, and the last patch have fix the textures flickers on CFX.. They will allways been complain about the internet code hit detection, but this is expected anyway. Not that the game have been bug free, but anyway, for the little time i have been able to play, i see they have allready start to fix a lot of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbagz
Anyway back to Mantle..
I found this interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zlatan
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthre...360782&page=13Quote:
Originally Posted by zlatan
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...postcount=1346Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbo
SourceQuote:
Still coming, delayed for a really good reason.
Dec 30, 2013 by Charlie Demerjian
What is happening with the Battlefield 4 Mantle patch EA promised before the end of the year? In short it won?t be out today or tomorrow, it is delayed until January for a pretty good reason.
EA spokespeople told SemiAccurate that the Mantle patch was still on and still full steam ahead, although sadly not on Steam, and will be out in January. The full statement from them is as follows:
Unofficial word from EA sources say that the bug fixes for BF4 is taking more time than expected, and that is a higher priority than the Mantle patch. This makes complete sense, and good for EA in deciding to fix what they have sold instead of pushing shiny new stuff. While we would prefer to see the performance increase from a Mantle based engine, it is much better to have a base stable game first. SemiAccurate does expect the Mantle engine version to be demo?d all over the place at CES next week though, stay tuned.S|AQuote:
"After much consideration, the decision was made to delay the Mantle patch for Battlefield 4. AMD continues to support DICE on the public introduction of Mantle, and we are tremendously excited about the coming release for Battlefield 4! We are now targeting a January release and will have more information to share in the New Year."
I'm just glad they are finally getting the game to a state that is playable. In saying that, the netcode is by far the biggest issue I am having. I would hold out my hopes for the mantle patch in January though.
Star Swarm demo is coming this month!
http://forums.elementalgame.com/451041/get;3430480
form Las Vegas today
http://i.imgur.com/o0BW5rQ.jpg
AMD , show us a benchmark chart at least ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxforces
I want to see the at least version of that advertisement.
Yes please.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimInalA
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimInalA
The rumors are, we will see some demo in couple days. (Las Vegas 2014 International CES, January 7-10)Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMuppet
http://imgur.com/a/Yzo8L
All/most of the slides. I hope AMD releases the demo during the presentation (give a damn QR code or something).
EDIT: It got removed. There isn't really much new except a few things like: Kaveri is 8~15% faster clock for clock compared to Richland (we already know this), Battlefield 4 Mantle is up to 45% faster (no benchmarks given), and Oxide DirectX vs Mantle is 200% faster for Mantle (we already know about this too, but this should shut up anyone who keeps saying it's running at 300 fps for some reason).
That will be good. Can't wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68
So, these 45% only in completely CPU-bound scenarios...
Thanks, I did see your link when it was working, it had 74 images in the album.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindbox
Here is a new link from the same site, this time only with 47 images http://imgur.com/a/Oqmuf#0
EDIT
I did see at another forum whole tread deleted about the Kaveri AMD Tech Day.
something to do with the NDA.
Guess the leak first started at this Polish site, they say by mistake.
here is the Google translation
EDIT #2
The album is now re-uploaded with 88 images
http://imgur.com/a/4WiVM
http://oi42.tinypic.com/ws7jbt.jpg
at what Resolution ?
It sais see slide 27 for system configurations . Maybe there it also sais which resolution they ran it at . I don't know how to find slide 27 .Quote:
Originally Posted by behrouz
I found it,
http://www.overclock.net/t/1456842/w...r-than-directxQuote:
Note: The Performance below is all done on 1920x1080. With Kaveri AMD pushes for 1080p. Also, everything is stock, not overclocked.
Wow , that's nice if it's true.damn 1080P??
Kevari is only two modules if I remember correctly, and that bench is very CPU limited on DX11. With DX11's API overheads I'm not surprised it could only do 10 fps when trying to handle all those ships and effects, the frame rate would be much higher on a 4770k but if you built a game to drag the i7 down to 10fps on DX11 then I guess Mantle would be able to bring those frame rates back up too.Quote:
Originally Posted by behrouz
meh the slides tell us usual nothing at all.. need the reviewer to pick it up...
Full presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIWyf8Hyjbg#t=17
Edit:
Looks like it's a little old. Still good.
Thanks, saving all of it for reuploading the next time it was brought down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68
it is a very bad presentation :( .
%45 performance increase is awesome. I believe %45 number is setup specific but it doesn't matter.
ohhh crap presentation but good product......my grandma can sell me her potato and leek bake way better than this dude can sell me something we're heavily interested on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
True, but it seems they demoed it on something better than APU as that green counter in the top right was showing 71 to 115 which I guess is FPS.
I'm eager to try Mantle on my fast R9 290X paired with comparably slow i5 2500k. It should deliver here I think :D
Must :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lightman
Hardware.fr talks about ~10% increase where the CPU is not a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
http://www.hardware.fr/news/13525/ce...antle-bf4.html
LOL HardwareFrench has the patch, must have got it from Nvidia. :) First AMD did say up to 45% and who cares where it comes from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivon
Off course even only 10% for free would be nothing to complain about, some people did pay $350 for only 7% more performance, and usually it is at least $150
that's great I thought it would be only for cpu bound situations and 0 when gpu boundQuote:
Originally Posted by Olivon
and that 10% most of the time and up to 45% sometimes should put the Ti in a hole on all coming mantle games :up:
Before everyone starts running out to buy AMD stock, keep in mind the 45% figure comes not from Battlefield, but Oxide Games’ Starswarm demo - a 64-bit engine test first shown in December that attempts to fill space with thousands of ships on-screen at once kinda like the test on 3dmark Vantage. And it doesn’t apply to just any generic AMD card - rather the A8-7600, a new APU from the Kaveri line the manufacturer is showing at CES. A very expensive AMD FireGL card.Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
Good one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
Umm... im trying to read the last part of your comment... how is the a8-7600 apu a FireGL card? ....its a socket Fm2+ Apu....
Where the hell did you hear that the 45% figure doesn't come from Battlefield? If it came from Oxide Game's starswarm demo, it won't be 45%. It would be 200%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
A8-7600 is a FireGL card? Oh man.
oh wow..
Now, XtremeSystem forum still tolerates this kinda trolling, and of course none of the self proclaimed "fair & balanced Graphic pundit & AMD fans basher" make any comment out of that. :clap:
You Sir must come from planet Bizarro... I can see you have a nice valve tube amplifier on your Avatar..... maybe you should kinda stick to what you know, since you just demonstrated your knowledge on Amd's product line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
:wth:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
Actually the Starswarm demo runs 200% faster on the A8-7600, but like I said that APU doesn't really have that much in the way of CPU resources to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
I would say it is more of an honest mistake. rather than a genuine attempt at trolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by spursindonesia
Nah, the guy is a (fill in the blank)Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMuppet
I am a long time XS member, dont post much anymore just read, this 'person' only ever posts negative comments regarding anything to do with AMD.
Wow.
Having a constructive discussion seems more and more difficult on the news section.
Whatever you post, people cry a river if the post it's not at the advantage of their dear brand.
P.S : No need to disrespect or discredit Hardware.fr. I know this site very well and they do a great job. Making such a move is futile.
Star Swarm Demonstration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PKxP30WxYM
take it for what ever it is worth.
Personal opinion: I find it hilarious that the only "advantage" they show over DirectX is motion blur. This reminds me a lot to the first metro game where they used a useless demanding motion blur technique ho put down every gpu at that time.
Not that motion blur is the first thing I disable in games anyway.
Here's another one from CES. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yak25TKCCrc
seems like a good site but their uber mode invention on nvidia cards are very suspicious i think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivon
It's a shame with a test like that, they can't have 2 identical machines. One running DX and the other mantle, side by side.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindbox
My only excuse is I was half asleep (5am i believe) when I did a hack job cut-and-paste from here....
http://www.pcgamesn.com/battlefield/...e-over-directx
Quote:
A couple of important caveats: the 45% figure comes not from Battlefield, but Oxide Games? Starswarm demo - a 64-bit engine test first shown in December that attempts to fill space with thousands of ships on-screen at once. And it doesn?t apply to just any generic AMD card - rather the A8-7600, a new APU from the Kaveri line the manufacturer is showing at CES. A very expensive AMD card.
It?s a claim and a half nonetheless. If AMD?s new bollocks turn out to be as doggy as they say, will you be busy justifying a new card to yourself this year?
Don't expect Mantle anytime soon. AMD is now saying Q1 2014. So it can be as late as March 31....
http://www.techpowerup.com/img/14-01-13/45a.jpg
q1 is good if they can catch it last day or not. being late for a while is less important then going to market with lots of bugs.
45% comes from these FPS values, apparently. http://i.imgur.com/8tf2zwH.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
Latest I would say for Mantle would be the last day of February. I've never seen them being way too late to release a driver designated for January. That said I haven't updated my drivers lately because I never had any problems.
I would suggest you get your news from somebody a bit more in the know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
I have to agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEC911
AMD was claiming 300% improvement for the Starswarm demo.
45% is for BF4 with the A8 7600.
To me, that's particularly important since even a 15% bump in framerates makes a HUGE difference for APUs.
I suspect he just get them from places that fit his scheduleQuote:
Originally Posted by LordEC911
I think the reason you are seeing such a speed boost variance is based on what limitation a CPU bottleneck is affecting performance. While you may get 10% where no bottleneck exists, when you compare a slower CPU (such as AMD's APU) vs the fastest (Intel top of the line) you are going to see a much bigger boost with the APU % wise vs that of the Intel EE. You will also see greater improvement in a game which uses loads of CPU calculations like AI, such as the Swarm demo, Starcraft, or other RTS type games.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
I don't actually trust results with Kaveri, there are too many unknown factors like HSA, the 512 shaders, and the fast memory to take into account. At the very least I would expect Mantle to push the GPU compute work over to the APU shaders to free up the GPU shaders. Which isn't something I can replicate on my Intel.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
No, the reason there is such a variance is that Starswarm was coded especially for Mantle. It's beyond a best case scenario. In 90% of the Mantle titles we see for the next few years, the standard DirectX + Windows driver will be the primary rendering tool while Mantle will be added in. Hence why there is a much lower gain in BF4, the poster child for an actual Mantle-supporting game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stukov
HSA isn't active right now, nor will it come into effect within games. Games actually do a pretty good job of partitioning resources (especially those that support DirectCompute, etc.) already so HSA is mostly focused on compute-focused apps through OpenCL 2.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconyu
It would be wonderful if Nvidia also supported this, and we no longer have to use DirectX. With Microsoft trying to force people the upgrade to a newer OS by supporting newer versions of DirectX only on the latest Windows, something must be done. Of course, Nvidia will never do this, and before you know it we'll have OpenGl, Direct X, Mantle, and a Nvidia variation.