Crysis 2 being re-designed for GTX580

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

Look, you provided the stupid link as "proof" the 5870 is faster, oblivious to the drivers used, as in "it all depends on which bench review you look at". NO, IT DOESN'T is the point.
I pointed out your huge mistake.

Next time, if you don't realize it's a "release" review with non official drivers, and that drivers have been massively improved in the new official 400 series release (256.xx or 258.xx and beyond - etc.), why don't expect anything different in reply from me, or anyone else who knows what they're doing.

Since you sent out bad information, it needed to be corrected.


Next:
"Proved your point" about why are "you" ( as in me? I just got here, and replied to you, I didn't compare the two, YOU DID, and claimed the 5870 was faster !) comparing 5870 and 480 ?

LOL - Now you know 5870 loses badly, so now it's unfair to compare them. Got it.
Just a moment before you proclaimed 5870 faster than 480.

LOL - Nice talking to you.

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wow I could cut the tension in the air with a butter knife... of a 5970 ;)

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Originally Posted by kuroikenshi

wow I could cut the tension in the air with a butter knife... of a 5970 ;)

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Wouldn't a 5970 be a double sided blade ? Would cut right through it, no doubt...:rofl: Oh god yes, oh man it would cut right through... yeah the one to use.
The 480 would be the hot butter knife... melting through it, huh.:D
There, now... all the people calm ? Can everyone handle it ?

This game will be optimised for G200 for sure.

/prayer

I'll be happy if the game is just optimized better than the first.

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Originally Posted by Manicdan

wow this is turning just as bad as physx

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I see, so NVidia should just sit around, and do nothing, like ATI has been doing for so long.
Why don't we just demand TWIMTBP get shut down immediately, then games can come out at a snail's pace and many not at all. That would be great for all of us.:up:

Perhaps we should have the world fairness league declare PhysX illegal, so ATI card owners can have some personal satisfaction because their lazy, butt broke ATI card master can't make anything like PhysX on their own... :up:

I mean where do you want the successful profit making NVidia company to stop ?
Should NVidia just do all the work and pay all the money out, hire all the hundreds of people going to game companies and helping develop games, and just make certain all of it is set for ATI and works on all their cards, all for free ? Has ATI registered for welfare with the world standards board ? :rofl:

Why doesn't ATI just surrender itself and hand it's company stock over to NVidia so we can get on with the above scenario ? :D

How come NVidia has to do nothing or do it all for ATI too, or "it just ain't fair" ? :shrug:

Where did that concept EVER come from to begin with ?
:mad:

If ATI :mad: can't handle it and keep up, then maybe it should bow out, or sell itself to someone who can handle it and manage it, like NVidia, for instance. :ROTF:

I'm really sick of hearing NVidia get TRASHED at every single enthusiast website on the net, because ATI is epic failure and can do NOTHING about their crappy, tesselesser, aa crippled, no money to fix up games and drivers, loser from the wrong side of the broken debt tracks - giant PROBLEM. :eek:

It's not NVidia's fault that ATI can't do anything, right ? Right ?

Your :welcome:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

I see, so NVidia should just sit around, and do nothing, like ATI has been doing for so long.
Why don't we just demand TWIMTBP get shut down immediately, then games can come out at a snail's pace and many not at all. That would be great for all of us.:up:

Perhaps we should have the world fairness league declare PhysX illegal, so ATI card owners can have some personal satisfaction because their lazy, butt broke ATI card master can't make anything like PhysX on their own... :up:

I mean where do you want the successful profit making NVidia company to stop ?
Should NVidia just do all the work and pay all the money out, hire all the hundreds of people going to game companies and helping develop games, and just make certain all of it is set for ATI and works on all their cards, all for free ? Has ATI registered for welfare with the world standards board ? :rofl:

Why doesn't ATI just surrender itself and hand it's company stock over to NVidia so we can get on with the above scenario ? :D

How come NVidia has to do nothing or do it all for ATI too, or "it just ain't fair" ? :shrug:

Where did that concept EVER come from to begin with ?
:mad:

If ATI :mad: can't handle it and keep up, then maybe it should bow out, or sell itself to someone who can handle it and manage it, like NVidia, for instance. :ROTF:

I'm really sick of hearing NVidia get TRASHED at every single enthusiast website on the net, because ATI is epic failure and can do NOTHING about their crappy, tesselesser, aa crippled, no money to fix up games and drivers, loser from the wrong side of the broken debt tracks - giant PROBLEM. :eek:

It's not NVidia's fault that ATI can't do anything, right ? Right ?

Your :welcome:

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The bolded parts the only thing I agree with. Otherwise I don't agree with pretty much everything else.

AMD gets the love of an underdog in its graphic division when it obviously is not one anymore.

e.g when AMD has been getting its name on games and getting games optimized for them, e.g battlefield bad company and AvP, people are happy. When NV does it, people say they are boycotting it and then illegally download it.

As far as cards go, they are anything but failing at this point, NV in this respect is making them look good and is starting to make them look epic.

AMD has yet to make a fail card as of late beside the 5830. Everything else has been good to great. I can't say the same of NV. They only have 1 great(the gtx 460) card, maybe 1 good card(gtx 470) and the rest is mediocre. Hell I would even say some cards like the gts 450 and gtx 465 are :banana::banana::banana::banana: and worse than fail.

Oh sucks, now this thread turns into another fanboy jam session. :ROTF:

EDIT:

Okay, i'll play along. AMD graphic gets goodwill, at least from me, nVidia mostly don't. Why ?

1. Card pricing strategy, eversince the sweetspot strategy was implemented, AMD cards have been offering mostly good to great value, i can't say the same over nVidia unless their back are on the wall (GTX 460)

2. TWIMTBP, it's totally okay to get first access & early driver optimization with this program, i even commend them for it. But pulling $h1ts like Batman MSAA blocking, Assassin Creed DX 10.1 patch debacle, over tesselating without in game option, etc, those are really annoying me as hell.

3. PhsyX and propietary stuffs, i don't really care actually if they make sure that it runs like crap on software (with CPU) & can only be run well with their hardware, but blocking competitor card as main rendering card while using their card as PhysX accelerator card, that's one big LOL in my book. This is PC world, hardwares should be compatible, and playing blockade game to suit your marketing interest best is a disgusting tactic from consumers perspective.

4. So many lies and PR spinnings, it gets tiring & exhausting in the end. I'm so tired with woodscrewed card and announcement of an announcement delay tactic, promising heaven while delivering dungs, they can shove 'em through their rear.

If nVidia cards offer great value & suit my need+preferences, i'll still get them in the future -just as my oldies GeForce 4 Ti 4200, GeForce 6600 GT, and GeForce 8800 GT can testify, but they have to win totally on merit, since i got no sympathy at all to the company that manufactures them at this moment. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Rava6e

Why a game developer would do this, i have no idea. Will this cause them to lose 2 mill in revenue? I dont know, but i know that i will not be paying for this game as i got ATI. Perhaps alot of other ATI people will also not pay for this, making the revenue for the game less. Would be fun to have a parallel universe where the developer didnt take the 2 mil, and compare the 2 end results hehe.

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Let's face it, NVidia and the developer already have this figured. They know there are a certain number of raving red fanboys that under no circumstances would be caught dead saying a kind word about NVidia, and would also, given any public opportunity, avoid any TWIMTBP game, or at least screech publicly they would never buy it.

So NVidia and developer figure the non fanboys just shrug their shoulders and buy it anyway, even if they have an ATI card. Maybe the developer doesn't want raging fanboys buying their game, because those types complain and moan a lot about the game with conspiracy theories concerning their cards competitor. They probably don't want the nasty emails and grief. So, if fanboys don't buy it, they are happy.

Next, NVidia figures those looking for a videocard likely want to play Crysis 2, so it's likely that future purchasers that see your attitude decide they will buy an NVidia card so they can play CRYSIS 2 at maximum speed. More sales for NVidia that way. So complaining is good for NVidia.

Not only that, everyone who has an NVidia card already wants to buy it now that it's NVidia friendly. The installed Crysis 2 playable NVidia card base is what, 5 times larger than ATI's ? Something like that. So they WIN, period.

Your only hope is that everyone else that already hates NVidia as much as you do doesn't buy Crysis 2, which is probably not going to happen anyway, as the link angry monkey avatar guy showed - it was all NVidia TWIMTBP on the 1st Crysis, and it apparently sold like crazy for a long, long time.

Finally, they figure, like any sane human being or corporate person (I bet that drives you mad that NVidia is a corporate person) would figure, if they had an ATI card and it ran Crysis 2, they'd buy it anyway because there are a thousand other TWIMTBP games with massive NVidia dollars and programmers work pumped into them, and their ATI cards run those games anyway. In other words, they're banking on sanity in the general populace.

So, although it sounds all protesty, and all hopefully that you can help stab a big knife in NVidia's back because "they screwed you" (according to you), it's much more likely that ATI will make sure the puniest of ATI cards can make a stab at running Crysis 2, although all of them only on the reduced tessellation textures they are limited by, anyway.

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Perhaps the only valid ATI card owner whine is: " Dangit ! NVidia did it again, they delayed another game I was drooling to play, Crysis 2, and all they're doing is pumping up the tessellation and my ATI can't do that worth a crap anyway ! - So I'm waiting for no good reason ! "

Yeah, now that maybe is a valid complaint. That complaint I wouldn't complain about.:up:

Ok, I'm done cross examining.

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

So NVidia and developer figure the non fanboys just shrug their shoulders and buy it anyway, even if they have an ATI card. Maybe the developer doesn't want raging fanboys buying their game, because those types complain and moan a lot about the game with conspiracy theories concerning their cards competitor. They probably don't want the nasty emails and grief. So, if fanboys don't buy it, they are happy.




Ok, I'm done cross examining.

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Yeah, i'm pretty sure JHH sits with developers in a black room concerning about some dudes on forums.... makes total sense :clap:

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Originally Posted by spursindonesia

But pulling $h1ts like Batman MSAA blocking, Assassin Creed DX 10.1 patch debacle,

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Rocksteady invited AMD to work with them to get AA working on AMD GPUs, AMD declined. Likely the game wasn't at all on their radar. NVIDIA worked to get AA working on their hardware, and locked AMD GPUs from using NV's code to make AA work. Essentially, they told AMD, "No free ride today." AMD was never prevented from creating their own solution. Adding code was necessary since the game engine does not natively support anti-aliasing.

Assassin's Creed had DX 10.1 pulled because the implementation was broken. Specifically, rendering steps were being skipped in 10.1. The effect was slightly reduced IQ and artificially inflated framerates for AMD users (since NVIDIA lacked a DX 10.1 solution at the time).

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Ubisoft confirmed that the decision to remove DirectX 10.1 support was made by the game developers and expressly denied any external influence. Michael Beadle, a senior PR manager at Ubisoft, admitted that there was some co-marketing between Nvidia and Ubisoft, but he said that "had nothing to do with the development team or with Assassin's Creed."

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Oh, and the came crashed frequently before the patch, possibly due to a flaw in the DX10.1 implementation. While 10.1 is supposed to make AA give less of a performance hit, it's not supposed to reduce IQ.

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Originally Posted by Florinmocanu

Yeah, i'm pretty sure JHH sits with developers in a black room concerning about some dudes on forums.... makes total sense :clap:

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Of course dude, that the birth of marketing, three dudes from any given company looking up waves of trolling posts, that way they can make informed decisions....:rofl::rofl:

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Originally Posted by spursindonesia

Oh sucks, now this thread turns into another fanboy jam session. :ROTF:

EDIT:

Okay, i'll play along. AMD graphic gets goodwill, at least from me, nVidia mostly don't. Why ?

1. Card pricing strategy, eversince the sweetspot strategy was implemented, AMD cards have been offering mostly good to great value, i can't say the same over nVidia unless their back are on the wall (GTX 460)

2. TWIMTBP, it's totally okay to get first access & early driver optimization with this program, i even commend them for it. But pulling $h1ts like Batman MSAA blocking, Assassin Creed DX 10.1 patch debacle, over tesselating without in game option, etc, those are really annoying me as hell.

3. PhsyX and propietary stuffs, i don't really care actually if they make sure that it runs like crap on software (with CPU) & can only be run well with their hardware, but blocking competitor card as main rendering card while using their card as PhysX accelerator card, that's one big LOL in my book. This is PC world, hardwares should be compatible, and playing blockade game to suit your marketing interest best is a disgusting tactic from consumers perspective.

4. So many lies and PR spinnings, it gets tiring & exhausting in the end. I'm so tired with woodscrewed card and announcement of an announcement delay tactic, promising heaven while delivering dungs, they can shove 'em through their rear.

If nVidia cards offer great value & suit my need+preferences, i'll still get them in the future -just as my oldies GeForce 4 Ti 4200, GeForce 6600 GT, and GeForce 8800 GT can testify, but they have to win totally on merit, since i got no sympathy at all to the company that manufactures them at this moment. :cool:

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That's fine with your attitude for you, but I certainly don't share that nonsense. I'll reply with my perspective so you can see why, to your bullet points.

1. Sweetspot might work for a few dollars on a few frames with certain resolutions and generally zero or low AA, and a lack of other features, like game bundles, for instance.

Be aware I'm in the USA, and pricing is different around the world, so I've seen some complaints that look valid going in both directions for both companies, depending on the country the informer is from.
A few dollars for stable drivers, Cuda, PhysX, easy installing, a better control panel, free games like Warmonger, free screensaver PhysX, free Sled game, better video transcoding, etc, easily trumps a few frames or a few dollars when comparing of course, for ati fans "only a certain frame rate bench and $5-$10", or 10% total purchase price, for instance.
Besides, the prices are equivalent, not one better than the other. That's the real truth - at least in the USA it is.
I just can't do it for ATI for a few bucks if I can find the deal - all the added value, and stable drivers to boot, and a better control panel, and... it just goes on and on all in NVidia's favor.

2. Well TWIMTBP is part of the better drivers and gaming experience and added features like PhysX.
As far as Batman AA, NVidia never blocked ATI from making their own drivers.
Richard Huddy claimed in the Hexus interview he had his best programmer on it. He was vague and avoiding when he was asked if they "were blocked", because of course they were not. MUCH later a patch came out for ATI cards, and ATI and it's fans never said who made it or how it happened.
Seems to me ATI should do their own work from the word go, and not demand NVidia do it for them, or whine NVidia "locked them out" when it never happened.

What the ATI fans really wanted was NVidia's work to be open and free for ATI cards. NO- go do your own work, OR PAY NVIDIA enough $$$ that they let you use it !
How about ATI pay NVidia 25% of the costs of every TWIMTBP program since it helps games get released that run just fine on ATI cards.
In other words, ATI owes NVidia a lot of money, and a lot of THANK YOU's. That's the REAL TRUTH.
That's what is REALITY - without NVidia's big dollar gaming program, ATI would have far fewer games that run their cards.

ATI has been low on money for a long time and can't PAY UP like NVidia does for programming efforts.
Well, that's why NVidia drivers are better, period. They PAY $$$$$$$$$ to make them better.
I'm not going to play games and blame NVidia when ATI cannot deliver.

3. Use the HACK developed by NGOHQ, it's around, if you want PhysX with your ATI card as main. In FACT, Eran, who created the wrapper, got help from NVidia and got slammed by ATI, and publicly stated that ATI purposefully broke his wrapper in their next driver release, while NVidia had sent 2 programmers to help ERAN make sure it worked well.
If you don't like or don't care about PhysX, what is the problem ? No problem, your ATI card doesn't waste time running PhysX, so caring that NVidia has it is total hogwash.
The real problem is ATI card users want PhysX very, very badly, but they cannot admit that, lest they let on NVida cards are superior in saying so.
So, the end result is a bunch of ATI carders screeching NVidia has some crap PhysX junk that they are severely angry is blocked on/w ATI cards, even though they can't stand crappy PhysX and don't care about it.
Needless to say again, I don't believe the sideways words of it.
The truth is they want PhysX, and ATI hasn't anything like it (bullet is nothing to compare, -and developed on nvidia cards/ havok ha ha not that either), and isn't going to be making anything like it with the huge debt they have (since so many of their fanboys don't care for PhysX anyway as ATI hears - they could care less about it, too, huh. BACKFIRE !),
.... so the only solution is to SCREAM loud enough, in hopes that NVidia gives it to ATI for free, or some gigantic tyranny like the EU or some body of standards shoves some "open source" law down everyone's throat and NVidia is forced to port PhysX to open standard - the equivalent of a successful theft from NVidia, which of course would please the ATI fanboy immensely. So good luck on the big theft - NOT.

4. All I can say that's too bad you are that whacked out in the head over nvidia.
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Why in the world would I care about any of that spin you have, whining about their "spin" ?

I'm not here to run any corporation, tell them how to run it, nor pretend I have the only proper ethics capable of doing so, nor would I DARE make my card purchase dependent upon some crazed hate filled notion about some internet wacko FUD concerning either company's in question "morality".

What I do look at is all of everything, and that means with AMD/ATI's massive debt, little to no hired driver team people, lack of anywhere near by a very long shot TWIMTBP equivalent, and thoroughly beaten set of "added values", not to mention the fear of bankruptcy and collapse with the billions of debt- that would mean more stagnant and crashing drivers and problems.... there just is not a current contest.

So I base my decisions on sane and sound data and pretty stark facts.
I'm not going to support ATI because they are an underdog, or are perceived as an underdog "but really are not *anymore", or are so broke and in debt they might soon be screaming "Underdog Underdog!" " Help! Help Help !" like Sweet Polly Purebread...

And, I'm certainly not going to buy an ATI card because "they came out 8 months ahead of NVidia" as I was told to do when the 400 series and it's iterations were released.
I figure the latest release is probably going to be the best release when separated by as much as 8 months, especially in this industry, or rather, I just look at the competitors and compare.
I wondered how many people fell for that PR line "ATI was released 8 months earlier so you should buy it instead of the NVidia 400 series- it was "late" ".
I mean you have to be a moron to spew that one, or fall for it, and I saw it everywhere a lot.

So there you have it, more of my perspective.

I will say this, I am very much looking forward to seeing the 4D shader change that is rumored to be coming with Cayman [that was supposed to come with Barts (5830 rebrand) and did not]. It would be really nice to see ATI actually make a real change and not a rebrand from the HD2900 onward.

I also think that if they make that core change, enough of a core change, it is possible a lot of the driver problems and endless list of frustrations for end users and techs could clear up - I know it sounds like a fantasy and miracle unlikely to happen, but one can always hope for a change for the better.

PS - Of course NVidia is paying up for great and positive changes in Crysis 2, and of course it has been the plan for a long, long time - as gaming companies are well aware that NVidia assistance is at the ready - from the word GO - years ago - they banked on it.
DUH DUH DUH ! :rofl:

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With the GTX480, nVidia had a massive lead in graphics processing techniques

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HAH! hey kitguru, how do jensens balls taste? :p:

about nvidia sponsoring an ULTRA option in crysis2, if it actually does make the game look better, awesome!
i just hope its not like the AA in batman and assasins creed and all that other crap theyve pulled off...

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

PS - Of course NVidia is paying up for great and positive changes in Crysis 2, and of course it has been the plan for a long, long time - as gaming companies are well aware that NVidia assistance is at the ready - from the word GO - years ago - they banked on it.
DUH DUH DUH ! :rofl:

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seriously, that has to be the most ill informed thing that ive seen for months, they dont want to make it better, how would they make it better by paying a dev like crytec who already has a 3d engine (not 3d vision) and already is pros at using tessellation, the only thing that this has any chance of doing is making the game suck for every1 like crysis 1. the g80 and its theoretical tri-sli were what it was coded for but guess what by making it for 1 gpu and what it should do with tri sli it ended up making it broken for every gpu and it made it so it would not scale. so if they are making it for what im thinking is a full GF100, it will suck for all as its ROP starved so we wont get nice dynamic textures (but its also on consoles so i doubt there will be good textures) and from 1st game do u really want a gpu specific optimization. so all that can come from this is requiring 3d vision for 3d, breaking physX configs so it wont work with the cpu and or uses 1 core, and it wont scale with future products.

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Originally Posted by saaya

HAH! hey kitguru, how do jensens balls taste? :p:

about nvidia sponsoring an ULTRA option in crysis2, if it actually does make the game look better, awesome!
i just hope its not like the AA in batman and assasins creed and all that other crap theyve pulled off...

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+1, but u know they dont pay to get an option with more eye candy, crytec would put that out anyways since it makes them look good and gets the PR for their contracting on combat/flight sims.

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3. Use the HACK developed by NGOHQ, it's around, if you want PhysX with your ATI card as main. In FACT, Eran, who created the wrapper, got help from NVidia and got slammed by ATI, and publicly stated that ATI purposefully broke his wrapper in their next driver release, while NVidia had sent 2 programmers to help ERAN make sure it worked well.
If you don't like or don't care about PhysX, what is the problem ? No problem, your ATI card doesn't waste time running PhysX, so caring that NVidia has it is total hogwash.
The real problem is ATI card users want PhysX very, very badly, but they cannot admit that, lest they let on NVida cards are superior in saying so.
So, the end result is a bunch of ATI carders screeching NVidia has some crap PhysX junk that they are severely angry is blocked on/w ATI cards, even though they can't stand crappy PhysX and don't care about it.
Needless to say again, I don't believe the sideways words of it.
The truth is they want PhysX, and ATI hasn't anything like it (bullet is nothing to compare, -and developed on nvidia cards/ havok ha ha not that either), and isn't going to be making anything like it with the huge debt they have (since so many of their fanboys don't care for PhysX anyway as ATI hears - they could care less about it, too, huh. BACKFIRE !),
.... so the only solution is to SCREAM loud enough, in hopes that NVidia gives it to ATI for free, or some gigantic tyranny like the EU or some body of standards shoves some "open source" law down everyone's throat and NVidia is forced to port PhysX to open standard - the equivalent of a successful theft from NVidia, which of course would please the ATI fanboy immensely. So good luck on the big theft - NOT.

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Why would nV send him engineers to make it work rather than just disabling the check themselves? Also have you forgotten that nV was programming their driver releases to work around his hacks? Why would they do that if they were helping him?

ATi users do not want PhysX. They want the content that PhysX is holding back (most of it anyways, depending on the situation).

Snip !

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Originally Posted by zanzabar

seriously, that has to be the most ill informed thing that ive seen for months, they dont want to make it better, how would they make it better by paying a dev like crytec who already has a 3d engine (not 3d vision) and already is pros at using tessellation, the only thing that this has any chance of doing is making the game suck for every1 like crysis 1. the g80 and its theoretical tri-sli were what it was coded for but guess what by making it for 1 gpu and what it should do with tri sli it ended up making it broken for every gpu and it made it so it would not scale. so if they are making it for what im thinking is a full GF100, it will suck for all as its ROP starved so we wont get nice dynamic textures (but its also on consoles so i doubt there will be good textures) and from 1st game do u really want a gpu specific optimization. so all that can come from this is requiring 3d vision for 3d, breaking physX configs so it wont work with the cpu and or uses 1 core, and it wont scale with future products.
...Snip !

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Ok, let's see what you said.
1. Nvidia is evil, they don't want to make it better

Conspiracy mindset...

2. Crytek is already a pro at tessellation (new DX11 stuff no one is a pro at yet, since new cards just came out using it, and not many games - in fact the best we have so far is a benchmark, NOT a game)
So Crytek couldn't possibly need any assistance?
I guess that works for ATI and ati fans... gee maybe that's why ati doesn't help game developers - no help needed ! roflmao :rofl:

Hey, those hundreds and hundreds of programmers and card geniuses from Intel, Nvidia, and the few from ATI, we'll just tell 'em all to go home - forever, since you know it's already " easily done". WOW:up: Great, you've convinced me...:rofl:

3. Crysis 1 sucked for everyone, according to you. :rofl:
:up: Great ! You got that perspective I always shoot for, it sucked, but, you care ! Hmm... another convincing drama...

4. No G80 tri sli, so no Crysis fun ? :D:D:D Whoo hoo !
So a game that drives videocard and system development is bad ? "Can it play Crysis ?" - meant a lot of cards and a lot of computer hardware was sold, and that my friend, is good for all of us computer gamers ! :up:
Besides it runs w/ my 'crappy' vidcards, too - just not with the triple digits fraps a rockin'.
So, the problem was, the problem is, a game was made that wilted your epeenie ? :shrug:

5. " it would not scale " - Well, I guess I'll provide a link.
http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforc...-sli-review/21 good enough ? near doubling on scaling... I know that's Warhead - same difference whatever- if not offer proof - and I'll destroy the rebuttal

6. " so if they are making it for what im thinking is a full GF100, it will suck for all "
One word: " UPGRADE ! "
Or downgrade, whatever, "it will suck for all and it sucked for all!!!" < that's YOU.


Also, the whine is rather pathetic since many, many, many games are not played on the high let alone highest settings by the vast majority of computer gaming cards.
If yer sys is like little sis, either do what 99% do in that case and go with the autodetect in Crysis, or don't play.

Just because it's a big game that requires big boys to play at the top, doesn't mean it's bad. Something has to drive the future, and without it - welcome to the 3rd world.
I suggest covering the tiny epeen if necessary, and not pointing out it's deficiencies. :rofl:

7. " breaking physX configs so it wont work with the cpu and or uses 1 core "....
blah blah X87 blah .. blah... X87, blah blah, my cpu has only 1/5th or 1/10th the transistors and has to run the OS, but , but but, blah blah blah, tiny core cpu so few transistors but it can blah blah blah... blah.

The reason GPU's are online for the big compute is because they are HUGE compared to tiny silicore cpu's. A cpu just ain't gonna cut it until it grows 5-10X in transistor count size.
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Ok, you had such a sourpuss bad attitude there, I do admit I kinda feel sorry for you. I hope you can make it past this whole Mean Green Money Making Crysis 2 Machine thing of total total suck for everyone. Nice critique, I think the NYT may hire you. :clap:

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Originally Posted by STEvil

Why would nV send him engineers to make it work rather than just disabling the check themselves? Also have you forgotten that nV was programming their driver releases to work around his hacks? Why would they do that if they were helping him?

ATi users do not want PhysX. They want the content that PhysX is holding back (most of it anyways, depending on the situation).

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I think NVidia sent him the engineers because they were hoping it would make ATI play ball. In that case ATI would pay NVidia.
When AMD/ATI said no, alongside NVidia deciding then driver issues and cost of supporting that without ATI's official sanction, not to mention the threat of LAWSUIT from ATI or end users for "wrecking their cards" performance or burning them up with "proprietary code" - was just too much, so NVidia took the change in direction they had to.

PhysX isn't holding back any content - buy an NVidia card, PhysX delivers content, (or God forbid put the hack in. Heck, you know PhysX runs w an ATI card alone).

There's no have a right to what YOU DIDN'T PAY FOR ! You wanna pay for "the content" of PhysX, GO BUY THE NVIDIA CARD, or better yet, go make your OWN IMPLEMENTATION.
Ragging about a company who made something, and now people want to take it for nothing. PAY UP ! :ROTF:

Look, the whole free Western World is based upon ownership of property. Unless ATI and Intel pony up some giant sum of $$$:D$$$:D$$$:D$$$ to pay Nvidia for all the costs and all the future benefit, F O R G E T about' it !

It's not "take for free". Gimme gimme gimme, I want I want I want, and all the hatred the type spews at NVidia, coaxing that friendly freebie out with all that honey, huh.

I mean let's face it, if NVidia never gives the ati a speck of PhysX, EVER, just to grind it back as deserved, no one in the entire world could properly blame them. :up:

Yeah, all that honey the wanters send toward NVidia, surely that PhysX "content" is on it's way....:rofl:

Everyone knows the bottom line is if ATI pays enough, it's ported tomorrow. "ATI" is "broke".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

So NVidia and developer figure the non fanboys just shrug their shoulders and buy it anyway, even if they have an ATI card.

---

Well considering their target market is millions of people then yes the moans of random guys on the internet probably don't matter too much. It's fine for people to overestimate their importance or assume that a lot of other people feel the same way they do but these companies see the big picture and understand their demographic. All the marketing stuff is noise - most people will buy whatever product has the features they want. There's no notion of "fairness" in the real world when it comes to game or hardware purchases. The funny thing is you don't see console players talking about boycotting some 360 game because of extra content on the PS3. I guess in some ways console gamers are more grown up :)

50 cents per post, or do they pay by LOC?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

So, although it sounds all protesty, and all hopefully that you can help stab a big knife in NVidia's back because "they screwed you" (according to you), it's much more likely that ATI will make sure the puniest of ATI cards can make a stab at running Crysis 2, although all of them only on the reduced tessellation textures they are limited by, anyway.



Ok, I'm done cross examining.

---

I just had to.... - since when tesselation has anything to do with textures hmmm? :p::D care to elaborate as inquisitively as with NV/ATI debate? :D

Disclaimer: - own both green and red team cards - couldn't care less about one or the other :) - just to not add fuel to your fire SiliconDoc :D

anyone else curious who silicondoc is?

with 15 posts in just 2 threads, both of which he bashes the crap out of anyone mad at nvidia
i think someone needs to tone it down a little.

A wise man once said; Do not feed the trolls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amorphous

Rocksteady invited AMD to work with them to get AA working on AMD GPUs, AMD declined. Likely the game wasn't at all on their radar. NVIDIA worked to get AA working on their hardware, and locked AMD GPUs from using NV's code to make AA work. Essentially, they told AMD, "No free ride today." AMD was never prevented from creating their own solution. Adding code was necessary since the game engine does not natively support anti-aliasing.

Assassin's Creed had DX 10.1 pulled because the implementation was broken. Specifically, rendering steps were being skipped in 10.1. The effect was slightly reduced IQ and artificially inflated framerates for AMD users (since NVIDIA lacked a DX 10.1 solution at the time). Oh, and the came crashed frequently before the patch, possibly due to a flaw in the DX10.1 implementation. While 10.1 is supposed to make AA give less of a performance hit, it's not supposed to reduce IQ.

---

So you take w/e the word of Nvidia+whomever they have paid off as gospel? Right, and OJ had nothing to do with those murders either. :rolleyes:

You know people are skeptical and rightfully so, you may buy the corporate line they and Ubisoft put out, but many don't. Each person has a right to decide for themselves, and if that creates ill will towards Nvidia, well boo-hoo, they can figure out a way to win it back.

Nvidia was much loved in the 800GTX > 8800GT era, but the stunts they are perceived to have pulled off; their pricing, rebranding, aquiring ageia, blocking the use of ati cards, dropping support for the ppu, all of these things have contributed to a change of heart for a lot of people. I don't see how Nvidia can't realize their actions will have reactions.


EDIT:Also, I've had about a dozen Nvidia cards including the Riva 128, my first "gpu". If you followed Nvidia back then they were ANTI-glide/propietary. They were all about open standards, DX and OpenGL vs Glide and the like. They are doing the exact samething they complained 3Dfx was doing with the physx situation that they have created today, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I hope that Intel can up their game, I think Nvidia would have to play by a different set of rules if so.

Why are ppl even taking what Kitguru says at face value is beyond me. :shakes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manicdan

anyone else curious who silicondoc is?

with 15 posts in just 2 threads, both of which he bashes the crap out of anyone mad at nvidia
i think someone needs to tone it down a little.

---

Dear Mandican,

You just happened to have post #2 or #3, and since you - ummm--- "are mad at nvidia", it was convenient to quote your one liner while I made my points. In other words mandican, it's not personal, and who could bash that cute little avatar pic you got there you little sweetie you.

Furthermore, you really don't want me to go through this thread from page one and respond to all those who "are mad at nvidia", like you falsely claimed I did, do you ? Because I left a lot of those posts out of the picture. :)
Yeah, I know you don't... you don't have to answer that.

Hey, you have your opinion, I have mine, I made my points with logic and courtesy.

You're no longer angry at nvidia because I made so many good and unassailable points ?
I think so.
See, you're happy now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wez

A wise man once said; Do not feed the trolls.

---

A wise man would realize that starts with the feeding, on page 1.
Well, let's face it, it was a full course meal with 2 desserts, and a bottle of wine for the road, well aged.

" wow this is turning just as bad as physx "

Yes, so... plenty of food offered up, they stuff someone they ought to expect some output.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Overfiend

I just had to.... - since when tesselation has anything to do with textures hmmm? :p::D care to elaborate as inquisitively as with NV/ATI debate? :D

Disclaimer: - own both green and red team cards - couldn't care less about one or the other :) - just to not add fuel to your fire SiliconDoc :D

---

When tessellation is applied, added textures are filled in, or bulged out, as the case may be. :up:

Nice try, and I thank you, since that was all you had, the massive bedrock that remained untouched is impressive.:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

Dear Mandican,

You just happened to have post #2 or #3, and since you - ummm--- "are mad at nvidia", it was convenient to quote your one liner while I made my points. In other words mandican, it's not personal, and who could bash that cute little avatar pic you got there you little sweetie you.

Furthermore, you really don't want me to go through this thread from page one and respond to all those who "are mad at nvidia", like you falsely claimed I did, do you ? Because I left a lot of those posts out of the picture. :)
Yeah, I know you don't... you don't have to answer that.

Hey, you have your opinion, I have mine, I made my points with logic and courtesy.

You're no longer angry at nvidia because I made so many good and unassailable points ?
I think so.
See, you're happy now.

---

my apologies if im wrong here,
but your attitude is showing obvious sarcasm and extreme fanboyism and you are hunting down people trying to portray nvidia as your god. thats truly my interpretation of your posts.

you quoted me out of continence, but really quoting is used for replying directly to that person, unless you specify that your not.

you also seemed to take my point out of context, because when i use the word "this" its relevant to things stated just before my post, which was the news about nvidia pushing for more things to work better on their hardware from the start, rather than doing things normally and having a driver war, we have a hardware compatibility war. if i had made my exact same post this far into the thread, i would have to clarify things more since the topic has changed greatly.

my perspective is simple, i do not appreciate nvidia doing things to enhance their sales, at the cost of the rest of the world. with physx, the argument ive stood by is that they can offer nearly the same IQ, with half the resources, and nearly the same with any quad core out there. basically its bloated and inefficient. im not saying phsyx sucks or looks like crap, but that they build it to run like crap assuming we will all get in line like sheep because we dont know what it could have looked like if they catered to mid class.

now we move onto tessellation, where weve already herd HAWX 2 uses a method that dosnt favor AMD, and now we have crysis being updated so that it works best on the most expensive card out there. tessellation is a great idea, but can be done wrong very easily. and guess what, nvidia is about selling as many expensive cards as possible, not about offering the same IQ for midrange people.

summary: i want to see optimized, not bloated games, and nvidia dosnt seem to agree

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amorphous

It really was that simple for the original Crysis. There wasn't an even remotely competitive GPU for the 8800GTX from AMD until after the 9800GTX was also launched.

---

Unless my dates are wrong the R600 was released on May 2007 while Crysis wasn't released until November 2007. Competition was there at the time the game was released. Furthermore, previous gen derivatives were available upon release of Crysis. And we know the game worked using older video cards :).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amorphous

If by, "specifically code Crysis 2 for 580" you mean, "enable extreme levels of tessellation," I certainly hope so. Crytek isn't going to rip apart their engine and make it only work on NVIDIA. $2M, if that's really how much NVIDIA gave them, isn't worth it.

---

Was Crysis specifically coded for tessellation? As I recall there was no such thing back than. If it wasn't I don't think it's limited to just tessellation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amorphous

All this article does is pave the way for fanboys to cry foul if NVIDIA comes out on top in Crysis 2. Even if the reason that NVIDIA is on top is because of NVIDIA's tessellation engine.

I'm really tired of crappy console ports. If it takes NVIDIA pumping money into a company to make that happen, I'm not going to demonize NVIDIA. They're trying to increase demand for their GPUs. I doubt AMD would do the same, even if they could afford it. That's not their corporate culture.


Amorphous

---

Having read the remainder of your post you seem extremely upset over this. Perhaps you are unaware but their newer version of their engine is multi platform. So, IMO, the days of having a specifically PC coded Cryengine will come to an end with Crysis 2. Some think that the game won't look as good as it's predecessor. Some don't care. However, I think we can all agree that this game won't cater to the PC gaming crowd specifically. Therefore, there is no real need to make it specifically for one video card over another. :up: It remains to be seen from the company if this is true or not. I hope it's not true but having seen that slide it won't be any shock to me if it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

When tessellation is applied, added textures are filled in, or bulged out, as the case may be. :up:

---

Ummmm, no textures are not magically improved when tessellation is applied. Tessellation actually increases the need for higher resolution textures otherwise the added geometric detail is muddied by low resolution art.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manicdan

the argument ive stood by is that they can offer nearly the same IQ, with half the resources, and nearly the same with any quad core out there.

---

It's not nVidia's job to write CPU physics libraries.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

It's not nVidia's job to write CPU physics libraries.

---

physx is used in many games as cpu only, so they already have that part done,
the statement was about resources needed relative to eye candy, nothing more

Ok, let me rephrase that. It's not nVidia's job to write software to take advantage of hardware they don't sell - i.e. quad core cpus. Any work they do in that regard is either a favor or something they view as advantageous to their end goal of selling graphics cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Ummmm, no textures are not magically improved when tessellation is applied. Tessellation actually increases the need for higher resolution textures otherwise the added geometric detail is muddied by low resolution art.

---

Well, that's good you realize the card has to work to fill in the textures, but the idea behind it, is of course, quite magic, since EFFICIENCY in doing so is the result of tessellation.
So "tessellated textures" would be those that reside atop the more detailed wire frame, hence the whole idea and claimed reason for tessellation, more detail with less work.
I see you are having an argument with yourself in a desperate attempt for a non-existent correction. :rofl:

Now you can go back to textures themselves are not "tesselated", in a word game quite worthy of the thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manicdan

my apologies if im wrong here,
but your attitude is showing obvious sarcasm and extreme fanboyism and you are hunting down people trying to portray nvidia as your god. thats truly my interpretation of your posts.

you quoted me out of continence, but really quoting is used for replying directly to that person, unless you specify that your not.

you also seemed to take my point out of context, because when i use the word "this" its relevant to things stated just before my post, which was the news about nvidia pushing for more things to work better on their hardware from the start, rather than doing things normally and having a driver war, we have a hardware compatibility war. if i had made my exact same post this far into the thread, i would have to clarify things more since the topic has changed greatly.

my perspective is simple, i do not appreciate nvidia doing things to enhance their sales, at the cost of the rest of the world. with physx, the argument ive stood by is that they can offer nearly the same IQ, with half the resources, and nearly the same with any quad core out there. basically its bloated and inefficient. im not saying phsyx sucks or looks like crap, but that they build it to run like crap assuming we will all get in line like sheep because we dont know what it could have looked like if they catered to mid class.

now we move onto tessellation, where weve already herd HAWX 2 uses a method that dosnt favor AMD, and now we have crysis being updated so that it works best on the most expensive card out there. tessellation is a great idea, but can be done wrong very easily. and guess what, nvidia is about selling as many expensive cards as possible, not about offering the same IQ for midrange people.

summary: i want to see optimized, not bloated games, and nvidia dosnt seem to agree

---

Apology accepted.

Now, isn't it true that if you didn't have this big 'ol hatefest chip and conspiracy theory against NVidia with let's face it, multiple screeds, there would be no "fanboy" problem ? :yepp:

I mean I can take it or leave it, if I want PhysX I'll buy an NVidia card, and if I could care less, I'll buy an ATI card.
I've got no problem - I have choices.

But you WANT something that you aren't getting. You're angry, you're demanding, you have a giant set of chips on your shoulders, you're on a mission to do some damage and take it out on that which you hate and disagree with.
You are, therefore, the fanboy, not I.

I merely explained the very simple freedom/ rights/western world/ everyone knows it by the time they are an adult, how it works, you do your thing you make it you own it you get paid, you buy you sell - the greatest thing man has yet achieved for a society...

But you don't want that ! You are filled with self righteous indignation to the brim and want your way, or the highway, and if that target of yours does not do your will, that's it ! You know what's best for the world, for everyone, and darn it, Nvidia did not do that!

So, you're not the dictator, you're not the owner, you aren't the one calling the shots for nvidia in your perfect fantasy world, so you're dang mad.

That's a fanboy, buddy. You "cling" to ati as a result.

I don't have a problem with ATI ( you might say I complained about their debt and drivers and lack of add ons, but that's their deal, their situation, and I realize that's the way it is, and don't demand some power or the right to change that - I pointed out I realize they might not be ABLE to change that - indeed instead I merely hoped the Cayman would be a great miracle that straightened some of that out- ati is 1/4th nvidia's size and so that's how the ball bounces), and I don't have a problem with NVidia.

But you do. You want nvidia to do what you say, want them to have done what you have determined would be better for you and the world, claim they could have and should have, and you demand it, the sooner the better, or you're on their case, and anyone's who doesn't see it your way, and has the brains to say why.

According to you NVIDIA has SINNED ! :slapass:

Well, that's fanboyism to me.

I on the other hand accept the two situations and purchase accordingly.
Really, take a look, I'm attacked for defending nvidia, but let's face, you're attacking nvidia you're on a rampage, attacking attacking attacking... you're the one with the big 'ol problem and fury.:D

Sorry, I don't buy a single word of it, and for good reason, as I have extensively explained !

I say, drop the hatred and the demands ! :up:

My god, your logic is terrible. Just because he's being demeaning to a company he's in love with ATI? Disliking one thing implies liking another?

Furthermore, a fanboy is not someone who is overly critical of a company. A fanboy is someone who irrationally loves a company. Your opinions are quite irrational, as ATI has produced miracle after miracle since the nadir of the R600 series. Other classic symptoms include: complaining about their debt (when it doesn't matter to you), and complaining about their drivers (lol). From an objective standpoint nvidia has only managed to execute in top end (at the expense of going deaf) and the sweet spot recently, while in the past generation they got taught a hard lesson in pricing by ATI.

x86 and DX11 hardware are very special duopolies. They're special because you have two companies that are producing hardware meant to run one class of software libraries. Can you connect the dots and see what will happen if one hardware manufacturer begins to polarize the software its product can run?

Leave this thread. Your lack ... nay, negative contributions are pretty nauseous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cegras

My god, your logic is terrible. Just because he's being demeaning to a company he's in love with ATI? Disliking one thing implies liking another?

Furthermore, a fanboy is not someone who is overly critical of a company. A fanboy is someone who irrationally loves a company.

x86 and DX11 hardware are very special duopolies. They're special because you have two companies that are producing hardware meant to run one class of software libraries. Can you connect the dots and see what will happen if one hardware manufacturer begins to polarize the software its product can run?

---

Look no further than here anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blindbox

I have one simple question. Are you the same SiliconDoc that has been trolling anandtech's ATI reviews?

He got banned.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2849/?all=true

Some fanboyism example.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2745/?all=true

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2689/?all=true

:rolleyes:

---

The above are just some of the many examples.

I'm just telling you guys to be wary of him. Don't shoot the messenger! :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cegras

My god, your logic is terrible. Just because he's being demeaning to a company he's in love with ATI? Disliking one thing implies liking another?

Furthermore, a fanboy is not someone who is overly critical of a company. A fanboy is someone who irrationally loves a company. Your opinions are quite irrational, as ATI has produced miracle after miracle since the nadir of the R600 series. Other classic symptoms include: complaining about their debt (when it doesn't matter to you), and complaining about their drivers (lol).

x86 and DX11 hardware are very special duopolies. They're special because you have two companies that are producing hardware meant to run one class of software libraries. Can you connect the dots and see what will happen if one hardware manufacturer begins to polarize the software its product can run?

---

I said, specifically, as a result of his nvidia hate chips, he clings to ati.
Now you may be ADDING "your definition" of fanboy to my words, but in a two card world, there's really not much distinction or difference, and that of course, is the reason my logic is 100% sound.

He despises nvidia, and thus, he clings to ati. The result is such, unless of course it's really weird, and he's into IDT, Intel I740, or something.... ( which of course I doubt)

So, wether he loves ati or not, to really stick it to nvidia, he can praise ati like the fanboys of such note do, and of course, they almost invariably at some point open up the same screeds against nvidia... " the corporate culture and evil business practices".

I submit I am certainly far more accurate than you.

you know nothing about me or why i purchase things, your every assumption is horribly wrong.

if im such a fanboy, why have i spent only 180$ on video cards in the last 3 years?
owned the same motherboard for almost 4 years now?
or still on ddr2?

cause i prefer to buy what works great for the price, and i only upgrade when i actually feel like i need something.
physx and tessellation are so premature right now that its not worth a 5$ premium to me (if the cost difference was really just 5$). if they were implemented right, and the cost was right, then i sure would jump right on it. but for now both are utter failures to me. this dosnt mean i hate nvidia, if i needed to use cuda i would get one right away.

Wut, how is he clinging to ATI?

Let's abstract your logic:

"I dislike one thing." You imply: "Therefore I have to like its competitor."

So far, while ATI has paid off developers to optimize games (maybe with Valve?) I don't think they've been promoting proprietary packages (CUDA and PhysX) ad nauseum in reviews (reviewer's guide for nvidia GTX2xx: PHYSX CUDA PHYSX CUDA). So until they do so, in many people's eyes they continue to a little bit better as far as marketing and overall arrogance are concerned.

But that above paragraph is not the point. The point is that your logic is childish reflects your mindset accordingly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cegras

SNIP !

Furthermore, a fanboy is not someone who is overly critical of a company. A fanboy is someone who irrationally loves a company. Your opinions are quite irrational, as ATI has produced miracle after miracle since the nadir of the R600 series.

---

So, you're saying you love ati, and I should as well, even though you just said him hating nvidia does not mean he loves ati, and then, immedaitely afterwards you go on to explain why I should love ati as you do. :rofl:
Next you explain why I love nvidia... here it comes


[QUOTE]Other classic symptoms include: complaining about their debt (when it doesn't matter to you),[?QUOTE]

We just saw BFG disappear, AMD was on the top 10 for bankruptcy last year, so of course it matters, as even now they can't pay for the driver teams properly.
OF COURSE it matters to me, as only a fool puts their cards in an empty basket company.
Isn't it common on the net for the foolish to claim they've "invested" in this or that videocard ? Yes, it is. Well, word up, a card company swimming in debt - not a wise "investment".
You saying it doesn't matter, makes you wrong, period. This is the world of capitalism and money talks and makes the drivers and cards walk, and claiming otherwise has zero cred.

Quote:

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and complaining about their drivers (lol).

---

Like so many other ati users, it's no longer a big secret, especially after so many in a row monthly update epic fails.
To deny it is to be a liar, period.

Quote:

---

From an objective standpoint nvidia has only managed to execute in top end (at the expense of going deaf) and the sweet spot recently,

---

You're not objective, so who cares what your analysis is ? I've seen who you are on this board long ago. I know exactly where you come from. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Nvidia has a lot more in sales and base than your problems with their recent top end.
You talk about 10% and forget the other 90%. :rofl:

Quote:

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while in the past generation they got taught a hard lesson in pricing by ATI.

---

I think the hard lesson is NVIDIA's 2 million spent on Crysis 2, more than ATI's entire 1M last Q "profit" while they are "executing with wondrous success" according to you and on top of their game ! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Let me know when ATI has quadrupled it's yearly sales and is knocking on the same door NVidia's gigantic market knocks on in comparison.

Quote:

---

x86 and DX11 hardware are very special duopolies. They're special because you have two companies that are producing hardware meant to run one class of software libraries. Can you connect the dots and see what will happen if one hardware manufacturer begins to polarize the software its product can run?

---

I can see cuda and brook. Can you ?
I see Badaboom, and I see ATI with their own Stream...
I see PhysX and I see ati epic Bullet P fail.

I see ATI having to BUY PHYSX, instead of you guys flailing around that Nvidia has done some terrible wrong.

If amdati cannot, or simply refuses, or waits too long, they may pay a terrible, terrible price.

If you people want to do something for the world and for your utopian vision, get on the horn, on the net, and on the phone, and get on the backs of some big investors and money players, get them lined up and convince them your lovely broken and in debt crashing card company is worthy of big investment, and either make an OPEN STANDARD yourselves, with your great investment decisions and wise how it should be dictats, or pony up the big bucks to NVidia
- but first - > talk really, really, really nice to them, and about them, and just maybe, just maybe you'll have enough of what it takes to do business like adults and not criminals, and get PhysX on your ati cards.

That's how it works fella. P E R I O D !:up:

Isn't it really just an epic failure for ati, isn't that really what we have here ? I mean not for lack of trying - they have tried - Bullet Physics is one sick dying puppy.

Now, of course, big time advanced Crysis 2 is also "not fair! and "too good!" and it's just like "Physx!" - Nvidia is ahead, and there's all the angry little ethical e-ceo's who scream how this or that has to be run by NVidia, instead of how they do it.

Great. :rofl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manicdan

you know nothing about me or why i purchase things, your every assumption is horribly wrong.

if im such a fanboy, why have i spent only 180$ on video cards in the last 3 years?
owned the same motherboard for almost 4 years now?
or still on ddr2?

cause i prefer to buy what works great for the price, and i only upgrade when i actually feel like i need something.
physx and tessellation are so premature right now that its not worth a 5$ premium to me (if the cost difference was really just 5$). if they were implemented right, and the cost was right, then i sure would jump right on it. but for now both are utter failures to me. this dosnt mean i hate nvidia, if i needed to use cuda i would get one right away.

---

Oh, of course, of course. Thanks for straightening me out. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cegras

Wut, how is he clinging to ATI?

Let's abstract your logic:

"I dislike one thing." You imply: "Therefore I have to like its competitor."

So far, while ATI has paid off developers to optimize games (maybe with Valve?) I don't think they've been promoting proprietary packages (CUDA and PhysX) ad nauseum in reviews (reviewer's guide for nvidia GTX2xx: PHYSX CUDA PHYSX CUDA). So until they do so, in many people's eyes they continue to a little bit better as far as marketing and overall arrogance are concerned.

But that above paragraph is not the point. The point is that your logic is childish reflects your mindset accordingly.

---

Wow, you are impressive.
You're right, I should go look at his posts and see what's he said in the past first, before making ridiculously childish assumptions.

I should cut my view down, contain the thing, bring it down a level Lincoln could picture, I mean, Lord knows that would go a long way to improving the view. :up:

Thanks.

lol this "new" guy cracks me up..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rai

lol this "new" guy cracks me up..

---

enjoy it while it lasts, no good things last forever

Tessellated textures? Ha. Who wants to place odds on him lasting a week?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Tessellated textures? Ha. Who wants to place odds on him lasting a week?

---

With you four super friendly welcome mats (as your finger clicking cries to mods buzzes your modem in a flurried blitzkrieg of resends), my golly, a lifetime here is already set in stone. :rofl:

Just remember, you 'all lost miserably in the discussion, time and again, in front of each other, and there's not a thing you can do about that. Sharpen that banstick, because you're gonna need it for your only victory. :up:

I hope it does use heavy tesselation. It's a technology that both Nvidia and AMD have access to (unlike Physx), so both have an equal playing field here. AMD should be looking into improving it's tesselation unit (which it probably is), to counter this threat. The initial tesselator in the AMD cards was pretty much a load of rubbish, but then again it didn't need to be much better than that as no games used it.

Now we're in a position that games are starting to use advanced graphically capabilities, soething other than a console port and we're arguing saying it's wrong. Honestly, sometimes fanboys get in the way of innovation.

The thread topic concerns Nvidia bribing Crytec to change the content/coding or advertising logo's of Crysis 2 that it favours Nvidia hardware. To me, no matter which way you look at it this kind of bribery stinks. I would say the same if ATI were doing the bribing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

Wow, you are impressive.
You're right, I should go look at his posts and see what's he said in the past first, before making ridiculously childish assumptions.

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Now with all due respect;
You should perhaps go through your own posts and read them all very carefully before you accuse anybody of being a fanboy.

You have more or less responded to every post in this thread that has had anything positive to say regarding ATI, or negative to say regarding Nvidia with your own brand of dare I say it... fanboyism.


Yet you fail to respond to this post
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=135

I respectfully suggest chilling out a little. Your arguments do reek of fanaticism and you certainly don't owe Nvidia anything. Just like ATI they will never thank you for buying or verbally supporting their hardware, or get you unbanned from a forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

With you four super friendly welcome mats (as your finger clicking cries to mods buzzes your modem in a flurried blitzkrieg of resends), my golly, a lifetime here is already set in stone. :rofl:

Just remember, you 'all lost miserably in the discussion, time and again, in front of each other, and there's not a thing you can do about that. Sharpen that banstick, because you're gonna need it for your only victory. :up:

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Not at all. I hope you stick around for a long time - could use the laughs. I'm sure in your head you think you've won something by inciting a flamefest with that drivel you keep posting but hey it's your head. Have a blast!

But thats enough nourishment from me today. I'll just wait patiently for an explanation of how tessellation improves texture quality. I'm sure it'll be forthcoming shortly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

Paragraphs upon paragraphs of drivel and nonsense

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Attacking a paragraph I put in as an afterthought doesn't refute your logic as being incredibly inane.

Quote:

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You're not objective, so who cares what your analysis is ? I've seen who you are on this board long ago. I know exactly where you come from. Let's not pretend otherwise.

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Actually, I'm superman. Did we have a one night stand that left you burned? You should remind me ... I forget these things.

Also, care to point out how bullet physics was a fail for ATI? Apparently they're affiliated now ... I never knew since the writer is employed by Sony. The main point I was trying to make was that ATI supports an open standard (following the lines of x86 and DX11) that does not require proprietary hardware.

A quote from you with relevance:

Quote:

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I merely explained the very simple freedom/ rights/western world/ everyone knows it by the time they are an adult, how it works, you do your thing you make it you own it you get paid, you buy you sell - the greatest thing man has yet achieved for a society...

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Have you ever compared this situation to console-exclusive releases? How, if you want to play a game that's exclusive for one console, you have to pony the cash up for it?

Hey, if you want to buy ATI and Nvidia cards and swap em out, or mix and match them, feel free to spend your money. It's yours afterall, right? You're a member of society, it's your ultimate decision on where you want to flush your money.

Quote:

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Let me know when ATI has quadrupled it's yearly sales and is knocking on the same door NVidia's gigantic market knocks on in comparison.

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Ah yes, more erroneous conclusions. I assumed you think nvidia controls a ton of the present marketshare, instead of merely having legacy share left over from the 7xxx and 8xxx series?

Wait ... how is any of the tinsel you posted relevant? The moment you're wrong, like other poor saps who came before you, you love to fall back on nvidia's supposed financial strength, huge marketshare, lots of proprietary cash cows, and let's not forget, 3D, CUDA, PhysX, and ....

Terrible drivers! I hope you had the humility to keep your mouth shut when nvidia's drivers were causing a majority of Vista crashes.

i just think that it is really good
all that nVidia does for PC Game Players
let's just be happy about that:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by E30M3

i just think that it is really good
all that nVidia does for PC Game Players
let's just be happy about that:)

---

It's good ... for people who buy nvidia. Hum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cegras

It's good ... for people who buy nvidia. Hum.

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it is good. AMD are not excluded from tessellation, and tessellation is certainly a good improvement for PC gaming.

AMD did little with the tessellation engine on early DX11 cards; there was no need as there were no DX11 games. Nvidia architecture allows for better tessellation, and they are promoting this through paying for game designers to use it.

Now if AMD want to respond with a powerful tessellation unit, that is good in my books (which they are doing if you haven't noticed). This means the PC buyer is getting graphically better games than they would of.

This is what fair competition is all about. Physx is not about fair competition as AMD don't have free access to this. Tessellation however is free and a big improvement for all PC gamers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by s1nykuL

The thread topic concerns Nvidia bribing Crytec to change the content/coding or advertising logo's of Crysis 2 that it favours Nvidia hardware. To me, no matter which way you look at it this kind of bribery stinks. I would say the same if ATI were doing the bribing.




Now with all due respect;
You should perhaps go through your own posts and read them all very carefully before you accuse anybody of being a fanboy.

You have more or less responded to every post in this thread that has had anything positive to say regarding ATI, or negative to say regarding Nvidia with your own brand of dare I say it... fanboyism.


Yet you fail to respond to this post
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=135

I respectfully suggest chilling out a little. Your arguments do reek of fanaticism and you certainly don't owe Nvidia anything. Just like ATI they will never thank you for buying or verbally supporting their hardware, or get you unbanned from a forum.

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I see, another nvidia hater ( I saw your prior posts and already knew, not like sore thumbs can be hidden). Well, you've got plenty of company.

Bask in your collective threats against me.

Come on call in your buds and threaten me some more, that's how you do it ! Come on, a few more of you perhaps ?

Since that's ALL you have to say, WHINING about me, you've lost. MISERABLY.

Enjoy eachothers childish screeding together to "shut me up" as you whine and whine and whine more and more, and of course the thread is as dumb as you fellas and your whinng, for some time now - save for my lucid points, which NONE of you really have responded to.

Congratulations, I deserve to be elevated out of this pile of stupidity like RIGHT NOW !

All you could do was whine about nvidia "tactic" like a repeating bleating parrotsheep ? Really!? Wow.

That is so, so sad. You guys only have a couple stupid lines for all your entrenched hatred.

See ya later whiners! :rofl:

Enjoy all your misery ! :up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motiv

it is good. AMD are not excluded from tessellation, and tessellation is certainly a good improvement for PC gaming.

AMD did little with the tessellation engine on early DX11 cards; there was no need as there were no DX11 games. Nvidia architecture allows for better tessellation, and they are promoting this through paying for game designers to use it.

Now if AMD want to respond with a powerful tessellation unit, that is good in my books (which they are doing if you haven't noticed). This means the PC buyer is getting graphically better games than they would of.

This is what fair competition is all about. Physx is not about fair competition as AMD don't have free access to this. Tessellation however is free and a big improvement for all PC gamers.

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Good point. I do agree. BUT, as you can see, ATI (legacy woo!) is improving with Barts, and hopefully Cayman too. That is why the repeated mantra of many people was that first gen DX11 hardware is just DX10 with lip service to functionality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

Matyrdom

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(Guys, he thinks he's a matyr but in reality he's the village idiot)

Also, good job responding to my last post, which, aside from a few snide remarks, attacked only your arguments.

Quote:

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... save for my lucid points, which NONE of you really have responded to.

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Amazing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cegras

Good point. I do agree. BUT, as you can see, ATI (legacy woo!) is improving with Barts, and hopefully Cayman too. That is why the repeated mantra of many people was that first gen DX11 hardware is just DX10 with lip service to functionality.

.

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Hasn't this always been the case with any new generation of card. How many people are loving the DX10 capabilities of the 8800 series :)

The biggest problem with PC gaming is the consoles. I'm all for PC manufacturers giving, us the PC gamer, more than a console version. As long as their competitors can do this too, then I'm all for it (competition is a wonderful thing :) )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

I see, another nvidia hater. Well, you've got plenty of company.

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It appears to me that you see what you want to see regardless of any kind of reality.

Hate is a very negative emotion and life is far too short. However, I do dislike any corporate entity that buys favour. Nvidia have and do make great hardware which in the past I have been proud to own. As a corporate entity like so many others, their business practices leave a lot to be desired.

I won't comment further, I learned not to piss into the wind a long time ago.

I'll just sit back now with my popcorn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motiv

Hasn't this always been the case with any new generation of card. How many people are loving the DX10 capabilities of the 8800 series :)

The biggest problem with PC gaming is the consoles. I'm all for PC manufacturers giving, us the PC gamer, more than a console version. As long as their competitors can do this too, then I'm all for it (competition is a wonderful thing :) )

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True. Anyways, I only joined in to defend Manicdan.

Stupid discussions ... :shakes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cegras

It's good ... for people who buy nvidia. Hum.

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Yep, I think that's the point. If you have a competitive advantage you push that advantage. Have you guys never taken an introductory business or economics class?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Yep, I think that's the point. If you have a competitive advantage you push that advantage. Have you guys never taken an introductory business or economics class?

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Everything should be the same. Companies shouldn't be able to get advantages over one another or charge different prices.

Oh right, I forgot the first rule of business strategy is to not seek any advantages over your competition cause then the people who don't buy your products will think it's unfair. Silly me! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElSel10

Everything should be the same. Companies shouldn't be able to get advantages over one another or charge different prices.

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Yes they should it's called competition. I under cut the prices charged by my competitors to get business. I can do this because I am not greedy and have low overheads.

I don't bribe the manufacturers of the tools I use to produce a tool that better suits the way I work to the detriment of my competitors. I would consider that unfair business practice, I reckon my competitors would too.

its like being ok with intel paying system builders to sell only intel on their mainstream and high end systems leaving amd only in budget boxes. paying suppliers of a product to selectively isolate your product to work better or excluse of others is plain cheating.

now if its just about getting their logo in the game thats another story advertising is advertising.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by s1nykuL

I don't bribe the manufacturers of the tools I use to produce a tool that better suits the way I work to the detriment of my competitors. I would consider that unfair business practice, I reckon my competitors would too.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dimitriman

paying suppliers of a product to selectively isolate your product to work better or excluse of others is plain cheating.

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I don't know if these poor analogies are just an attempt to demonize nVidia or if you guys really misunderstand the situation. If Crytek employs a level of tessellation that can take advantage of nVidia's hardware it's not to the "detriment" of AMD. That's like saying a piece of software that can submit useful work for four threads is to the detriment of a dual core CPU just because a quad core CPU would be faster.

Can someone explain why limiting tessellation workloads to whatever AMD cards can handle is a good idea? Note I'm not talking about overuse with no benefit here. I don't understand this notion that any tessellation workload that takes advantage of Fermi's geometry engine is somehow unfair to AMD and their customers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motiv

it is good. AMD are not excluded from tessellation, and tessellation is certainly a good improvement for PC gaming.

AMD did little with the tessellation engine on early DX11 cards; there was no need as there were no DX11 games. Nvidia architecture allows for better tessellation, and they are promoting this through paying for game designers to use it.

Now if AMD want to respond with a powerful tessellation unit, that is good in my books (which they are doing if you haven't noticed). This means the PC buyer is getting graphically better games than they would of.

This is what fair competition is all about. Physx is not about fair competition as AMD don't have free access to this. Tessellation however is free and a big improvement for all PC gamers.

---

First Tesselation need to be used for bring a better graphics environnement. not for cripple the fps and look ugly .. there's a good balance to keep between tesselation and other graphics cost part..... most you increase the Tesselation, most you will need to decrease the quality of other graphics parts for maintain acceptable FPS( shadow, lights, AA, or the details of the object ).. you can't take a game who normally run @ 60fps and magically use Tesselation and have the same fps .... ... it will run @ 30fps, if you think 30fps is not acceptable, or you decrease the tesselation level from 4 to 2 or you decrease the quality of other parts ...

Second you are wrong if you think Nvidia think to the gamers, they think only to the buyers ... And they absolutely don't care how the game look, or is good, or even of boost the pc games industry ... all they want is review who can make them sell more cards.

in 1 year, you will get more games released, and developper will treat Tesselation like other features, if it bring something we use it, if it bring nothing to the quality, we don't use it. If you want to get more realism on wall, you make it for looking more realist, you don't put stones or brick with extreme dimension just for show tesselation is used.. ( look Unigine Extreme tesselation, you think the stones look realist ? )...

I don't think Crytek who have allways been on the first to use the new "technology" who was released ( DX10. DX10.1 ) need Nvidia for anything .. Specially cause they sell the CryEngine's and they want to be on top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

I don't know if these poor analogies are just an attempt to demonize nVidia or if you guys really misunderstand the situation. If Crytek employs a level of tessellation that can take advantage of nVidia's hardware it's not to the "detriment" of AMD. That's like saying a piece of software that can submit useful work for four threads is to the detriment of a dual core CPU just because a quad core CPU would be faster.

Can someone explain why limiting tessellation workloads to whatever AMD cards can handle is a good idea? Note I'm not talking about overuse with no benefit here. I don't understand this notion that any tessellation workload that takes advantage of Fermi's geometry engine is somehow unfair to AMD and their customers.

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-
and you know for a fact this is what will happen? they will simply but a slider that will go up to extreme tesselation and call it a day? or will they actually code their software tailor made to nvidia hardware and cuda leaving amd owners with their cards poorly optimized?
Believe me nvidia has an upper hand now with tesselation but if cayman really brings 3x the tesselation power of cypress as many sources point out, it wont be such a black and white win as people claim.

as for demonizing nvidia - get real. just because you like that company doesnt automatically give jhh a halo and make him a saint. this is a business practice discussion and just as you would happily go flame amd for optimizing af, nvidia will earn its criticism if it pays for fermi only optimizations in crysis.

having very high tesselation would be a good thing for all regardless if amd can keep up or not. having fermi optimized tesselation would be an attempt at making tesselation in crysis 2 proprietary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dimitriman

having very high tesselation would be a good thing for all regardless if amd can keep up or not.

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Thank you, glad you see that as well.

Quote:

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having fermi optimized tesselation would be an attempt at making tesselation in crysis 2 proprietary.

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There's no such thing as "Fermi optimized tessellation". It's a standard DX11 feature with standard APIs. As for the rest of your post well it seems to be filled with things you think/hope/expect evil nVidia to do. I'll wait till we actually see what Crytek is working on before getting into all of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Thank you, glad you see that as well.



There's no such thing as "Fermi optimized tessellation". It's a standard DX11 feature with standard APIs. As for the rest of your post well it seems to be filled with things you think/hope/expect evil nVidia to do. I'll wait till we actually see what Crytek is working on before getting into all of that.

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sure wait and see is fine. again though its not calling evils - but you cant deny that game makers can purposively make their game run better on 1 card than another. it has happened before and i find it cheating no matter if its amd or nvidia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Thank you, glad you see that as well.



There's no such thing as "Fermi optimized tessellation". It's a standard DX11 feature with standard APIs. As for the rest of your post well it seems to be filled with things you think/hope/expect evil nVidia to do. I'll wait till we actually see what Crytek is working on before getting into all of that.

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Apparently nvidia sees fit to include and take away features from DX libraries at will. Hint: Ubisoft.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dimitriman

sure wait and see is fine. again though its not calling evils - but you cant deny that game makers can purposively make their game run better on 1 card than another. it has happened before and i find it cheating no matter if its amd or nvidia.

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Yes, it's possible to do so on purpose. It's also highly possible for it to happen depending on what algorithms or rendering techniques a developer chooses. AMDs and nVidia's architectures are quite different if you haven't noticed.

We just have to wait and see how this turns out. But it's understandable that people are skeptical of Nvidia's motives etc. considering what has happened in the past. Personally I think it gives a black eye to PC gaming and turns people off, and might just drive them to throw their hands in the air and buy a PS3 or Xbox. I know I've felt that way to an extent.

I should be able to just buy a game and play it without worrying about back room shenanigans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carbon_Unit

We just have to wait and see how this turns out. But it's understandable that people are skeptical of Nvidia's motives etc. considering what has happened in the past. Personally I think it gives a black eye to PC gaming and turns people off, and might just drive them to throw their hands in the air and buy a PS3 or Xbox. I know I've felt that way to an extent.

I should be able to just buy a game and play it without worrying about back room shenanigans.

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Exactly, I'm not sure what these "tesselation optimizations" are but if intentionally or unintentionally cripple performance on AMD cards it HURTS pc gaming. This is why ppl buy consoles, they're simple and they just work. Phsyx etc just make pc gaming more complicated and more niche in the process, which means it doesn't pay off to start new PC only IPs, which means we get crappy ports and the cycle just feeds on itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Yes, it's possible to do so on purpose. It's also highly possible for it to happen depending on what algorithms or rendering techniques a developer chooses. AMDs and nVidia's architectures are quite different if you haven't noticed.

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Exactly, Could it be that $2m will influence Cryteks choice of algorithm?

If Nvidia get Crysis 2 in 580 boxes and a splash screen logo for their 2 mil no problem. All well and good to Nvidia, fair play. But if this 2 mil does influence how the game is coded then that's a different story altogether. Call me s1nykul but I don't think Nvidia will give $2m to Crytek to make code changes that will benefit ATI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

Let's face it, NVidia and the developer already have this figured. They know there are a certain number of raving red fanboys that under no circumstances would be caught dead saying a kind word about NVidia, and would also, given any public opportunity, avoid any TWIMTBP game, or at least screech publicly they would never buy it.

So NVidia and developer figure the non fanboys just shrug their shoulders and buy it anyway, even if they have an ATI card. Maybe the developer doesn't want raging fanboys buying their game, because those types complain and moan a lot about the game with conspiracy theories concerning their cards competitor. They probably don't want the nasty emails and grief. So, if fanboys don't buy it, they are happy.

Next, NVidia figures those looking for a videocard likely want to play Crysis 2, so it's likely that future purchasers that see your attitude decide they will buy an NVidia card so they can play CRYSIS 2 at maximum speed. More sales for NVidia that way. So complaining is good for NVidia.

Not only that, everyone who has an NVidia card already wants to buy it now that it's NVidia friendly. The installed Crysis 2 playable NVidia card base is what, 5 times larger than ATI's ? Something like that. So they WIN, period.

Your only hope is that everyone else that already hates NVidia as much as you do doesn't buy Crysis 2, which is probably not going to happen anyway, as the link angry monkey avatar guy showed - it was all NVidia TWIMTBP on the 1st Crysis, and it apparently sold like crazy for a long, long time.

Finally, they figure, like any sane human being or corporate person (I bet that drives you mad that NVidia is a corporate person) would figure, if they had an ATI card and it ran Crysis 2, they'd buy it anyway because there are a thousand other TWIMTBP games with massive NVidia dollars and programmers work pumped into them, and their ATI cards run those games anyway. In other words, they're banking on sanity in the general populace.

So, although it sounds all protesty, and all hopefully that you can help stab a big knife in NVidia's back because "they screwed you" (according to you), it's much more likely that ATI will make sure the puniest of ATI cards can make a stab at running Crysis 2, although all of them only on the reduced tessellation textures they are limited by, anyway.

--

Perhaps the only valid ATI card owner whine is: " Dangit ! NVidia did it again, they delayed another game I was drooling to play, Crysis 2, and all they're doing is pumping up the tessellation and my ATI can't do that worth a crap anyway ! - So I'm waiting for no good reason ! "

Yeah, now that maybe is a valid complaint. That complaint I wouldn't complain about.:up:

Ok, I'm done cross examining.

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Whoa holy :banana::banana::banana::banana: batman. :rofl:

Well i still stick to my desicion of not buying a game thats being optimized for other hardware than i bought. Thats why i think its sucky of the developer to do stuff like this. I dont want to buy different hardware because the developers of games optimizes for 1 piece of hardware, and not the other.
The developer should make games for the PC. Be it with nvidia or ATI, amd or intel.

This could possibly give the consoles another +, which i dont like at all. But at least you know that a game made for PS3 will run great. Not the case with crysis 2 it seems. At least for me as a mad rageing, anti-corporate, ATI fanboy lol :p

Lets hope they bundle the game with all 580. If the game is not ready yet, they should put a activation-code in the box. It will be a good deal for everybody.

To be honest I don't think nvidia can really do much much to effect AMD cards. Crytek will use their own Physics engine and they won't over tessellate to the point where the triangles are too small to be worth rendering, and as far as I know, there are no shader optimisations that will favour nvidia over AMD.

Now if Crysis were a Ubisoft game right now I'd be very worried, as that company has no morals at all. But Crytek, Id and Epic actually have pride in their products and won't go out of their way to hamper performance for their customers.

Worst case scenario: They optimise so that the 580 runs faster than if they had used the Cayman as their focus card. This means benchmarks on this game should be taken with a pinch of salt if you're directly comparing GF110 to anything else. Crytek will insure the game runs/looks well on the 460GTX/HD5770 as they don't want to deal with the crap they dealt with over Crysis.

Best case scenario: It's just another screen to click pass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by s1nykuL

Exactly, Could it be that $2m will influence Cryteks choice of algorithm?

If Nvidia get Crysis 2 in 580 boxes and a splash screen logo for their 2 mil no problem. All well and good to Nvidia, fair play. But if this 2 mil does influence how the game is coded then that's a different story altogether. Call me s1nykul but I don't think Nvidia will give $2m to Crytek to make code changes that will benefit ATI.

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+1 I agree.

I posted about NV & Batman Physx a while back.

Basically, when NV gives money they are going to get a "benefit" that the other company doesn't get. If it's just a Logo then sure, no problem, just advertizing. But when they're paying for actual coding then you're talking about major changes. When they're paying millions then you better be damn sure they're expecting more than an ad.

When they paid for Batman:AA to add in Physx fog, papers, etc. The makers didn't replace those features with "static" similar looking stuff, THEY LEFT THE FEATURES OUT ALL TOGETHER!

Just so you can better see how Physx fog is better than no fog at all. Well, no sh%t. You know what? During game play 99% of people wouldn't notice any damn difference between Physx fog and "static" fog. But, oh no, we can't have anything close to our Physx fog so why don't you just leave the fog out entirely..It'll make our cards look even better.

That type of BS I can't stand. You're telling me that AMD should have paid money so the game developers could put in "static" fog instead of nothing at all? What a crock. If a game developer really wanted what's best for ALL cards then they will not play the favoritism game. And just accept money for simply an ad or something.

It's like a whore politician..both sides can pay all the money they want but ultimately it's who pays the most who gets the final vote their way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Your_Boss

+1 I agree.

I posted about NV & Batman Physx a while back.

Basically, when NV gives money they are going to get a "benefit" that the other company doesn't get. If it's just a Logo then sure, no problem, just advertizing. But when they're paying for actual coding then you're talking about major changes. When they're paying millions then you better be damn sure they're expecting more than an ad.

When they paid for Batman:AA to add in Physx fog, papers, etc. The makers didn't replace those features with "static" similar looking stuff, THEY LEFT THE FEATURES OUT ALL TOGETHER!

Just so you can better see how Physx fog is better than no fog at all. Well, no sh%t. You know what? During game play 99% of people wouldn't notice any damn difference between Physx fog and "static" fog. But, oh no, we can't have anything close to our Physx fog so why don't you just leave the fog out entirely..It'll make our cards look even better.

That type of BS I can't stand. You're telling me that AMD should have paid money so the game developers could put in "static" fog instead of nothing at all? What a crock. If a game developer really wanted what's best for ALL cards then they will not play the favoritism game. And just accept money for simply an ad or something.

It's like a whore politician..both sides can pay all the money they want but ultimately it's who pays the most who gets the final vote their way.

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+1 agree here.

I have no problems with ADDING vendor specific optimizations but to remove whole features to cripple a product, not only to the competitors, but to consumers as well is just wrong.

You know that company will never get my money.

Having read this thread I just want to add that the person with the most common sense is the person who left this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by s1nykuL

Exactly, Could it be that $2m will influence Cryteks choice of algorithm?

If Nvidia get Crysis 2 in 580 boxes and a splash screen logo for their 2 mil no problem. All well and good to Nvidia, fair play. But if this 2 mil does influence how the game is coded then that's a different story altogether. Call me s1nykul but I don't think Nvidia will give $2m to Crytek to make code changes that will benefit ATI.

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of course they are not pay $2mil to benefit their main competition. How stupid would they have to be? As long as thy don't actively degrade the performance on Ati, its fine. And the benefits on nvidia cards will be things that would have never otherwise existed. Its quite amusing to see people complain about this. Nvidia is one of the last players left in the PC industry that attempts to break the console imposed glass ceiling

Of course ATI cards will suffer. Nvidia wants to own the crysis 2 benches, that will give them more sales on gfx cards. Well im guessing, they are guessing thats what will happen. Seeing as how crysis is "that game considered to require most gfx card performance", they are probably hoping people will then see crysis 2 as being the new standard for how well a gfx card will perform.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Your_Boss

When they paid for Batman:AA to add in Physx fog, papers, etc. The makers didn't replace those features with "static" similar looking stuff, THEY LEFT THE FEATURES OUT ALL TOGETHER!

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Duh, thats because those features were never intended to be in the original game :rolleyes:

They were added after release as a downloadable patch specifically for Nvidia users..

The console versions represent the original intended experience, so do you see those features in the game? Of course not..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carfax

Duh, thats because those features were never intended to be in the original game :rolleyes:

They were added after release as a downloadable patch specifically for Nvidia users..

The console versions represent the original intended experience, so do you see those features in the game? Of course not..

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what about the adding of extra paper so u could not use med physX on the cpu or that the multi core support was removed or not enabled from having a flag set wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zanzabar

what about the adding of extra paper so u could not use med physX on the cpu or that the multi core support was removed or not enabled from having a flag set wrong.

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Thats the game developer. PhysX can be multithreaded, as Mafia 2 and Metro 2033 illustrate.

You guys act as though Nvidia is always to blame, but it's the game developer ultimately calls the shots on how PhysX is implemented.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carfax

Thats the game developer. PhysX can be multithreaded, as Mafia 2 and Metro 2033 illustrate.

You guys act as though Nvidia is always to blame, but it's the game developer ultimately calls the shots on how PhysX is implemented.

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Obviously, as they're only doing whatever the money they got was for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carfax

Thats the game developer. PhysX can be multithreaded, as Mafia 2 and Metro 2033 illustrate.

You guys act as though Nvidia is always to blame, but it's the game developer ultimately calls the shots on how PhysX is implemented.

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im not going to start this again so this is the last time im bringing it up (at least here), the demo had about half the paper and it makes no sense to put a cpu intensive effect like that at the lowest lvl, the cape, fog, tiles breaking, sparks, drapes/pennants, air shock waves on hard impact and bat c4 explosions all work perfect with 1 core on the cpu but that paper adds nothing to the game but its on the lowest lvl. the paper was increased about 3x the amount from the demo in the retail making it nearly unplayable without a gpu, and multi core u need to change a flag, there is no way that the devs would leave and never patch a flag that needed to be changed if it was a mistake in not setting it and not intentional. but what would make the game better to have pshyX not use more than 1 core.

and mafia 2 had no multi core phsyX it used 3 cores and 2hard and one light with phsyX disabled, but it also had non useful effects but u could delete them and it made the game playable with a cpu only and phsyX

wow. i knew kitguru posted garbage as news because the entire article is speculation but i did not know that they are stupid enough to think that A. CE3 would be redesigned right before crysis 2 launches. B. 2 million would cover the costs and time of redesigning the engine and game C. money from a MARKETING team would end up as a totally different expenditure (developer relations).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

There's no such thing as "Fermi optimized tessellation". It's a standard DX11 feature with standard APIs. As for the rest of your post well it seems to be filled with things you think/hope/expect evil nVidia to do. I'll wait till we actually see what Crytek is working on before getting into all of that.

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Actually there is, kind of.

Look up a Radeon 6xxx series review on the changes to the possible tesselation methods.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dimitriman

sure wait and see is fine. again though its not calling evils - but you cant deny that game makers can purposively make their game run better on 1 card than another. it has happened before and i find it cheating no matter if its amd or nvidia.

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Ok, first of all you don't have a single example - EVER - and that's why you just say that it has happened, and don't name any instance... AT ALL.

You in reality concerning your comment> :confused:

Next, let's take your constant nvidia bashing, much like nearly the entire first 3 pages of this thread, all bashing away at nvidia, and ignore it- and extrapolate what your notion would mean ITRW, vs what you people claim we ACTUALLY HAVE.

NVidia has a huge TWIMTBP deal going for YEARS - YET .... we have for a couple years now according to all of you and nearly every poster in this entire thread- a smaller more efficient - better performing, with better architecture GPU made by AMD ATI - that frame for frame and dollar for dollar whips the crap out of NVidia, and spewed all the time as if it never gets old when it's blabbered as much as possible...

So... if in fact NVidia was hacking away and raping ATI's ability in the games it TWIMTBP's with all those popular games in all those benchmarks...
would it really be possible for your precious saintly low power, smaller die, better fps, less of a price, super duper kfa ATI card to do so well ?

Your mind right now> :confused::mad::confused::confused::mad::mad::mad: :mad:

Now, threaten me again. ( no problem a mod has now )

Let's sum it up :

If your theory about Nvidia crippling ati performance were true, then "MY IDEAS" about how much faster NVidia is than ATI at every level and at every price point would not even be sufficient - and your claims that ATI wins wins wins wins - just COULD NOT BE HAPPENING - BECAUSE OF COURSE NVIDIA WOULD HAVE HACKED THEM TO HADES IN THEIR PROGRAMS WITH GAME MAKERS!!!!

So, just how wrong do you think, I think, you all are?:rofl:

Take yer pick - NVidia wins becasue they've hacked the crap out of games so ati can't perform..

OR

ati actually does as well and better on less silicon ...

Well ? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Olivon

Stupid discussions ... :shakes:

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Seems to me the first three pages of this thread are as stupid as it gets.

I actually considered taking the 100 plus posts and listing every single one that was a pro ati anti nvidia bash, and nothing else.

Reviewing those pages reveals that number is easily above 90% - a bunch of juvenile screeds that bash NVidia ( oh and YES, you are there TWICE on pg1, you link your fave kitguru article you say, the 470 is dead article)- then as we see after I arrive, further on get into some attempted depth on the conspiracy theories.

You know, it would be a very good exercise if I did what I outlined above, it would put the twisted record STRAIGHT.

Take a look for yourself. 3 full pages - before I got here, and it's 90% plus stupid nvidi bashing - yet when I get here... and the rampant bashing gets challenged... why then of course it's just WRONG. :rofl:
(or rather, "I'm" the problem, and the "fanboy". the "troll". Yeah, the "troll"...). :ROTF:

Ok, time to see post #'s precede analysis:

1. Article, we'll call it neutral even though it does stab at nvidia
2. attack nvidia physx and TWIMTBP
3. attack nvidia gtx590 gtx580 and PR campaign
4. attack nvidia as competition "co-ck block"ers
5. attack nvidia as dirty marketing
6. attack nvidia as non existent card and paper launch
7. doubt rework by Crytek * WOW not raging hate nvidia bias*
8. attack nvidia as rumor claim antilles will wipe floor w nvidia
9. attack nvidia and EA, implying cheating IS in the works
10. attack nvidia and claim they can't win without money throwing
11. attack nvidia postulating about it's fail, and consumers not liking
12. attack nvidia - doing since doom3
13. puts down KitGuru * failure to make direct attack on nvidia* indirect attack
14. Praises crysis *
15. praises half life 2*
16. agrees*
17. wants to be a powerranger*
18. attack nvidia links article
19. attack nvidia x-mas marketing
20. attack nvidia point out crysis 1 in agreement
21. attack nvidia speculate cayman wins
22. attack kitguru
23. attack article premise *
24. praise crysis *
25. attack nvidia with end of 470 article link
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So in 25 posts, the first 25 posts, there is NOT A SINGLE COMMENT that is favorable to NVIDIA - NOT A SINGLE ONE.
It's more than obvious, the thread "pop culture" leans a certain direction.

It's more than obvious I didn't need to go hunting at all, as mandican accused me of, nor did I "respond to every anti nvidia comment in the thread", as mandican accused me of...
NO, mandican was the first anti nvidia comment, it was post #2 in fact, the very first comment, after the article of course.
So, to be fair, one may use the first attack.... I was fair.
Now, shall I add to the list above ? Do I really need to ?

I guess we could say "one viewpoint is allowed", and one only, otherwise, "you're a troll".
:clap::ROTF:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

So in 25 posts, the first 25 posts, there is NOT A SINGLE COMMENT that is favorable to NVIDIA - NOT A SINGLE ONE.
It's more than obvious, the thread "pop culture" leans a certain direction.

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Why there should even be, when there is nothing positive in nVidia buying its proprietary technologies to be implemented in games. If they would use non proprietary that enables "stuff" through common interfaces that any can use if they want to, it would be positive.

IF you want to game get an Nvidia card. Personally i don't see any value at all in DAMIT. Some cards are fast but glitch so bad its not even funny. For benching they are OK but for gaming i like something more versatile with better driver support. See i respect and approve when a manufacturer supports gamers .IF AMD did 5% for gaming community what Nvidia does it would be great.

For people that like games you ati lovers behave kind of strange. Wow a game developer get a cool 2 mil not just any game dev but Crytek who really cares about PC community and all you redidiots just complain. To naive or to stupid to see the benefits. Oh and damn stupid conspiracy theorist too.:down:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mechanical Man

Why there should even be, when there is nothing positive in nVidia buying its proprietary technologies to be implemented in games. If they would use non proprietary that enables "stuff" through common interfaces that any can use if they want to, it would be positive.

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You don't know that they don't. Do you really think they don't help enable "stuff" ? Did you "think", first ?

How can ATI possibly "perform" or have "the same image quality" - hence same objects in game, same abilities, if NVidia isn't helping "enable stuff" ?

If you've seen the new 580 series video release - NVIDIA has a new TECHNOLOGY coming for tesselation - which is "added tesselation layering" that can be turned on, or off, activated with an in game "slow change tesselation growing" algorithm - the video of the alien now circulating shows some cool stuff.

So I GUESS, if there's something in Crysis 2 that uses that, perhaps ATI's cards cannot do it - maybe that NEW TECH w ADDED TESS is part of the 2M and delay... :clap:

Oh, and I SURE HOPE IT IS, and I sure hope ATI cards can't do it, because then we can hear the screaming all over again that NVIDIA give away it's new technology so ati cheapo card purchases can have it ganked for free ! :rofl:

If you bothered to communicate in a non-confrontational attitude you'd go farther, Silicondoc.

As to engine performance being tuned for hardware, there's no need to show examples as it has been done and there is plenty of evidence if you've been around. Sometimes this tuning is good, sometimes it is bad. Sometimes the performance tweaks can be done on the driver end as well without negative impacts to quality.

I suggest if you want this thread to end that you tone down your argumentative attitude, otherwise its just bait for the fish.

edit

I think I might start handing out infractions for people labeling others as nVidiots/redidiots/etc.. dont care if they're right or not, but i'm getting quite sick of the junk being vomited onto these forums. You might want to remove your post before I decide to act on that, railer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by STEvil

If you bothered to communicate in a non-confrontational attitude you'd go farther, Silicondoc.

As to engine performance being tuned for hardware, there's no need to show examples as it has been done and there is plenty of evidence if you've been around. Sometimes this tuning is good, sometimes it is bad. Sometimes the performance tweaks can be done on the driver end as well without negative impacts to quality.

I suggest if you want this thread to end that you tone down your argumentative attitude, otherwise its just bait for the fish.

edit

I think I might start handing out infractions for people labeling others as nVidiots/redidiots/etc.. dont care if they're right or not, but i'm getting quite sick of the junk being vomited onto these forums. You might want to remove your post before I decide to act on that, railer.

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Hey, of course engines are tuned for optimized output, fps, etc.
But, the FACT REMAINS - ati does "just as well" on the same games, the ones nvidia is accused of hacking away to cripple ati.

So, there is NO EVIDENCE for the accusation. That's the point.

Obviously, Nvidia in it's TWIMTBP program is VERY CAREFUL to not hurt ati and it's cards and it's driver base for the game....

See, that's THE TRUTH.

( ps - So now, I'm new here, and you've been sick for some time of the junk being vomited onto the forums, and since I'm new, I'm the one you go after ? Since I'm not the usual, I can actually defend against all the (1st page, 25/ near all attacks) - I get to be the target ?
Frankly, as I thought. I have my points, I make them, solid as can be - so tell you what - I'll moderate, and when THEY ATTACK ME anyway, I'll be glad to see justice done. One would think since I'm outnumbered 10 to 1, I'd be getting the break.

On the other hand, as my analysis shows, only bashing away at nvidia is acceptable. Do you think if the same type of attacks were issued against ATI, there would be kind silence and friendliness ?
Not only that, you call me ....EDITED Ok, wait, I see you were referring to railer the poster. )

Here is the original quote to the issue.

Quote:

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sure wait and see is fine. again though its not calling evils - but you cant deny that game makers can purposively make their game run better on 1 card than another. it has happened before and i find it cheating no matter if its amd or nvidia.

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There are no statements about which games in particular he is talking about. If you bother to read it correctly you will see that he is calling out game makers and not technically nVidia, though there are instances in which nVidia (and ATi) have influenced performance based on engine design.

There is plenty of evidence and your denial of such only makes your arguments look like fanboy material to the average user of these forums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by STEvil

Here is the original quote to the issue.



There are no statements about which games in particular he is talking about. If you bother to read it correctly you will see that he is calling out game makers and not technically nVidia, though there are instances in which nVidia (and ATi) have influenced performance based on engine design.

There is plenty of evidence and your denial of such only makes your arguments look like fanboy material to the average user of these forums.

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Look, that's not the problem, and if that is the problem these people cite (you pretend it is) then it's laughable and foolish.
The claim is when Nvidia does the TWIMTBP program, they not only make their cards runs faster, they cripple ATI's cards.
Of course, as I pointed out, there is no such evidence AT ALL.
Of course working with a game maker means trying to make certain your cards run fast without crashing.
If that's what you and these people are objecting to, I find that any discussion with you will be ridiculous.

Of course that's not the objection. The accusation is SABOTAGE. I will pull the posters post if need be. I guess it's need be. One moment.

Dimitriman post #4
" lol if this works its an easy formula. amd aught to start dumping a few mils here and there to get developers to co-ck block the competition's hardware as well. "

Dimitriman post #163
" its like being ok with intel paying system builders to sell only intel on their mainstream and high end systems leaving amd only in budget boxes. paying suppliers of a product to selectively isolate your product to work better or excluse of others is plain cheating.

now if its just about getting their logo in the game thats another story advertising is advertising. "

Quote:

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Originally Posted by STEvil

There is plenty of evidence and your denial of such only makes your arguments look like fanboy material to the average user of these forums.

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That's nice of you, after you claim you want the attacks to stop, you call me a fanboy.
(I'm sure you'll claim you didn't do it directly...wow.)

Futhermore you claim as Dimitri did that there is plenty of evidence, but there isn't any at all.
Across the board, ATI cards run on TWIMTBP games just fine.
In fact, as was pointed out, sometimes the whole thing reverses, as in Dirt2, and ATI game that NVidia wins at.
Since so many games are TWIMTBP, you should have numerous examples to easily cite, but there aren't any at all. ( here I'll help you- Far Cry 2 - just another one that goes this way or that, in this case NVidia's direction)
Like I said, if the conspiracy were true, ATI cards would be across the board dogs in most or all the TWIMTBP games, and of course, those ranting against NVidia in this thread wouldn't be caught dead saying so, and frankly, the hundreds of thousand of benchmarks at our fingertips don't show that, either.

Like I said in a prior post, if the opposing contention is true, then it is also correct that NVidia cards dominate across the board, and have much more stable game characteristics, better fps, more features available, etc. - all from the millions thrown to game makers.
Would those on your side like to fully admit that right now ?:D
Thought so.

Neither myself nor the post I quoted said TWIMTBP was the issue. Your strawman/scapegoat use of TWIMTBP and ATi/AMD users and reverting to all opposite sides of the debate as fanboy arguments debases your argument.

You want evidence?

3Dmark series. Some of them work better on one type of GPU than another. This isnt necessarily due to brand loyalty, it could just be the method in which the engine is programmed.

Quake series. Remember the TMU performance issues on 3Dfx cards? Banshee vs Voodoo 2. See the TMU performance arguments coming around again with GTX480 vs GTX580 (580 supposedly double the number of TMU's)?

Trackmania series. I've got a 4870X2 and a GTX480. The 4870x2 gives nearly 3x performance in the latest version.



Should I list some more? A game engine can be design perfectly for one architecture and be almost worthless on another. AVP2, Metro 2033, even the 58xx series is an example of this by itself due to the tesselation method, or the 2900's due to their lack of AA (which could have been solved with MLAA possibly). Toss in point sprites to the mix that can cause massive issues one one card and not another depending on the engine (Source had this issue iirc).

Engine performance as related to GPU architecture is nothing new. Its been around since the dawn of time (relative to the first "GPU" of course, that being somewhere around the time of the 3Dfx Voodoo 1) and may even be best illustrated by tile renderers (STMicro), or you could look up some OpenCL ray tracing/caster benchmarks.

.. now its 4:30am. I'll have to catch up on this in the morning maybe.