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I should stop what I'm doing and not consider anything other than what I'm told to do...Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
Yeah, I'm not listening!
I willingly and graciously accept the choice of any person to stop following this thread.
Otherwise, I'm going to have way too much fun watching all of the complaints that keep streaming in.
That alone is worth you're sticking around!
Shingoshi
Y dont u accept the fact that u run your mouth and dont do a damn thing!??!???!??????? SPAMER!!!
Build a single stage with your vertex-univers-black-hole-vacuuming ''compressor'' and then we will take u seriously;)
All the best,
q
By all means.Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
It's a tough call but i think that you should limit your build to only using components made on the 18th moon of Saturn. In addition to this, bear in mind that technical literature can make or break a complex project such as this - so only use these components if they come with full documentation.Quote:
And if anyone of you have better ideas of how to manage the requirements of this system with fewer components, let me know. I'd like to see a list of what you'd be willing to settle on to get by with less.
The last part is PPE (personal protective equipment) when you are working. Procedure for the construction of a normal system is to wear goggles and gloves but given the high level of complexity involved in a project such as this, i recommend that you wear a 2 x 2 x 6 foot steel enclosure with locks on both the inside and outside. Make sure the enclosure is bolted firmly to the floor and is situated in an unpopulated area.
Tom
Personally, Tom, that's a good idea, but at Shingoshi's skill level I think he should contact Troy Hurtubise @ Project GrizzlyQuote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
More video history of Troy's work.
Pure enjoyment:DQuote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
I want to be a fly on the wall with Barrie, Dave, Paul, and Yourself in a Pub!!
you are going to need at least $1k of oil seps
the parts collecting won't be done till at least january? common. just build a damn single stage..
even project grizzly started at the bottom then evolveld thru timeQuote:
Originally Posted by Naja002
mitsubishi i think its a good idea to build a small unit and improve on it over time
i have done this i started with a single stage and now build bigger stronger units
even god took his time :rofl:
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/sevncrea.htm
Shingoshi,
I really do enjoy reading your material more for the fact that it jogs some cogs into motion that haven't really rotated in a long time. I like that you are trying to explore other forms of refrigeration in an attempt to build a rather novel idea. However I see this gigantic project failing to even begin construction as you'll be overwhelmed by the sheer price.
A lot of us have said you should start simple. We aren't saying this because we want to distract you, hold you back, or prove that vertex-univers-black-hole-vacuuming devices are useless. I imagine most of us deep down would like to see some new builds but we know that there are basics that you need to cover before you foul up several hundred dollars in parts due to not knowing how to braze or utilize a shielding gas.
Grab one of those Rechis, a decent condenser, a suction line from Ron and maybe one of Teyber's new evaps and build a single-stage to start. 10 days piecing that together will give you a better idea of if you are up to this gigantic project you have proposed. If that works I'd then suggest tackling a simple two stage cascade and see if you can get that to run while holding a load. Get that settled in and then give your vertex-univers-black-hole-vacuuming devices a whirl.
Sure, it's going to be 6-12 months of knuckle bruising as you learn how to braze and tune these things but in those 6 months you'll learn WAY more than you can learn with Google. Google and Youtube can't teach you how to braze, you've got to royally screw up an evaporator first :D
Good luck, I want to see you succeed in 2010 after accomplishing this.
This wasn't serious right? The oil will be freezing in the evaporator, not the compressors. Still not sure if this was serious or another jab :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Naja002
oh my god.. I knew there was a reason why I like people from the UK. In ~50 words you managed to sum up several thousand :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
Or more precisely, laying more boards out to make my case!
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3512/dsc00020f.jpg
I simply don't have the option to build something SIMPLE. It never was my intent to do so, and NEVER will be. As is evident, I already have the boards for this project. They need a home, and I have to build one. It's kind of like all of you telling me to move into a single room house, with FOUR kids!!
These are my FOUR Tyan S2912 motherboards. Each measuring 13"x12". They hold two processors each with 4 DIMM slots/processor. I have laid them out in the manner they will be assembled. Overlapping them as I have done here will allow me access to all processors for mounting my cooling blocks, while still being able to mount them in less than a 1U space in the top of the case. With all of my inexperience, it seems I'm doing just fine with the details of this project.
So if you're too impatient, too short-sighted and too unimaginative to comprehend why this project was undertaken, and that it's NOT going to change, I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU SEEK COUNSELING, ELSEWHERE!!
Shingoshi
Have it your way. This is going to be fun to watch crash and burn :D
Why the hell did thread describing propane purging got locked, deleted or otherwise removed, but this one, potentially fatal - stays? :shrug:
That's what I would like to know...Quote:
Originally Posted by tiborrr
He is a legend in his own mind.Quote:
With all of my inexperience, it seems I'm doing just fine with the details of this project.
To the rest of us you are a chew toy, AKA a source of amusement for us to play with.
The answer to all your quetions is 42!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't wait to read about this project in Dave Barry's column (or some other humourist). Anyone want to guess at the Headlines?
so shingoshi, im trying to be civil so dont just skip over this for that reason lol.
You stated yourself for $ reasons you won't have all the parts till at least january. and most likely it will be further thn that as you didn't mention oil seps.
That leaves you ~ half a year, in which you said you won't build experience because the single stage won't cover your needs.
You are being very closed minded about this and you are underestimating the complexity of even the most simple of these units.
why don't you do as gomeler said them sell the builds for pretty cheap to fund the bigger projects, so that way you know you have the skill needed (er, well should) and the money to start the big project right after you sell the ss/cascade or w/e.
Or, get a big compressor, a very large cascade condenser, a danfoss tes2 and that 60 plate hx you bought and make a really big chiller. pipe it from a different room so size/heat/noise isn't an issue. TBH i bet you will have a very hard time getting that to work. and that would be 1/10000th as hard as what you are describing.
Just take these things to heart don't just say oh hes trying to discourage me or w/e. You have no idea what your getting yourself into and you will inevitably fail.
Cheers
+100Quote:
Originally Posted by teyber
Shingoshi, I just built my first unit, and I can tell you that it's way too easy to overlook 98% of the work that will go into a project.
I also think that you should just get a large compressor, a large condenser, a Plate HX, and a TXV, and just make a chiller. You will almost certainly succeed with a chiller, and I'd honestly bet at 1:20 odds that your other system won't work out as planned.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a new type of cooling system; however, I don't think that you have the experience or knowledge yet to make one.
Make a beast of a chiller with say R134a, and be happy with it. It'll be reliable, semi-compact, almost certain to work, much cheaper, etc.
This thread is too funny :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
I admit I haven't read the rest of this thread yet (EDIT: I have now). But I'm just curious if you've built a phase-change system since you posted this about three years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
For the record, I'm not cryo-tech. I will post pictures at every stage of my build, and they won't be blurry. EDIT: They will be as sharp as my Sony DSC-P32 allows. I will provide proof of everything I have accomplished. And whatever knowledge I don't have now, will be gathered as I proceed through my build. I will have the time to learn everything that I need to know. Especially as I'm now reading through the old posts here and elsewhere.
And since no one here actually knew this, let me be perfectly clear. I am a trained welder, arc welding and brazing included. In fact, I was a metal sculptor, any very meticulous. So your concerns for my lack of ability is completely unjustified. Just so you know...
Shingoshi
EDIT: The process of cooling the heated outlet refrigerant from my two-stage vortex tubes will probably be the greatest load in the system. And that load will be stable during the entire time that the system is running. Providing enough evaporation to condense my coldest refrigerant will be the system's first goal. Cooling my processors will essentially be incidental to the actual running of the system. So for the most part, cooling of my processors will be a by-product of the operational system. Meaning I will concentrate on condensing my lowest temperature refrigerant, and cooling my processors secondarily. This is specifically why I'm concentrating on building the refrigeration system as my highest priority.
EDIT: There is one major concern that I have in running a 24/7 server. And that concern is that the system can still operate, even at a diminished capacity if any one component fails. That's the major benefit of having four parallel compressors in my first-stage. If one of them fails, I have three more to fall back on. If the second-stage goes down, it won't be as much of an issue as the first-stage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
If your pictures reflect your skills from when you was a photographer, then, please, go ahead and get the bear proof suit. :up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
Forget the equipment. Your pix show a total lack of photography skillz. You can't blame that on the equipment. You're gunna need that suit, Shingoshi.
This has turned rather sad. It is a sad reflection on almost all posters. You don't look good by bagging somebody else. They may be way off the mark but most of the comments now are just snide remarks made without even constructive criticism.
Yes it (not being quite sure of what it exatly will be) is grand - but just let the guy have a go at it.
In terms of a simple comment Shingoshi, you will need better grade tubing and reserviors to cope with low temp working liquid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyMF
Bagging the baggers really isn't helpful either. This thread has run it's "helpful" course-helpful, helpful via constructive criticism, helpful via criticism, helpful via humor, admonishment....gee, what's left? :shrug: Now it is simply at a wait-state. And humans, when left to wait, usually seek some form of entertainment for themselves.....:up:
Frankly, I've found the constant attack(s) to be nothing more than I sign of gross immaturity. And as with all children, I simply choose to ignore nonsense like this. That having been said, I really wish to thank you for the recognition of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyMF
Shingoshi
Last night I went to bed thinking about this issue from another point of view. What's required for a turboexpander to work in a situation like this is predominantly it's size. I had initially investigated the use of small turbochargers for motorcycles having a displacement of 500cc. But I quickly realized the amount of flow through them would simply be too great for any system of this size. So then I thought about my old hobby, radio controlled aircraft. It dawned on me that if turbochargers existed for them, they would be properly suited for this project. So now I submit to all of you the following:
1.) RC turbo charger
2.) http://image2-4.rcuniverse.com/e1/fo...10/Su35824.jpg
3.) How to Make Turbochargers for Nitro Powered RC Cars
Now that we've seen what one would look like, those of you who have the means (metal working materials) should now focus on how to produce one, instead of the constant rants about why this is impossible or implausible. Simply put, start being productive contributors to a working solution, instead of only wanting to detract from one.
Shingoshi
Yes it is. If the thread bothers you then just ignore it. If the OP bothers you, put him on your ignore list.Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyMF
If you don't have anything nice to say...
but if one of the compressors were to fail in a link system then you would have big problemsQuote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
compressor burn out would probbly destroy the other comps conncted as the contaimnats in the cycle would cause the problem or block the filter causing a system blockage ..
Now you're an RC pilot....:rolleyes:
Did you bother to read that thread, Shingoshi? The tubocharger does not work for their application--or as it's claimed. The thread is full of:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
Quote:
Post #9--This is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard... You can't put forced induction on our nitro engines. It is impossible. This is because the exhaust port closes after the intake ports. If you look at the sleeve, you will see that the top of the exhaust port is higher than any other intake ports. Therefore when the piston is reaching the top of the stroke, pressure gained, if any at all, by your so called "turbocharger" would be forced out of the exhaust port. Therefore forced induction does not work on our nitro engines, not even the slightest amount.
Also, by having all of this blowby, you are not only waisting tons of fuel, but you are also eliminating the natural forced induction created by a tuned pipe. A tuned pipe creates backpressure. This is when the exhaust gases reach the end of the pipe and reverberate back to the engine. When an engine is running, some of the fresh air and fuel mixture is expelled out of the exhaust port. What the backpressure does however, is push this air and fuel back into the combustion chamber. Since all of the other ports excluding the exhaust are closed, this creates a natural forced induction. Have you ever wondered why our nitro engines run with much more torque and horsepower with tuned pipes instead of open pipes? This is also why tuned pipes can also be considered "low end" or "high end" pipes. This is mostly due to the shape and length of the pipe which causes the backpressure to be most efficient at different RPM ranges.
And since your "turbocharger" doesn't work and merely heats up your engine, I bet you will go much faster by sticking a nice tuned pipe on it and going back to air cooled.
Fools will always have foolish notions...
There's nothing positive in that thread.....:down:Quote:
Post #26--The RBInnovations supercharger does not in fact "supercharge" RC engines. The extra air that is forced in through the carb merely blows out through the exhuast port as killer89 mentioned before. Therefore when the air and fuel is forced out of the exhaust, you are merely leaning the engine by taking away the fuel and replacing it with air. Therefore, instead of paying $180 for a heap of metal, you can just lean out your engine. Also you have to realize the supercharger is draining HP and torque from the engine by giving extra load to the engine to spin the vanes.
Once again, that's your job. You've not given anybody anything here, except words. Prove your own theories...:up: Buy, build or contract your turboexpander. Here's one that should fit your budget: TurboexpanderQuote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
Might also want to take the time to read the comments on your "How to make a turbocharger" link. :p:
Quote:
on 6/20/2007 Where the hell in this article does it tell you how to make a turbocharger for your RC nitro car????????? I am learning disabled and can't read....... or the author needs to let everyone know how to actually MAKE A TURBO, if he/she does not know how to do this, why in gods name are they allowed on a computer as they will surely gum up the keyboard with drool???
How to MAKE Turbochargers:
Quote:
Things You'll Need:
* RC supercharger
* Nitrous injection mechanism
* Charger heads
* Flywheels of the appropriate size
* Zip ties
* RC fuel line
* RC fuel cell
* Threadlocks
More smoke and mirrors....
Let me be more explicit. Stay out of this thread Naja.
In all fairness to Shingoshi , I am going to leave this thread open for now. If the contents bother you, please stay away from the thread. Shingoshi is entitled to express his dream .
No more flaming
I will attempt to give thorough information to justify my ambitions and claims here.Quote:
Originally Posted by runmc
The first thing that needs to be pointed out, is that turbochargers do in fact work. There is no debate about that. The problem that exists with using them on nitro-fueled engines, is that those engines are predominantly two-stroke engines. Two-stroke engines simply cannot provide the exhaust pressure for turbochargers to function properly. YOU NEED A FOUR-STROKE ENGINE'S EXHAUST PRESSURE FOR THE OPERATION OF A TURBOCHARGER! I knew that before examining this subject. The point here is that it IS POSSIBLE to build turboexpanders small enough to meet the needs of a compressor, since the compressor IS providing the pressure required to drive a turbocharger. Additionally, the vortex tube's pressure and heat is what we're counting on here.
I will now go back and provide the edited comments to my last post to explain how this should work.
Shingoshi
We need no explanation on whether your theory will work or not. If you want to post a project get on with it. No more theory or explanations please.
If you don't get on with the project, the thread will be closed.
an old saying goes:
when the horse is out of the stable, its time to get some hay.
Not sure what it means but its possible it applies here.
It will take a while to gather some of the components. Unfortunately, some things cannot be constructed unless other parts are available. If I am in the process of gathering components, but can't always assemble them, am I to be constantly accused of not doing anything? I initially started this thread to simply ask a question. It was only after I started giving some answers as to why I believed this is possible, that I started getting a lot of criticism. In the process, I was trying to point out that some of the criticism was unjustified.Quote:
Originally Posted by runmc
I didn't open this thread looking for or expecting to start arguments. I was simply wanting to know what had anyone done to attempt getting near-cryogenic temperatures for a 24/7 system. Ironically I find myself cornered into a position I might have otherwise not taken.
However, as of this weekend I've decided to focus on building the external heat dump, since this is the most critical component discussed so far. This one feature will be necessary no matter what direction I chose ultimately.
I'm sorry that showing that I've already started accumulating the components for this system isn't enough for some. But as someone here already derisively pointed out, I don't have the budget to acquire a large number of components at a time. You should simply know that I don't spend money on anything that I'm not committed to doing. I don't know what more to say than that.
Shingoshi
How to put compressors in parallel
Parallel compressors single condenser
Parallel Compressors System:
With a (parallel) rack system, the multiple compressors can stage on, off or unloaded
in cost-saving increments to match the ever-changing cooling requirements.
Variable capacity multiple compressor refrigeration system
EnergyEfficiency
Shingoshi
Hey dude.
With regards to your parallel compressor plan, noone has disputed its use for energy efficiency, it can and has been used to great success. What EvoCarlos pointed out was... You said that if one compressor failed then the system could carry on running with reduced efficiency. If you did run your unit in this state, various nasty gack from the burnt out compressor would be pumped through your system, potentially clogging a cap tube or other metering device, which could lead to a dangerous situation pressure wise.
I really and truley hope you build this and that it works well for you as it would open up new avenues for cooling. If it doesnt work, at least you'll have learnt alot in the process.
It's just that in reading on this issue elsewhere on this site, no one mentioned it. True, I may have missed it. After all, I haven't read every post on this entire forum. But let's just hope one of the compressors doesn't go down like you said. Because that would be a very bad situation, unless they could somehow be isolated from contaminating the other units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postal Dude
Should I be more concerned by the fact that I'm using discontinued compressors. The Rechi's are brand new. And so are the Danfoss. However, the Danfoss are warehouse mishaps. Supposedly, they fell off the shelf on which they were resting. So it really comes down to just how durable do compressors tend to be.
And I know that I have likely looked very fickle through all of this. But there are simply too many things to consider and think I have the final answer. With that in mind, I'm thinking of creating two separate coolant loops divided between the Rechi (R-22) and Danfoss (R-404a/507) compressors. The reason is that I'm concerned that there won't be anyway to deal with the dissimilar lubricants required by each group. So I'm thinking of using one group for the external condenser, and the second group for the internal heat management. The only unit these two groups would share in common would be the M60 heat-exchanger I already have. From what I've read, it seems that I can use R-600a in the Rechi without any trouble. But then again, I may have missed something again. If that's not a problem, it comes down to whether the four of them could handle the load being dropped on them from the internal system requirements. I don't know.
It seems that being able to cool the R-404a lower than what it could get from simple air cooling would be a great benefit. Since the system would start out with less load on it. But once again, that's conjecture.
Thanks for pointing that out...
Shingoshi
EDIT: Look closely! This should give you a clue just how DIFFERENT I tend to be.
[IMG=http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9323/doesthisgiveyouaclue.th.png]
Different maybe, but that does not automatically mean you are competent. Just a thought.
yeah man if a hermetic compressor burns out it will destroy ever component in the system. with 4 compressors or w/e you are 4 times as likely to have that happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postal Dude
What about instead of using those rechi's you use those huge 1hp copeland compressors that are used in commercial cascades?
I've seen them for sale on Ebay. And they are powerful indeed. The problem is the voltage. I live in an apartment, and I don't think the management would rewire my unit for a new 230V line.Quote:
Originally Posted by teyber
That's why I've been concentrating my efforts on what I can achieve with 115v instead. For people who live in Europe, 230v isn't a problem. But here in the States, you don't typically see that high voltage unless you're in an industrial zone. I've thought about attempting to run 230v. But that would require that I use the line from my oven to power this system. There are logistical issues with doing that. The least of which would be creating ~30' power cord with a locking lead into the computer case. I had been thinking the refrigerator had 230v. But it seems it runs on standard household current. So I don't know about the viability of the higher current.
But I did think about it...
Shingoshi
EDIT: I'm going to search Google and see if Copeland even makes a 115v compressor. If they do, then maybe I can find one, once I know the part numbers to look for.
EDIT: Ok. Here's a list of the Copeland 115v compressors that I've found. I'll list this in order from the largest to the smallest.
1.) KAAB-007E-CAA-800
2.) KAMB-007E-CAA-800
3.) KAGB-005E-IAA-800
4.) KAMB-007A-CAA-800
5.) KAAB-007A-IAA-800
6.) KAGB-005A-IAA-800
7.) KANB-005A-IAA-800
Clicking on any one of those links, will take you to the page where I got the data. You can see the refrigerants each model uses. If you want, tell me which refrigerant makes the most sense. The largest one of these uses R-404, which is the same as the Danfoss SC18CLX.2. I don't know how much larger that model is than the Danfoss. Because the Danfoss is pretty large itself, having a displacement of almost 18cc.
Copelend RF41C1E-CAA-929, 115V
Where did you find that one? I mean I could look. I'm going to look for it now! But if that's available on Ebay, that would be especially nice!Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
EDIT: I just looked. And Google turns up a blank page with nothing found. Are you sure you have the correct model number? On further examination, the Copeland I listed above as the largest 115v compressor, is simply too heavy for this application. It definitely seems to have a cast-iron frame. That may be expected for industrial applications. But for this one, it's not appropriate.
Shingoshi
Yep. Shipping wieght 45LBSQuote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
What's the weight on the 4 rechis? I've got one of Copelands largest 110v reciprocating compressors sitting at my feet. Model number RS97C1E-CAA 1.5hp 115v-1ph 9590btu/h with a 20f evap and 120f condenser while pulling 1940 watts all in a 54lb package. Compare that to 4 rechis or 2 SC18s and I think the Copeland would be more compact and lighter. The only problem is the startup current.. going to need a 30 amp circuit to keep from tripping the breakers.
I had already determined that I shouldn't proceed with anything until I have the voltage issue worked out. Because even with the multiple units I currently (no pun) intended to use, amperage will still be an issue. So I really have to work on the current (again no pun) issue before I do anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
EDIT: This is definitely funny. In searching Google, I found one of the few links for that compressor to be one of yours. Odd Compressor Spec Question
I'll have to read it now and see what you had to say there.
EDIT: MAN!! How did you get lucky enough to come by that compressor? I see it listed for $2,400. Damn lucky indeed!
Shingoshi
EDIT: I just want to say thanks guys!
The wonders of ebay :) I can't wait to use it someday, I've had it for roughly 18 months just waiting for the perfect project to use this baby. I bet it won't even start when I finally do use it :p:
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/Quote:
The first thing that needs to be pointed out, is that turbochargers do in fact work. There is no debate about that. The problem that exists with using them on nitro-fueled engines, is that those engines are predominantly two-stroke engines. Two-stroke engines simply cannot provide the exhaust pressure for turbochargers to function properly. YOU NEED A FOUR-STROKE ENGINE'S EXHAUST PRESSURE FOR THE OPERATION OF A TURBOCHARGER! I knew that before examining this subject.
Regardless, it doesn’t matter because the whole quoted paragraph was drivel.
This sentence does not make sense. I think I understand what you are trying to say but I doubt that a normal refrigeration compressor will be able to provide enough flow rate and pressure to even spin an automotive turbine, let alone drive an effective cycle where work can be done in the turbine.Quote:
The point here is that it IS POSSIBLE to build turboexpanders small enough to meet the needs of a compressor, since the compressor IS providing the pressure required to drive a turbocharger.
How can anyone tell you which refrigerant makes the most sense when you haven’t listed any requirements. For the benifit of people who want to help you, it might be worthwhile to state these requirements.Quote:
If you want, tell me which refrigerant makes the most sense.
This is because I have spent one hour of my life reading this thread and I have no idea what you are actually trying to do. The sad thing is that I will never get this hour back, it is gone forever… :(
Tom
That's always been my biggest fear about doing business on Ebay. But after reading about the Danfoss compressors on this site, finding them out of stock at the time, I found and purchased the Rechi compressors instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
Now, back to the "current issue" :rofl:, I found this for Danfoss. But again, it's 230v. Crap, I should live someplace else where I can do the things I need to without voltage problems. Do you guys have any ideas of how to get around this perplexity?
Shingoshi
The turboexpanders were only intended as a means to rechill the refrigerants leaving the vortex tubes. That was the only intended purpose for them. I have since moved on to other considerations. So I hope it doesn't distract you any further. Because I'm no longer thinking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
Vortex tubes on the other hand have the ability to drop a refrigerant's temperature without the typical need to expand other higher-temperature refrigerants in order to condense lower temperature refrigerants. That's the point you've missed. I'm sorry. I should have summed it up before so that some could get it. The idea is to have all of your condensed refrigerants in a single mixture (solution), so that when the evaporation process begins it will be continuous along an evaporation path until all refrigerants have evaporated. What is expected is, that the lower temperatures forced into the first-stage vortex tube (by using the evaporation process (path) to cool the upstream refrigerants), the lower the resulting temperatures from the vortex tubes will be. It produces a loop where the refrigerants going into the vortex tubes continue to drop. They would continue to go lower until they reach a point of equilibrium, where they go no lower. The was something that was observed in detailed studies by researchers on this topic, and revealed in numerous patents that have come about.
As far as the heat load goes. The greatest load in the system will be to rechill the refrigerants escaping the vortex tube's hot outlet. Typically, that heat is @230F with a 70F inlet temperature. But here again, if I lower the inlet temperature going into the vortex tube (@0C) to begin with, the hot outlet gas from it will be considerably lowered, as will the cold outlet temperature. My eight processors will produce no more than 600W for 8x75W AMD Shanghai cpus. There will no other major heat sources to contend with. But, at the most, the system will have approximately 1000W capacity for safe operation. But then, for all the comments about cooling the compressors as well, they must be considered also. For the purpose of cooling the case's interior, I'm thinking about using a plate evaporator, like the ones used for marine cooling boxes.
Shingoshi
EDIT: On the other hand, maybe the TURBOEXPANDER issue shouldn't be dead after all. I don't think I need to say anything other than this. And if it's not enough, that's your problem.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3466/059b2dbd2a.jpg
Microturbomachinery Patent
Claude Cycle
Of course, that probably sums it up too much for you!Quote:
The Claude cycle is a widely used cooling process in refrigeration technology. It combines isenthalpic and isentropic expansion. A refrigerator based on the Claude cycle comprises a compressor at ambient temperature, a series of heat exchangers, an expansion turbine and a Joule-Thomson valve. The principle used is to expand a part flow of the process gas in the turbine and therewith cool it down ( isentropic expansion). The turbine part flow is then used to precool the main gas stream by the means of the heat exchangers. The precooled main gas stream is further cooled down by isenthalpic expansion via the Joule-Thomson valve.
EDIT: In this case, the Joule-Thomson valve is replaced by the vortex tube.
Shingoshi
Curious, do you plan on building your own vortex tubes or is there a factory shelf part within the sizing that you would need for your application?
How many BTUs/HR does this equal?Quote:
As far as the heat load goes. The greatest load in the system will be to rechill the refrigerants escaping the vortex tube's hot outlet. Typically, that heat is @230F with a 70F inlet temperature.
This is a needed value.
How were you going to do this?Quote:
But here again, if I lower the inlet temperature going into the vortex tube (@0C) to begin with, the hot outlet gas from it will be considerably lowered, as will the cold outlet temperature.
This will need to be added into the total heat load.Quote:
My eight processors will produce no more than 600W for 8x75W AMD Shanghai cpus
Since the compressors will be enclosed within this case, all the heat load from the compressors will have to be transfered to the outside. To figure out how much wattage that is, take the voltage mutiplied by the RLA and add 10%.Quote:
But then, for all the comments about cooling the compressors as well, they must be considered also.
And especially in the sizes needed for this application. I've made it my point lately to start using Google to get as many answers as I can, without having to ask here first. So try doing a simple check of Google for "vortex tubes", and you will see firsthand just how much of a selection there is for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
Shingoshi
Do you just ignore questions or what?
Do you want help or not?
Apparently soQuote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
Apparently not and I also noticed he has started spamming other threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
1.) That would have to be calculated. I've not seen any stats on the BTUs of heat output, because typically no one tries to rechill the heated gas leaving the vortex tube. Typically, it's just vented to the atmosphere. I need to first determine how low I can push the temperature of the inlet gas, before I can know at what point in the evaporation stream to cool the vortex tube's exhaust. If I do this in the wrong location, the cooling will be inhibited. But these are the numbers I have now for a typical vortex tube application:Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
pressurization inlet: 70F
heat outlet: 230F
cold outlet: -40F
A corresponding drop in inlet temperature will be seen in BOTH the heat and cold outlets. So if I can get the inlet temperature down to 0F using a heat-exchanger, BOTH of the outlet temperatures should drop by about the same amount.
The BTUs would have to be calculated based on the inlet pressure and flow rate in CFM to know what that number will be. I don't have that yet. I won't have the pressure and flow rates until I know for certain which compressors I will be using. The Danfoss compressors I was hoping to get are no longer available, again. I'm now looking for replacements. If I can figure out a way to use 230v, I've already found the compressor I could use.
2.) I'm running the exhaust heat from the vortex tubes through a heat-exchanger to pass that heat to the condenser.
3 & 4.) I plan on using the same kind of evaporators as used to be common in old freezers to cool the inside of the insulated computer case. I would rather build this system with an expected heat load of 2KW to be certain I have enough capacity to handle everything. I intend to use gel-packs from coolers to maintain the temperature, reducing the need for continuous cooling of the interior. Once the gel-packs are frozen, they will stabilize the interior temperatures more than if they weren't used at all. And the more packs used, the more stable the temperature.
Shingoshi
I thought you were intending 24/7 operation. How are gel packs going to help with that?Quote:
I intend to use gel-packs from coolers to maintain the temperature, reducing the need for continuous cooling of the interior. Once the gel-packs are frozen, they will stabilize the interior temperatures more than if they weren't used at all. And the more packs used, the more stable the temperature.
Thats not how BTUs are calculated nor heat load.Quote:
The BTUs would have to be calculated based on the inlet pressure and flow rate in CFM to know what that number will be.
IS that the Marine coil like condensor that you talked about few post back?Quote:
2.) I'm running the exhaust heat from the vortex tubes through a heat-exchanger to pass that heat to the condenser.
Is this going to be a seperate refrigeration system?Quote:
I plan on using the same kind of evaporators as used to be common in old freezers to cool the inside of the insulated computer case.
You are undersized already.Quote:
2 Kilowatt-hour equals to 6828.85189927 Btu
As it turns out from discussing the issue of power with the apartment maintenance worker, all of the heating units here use 240v. I think that will take care of the issue of power usage. I just need to wait for approval to have the outlet installed. Hooray!
Shingoshi
Simple question: Did you bother to look-up "vortex tube" on the internet? Because if you haven't done that, why do I have to keep explaining how they function to you. Frankly, I think you're looking for ways to be obstructive. But I'll try and answer your questions just the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about? They're the same as those used in camping coolers. Once they are frozen, they can keep an volume of space cool for a very long time. Having gel-packs in a freezer lowers the load on the freezer by not having to expend as much energy to maintain a given temperature. Because the gel-packs will resist heating better than the contents of the freezer.
2.) The amount of gas pumped through a vortex tube determines how many BTUs are produced in heat. But you need to know the vortex tube inlet pressure as well. Because the higher the vortex tube inlet pressure the lower BOTH outlet temperatures will be. And since I don't know for certain which compressor I will be using, I don't know how many CFM I will have to work with. Don't ask me any more questions about this until you have searched "vortex tube" yourself personally.
3.) The condenser I gave a picture of is an intercooler for a turbocharger. They are not the same. I thought about using the intercooler as a condenser because of it's volumetric capacity. Depending on how young you are, you probably have never seen the kind of evaporator that I'm talking about. They used to be external inside the freezer. Now, freezers are made with the evaporators inside the wall. They stopped using external evaporators about twenty-five years ago! You will only see them now in specialized environments. I think some combination mini refrigerator/freezers still use them. Like the small units that can sit on a desk or in a closet.
4.) I'm thinking of using the smaller compressors to provide sub-ambient cooling of the refrigerant from the larger compressor. So yes, it would be a separate refrigeration system. Although, I guess an inventive way of using a single refrigerant for both could easily be worked out. But there would still be only one external condenser for the entire system. The larger compressor would be using a heat-exchanger to pass it's heat to the exterior condenser.
5.) So if you think I'm undersized already, what do you think is an appropriate projected maximum load for this system as I have described it? Again, without knowing what my next compressor will be, how am I supposed to know the total load of the system? So what is the largest load you think I would be facing?
Shingoshi
Dear Lord! I think someone just beaten the Zeroth-, First- and Second Thermodynamic Law. Who do you think cools down the gel packs initialy, perhaps magic dust? It might come as a shocker to you, but everything cooled by an evaporator is a HEAT LOAD.Quote:
1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about? They're the same as those used in camping coolers. Once they are frozen, they can keep an volume of space cool for a very long time. Having gel-packs in a freezer lowers the load on the freezer by not having to expend as much energy to maintain a given temperature. Because the gel-packs will resist heating better than the contents of the freezer.
Someone please for the sake of vapor phase change forums lock this thread ASAP. This used to be a serious forums.
P.S.: ultralo1 is the guy with I-Don't-Know-How-Many-Long-Years-Of-Field-Experiences in very low temperature refrigeration.
Back at ya, did you bother to look up basic refrigeration? I guess its like trying to explain simple refrigeration to you.Quote:
Simple question: Did you bother to look-up "vortex tube" on the internet? Because if you haven't done that, why do I have to keep explaining how they function to you
Just how have I done that? All I have done is to point out some problems with your design ideas. If it and you cant stand up to little scrutiny then I suggest that you may want to go some where else to post. You see we have a few people here that are professionals. We help all we can and part of that is scrutinizing the designs.Quote:
Frankly, I think you're looking for ways to be obstructive.
Unfortunatly thats what I was afraid you were talking about. Now if this is a 24/7 system when are you going to change them out? Where are you going to freeze them? These will not make it a self contained system like you have been telling us it will be.Quote:
1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about?
Quote:
2.) The amount of gas pumped through a vortex tube determines how many BTUs are produced in heat. But you need to know the vortex tube inlet pressure as well. Because the higher the vortex tube inlet pressure the lower BOTH outlet temperatures will be.
So you are going to raise the inlet pressure, and this will create a lower temp exhaust.
Basic physics: pressure equals heat period. Raise the pressure, raise the energy in the system.
A little snippy arent we. Are you having trouble standing up to a little scrutiny of your system. I have not asked you a single thing about vortex tubes.Quote:
Don't ask me any more questions about this until you have searched "vortex tube" yourself personally
I think you ment evapQuote:
I thought about using the intercooler as a condenser
Let me see if I understand you:Quote:
4.) I'm thinking of using the smaller compressors to provide sub-ambient cooling of the refrigerant from the larger compressor. So yes, it would be a separate refrigeration system. Although, I guess an inventive way of using a single refrigerant for both could easily be worked out. But there would still be only one external condenser for the entire system. The larger compressor would be using a heat-exchanger to pass it's heat to the exterior condenser.
The 4 rechies, in parallel and external to the case, will be providing the evap of the HX. This will be condensing the hot gas from the internal (to the case) comp. The condensed gas (liquid) will then goto a metering device which will discharge into the vortex tube. The refrigerant will then be split in the vortex tube. Some going to the exhaust side the other moving onto the internal (to the case) evap. This Colder output, from the V tube, is to be considerably colder than just the discharged refrigerant of the metering device.
The exhaust from the vortex tube will be condensed via a heat pipe, turbo expander, Turbocharger (:D) and fall back down through the vortex tube, via gravity, to be sent onto the evap and returned to the compressor via the suction side.
All heat load from inside the case will be reflected out through the external "retchi" cooling system.
Close? If it is then you are basically building a cascade system with the second stage being internal to the case with a V tube between the Metering device and evap.
Quote:
5.) So if you think I'm undersized already, what do you think is an appropriate projected maximum load for this system as I have described it? Again, without knowing what my next compressor will be, how am I supposed to know the total load of the system? So what is the largest load you think I would be facing?
So If I am understanding you correctly:
Then your combined internal heat load of the case will be the
1: Internal comp
2: Condensing heat of the refrigerant for that system
3: MOBOs approx 600W total, Are the power supplies internal to the case also?
4: External heat infiltration
5: Not sure about the condensing system for the exhaust of the V tube. That was going to be external, right?
6: Is this going to be radiant cooling or are you going to have a circulating fan? If a fan you have to account for that in your heat load calculation.
7: What is the target temp for the interior of the case?
8: Whats the target temp for subcooling the liquid refrigerant of the internal comp?
I think thats got it for now.
PS. Thanks Tiborrr
I must really apologize for my twisting your arm into commenting here. I realize I've raised an issue you don't want to investigate. And I'm sorry you have no desire to understand it.
1.) I said the inside of the computer case is insulated. Did you see what I'm using for a computer case. It's a SEALED Pelican 1780 Transport case.
[IMG=http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7770/dsc00010daw.th.jpg]
2.) I'm basically turning that case into an INSULATED mini-freezer.
3.) The EVAPORATOR INSIDE the computer is what will cool the gel-packs.
4.) The gel-packs (once installed) will NEVER leave the inside of the case.
The deeper the temperature the gel-packs are frozen to, the longer it take for them to heat up:
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9...ing20temps.jpg
Consequently the internal temperature will remain more stable over a longer period of time.
EVERYTHING that I've stated in this post, I've stated here before.
Physicists are still at a loss to explain why and how vortex tubes work. So don't quote me your understanding of physics, when those more qualified than you have no idea what's going on inside of one. Again, if you read about that, you would have seen that fact repeated in almost every place that vortex tubes are discussed by physicists. For crying out loud! Wikipedia would have told you this!
I meant exactly what I said about the intercooler. Just because I used the words INTERCOOLER and EVAPORATOR in the same sentence, doesn't mean I was talking about the same thing.
1.) I'm creating a separate cooling loop using the smaller compressors. Those four Rechi compressors will use the intercooler (because of the intercooler's sheer size) as their condenser. The evaporator for the external cooling loop will be the heat-exchanger for BOTH the warm internal refrigerant and the cooler external refrigerant will flow through. That heat-exchanger is replacing the condenser for the internal cooling loop.
I'm using the external condenser (the intercooler) and it's associated refrigeration system to cool the internal heat-exchanger and it's associated refrigeration system. The two separate systems only share the heat-exchanger in common.
2.) No, you don't understand me! If I haven't explained this well enough by now, I don't know what else to say. The four Rechis are inside the computer case. The only thing connected to the four Rechis, is the external condenser (the intercooler). And since I know you would like nothing more than to point out one intercooler is likely not enough, I already intend to use more than one. I just don't know yet if that will be two or four intercoolers connected to create one massive radiating body.
3.) The velocity of the gas that spins inside a vortex tube is relative to the pressure of the inlet gas. The higher the pressure, the higher the speed of rotation. The higher the speed of rotation, the greater the separation of temperature between the hot and cold gas leaving the vortex tube.
But you've made a good point. I've not seen exact numbers on whether the heated gas's temperature is lower or higher than before. It may be that the heated gas is at a higher temperature. In other words, I don't know if the change in temperature is equally divided between the cold and hot gases generated, or if the temperatures of both are lowered. But one thing is known, the cold gas generated by the higher rotational speed is much lower than with the typical pressure of 100psi.
4.) Instead of being sarcastic, if you read some of the documentation on vortex tubes I've posted here, you would have seen that this has already been done using turboexpanders or pulse-tubes. In one study, the vortex tube was connected to a pulse-tube, and the temperature of the heated gas was cooled and sent back into the stream. Turboexpanders do the same thing with temperatures much higher than what a vortex tube produces. In fact, turboexpanders are used to rechill superheated steam to sub-zero temperatures. Again, you probably haven't looked those up either. There's nothing of gravity to do with this, other than you wanting to be sarcastic!
5.) Snippy? Every question you've posted here depends on the function of the vortex tubes and their ability to cool gases.
6.) And let me REPEAT this again. The ONLY thing on the exterior of the computer case, is the CONDENSER.
7.) What I'm doing will resemble this somewhat:
http://www.emersonclimate.com/Divisi...p_image004.jpg
http://www.emersonclimate.com/Divisi...p_image004.jpg
An even better explanation would be this. Take this image above and duplicate it, having one image above the other (I've already done it, so you won't have to imagine it!). So the the condenser at the top of the bottom image and the evaporator of the top image is the heat-exchanger shared between them that I spoke of. That should hopefully make better sense. Because there are in fact two separate refrigerant loops at work here.
The (Rechi) compressor for the top image will be the external condenser refrigerant system.
The bottom image's condenser and the top image's evaporator are BOTH replaced by a SINGLE heat-exchanger between BOTH images.
The (Unknown) compressor for the bottom image will be the internal refrigerant system.
The topmost condenser is the only thing that's outside of the system environment.
I really have to apologize if English isn't your first language! I can understand then how reading English documentation would be a problem for you.
Shingoshi
seems like bob-who-likes-to-work-on-his-car-on-weekends (or rather pretend he does) is trying to win a automobile argument with mr. porsche with personal attacks, woman's argument strategy (never be direct, never answer questions asked but rather bring up other questions), and random information being the only thing going for him
Looks like bob-who-likes-to-work-on-his-car-on-weekends bought a Haynes manual but wrote his car off with a "one spanner" task. Of course this is the fault of Mr Porsche who did not understand the complexity of bobs 5lb lump hammer...
Tom
Don't know if it's funny or sad anymore.
Why do you want to keep the compressors inside the case?
Stop reading docs about vortex tubes... just read this:
http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm
Shingoshi
Vortex tubes have a real low COP as DetroitAC has told you. Primarily the are used on compressed air & exhausted to slightly above 1 atmosphere,usually ~2 to~5psi. I looked at some of the ones you posted, one of the most powerful gave ~2600 BTU's @ 35CFM w/70 degree inlet. You even used the 35 CFM in one of our questions. So lets talk about 35CFM @ 100 psi. First realize there is no phase change happening in these vortex tubes.
I have tubes I use for cool suites and helmets for sandblasting & have installed some for a aerospace manufacturer who could not use traditional cutting fluid on the alloy being milled so their bits where air cooled.
In general @ 100 psi You get ~4 maybe ~5 CFM per HP on a air compressor.So if using air you would need about a ~7.5 hp air compressor. So 746 watts(1hp) x 7.5 hp =~5595watts .just under 6 kw/hour. Where I live I pay .10cents per kilowatt/hr. So .60 cents x 24 hours= 14.40 a day x30 days= $432.00 a month on your electric bill running 24/7.
You can have a much better COP with a traditional vapor/compression cycle.
Maybe you should look at how much you can afford and willing to pay,or how many watts/amps are available ,an let that determine your cooling capacity.
BTW unless both the hot and cold discharge to a much lower pressure they won't work.....also if there is a large imbalance they won't work.
~-150 to ~120c all inside that box..............While CPU work better and faster @ low temperatures,the motherboard capacitors don't like the cold.Also you WILL have oil lubercation issues @ the temps you hope to achieve.
Guys here struggle to get a single CPU to -80 or -90c under load with 2 stage cascades.
As to the old plate evaps in fridges ,that was back in the day before self
defrosting fridges. The iced up and every so often every thing in the freezer had to be removed and the freezer defrosted.
Reading your posts I'm not sure you understand that there is a difference between Temperature (measured in Celsius,Fahrenheit,Kelvin) and Heat (measured in BTU's, watts,kj/kg,calories)
Your load inside your case is going to be all the power supplied to the motherboards/w/cpu's/gpu's /fans/pumps/ ect plus all the wattage supplied to the compressors +heat load of the case itself since the inside will be colder than the outside. Oh and unless you have a very well insulated interior,the outside will sweat or grow frost if cold enough.
Will the inside be filled with air or another gas? does that case have a o ring gasket? While you google & Wiki all these different cycles & devices your over looking some of the most basic principles of refrigeration & Thermodynamics.
All refrigeration does is take heat from one place and move it to another (period). (Energy can not be created nor destroyed)
So every watt (1 watt=3.412 Btu's) of power that goes into the case by way of power cord must be moved back out of the case and rejected + add the heat load of the case.
No problem, I dont mind spoon feeding you the information.Quote:
I must really apologize for my twisting your arm into commenting here
Whats the R value. Typical commercial cascades that reach -80C and below have an R value of 40+. This is needed to lower the heat infiltration and to reduce external condensation.Quote:
I said the inside of the computer case is insulated
This is technique is using thermal mass to stabilize the system.Quote:
Consequently the internal temperature will remain more stable over a longer period of time.
Please see my sig line. This baby is your idea, yet you have not provided us with a detailed summary of the system. You have provided enough links to choke a horse, and no I did not read them. It is not my job to read links so that I can understand just WTF you are talking about. It is Your job to present your idea up for peer review and then defend your position under scrutiny.Quote:
EVERYTHING that I've stated in this post, I've stated here before
Are these from peer reviewed papers or just article on the net? I am betting "just on the net"Quote:
Physicists are still at a loss to explain why and how vortex tubes work
If you will read what you said in that paragragh you jumped from talking about condensors straight to evaps in freezers. I wll take the hit and say I did not understand it.Quote:
I meant exactly what I said about the intercooler
So you ARE building a totally enclosed 2 stage cascade, with all the compressors located inside the chilled case. Along with the addition of the Vtubes.Quote:
An even better explanation would be this
I am no phyisist but I am feeling something here about over unity , and free energy. (yes, that one truly is intened to be sarcastic)
MOre to follow, so stick around
I'm reading it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moc
My goal was to have a system that could be moved without having to keep track of "what am I missing here? So I want everything kept together for integrity sake. That's why I only wanted the intercooler/condenser mounted outside of the case. Maybe that's delusional. But it's my delusion just the same. I think I should be entitled to at least one grand delusion.
Wdrzal, from what I was reading after your detailed post here before (which I think I appreciatively acknowledged), I thought I found what was evidence of means to deal/cope with the heat output of the vortex tubes. The two most promising solutions given from research was turboexpanders and pulse-tubes. Where the vortex tube's heat and oscillations were used to drive either of the two aforementioned resolutions.
Basically, the turboexpander becomes another expansion device. And the vortex tube replaces the typical driving mechanisms for pulse-tubes. So both wind up recovering what would have otherwise been lost as wasted heat. Yes, it comes down to a matter of practicality. The expense of both of them tends to rule them out. So I've been trying to determine another means of accomplishing what those two devices perform.
I'm still looking at how much of a performance gain can be seen from driving the vortex tubes with very cold (hopefully sub-zero C) inlet gas. I meant put the vortex tube between the TXV and the evaporator. All of the temperature measurements for the vortex tubes have been based on room temperature (using the Fahrenheit scale). And yes, I certainly know the difference between Celsius and Fahrenheit. I just don't think I should be required to give numbers in only one system, when most of you already know how to do your own conversions.
Shingoshi
I Said:
Reading your posts I'm not sure you understand that there is a difference between Temperature (measured in Celsius,Fahrenheit,Kelvin) and Heat (measured in BTU's, watts,kj/kg,calories)
I'm sorry I didn't catch that. Yeah, you're probably right. I need to have a better understanding of the difference so that I won't confuse things.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Let me see if this is correct:
Temperature is what we use to measure how warm something is.
Heat is what the thing we're measuring contains, and what's required to change it's temperature. In other words, you have to remove a given amount of heat to change the temperature of a thing?
Correct me. I'll gladly accept it!
Shingoshi
Lets replace thing with Energy.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
So you need to know the latent heat (the amount required to change it's phase), and from that, you'll know how much energy is required to change it's temperature? I think I'm wrong! Maybe getting closer, but still wrong nonetheless.
I really do need to get a book and read. Sorry guys!
Shingoshi
Changing phase uses the latent heat of vaporization and latent heat of fusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
Its been a very long time since I have had to remember the definitons of these so here is a Wiki link to get you started. I dont want to tell you the wrong thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat
I will keep my sarcasm in check.Quote:
I really do need to get a book and read.
Sitting there having to resist the opportunity to bite back. Oh the sheer pain of restraint! :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
Thanks! It really is appreciated. Especially after our past exchanges.
Shingoshi
Since high school chem? :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2...erefrid.th.jpg
If so, would you please explain it to me. Please! I saw something like this connected to a vortex tube. Here's the link to it. You'll need to have membership as I do. But it's free and worth the effort.
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1...efriger.th.jpg
Shingoshi
why dont you take a deep breath plan something, buy your parts and then come back here once your ready to build it.
No one wants to follow links nor do your design and homework for you. This is a complex build your planning and its obvious your in way over your head.
I want to articulate my agreement with this statement, but he's already blown off identical posts about two dozen times :shakes::shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by sdumper
He is just a kid running around...
I didn't look at the patent info for 2 reasons. first something doe NOT have to work to get a patent,just needs to be a unique idea. 2 if it does work it falls under patent laws and you can't copy the design unless the patent is expired.
One of the main benefits of patent studies, is to provide a guide post for the advancement of new work. If what you said here were true, there would be no legal right of one person to cite the work of another (and their patent) as the basis of their own new work. Anyone looking at the background of patents will quickly see that most patents are derivative works, and not in the least bit original, as in something that was never done before. In many cases, the new works represent modifications and subsequent advancements of the older preexisting patents.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
And it doesn't make any sense to talk about being barred from doing something which isn't possible. The real point is to examine explore and develop new ideas based on the good ideas of others.
Shingoshi
I'm now awaiting the delivery of two "York p015-03288-004 2 ton Compressor Matsu:banana::banana::banana::banana:a ptac" purchased from Ebay. These should settle any concerns for me about the ability to hold any load thrown at them. Thanks to a post by [XC] gomeler in another thread, I now have the idea of using both of these units in tandem. I believe they will have all of the necessary ports required for any of the interconnected lubrication issues without modification/alteration. I will then be using the smaller Rechi compressors strictly for subcooling the refrigerant as it leaves the condenser. The combination should be very productive. The Rechis will allow me to subcool the York compressor stream without reducing the performance of the tandem group. Typically, you have to split a portion of the main stream to provide for subcooling. I won't have to do this. The four Rechis will have that task all to themselves.
Shingoshi
EDIT: I guess you can't write Matsu****a, without this forum automatically thinking you've cursed!
And they're twins!
The Towers of York have arrived, Behold!
[IMG=http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5177/compressortwins.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9008/compressorlabel.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5134/compressortwinsvertical.th.jpg]
I finally found the documentation for these units.
[IMG=http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8163/matsushiacompressortabl.th.jpg]
They are a pair of K-Series Matsushi+a rotary compressors. These units appear to have a lower capacity than what was advertised. I'm not sure if I should file a complaint with Ebay or not? This was only my second time doing business on Ebay, and I don't know how strict they are about advertising correctly about specifications. These compressors have only a 19.6cc/rev displacement. I'm glad I didn't pay anywhere near full price!
Shingoshi
holy :banana::banana::banana::banana: those are huge
I am a bit disappointed though about how much smaller they are than what they were said to be. These aren't two ton units, and that's what I paid for. So if anyone has any input about what I should or could do about this, let me know. Because I think the price should have been lower, or I would have offered less had I know their true size.Quote:
Originally Posted by teyber
They do fit inside the case with it laying flat. But they're less than the 15" height of the case. I was thinking I might have to stand the case on it's side (which would have given me 22" of height) to accommodate them. But the base is too wide (9.5" square) to do that without making some sort of platform to stand them on. I may still do that though. Because having the case mounted on it's side presents opportunities that I won't otherwise have.
Shingoshi
EDIT: Here are some more pics to show the relative size between the larger and smaller compressors.
[IMG=http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7775/compressortwinsplacemen.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8569/rechicompressorcapacito.th.jpg]
Funny thing is, I just realized I have the start capacitors for the Rechi compressors. I hadn't opened the rest of their packaging until now!
It may be more relevant here.
As always, click on my images to see the links they point to!
I'm guessing you'd want to use something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by mEsUsah1
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_...ccumulator.jpg
So then the question now becomes,
1.) Which refrigerants are pretty much guaranteed not to condense at room temperature? R-744?
2.) Specifically, which refrigerants need very low temperatures to condense? I know that R-14 is a candidate.
3.) Should both compressors be a different size? The first one larger than the second?
4.) Could such a system function with only a single refrigerant? Or would you still need another seeding refrigerant (like R-600a) to work for the subcooler downstream from the second compressor?
5.) Could you have a combination of refrigerants all incapable of condensing at room temperature? (That seems to make sense)
6.) So which refrigerants require an even lower condensing temperature than R-744/CO2?
Shingoshi
EDIT: Sorry for repeating myself. I keep re-editing my text, and I wind up with redundant questions.
EDIT: I always learn so much from these guys!
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co.../header_07.png
EDIT: I think this applies to this subject as well:
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/images/PCT...gz_en.x4-b.jpg
A very interesting link from YouTube on the phases of R-744.
Triple-Point Analysis of Carbon-Dioxide
i think you shold post this project on RE i think they will all say wtf for :)
and i linked you the co2 clip in another thread
oh and is it build yet i just wonderd as its getting cold over here in the uk and thought you may have swiched it on :rofl::rofl:
This was an answer to the questions listed below. But my response will show the direction I'm taking in the planning of this project. So it really needs to be here as well.
1+2.) Let's concentrate on R-744 as my baseline for this discussion. I need to look at how much pressure I need to get the condensation point low enough to work with. I need to take the time to convert bar to psi to see what I'm working with here. My main concern is that I don't want too much pressure inside my gas coolers. Specifically because they weren't designed for this (They're actually very large 32"x12"x3" Turbocharger Intercoolers). So I don't want the pressure inside of them to be higher than say 200psi. I want to use my smaller compressors to bump the pressure up from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by mEsUsah1
3.) My two compressor sizes are 19.6cc and 7.75cc respectively for the Matsushi+a (York) and Rechi. That's about a 2.5x difference between them.
4.) I have a total of six compressors. Two York and four Rechi. See my link I posted above to see them together. I want to use the two York (Panasonic/Matsu) compressors in tandem/parallel for my first stage. I simply want to use them to provide for the system's volume/load capacity. I then want to divide the four Rechi compressors into two separate tandem/parallel groups. The first tandem group will be used to bump the pressure of the refrigerant up coming from the gas coolers. The second tandem group will be used to subcool the refrigerant leaving the first group, passing the heat back to the outbound refrigerant.
So there will be two completely separate refrigerant loops in the system. The first loop will have the combination of both the York and Rechi compressors. This loop will likely have R-744 as the main refrigerant. The Yorks will be (first-stage) before the gas cooler, and the Rechis will be (second-stage) after the gas cooler. The second independent loop will have only the last two Rechi compressors to provide the subcooling. The subcooling loop will likely have R-600a as the refrigerant. The two loops (main flow and subcooling) will run in counterflow. The inside subcooling Rechi loop is moving refrigerant in the opposite direction against the main incoming refrigerant loop. Instead of the subcooling loop having it's own condenser, it will use a heat-exchanger to cool the subcooling refrigerant with the refrigerant coming from the evaporator of the main loop. This will also be done with the two Rechi compressors in the second stage.
I'll leave 4+5 alone for now.
Thanks for your time!
Shingoshi
You know whats funny...your going to pull this thing off and were all going to be sitting here eating crow :)
Good luck and glad your compressors came in. Is 220v going to be a problem for you?
Check out Nasa. I watched something on Discovery the other day about Hubble and they fitted a cryo cooling unit for one of the cameras. Nitrogen cooler. Admitly it is -270c up there defore any extra cooling on items
I found that out from the maintenance worker here. The electric heaters all use a separate 240V line to operate them. So I shouldn't have a problem with the current.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdumper
And I'll try not to gloat too much while everyone here is eating crow. Because the fact is, I'll have to eat some myself. I'll still be making mistakes along the way. So maybe we can just have a big BBQ and eat crow together!
Shingoshi
EDIT: One thing about the gas coolers mentioned above. I think I will be using four of them, all mounted vertically to the bottom of the case, so that their inlets/outlets are at the top. That will effectively prevent any chance of fluid coming back into the second-stage compressors. Here are the pics of these units again, so you can see what I'm talking about.
[IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/6015/fmic3210031.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3728/fmic3210036.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/519/fmic3210033.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9519/fmic32100345.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/226/fmic3210032.th.jpg]
As should be obvious to everyone, I'll have to put endcaps on each of these with concentrically-located nipples mounted for my gas lines. That shouldn't be difficult to do. So I'll either be brazing or heliarc welding them, depending on which metal the endcaps are.
That doesn't look like a capacitor but a thermal overload for those rechie's. Capacitors will have a uf or mfd rating.
yepp :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
I don't know anything! I just saw something and thought maybe I got the capacitors after all. I know someone else who brought these same compressors had complained about not being able to find the right ones. So when I saw these things, I thought maybe I got lucky. But then, I'm rarely ever lucky!Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
When the time comes, I'll be asking you guys how or where to install them. They seem like they go on the top of the unit. So the capacitors must mount remotely from the compressors themselves, huh?
Hi guys! I was wondering where you all have been.
Shingoshi
Run caps are dirt cheap so dont sweat it but yes the one pictured is an overload protector which is more expensive than a start or run cap ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
Pictures do wonders for getting us to post :) Honestly, I am fairly busy and dont always have the time to read all of the detail but when I see a picture with a short question then that i can handle :)
I really want to say Thank You, sdupmer. I actually felt a sense of, they may begin to take me seriously after all. And that felt good. So Thank You!
About the camera issue. When I first started this project, I didn't own a digital camera. I brought one just for this project. The first one I brought about two months ago, died. It simply won't power up no matter what I do. The lens locked in the open position, and gave up the ghost. So I brought another digital camera. Ironically, I got it earlier the same day I got my compressors. And given my experience with the last one, I wasn't sure what to expect with this one. But as can clearly be seen, for the time being anyway, it's working. So I hope I will be able to maintain my earlier promise to have pictures of every stage of this project. And I'll try not to be too excessive, which can be a problem for me (As some may have noticed!).
I guess you can all thank naja002 for kicking me in the pants to get a camera. So I guess I should thank him too!
So I'll need to get two caps for the York compressors, and four for the Rechis. Good to know they're not expensive. So another question I have is whether anyone has ever seen any other major device combined with an oil-trap?
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_...ccumulator.jpg
I read in one of the other threads (in this forum) that some one thought the image of the combination accumulator/sub-cooler (I've posted again) would have worked for oil trapping as well. It was just a suggestion. So I'm wondering if such a thing really exists? I'm the kind of guy who likes things that can perform more than one function.
I'm going to need something to provide for the equalization of oil pressure between my compressors for the tandem arrangement to work properly. The Yorks already have quite substantial accumulators mounted on them. The Rechi's accumulators are much smaller. What do these images tell any of you about how I'd have to equalize the oil pressure between the York compressors? I've really not wanted to drill any holes in the compressors, (as has been suggested many times) without knowing what's on the other side. At least with the diagram now I can tell what's where.
[IMG=http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/695/compressordiagram.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4508/compressoraccumilatorfu.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9958/compressoraccumilatorbo.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1166/compressorrechiaccumula.th.jpg]
One thing to keep in mind about all of this. I will need oil traps after each of the three tandem compressor groups. The separate subcooling loop won't be a problem, since it is isolated from the main refrigeration loop. But the main loop presents a bigger problem to deal with. That's because the larger York compressors will be in the same loop as the smaller Rechi compressors. Now it seems intuitive that I should be able to isolate the Yorks from the Rechis by simply having each tandem group return oil from their own trap, back to the same group. If that's correct, please let me know. But, I still need to equalize the pressure in each of the separate tandem groups.
Good thing I got the camera, huh?
Thanks guys!
Shingoshi
Not sure if you are talking about an oil trap or an oil seperator. Oil traps are usually used in long suction piping runs that have a hieght difference between the condesing unit and evap. Oil seps are mounted near/in the condensing units and help prevent oil from leaving the condesing unit.Quote:
So another question I have is whether anyone has ever seen any other major device combined with an oil-trap?
But yes I have seen these used with eithe. It is a suction accumulator with a subcooler. I think the last one I bought was a sporlan. Sorry I dont remember the mod numbers. The do not work as oil traps. It works the same as any other accumulator.
I didn't realize the difference between the two types of oil handlers (traps and separators) in a system. What I really want to do is remove all the oil from my refrigerant stream BEFORE it enters the condensers. Because the way I will have the condensers mounted on the bottom of my case with their inlets/outlets on top, only gaseous refrigerant would ever be able to leave the condenser and any oil entering it would be trapped. So I have to keep oil from ever getting in the condenser to begin with. With that in mind, I will likely have to use a very good oil separator after the York compressors. And if I really don't feel absolutely confident about using only one separator, then I will use two in series, one behind the other.
But I really want to thank you for clarifying my previous confusion here.
Shingoshi
Coalesing filters (temprite 901) work best in parallelQuote:
then I will use two in series, one behind the other.
But this was such a detail response, that I felt it deserved the attention of the few who would not know this, but are still following this thread.
This post just begged to be respected for the amount of information relayed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mEsUsah1
EDIT: Now that I got my 2nd camera, I really need to get a good drawing program so I can sketch my concepts out for all to see. I realize it is a disadvantage for the rest of you not knowing exactly what I mean when I say something. And it doesn't help any of us for you who are knowledgeable to not be able to give precise answers to my questions. So I'm going to look again for an easy drafting program to learn and use. Suggestions for a good (and free) program to use would be very appreciated!
Shingoshi
All of this criticism about me not taking pictures has led me back into my old first love. First I got one digital camera which failed and forced me to get another one. Now that I've gotten the second camera, I wanted something that could use to record video. So I tried bidding online for a Canon L1, thinking that I would have work done on it as required. I lost that bid and moved onto another. So I tried bidding on a Canon XL1 (which was absurdly foolish) and lost that too!
Ultimately in frustration, I decided to build my own video system. Having years of experience with interchangeable lenses, I didn't want a video system which didn't provide that functionality. So I thought, "what could give me what I want on the cheap without losing an quality in the process. The answer came as a CCTV camera which I purchased. It's a Samsung SSC-131A Digital CCTV camera. My next focus was on my lenses. For that, I chose to use the Leica M39 Thread Mount system. My second line of attack is the old Pentax M42 Universal lenses of old.
I'm telling you all of this for two reasons. One, to let you know why I haven't posted anything in a while. And two, to maybe give some of you the chance to consider alternative approaches to common problems. My goal here was to have a video system to document the progress of my build. Still pictures simply won't cut it here. I need to provide the means for some to actually see how things are put together in a way that provides greater clarity of the subject matter. So I'm posting pictures of what I've accomplished so far in my distraction, and probably won't post anything else here about the camera again. I just hope some of you find this fascinating. It has certainly brought a big smile to my face.
This is basic camera as it was acquired, and the Leica M39::C-mount adapter:
[IMG=http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7971/samsungscc131adsc00054.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1066/leitzoutdsc00070.th.jpg]
The camera with it's lens removed, and the new Leica M39 adapter waiting to be attached:
[IMG=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2315/leitzoutdsc00071.th.jpg]
The Leica M39 adapter now attached:
[IMG=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3656/leitzoutdsc00074.th.jpg]
The back of the camera (Note the BNC::RJ45 connector):
[IMG=http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5761/samsungscc131adsc00056.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/893/scc131acamerabackdsc001.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1395/scc131acamerabackdsc001r.th.jpg]
I also have a M42::C-mount adapter. It's shown here with the camera and the Lentar 28mm f/2.8 lens I just got today from Ebay for $26:
[IMG=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3914/tmountm39adapterlentard.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5871/tmountm39adapterlentarde.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4807/tmountm39adapterlentardc.th.jpg]
The lens I got today almost looks new, with the exception of some wear on the lens mount (like yours) which is never seen while in use. I'm going to post pictures of it for you to see. It's absolutely pretty!
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3...terlentard.jpg http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4...eddsc00122.jpg http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3...eddsc00123.jpg
I found this link when checking to see what quality I should expect from this lens. There may have been other links for others. But this page really convinced me this lens would be a good bet for my system. So as I have already done on Hin's Tech Corner, I really want to thank him for the affirmation to get this lens! Just look at his pictures to see why!
That's the end of my being off-topic!
At some point though, I will also install an observation camera inside the case as well. Something small with a very wide coverage angle.
Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
[IMG=http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4359/lentar28mmf28dsc00124.th.jpg]