That's freakin awesome! Congrats Fugger and I want to see some pics!
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That's freakin awesome! Congrats Fugger and I want to see some pics!
You guys have me pumped up to spend the $$$ to get my -140C Polycold recharged!!!
C
Same thing here with my freezer thingy.Quote:
fugger, your heat exchanger is in the bottom of your units box. Notice the thickness of yer interior wall on the bottom of the box?
Its this big funky coil of tube in tube.
See there the bugger is :D
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/c...txhanger_s.jpg
Here's how it looks like at the moment (waiting for some parts)
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/cascade/parts_s.jpg
(click pics for better view)
Cool, good to know what direction to go if/when I pull mine apart
It looks it uses CO2 in the II stage
lamao, wtf is that . it looks like a revco heatexchanger with a solow bottom. i bet that was a royal pain in the butt! I've never torn one down that far, ive only seem them like that at the factory. Good job you maniac.
berkut, thats a standard cascade heat exchanger. ill post pics of a different design used by forma, later.
that is basicly what my heatexchanger looks like
anyone wanna put up some pics?:D :D
Jason, its using Necchi compressors and heres what it says on the box.
berkut, there is (was) some CO2 backup funtion on this freezer but it says its using some 'COLMIX' refrigerant on 2nd stage (and R502 in 1st). I guess its some mixture by Colora (this freezer is made by colora). It went down to around -91C with that refrigerant (air temp measured inside the freezer).
The idea is to build a dual evap system (CPU, GPU) and obviously get rid of cap tube config.
never seen one of those before. that propriatary refrigerantis probly just 290 and 503, you can use 290 and 95 without any cap tube mod.
what are you sayin about doin away with a cap tube?
I was thinking about the TXV config but at the moment it seems that cap tube is all I can do (with single evap obviously).
Going to use Suva95 (R508B) on cascade 2nd stage as it appers to be about the only available stuff around here for good temps. Any better ideas for cascade 2nd stage refrigerant?
I've got the dryiers, connectors, coppertubin, tools etc pretty much figured out and will probably use flexible Dunlop HiFlex tubin to connect evap on this thing.
Hopefully this thing will do some major cooling in the upcoming days :D
If you have access to it, I would say that ethylene (R1150) would give you some very decent temperatures. If the rest of the system is up to it, of course.Quote:
Originally posted by macci
Any better ideas for cascade 2nd stage refrigerant?
Errrrrrrr, I'm currently working on a cascade, and it looks like I may be left with a spare 14# of R-13. That is if a particular source is willing to let go of the 23# drum for a resonably cheap price. That is a price that makes the proposed R-23 and mineral oil to POE oil change out less cost effective. :p:
you'll only get -80c with r-23... -85c if your lucky. Manufacturers used to have 2 freezers you could buy, a -70 - -80c cheaper, or a -75 - -85 more expensive,. The price difference wasn't much i dont think, but some people didnt need -85c so they saved a little money.... Of course the cheaper one has r-23, and the more expensive has r-95...
Manufacturers stoped doing this about 3-5 years ago because the price differences got closer and closer, also because r-95 is a far superior refrigerant. We still have a big bottle we never use, we always just retrofit to 95.
Just did the first test run with totally uninsulated system and measured evap temp of -84C :D
Heatexchanger hot side was at -9C no idea about to cold part of that (most likely around -35C)
I only ran it for a few mins and checked that stuff is working.
The evap has a leak on it so i need to fix that. With insulation and tweakin with the system I hope to reach even better temps.
but so far so good :)
good job man. what is that, three of these things we got goin now?
get some 1150 and yoll get even better temps
Well guys i wont win with you in terms of pure raw power (R23, a/c compressors..) but here's my secret weapon :D :
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postid=269584
Hope that with that baby (youre not supposed to look @ anything else exept the injector :D) ill be able to play with you guys... and the sysemn worked today with R22 in the I and II stage ;]
ahh ya some progresss!!! nice work man how long did u let her run for? temps?
nice one there berkut :)
r22 on 1st and 2nd? what kind of temps did you get with that config?
looks like an evap that might be rather difficult to mount and insulate.
btw, piccy from the first cascade run :D
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/c...aptemp_r23.jpg
ThanksQuote:
Originally posted by macci
nice one there berkut :)
r22 on 1st and 2nd? what kind of temps did you get with that config?
looks like an evap that might be rather difficult to mount and insulate.
I dont know the temps, i dont have any good enough termometers i know that the sst was @ ~-65C
I dont think that insulating it will be difficult, and the evap you see on the pic is a test evap
woops misunderstanding? i think.. sometimes i just go off on rants
ThxQuote:
nice one
Im trying to do as much as i can from the parts i have
Its a good thing that R23 is very cheap in Poland (as well as R22)
Tomorrow ill try to build the rest of my system so everything will be ready for the new flex hoses and dual evaps...
Forgot to ask 1 more thing:
What should be the ratio between the high and low side of a II stage ? is about 40:1 ok ?
btw, I'm doing this project only cos I happend to find the freezer for free.
dont have the cash to do one from scratch.
also I'm not useing Suva95 cos that stuff costs 240€ per kg and the minium order is 4.5kg (=1080€!!)
woops misunderstanding?
CC, Macci is the man.
He could have an avatar of a cruton with some frost on it and chances are it will still beat our ass in the end.
yea... there's no beating that Finn :) he's the king period.
His website is truly an Overclockers shrine/museum. If it contains silicon and metal traces, MACCI has overclocked it.
C
captaincascade,
dont get me wrong - I have huge respect for berkut and all the other phasechange pros around here. I have learned a lot of things from here.
ok I (finally) got some data on these comps I'm using, there necchi 21cm3 r22 units, nominal capacity 778W
cc, im tryin to reply to ur PM but it says ur PM mailbox is full
some idle temp testing :D
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/cascade/-96c.jpg
macci, how is your cascade charged ? Do you vapour charge it to a certain temp or charge it like a normal system during work. What are your static pressures ? Do you have any relief tank?
ah dammit, you tied me. now i gota build a 3 stage.
good job man.
competition makes us all achieve.
oh and also throw a rag over that thing for insulation, you'll probly get better temps.
try it now macci
macci dou have a baker block on there? i cant really tell since theres to much frost on it;) sweeet job man and what kinda load are u puttin on it? what are u using for an idle load?
Some guys are always lucky :)
looks like a hollow evap ^^Quote:
Originally posted by Pimpsho
macci dou have a baker block on there? i cant really tell since theres to much frost on it;) sweeet job man and what kinda load are u puttin on it? what are u using for an idle load?
And some of us work hard to find all their parts like u and me ;]Quote:
Some guys are always lucky
:D Don't go giving him ideas. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by FUGGER
CC, Macci is the man.
He could have an avatar of a cruton with some frost on it and chances are it will still beat our ass in the end.
its a macci evap :D
base is some socket A full copper heatsink (volcano7+ style just a bit smaller), then a piece of copper pipe and copperplate on top of that.
and like I said that was only idle temp test, no load (except surrounding air).
I tested it with the 156W pelt (Umax 15.3V IIRC) running at 12V and then the evap temp went up to -75C zone. heatexhanger was not insulated at this point and I have a feeling that the captube might be a bit too long for that heatload.
berkut, its charged normally, cant remember the pressures and whats a relief tank (sorry I dont know the terminology)??
The heatexchanger is insulated now. Gotta test it some more soon =)
nice....that evap looks kinda huge....how r u gonna insulate it?....i must see.....
Day 1 at Comdex done, almost 24 in operation on the Comdex floor. 72 hours left.
Flawless operation so far.
Got any pictures to gaze at ?Quote:
Originally posted by FUGGER
Day 1 at Comdex done, almost 24 in operation on the Comdex floor. 72 hours left.
Flawless operation so far.
I'm looking forward to a Prescott on this rig, can you give any idea when you will have one to play with ?
Regards
Andy
So Fugger...
What's gonna' be a hotter chip? The first Prescott's or the EE Northwood??
C
In 3DM01, it would be the Northwood EE clock for clock just because that benchmark uses the cache immensely. But, for a max score it will depend on how high the Prescott will clock to beat out the EE or not.Quote:
Originally posted by charlie
So Fugger...
What's gonna' be a hotter chip? The first Prescott's or the EE Northwood??
C
On other benches showing pure CPU power the Prescott would likely win.
Damnit still no tripple digit temps here :D
-97.8C is the best this thing can do in idle mode.
I did some real testing with the evap on CPU. And was really happy to see that it worked quite nicely.
First test was with uninsulated evap on 2.4C+AI7 board running at the max the mobo could do in stock form (~310x12 3.7G) running Vcore at max value (1.9V set in the BIOS, 1.85V actual).
Looping 3DMark2001 got the evap up to -81C zone.
Then I put some insulation (not optimal yet) on evap and tried a 3.0C+P4C800 combo that would run SuperPi 1M at 4206MHz with R404 modded prommy (evap at -45C).
With the cascade cooler the CPU would run the test at 4406MHz and evap temp didnt get any higher than -83C. So obviously the insulation helped quite a bit there. Idle mode in WinXP at 4.4G evap temp went below -90C (-94C was the coldest I saw when in winxp)
I located another somewhat broken cryofreezer too :D
The only thing that was broken was some silly battery and temp probe (I replaced the 12V batter with PSU 12V line and it would start up and run nicely).
This one has 28cm3 copeland on 1st stage and some Bristol comp (seems to be a bit bigger than the copeland one) on 2nd stage.
btw, I'm using protective gear when I play with the cascade:
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/c...protection.jpg
LOL!! That's really funny...However, the work you're doing and the results that you are getting are Anything but funny...Great job! :toast:
btw, We should all wear a cool looking protective suit like that! :D
what's a cascade? sorry, i'm a phase change n00b.
Start hereQuote:
Originally posted by Slickthellama
what's a cascade? sorry, i'm a phase change n00b.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...0&pagenumber=1
and meet me back here in 3 days :D
approx how much would it cost to build myself a Phase change system? And how do i cond. prevent w/o voiding warranties? Danke sehr :toast:
Looks Like a white version of those guys in the old intel commercials ROFL:DQuote:
Originally posted by macci
btw, I'm using protective gear when I play with the cascade:
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/c...protection.jpg
Tha picture of macci ( or is it ? :) ) made me LMAO . :D If it is then bloody sensible anyhow !
Actually, it is a good point on safety. Having read the differences of opinion on cascades from the experts, the use of dry ice ( producing CO2 in quantities ) and using LN2 I'm wondering who will be the first overclocker to really hurt themselves or worse :(
An extra 200Mhz on the P4 is nice work, with the extra freezer being sorted out and the P4 EE ( 999Euro as pointed out ;) ) on the way looks like it could be very promising.
I bet that -100C goal is like a red rag to a bull ...
Regards
Andy
if you want me to cheat (using existing equipment moded (no offense macci) wit a computer evap) i can have -100c tonight.
i prefer to make my own, makes it all that much more satisfying.
if it means that much to you let me know, im at my shop right now.
Well actually he has one other like that but even bigger in his back pocket so.... What do you think a XT would do at those temps?!
i just got here.:D :D
I don't think it means anything at all to macci aprt from the fact that -100c would be a nice number to get and it's a means to an end.Quote:
Originally posted by captaincascade
if you want me to cheat (using existing equipment moded (no offense macci) wit a computer evap) i can have -100c tonight.
i prefer to make my own, makes it all that much more satisfying.
if it means that much to you let me know, im at my shop right now.
You seem to want to be able to get the coldest setup around whereas macci just makes it to get a good 3dmark score and in the meantime accidently pummels you into the dust celcius wise ;) .. so no point going on about how he did it :)
cheat ? by using old equipment, you sound like a yank being beaten by a European :D
By the way 2 years ago it was -47C in Finland where macci comes from. so he got half way to your temp by just opening the window .. ( joke :D )
"i can have -100c tonight"
Go on then, lets see the money
Regards
Andy
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/c...05_closeup.jpg
(click the pic for better view)
Hmmz, you change the evap ? What was wrong with the old one ? Or is it your new freezer ?
*edit* i see you have a new freezer and your working on it ;] How long is your heat exchanger ?
the first one will be GPU cooler so I put GPU evap on it :D
nothing wrong with the other, its just going to the other cascade.
heatxchanger is around 10m
Hmm, only 4m longer than mine and looks much, MUCH bigger !
Is that -105C shot made on R23 ?
Yup R23 is all I can get.
what pressures you got? r23 is at 4 inches hg vacuum at -85c. youd have to be at like 40 inches hg to get that temp. what size compressors are u using?
it has some nice vacuum yes ;)
2x21cm3 nominal capacity 778W
heatxhanger hot side at -40C (as seen in the bigger pic)
bitting toungue...... physically imposible with what you have....
your saying you have 40inches hg vacuum?
Captain,
I want to try about -80 to -100 this weekend on a AMD chip. You got anything rigged up??
BTW: Nice cooler Macci :)
OPP
I think I can come up with something ;) :D
What kind of pressures are you running on low stage?Post some pictures of the gauges.I am guessing somewhere around 100psi high side and at least 20" low side.Quote:
Originally posted by macci
it has some nice vacuum yes ;)
2x21cm3 nominal capacity 778W
heatxhanger hot side at -40C (as seen in the bigger pic)
Quote:
Originally posted by captaincascade
bitting toungue...... physically imposible with what you have....
your saying you have 40inches hg vacuum?
im wrong, did some homework. guess its possible?
wont be long now. the next lightning storm ill get the 1.21 jigawhatts i need to start my machine...
sorry im living in the metric world, how do u convert this " 20" vacuum" to bars or pascals etc?? :)
edit: ok google helped me a bit (not much)..
so for instance 23" hq equals to -0.8 bar
..so -1bar is like 29" vacuum??
http://www.paroscientific.com/convtable.htm
Inches of Hg x 3386.388 = Pascal
to hell with u weirdo non-metric ppl!
-105C SST with R23 needs 0.21 bara evap pressure. This is not impossible; my R410A cascade runs at comparable pressures.
To get -105C on the evap unloaded, we would need at most -107C SST, giving us 0.19 bara pressure. Also possible.
Diagram of the system I am running.
http://fugger.netfirms.com/Cascade.jpg
Woohoo, I see an expansion tank :)
Indeed volume is good, living in the ideal gas world PV = nRT, and since V n and R are fixed in a refrigeration system when ambient T goes up so does P.Quote:
Originally posted by MickeyMouse
is the expan. tank to help with high pressure when the setup is off??
Although my question is, on an expansion tank surely you want the inlet to be at the bottom with the tank ontop (think upside down mapp bottle) as to stop it filling up with oil right?
]JR[
1 a lil stupic question. How big tanks should be used in systems like Fugger's ?
Just an educated guess:
Fugger's system was at 650psi static pressure. Now, he used a Danfoss SC12 of which I estimate the internal free gas volume at 2500cc. The oil sep does another 1000cc. And then his piping, which I estimate to be 300cc. Together this adds up to 3800cc. Now, reducing the static pressure to 100 psi and following the ideal gas law requires the total volume to be enlarged to 6.5 * 3800cc, so we need 5.5 * 3800cc = 20900cc = 21L = about 5.5 gallons.
Now, if fugger could reduce high side volume and required liquid before expansion device entrance, the required refrigerant charge would drop fast, and so would expansion tank size.
This really makes me uncertain whether or not I want a more sophisticated expansion device than a captube on my cascade.
Reciever 2.5 in dia x 3 in high, Liquid line is 3/16 in and 4 feet long. And your missing the 2.5 cuft in the condenser. . I have only 14 oz r508 in system...
Whats better than having a tripple digit cascade??
...having two tripple digit cascades of course :D
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/c..._evap_-100.jpg
The Doom's Day Cooler :D
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/c...ualcascade.jpg
Holy sh*t! :slobber:
And I thought I was crazy :)
Damn! Someone's making a BIG comeback! :D
What temps are you getting under load....
macci is going to make OPP and FUGGER look like kids playing in the backyard soon Im afraid...lol
macci did you consider making a 3 stage cascade ? Your 2nd cascade with your SC12 compressor as the 3rd stage with i dunno, R14 ?
I think it was with the older one thats on the GPU. The newer should preform even better;)Quote:
Originally posted by MickeyMouse
I saw -88c or lower with a 4.4+ P4 somehwhere looping 2k1 ;)
macci: Do you now have the EE to play with?
heres my first run with new machine from hell.
please note the calibration sticker on my meter.
thats cool macci, you cut the side off a revco chest. awsome setup! im gunna have to send a pic of that to earl (director of tech service revco) they'll get a kick outa that.
was it a pain to saw it off? cause it looks goog like that. where did you put the heat exchanger?
Awesome temps Captain :D
Jason, I've got 350FSB so far (RAM 263) :DQuote:
I still think a A64 alone with a 310-320mhz fsb 5:4 divider with a 3ghz+ speed even tho SC ddr would come really fkn close to 30k
CC, some nice temps there sir :)
what stuff you using there?
the heatexchanger is on the left in the piccy (you can see some PU-insulation there)
Macci, that is a amazing sight. I bet all the stuff required for that cost quite a bit but its like the system of everyones dreams so who cares :D
Jason, yea 350fsb was with K8N -nonpro mobo...but it was only when GF4 was plugged in. With XT I haven't gone higher than 270 3d stable.
With the K8N Pro things seem to work a bit better (it seems to be clock to clock faster than the non pro too). So far I've ran full 3dmark loop at 311FSB with XT in it :)
totally non modded mobo still. but it took a while to find somewhat working bios settings.
something like 305 6:5 ram with 9.5x multi should do nicely if I can do it 3dstable :)
the A64 would run superpi 1M at 2920MHz so far with spreader on.
That's a very good temp from CC , -110C next ? :)
Macci, that is a great setup, how is
1) the video card doing with the cascade on compared to before?
2) can you give us a clue to what sort of scores you are getting for 3dmark2001 whilst you continue to fine tune ?
3) Do you cool that beer down whilst benching with your rig ?
Wer're not going to see an AMD64 beating up FX51/P4 EE's are we ?
:eek:
Regards
Andy
Macci!
lol...what more can i say?
A giant among midgets...
C
Good questions. Macci, let us know. :)Quote:
Originally posted by zakelwe
Macci, that is a great setup, how is
1) the video card doing with the cascade on compared to before?
2) can you give us a clue to what sort of scores you are getting for 3dmark2001 whilst you continue to fine tune ?
3) Do you cool that beer down whilst benching with your rig ?
Did you rent out a studio or something? 4 compressors, a CRT monitor, and a heavily overclocked computer would overload a circuit in any home.
Most homes in USA have 10A 110Vac power circuits, what are they in Europe, mainly Finland?
over here its 3x 32A (Poland) @ 240V
230V, usually at 10A. But in our house we also have some 6A and 16A. Depends on your needs.
Making some changes again Rev 12 incomming
17 years later :-)
Hay Macci hows the weather in Finland:D Cold I bet:D
I just want to get in touch with everybody,, else here's a flash from the past.
See attached
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...w=1536&bih=782
Any updates?
I have the Auto ready, wiring it into its new location this week.
-156c
Wiring done.
I am making a clam shell for MSDT and HEDT sockets, getting ready for long duration runs.