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Yep, your right, I was too broad on that statement. Modern I guess was meaning pretty darn new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I retract my statement as meaning it's way the best. Still way better than the 350. All depends on your overall loop.
I got caught up in the moment. And thats a bad thing here. Data darnit, data!
This test isn't really all that hard to understand.
I could see how the flow restriction differential between the two blocks could be amplified or reduced depending on pump type used, and how that could translate to differences in final performance as the flowrate through the radiator changes... but seriously folks, this is pretty damn straightforward data. I don't really see any reason to question it in itself.
Sure, a scenario which more accurately represents an average WC loop may provide more useful data, but without control such as in this test, it might not either.
At best I find this to be a comparison of the two block's performance under controlled conditions, and at worst I find it to be sort of interesting. No reason to go calling BS and such though.
Gabe, what coolant was used in the test? It probably would have only minimal effect but a heavily glycol laden coolant could amplify the restrictive effects of the 350 due to higher viscosity. The flow resistive effects of a higher viscosity coolant would be amplified in a high restriction block while in a lower restriction block they would be minimal. It would be interesting to see a test with pure water and then a heavy glycol mix (just for fun if anything).
Your point is valid, your math is not. What if you reduce the gpm on the gtz to 1 ;) , cant just shave of 1gpm. The flow rate would probably be just above 1gpm for the 350.Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
well, that's what the ~ was for but I would be willing to wager that it is <1 because the ek supreme can easily see sub 1 gpm flowratesQuote:
Originally Posted by eXa
This thread is making me embarrassed and I find myself wincing as I read. *sigh*. Can you guys not understand that if he uses teh same pump in the dayum tests as he used everything else the same.... that it leaves only the blocks as the variables???? <<< Hence the whole idea of the test? I also note some snide remarks AFTER admin folk came in and warned.
Anyway, heres the bottom line : IN a 'real world' enviroment with 'retail' pumps we'll see a temp diff in favour of the GTZ, and I can say this purely on what Gabe has told us even not knowing the pump he used, as long as I know that he used the same pump and the same settings for voltage.
More tests will ensue I'm sure from the general community.
That's pretty much the way I understood it too. You can't test blocks unless you isolate the variables and that is exactly what Gabe did. I read some of the posts, but couldn't figure out what they were trying to get at because this testing is as good as it gets. Even Nik said he has *been there* and seen the test setup and said it was an excellent test rig.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] riptide
I am very grateful for this data. This is the kind of thing that is extremely valuable. This kind of Data is the bottom line. Everything else is just guesses without data like this. I know i couldn;t even begin to run these kinds of tests. I don;t have the equipment for it. I am very grateful to the people who do though and the ones who spend their time to help people like me.
I wanna personally thank Gabe for providing these test results.
It's true that I cannot figure any reason to discredit the results of this test.
However: As consumers and as rational people it is prudent to question results and remain skeptical, especially if those results contradict with what we've previously been told.
What variables could there be? Honestly...I can't find any that make enough sense to request a re-test.
-Higher heat load? That might be the most valid request because we ALL run overclocked CPUs. But still...why would the result be so different?
- Lower coolant temperature? Many of us run ~30C coolant temp so it was a standard choice. However in my uncontrolled testing, I've noticed some variance in deltas with different water temps. -- I don't have precise control like swiftech does, however. 25C and 35C perhaps? - meh...
- Flow rates? That wasn't much of a question for me. He used a powerful pump setup obviously, and that's enough. It seems like he maximized the performance of both blocks and eliminated the pump heat variable (possibly).
- This would depend on the position of the pump and where the water temp. measurement was taken - however it should not account for the magnitude of difference in performance measured anyway.
- Finally, to restate my last post, the pump's position in the line may make a difference. I think HondaCity had better temps with his 350 using the pump directly before the block.
I am defending my previous post. I do understand enough to grasp this thread, however there are some SMALL variables to address. I'm still satisfied with what GABE provided, however. I'm still a fan of the GTZ, and I'll consider it if I upgrade. Additionally: from back in the Procooling BillA days... I've always liked Swiftech :)
Well there has been testing already in a more "real-world" context, that suggests a temp diff in favour of the 350. I'm referring to Hondacity's and NaeKuh's tests. Those tests showed an edge of 1-2C over EK's supreme. So IMO, we need to be careful about drawing conclusions in either case.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] riptide
I thought that is what I remembered as well, if the Ek Supreme beats the GTZ (in Martin's tests) and the koolance block has been seen to edge out the Supreme...It would seem logical to think that the koolance block would be the winner here although it also looks to take the award for most restrictive block as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by migueld
i really dont understand whats so hard in understanding the data gabe has provided, he set his pumps to a precise amount of GPM and using a chiller to keep the water temp at 30C taking out any possible ambient temp problems.
and ran both blocks. both the same flow rate and the 350 has a lower GPM because its more restrictive. what is the point at running both blocks at the same GPM when in the real world a pump is set at a set single set flow rate and it be impossible to run the 350 at the same GPM as the GTZ since the 350 would need a stronger pump. so in order for gabe to get the same GPM he would have to crank up that pump of his to probable higher then a real world pump could to get that 350's gpm up to 2.33 like the GTZ, but what happens when you run the GTZ at the new flow rate that took the 350 to get to get to 2.33? guess what is raises too.
what can you guys not understand here. dang man go back to school.
Riptide, its just some can't read and apply the data given...
Ranker, not enough toes have been stepped on yet... Good Entrance, nothing less expected of you.
i just dont understand how someone so new to the world of water cooling can sit there and try to argue professionals or people that have been on here doing this longer then they have been using a computer to play solitaire..just amazes me..
anyway great testing...
and i do believe thats its ok to question things and try to figure out stuff..but seriously when u have over half of the guru's on here pretty much saying your an idiot ..its time to sit back, watch and learn..
Remember that Martin tested on a quad core which was 2 separate dies. Blocks can perform different on a center single die CPU like the i7.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellcamino
Heh, as if gabe is going to comment back on this thread.
Why should he waste his time explaining himself to people who lack the simple skills to understand that the GPM measurement simply refers to the resistance the block placed upon the loop.
5 pages later, and people still can't grasp this simple fact.
and what happens when you add more pressure to a starved block which gabe's tests shows the 350 as?Quote:
Originally Posted by Conumdrum
:rofl:
You guys seriously need to learn how to read gabe's data...
Seriously... then your allowed to fight and complain..
Until you guys learn that... just say thank you gabe, and move on..
How many people can simple turn up their pumps to accommodate a more restrictive block? How many pumps can someone add just to compensate for a more restrictive block? This test is to show, at a given constant pumping power, how both blocks perform. If you turn up the power of the pump for one block, you must do so for the other block as well to keep testing constant.Quote:
Originally Posted by santiagodraco
I personally would like the know the flow rate and static head pressure of the pump before either block is in place. These are test results I would like to have a hand at myself :).
:rofl: It's manufacturer showdown time :)
Koolance in this thread pitting against Swiftech, EK in another swinging at Aquacomputers :D :D
Nice, we like healthy competition of this kind!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvufFwdqMzgQuote:
Originally Posted by Zehnsucht
:rofl::ROTF:
Lol pitted against eachother? I'd prefer not that kind of terminology :p:. Competition is healthy ;)
These are the tests that help us improve our blocks. What I want is verification of the results and identification of all the variables and their values. Bowed blocks and micro-grid arrays can be pretty complex, as both Gabe and Stephan know, in terms of "best mount, lowest temperatures".
What is most important in my opinion is that the top waterblock manufacturer's are constantly striving to improve their blocks. One day one is on top and the next day another. This is healthy competition and will advance the design and performance so that the end users are the winners. :clap:
I would in a heartbeat if I didn't have these pesky bills to pay... and a child to raise... and a wife to.. attempt to keep happy :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoffey
I miss Martin's Testing.
I'm sorry if I offended you, it was certainly not my intention. What I mean is when you ask for numbers like that, you want to do similar measurements on your own, because you want to defend your product :) It's nice, then we can see both sides doing measurements.Quote:
Originally Posted by [Koolance] Dean
:toast:
:up: :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zehnsucht
I would like to get into testing too since it seems quite interesting. However, aside from the money issue, or should I say lack of money issue, I have no place to set up. I usually end up tearing apart my rig whenever I upgrade on the dining room table as it is (depending on the outside temperature in my workshop-small kerosene heater only), so I don't think my wife would be too happy fighting for a corner to eat on while the table stays full of watercooling stuff. :down:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth42o
+1. Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Flight
you guys know skinnee read this thread and went OH BANANAS!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth42o
u guys are scaring all our testers.
and give up on martin... seriously, the guy did more then enough for us.
Its gonna be a while b4 he gets bored again. And when he does, he knows i have a boat load of stuff for him to play with.
I think what most of us miss will be his unbiased testing. There are very few "straightshooters" on these boards when it comes to testing. Quite frankly, I won't trust anyone other than Nikhsub1, Petra, Martin (in that order), when it comes to testing. Too many people have their own "preferences" on these boards when it comes towards testing. It may not be apparent, but by reading their posts, you can notice the bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
It's not easy to do these tests. I appreciate anyone that does them. However, it'll take time and a lot of unbiased testing before many of us will elevate a tester's results to command the respect of the three I mentioned above. I think that's why so many of us miss the testing that the three above do. Losing one of those three is a big loss to the community. =P
Hopefully Skinnee can adopt a similar methodology and have a similar unbiased approach.
Not at all. I'd like to know beyond a doubt which one is best under which conditions. That is what people here don't seem to grasp.Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer265
Under the single set of conditions set by Gabe the GTZ performed better by 1.5c.
How might the two blocks perform if the pump flow rate was increased by 50% on the same exact setup? The fact that those tests were not performed, and especially knowing that one block is designed in a specific fashion as to require high pump flow, I call bs on this test as meaningful overall.
Submit the same tests under varying flow rates and I'll say good job and thanks for the unbiased test results.
In this I am for once in full agreement with you Ranker. While I don't really know the three, and yes I don't frequent these boards enough to have the status to be taken seriously (and I'm a bit overly passionate as stated before) I can't argue with your logic here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranker
^ i do understand what your looking for...you want a full range of tests to see which performs best where..imo tho..if u like KL and theres only 1.5c difference go for them...neither block is bad imo however flow rate difference is very scary for a multiple blocks in a loop..id want to see a video card added with each and see the difference..but its hard to do things like this for everyones setup..its asking a lot from someone to do this type of testing since good testing takes a LOT of time..
so yea you could probably piece together a kit where the KL would win...maybe even 100 different kits ...but at the same time you could do the same with the swiftech...
however what you should do is try to gain as much info about the piece ur using ..and with the tests performed i think you can gain a lot about both blocks and use that to your advantage when piece together your loop..
the difference of 1.5c isnt much imo and probably wouldnt gain you any higher of an overclock..so go for whatever you like best..which in your case is KL..
and get over who the "king" is..it doesnt last long..
Don't say that...we don't want my wife to read your post and try to invade the room I have. My bench/lab is a 10'x14' room in my basement which is temperature controlled on a different zone from the other rooms in the basement. I am installing countertops around the whole room to give me more sufarce area for test fixtures and concurrent tests. My area for taking photos spills over into the basement living room because the two light tents I have are larger than I can fit in the lab.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoffey
But seriously, don't say that, she might be looking over my shoulder. And don't tell her testing isn't expensive either, she'll want her paws on my stashed testing funds. :p:
I understand you do not know me from a hill of beans, so I respect your right to withhold judgement on me as a tester, my test reports and any biases you feel I might bring to the table. This might be a wasted attempt, but I will say it none the less...I am completely independent from any vendor, manufacturer or organization. I do not have any sponsorships or hidden agenda. What I am looking to accomplish in testing is to give back more than what I have received from the community and other testers like Martin. I am a firm beleiver in Karma, and this is my way of keeping things right.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranker
If I have or show any sort of bias towards one particular company, my credibility as a tester and valued source of information is over. All of that hard work, time and effort is lost because I chose to have a bias in my testing. That is not to say I don't make predictions before I sit down for a test run, that is part of science in forming a hypothesis. A ritual in my testing is going back over the captured data and analyzing why my hypothesis was correct or incorrect. The biggest thing for me is learning, I always want to be learning something or I get bored.
I fully document my test equipment and methodology, I have nothing to hide or reason to withhold information. If there is ever a piece of data people want to see, I will gladly present that information. If community members want additional tests run, I do everything I can to facilitate those tests. I leaned heavily on Martin as I was dipping my toes into the test pool, and he kindly mentored me, answered goof ball questions and provided me with some critical tools to be able to test properly. If I test with a bias or favortism to a certain company, I throw away all of his time, effort and earned respect and more importantly lose the respect of the LC community.
I rambling here...but I would be glad to continue this conversation if needed.
I look forward to earning your respect and the respect of the Liquid Cooling community by my tests and my honesty.
Gabe and Stephans tests are professional lab grade tests. They have an environmental chamber, water chillers, the works. I am actually quite envious of the setup, and what they have for testing is what I am striving to have in my lab. Yes, I have rotameters, check valves, pumps, temperature sensors, large reservoirs and so on, but I can guarantee the test area used by Gabe and Stephan is first class, mine would be more like business class compared to first class. I do have most of the professional equipment, so coach didn't seem right. There is at least one community members here on XS who has been to my home several times and been in the lab while I was performing tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Reading some of the posts in this thread really made me worried that I am investing all of this time and fistfuls of money just for people of this community to ignore the test reports, time, learning and effort that goes into testing a particular piece of gear. I do see the independent tester and real world tests as a valuable and vital piece to the Liquid Cooling community, if I did not, I never would have taken on this endeavour.
The tests I and other community testers perform on the parts we purchase, vendor/manufacturer supplied and community member supplied samples are all fueled by what you the community wants tested and whats to see the performance results of, I would have never tested D5 tops had there not been the interest of the community.
I truly hope that the Liquid Cooling community still sees a place for and values indepedent testers. If there is anything we need more of, it would be more people testing and learning the right steps to take in performing tests with the equipment you have. With that comes the sharing of knowledge and information gained through the process. We are already doing this on a regular basis by recommending parts and debating products.
Sorry for getting a bit long winded here, I tend to stay out of the heated discussion and just be a witness. I like to stand back and take in anything I can from the discussions rather than stick my two cents in the middle of them. However, I was reading so many mixed messages I felt I had to post for some clarification.
Good words skinnee :) Best of luck to you.
Agreed, I would also like to see some tests on the new Phenom's as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Skinnee, I can't wait to start seeing you tests. You like Martin, don't have an agenda other than to further help the water cooling community. This is one reason I trusted Hondacity's results, he has no sponsorships and isn't a manufacture, so his only agenda is to find the facts. Now as some have pointed out, I am going back and put my tin foil hat back on and continue to watch the lemmings . :D
I agree, if the block doesn't perform better with more flow/pressure then it is an issue considering how restrictive it is. I share the same concern, hence my desire to make sure we know that "even with" the increased restriction the block offeres something to make it worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DementeD
Swiftech's pump is uber powerful, think RD-30 or so. I am assuming with the flow rates Gabe posted that his pump was MAXED out. You do realize that to get 50% more flow you would need 2.5 RD-30's? Let me ask you, who will run that much pump? What purpose would that much flow serve? If anything feed the blocks about 50% LESS and see the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by santiagodraco
Now onto some meaningful commentary, I have 100% confidence in skinnee... I know he will do a great job, I do believe he will more than fill Martin's shoes. And ranker, thanks for the kind words.
Skinnee is a real professional and a stand up guy. His real life job requires the highest level of professionalism and accuracy. He is a computer junkie like most here and loves the chase for the numbers and reasons why. Skinnee and Martin are two of the same mold, truthful, dedicated and accurate to a fault.
I for one applaud skinnee's dedication to this forum and to the passion that we call watercooling. :clap: :clap:
I think that most of your supporters will be part of the silent majority. They will be the person that reads, understands, is thankful but won't raise hell because there's nothing in their mind to raise hell about. However there will be the small number of people who troll and since they're the most vocal it seems that many others share their opinion. They're the type of person that ignores everything unless it agrees with their bias and won't be convinced not matter who performed the test. Anywhoo, keep up the good work, I'm thankful for the time and effort you put into your testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
Have read this thread with interest. I'm looking forward to skinnee's testing. I'm sure debates will follow once results are in, but we can learn from the discussions as well (even those of us who generally just read these types of threads and stay silent).
I'm totally objective ... but do find some of the criticism aimed at Gabe's testing unwarranted. He said it was an "informal" test. And yes, while I can see where some believe it would be hard for him to be objective, he posts here with his Swiftech affiliation clearly shown. If he wanted to be duplicitous, wouldn't he be posting as Joe Cool or some similar moniker? Anyway ... thanks for the helpful info, Gabe.
Ah I think you took my post the wrong way Skinnee. Basically, there are only a few testers whom I know well enough for me to faithfully believe their tests without much questioning. As you've described above, they've faithfully served the community for an extended period of time without rooting for one company/product or another. Every other person that shows a test, I'll take it with a grain of salt. I won't take it for the gospel truth but rather as a general indicator of what to expect in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
Like I've noted in this thread, I've taken a 1.5 year sabbatical from WC'ing and probably haven't seen your work yet. Since stand up guys like McCoffey (I love you even though I vehemently disagree on the aesthetics issue =P ) /Sig/Naekuh have vouched for you, I see no reason to question your results. However, please understand it takes sometime before I consider you the 4th apostle to join the Books of Nikhsub1, Petra, and Martin. =)
I look forward to seeing your work and appreciate any tests you do for the community!
NP. Like I said, without your tests a few years back, I can only fear the rampant fanboism that would have descended upon these forums without legitimate data to settle the dust. I could always trust you to call a spade a spade and not get caught up with marketing hype, aesthetics, and other unimportant distractions this community often faces.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
If I didn't thank you before, I'll take the time now to thank you once again for all of your contributions to the community.
Anyhow, I hope everyone appreciates the testing that was done here. I think Gabe provided this information in the most tactful way possible. He ran his tests, outlined his methodology, and left the data for us to process. While I believe end users should often include a brief conclusion, I find it much more tactful when the manufacturers leave that part out to avoid the 'MY BLOCK KICKS YOUR BLOCKS ASS" flamebaiting.
All testing and data is what separates this forum from many others I have seen.
It's no joke. People here have fun with this stuff, but they are serious when it comes to what does what, and how it performs. We all know where we are at...that goes without saying. This place has a reputation for being one of the finest watercooling sites ont he planet and it's becasue of these people and their tests. These people have aquired some very expensive equipment, and have spent I don't even wanna think how much time doing these tests, then they have to compile all the data, make it into a formatted piece that we can all read, and post it.
I don't care who does the testing. I trust it unless I was given some reason not to. I take people at their word. The people here that do testing are doing it because they have earned that respect. ALL of them have that respect from me.
I think it is awesome that Gabe posted those results to lend a hand in testing. Not many companies will do that or will just show graphs pulled from their butt's (SilenX :rolleyes:). Any contribution is welcome and as we know we have testers who will validate that information anyway. Gabe has shown to be trustworthy and I personally appreciate the testing done. It's nice to have companies that get involved and listen to make products better and to release new ideas and innovations like the GTZ. Thanks Gabe!:up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
Well, I can appreciate you being humble about your lab environment, but there's a reason manufacturers don't rely on "lab" results for testing the products they product, and that's because the lab doesn't always properly/fully represent the real world. Because of that I'd personally put a lot more stock in your business class test lab than a first class test lab that doesn't truly represent what users have in the field. I've also seen some of your tests, and I think the level of detail and range of tests you perform speak volumes for unbiased testing especially taken in the context of this thread and the proffered test results.
Just curious and anyone one chime in with an answer, but why test it against the Koolance block and not the EK or D-tek blocks or for that matter all of them? Just curious, nothing more, nothing less.
Perhaps because the 350 has been shown to be one of the best on i7? Just a thought...Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
Also in the stickies theres a review of them versus the GTZ. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=198681 Albeit with a C2Q.Quote:
Originally Posted by twwen2
:rofl: mcoffey gave it a 5 dead horses award! Oh man, it's like very thread I click on is hilarious lately. :ROTF:
To be honest I didn't realize that. Then I went over and read Skinee's review of the Koolance top (which reviewed well) and the flow rates at max speed....Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Honestly it looks like I was completely wrong in my assumption here and that Gabe was actually running at a higher pressure than the vast majority of users in the field would ever see.
Frankly I'm a bit embarassed but I'd rather learn the hard way than not learn at all :)
I have the utmost respect for people who can admit when they are wrong, learn from it and move on. I do it all the time. I've been wrong and when I am, I own up to it. Your clout with me just went up a whole lot. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by santiagodraco
Interesting, I was reading another thread and stumbled on something:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=201501
Hellcamino seems to be passionate about his dislike for Swiftech. I now see why he's so adamant about proving Gabe/Swiftech wrong.
Show me where in this thread where I have tried to say Gabe was wrong please. Yes I have certainly had a bad experience with Gabe but I saw no reason to dig it up here. I just don't think much of the test in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranker
Let me say this one more time for the cheap seats....What I personally like to see is real world tests only. The reason behind that is simple...you get to see real world results.
Lemme tell 'ya. I've kinda thought about what this testing entails. For one thing before you start you'd have to get a box full of TIM...no joke. Then, you have to start thinking about the variables and how to isolate all of them. Then after that buy the equipment (which ain't cheap) and set it all up and get it working and checked. The after that you'd have to do "test tests" to make sure the tests made sense...in other words "trials". Then after that you have to do all of those blocks with multiple mounts (so carefully) which would be a marathon session all the while watching ambients and trying to control variables while juggling the computer and making sure the test is going like it's supposed to and the software is working. Then, after all of the tests are done, go back and recheck the equipment and make sure something did not skew the results. Then compile all the data, look it over, and start writing, proof read, and post it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoffey
Whew! I know I didn't cover half of it either. It ain't that simple with stuff like this until you actually do it. I've done many tests before on rocket motors, and it is by no means easy. Any kind of testing like this takes hours, days and sometimes weeks to do.
Heck I spent months one time just doing small scale tests for a large rocket firing. The actual firing was awesome, but it lasted 10 seconds. Oh it was a rush, but you can pour work into testing stuff.
It looks easy when these reviews and tests come out, but it ain't easy at all. That doesn't begin to fully describe it I know.
And here lies my disagreement with you. It is always best to ISOLATE the part that you are testing, remove as many variables as possible. You say just the opposite, you would like testing done with all the variables in the world. This makes for bad data. Ever heard of the word 'GIGO'?Quote:
Originally Posted by hellcamino
Yeah I'm familiar with the term garbage in garbage out.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
I really do understand the idea behind isolated testing but I feel end users would be better served by real world testing. As it sounds that Gabe has a very elaborate lab it just doesn't sound too difficult to me to use standard water cooling gear for at least a secondary test. I would think it would even be in Gabe's interest to do so!
By standard gear in Gabe's case I mean using a mcp355, mcres, GTZ and an MCR320. I would think it would be a real selling point for him (and useful info for everyone) to run a test (in this case) with both blocks then add an MCW30 to the nb and run it again. I am betting that it would just about be a toss-up on the first test and the GTZ would slaughter the koolance block in the second. As many people like to run cpu-nb loops I would think that would be one hell of a demonstrative test in his favor and untainted.
Would that not make for a solid test for you as well?
Hellcamino.... you made your point about wanting more tests. Thats fine. Gabe has eyes and he'll read them and maybe he might. Maybe he won't. The tests done are exactly what some of us wanted, so that we isolated the block. Its one thing to say you want more tests, its another to discredit the ones done. Any more *attempting* discrediting and we'll consider it trolling.
Been uber busy all week working on major project, and I am shocked to see this thread reached 7 pages already.
Still working hard, and too busy to respond individually, it would take hours! Here is some additional info.
Stephen told me that he ran the chiller pump on full because he noticed how restrictive the 350 was, and he wanted to keep his measurements out of the asymptotic area of the curve (0-0.5 GPM - see for example http://www.swiftech.com/assets/image...e-TR_VS_FR.PNG). He likes to take his temp measurements in the "flat" area.
For comparative testing, it is not practical to try to reproduce a user environment with the chiller, because the PQ curve of our pump is too different from that of commonly used pumps (655, 350's etc). Knowing that we need to eliminate the single biggest variable by keeping the coolant temp constant, one needs to understand that if we wanted to mimic a user setup fairly in a comparative test, we'd have to measure the flow with an arbitrarily chosen loop setup, then disassemble the block, and match the flow on the chiller, then do that again for another block, then adjust the chiller pump again, etc.. it's simply too time consuming.
Absolutely. I'm gonna be one pissed off individual if this forum gets overrun by garbage tests, and the people that do real scientiffic method testing stop posting these tests.
Tests with all kinds of variables thrown in there are meaningless. For the folks who do these tests, please continue, and ignore the naysayers. Don't let them win and destroy this forum. I've seen some of the most talented folks just get to the point of not caring anymore, and I get furious when I see that. What can we do to stop this? That information is too valuable to let it slip away because of naysayers and trolling. Name it.
I don't wanna see these guys that have worked their tails off to build these labs and that do these tests get ran off by this trolling. Let me know what I can do...just name it, and I'll do it.
see http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=162Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
see http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=162 and take a look at the example of curve you will understand quickly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellepel
please read: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=162 it explains how difficult what you are asking for is.Quote:
Originally Posted by santiagodraco
if you set the flow rate of GTZ to 1GPM, and use the chiller's pump at same setting to test the 350, flow will be higher in the 350 due to chiller's pump PQ. please read: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=162 it explains how time consumming it would be to do that fairly in the context of regular W/C pumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa
too bad you are in MN Skinnee, We'd be delighted to have you visit our lab.
Thanks gabe! I will take you up on that lab visit when I am out in CA. I have a feeling that before this time next year I will over on the west coast for a few days.
Well, then eliminate the chiller all together and use a radiator. I'm sure your lab has a good constant room temperature.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
lols, it never ends, huh?
Easy killers!
In this test the only variable is the CPU block.
Restriction difference for just about any type of pump used
should be proportional.
Let me ask the question a different way (and I may be misunderstanding Gabe's reply (the one he's linked).
It seems that by using the chiller certain testing peculiarities are introduced that would make the use of a "normal" pump inappropriate in some way (correct Gabe?). If that is the case, and the use of the chiller is to eliminate the variable of room temperature (another assumption on my part) then if we assume the room temperature is very constant (maybe not) wouldn't the use of a radiator eliminate that and allow the use of a readily available pump?
I guess what I'm getting at is the good old real world test scenario. All roads seem to lead back to the beginning :)
But let me say this. I'm not saying Gabe's tests don't have merit (and yes I am very aware of what the scientific method is and variables) but... I just can't seem to get it out of my mind that the lab you use Gabe seems to introduce it's own set of variables that might not be representative. Maybe I'm completely off base, and I can't quantify them well, it's just a feeling (and yeah feelings aren't very scientific :) )
Any sort of extended testing will dump heat into the room, which will slowly raise the ambient temperature. It's almost impossible to avoid this - if you look at some of Martin's testing outlines, you'll notice that he actually used an AC unit to keep ambients steady, but even his testing had an ambient range of several degrees, courtesy of the AC kicking on and off. Really, what a chiller does is exactly what the AC would do under ideal circumstances, and the chiller can do it without having to worry about variables such as air circulation in the room, or what path the radiator exhaust takes.
I would second Niksub1's suggestion (originally Cathar's idea) in plotting c/w relative to "Hydraulic Pumping Power". This would be a easy way to completely eliminate the pumping power variable as you would clearly see the relative performance differences between both blocks and they wouldn't be a great representation of performance. C/w vs Flow rate skews the results to make more restrictive blocks appear better, however if you use hydraulic horsepower it's comparing a straight thermal performance relative to pumping power.
Thanks for testing, very nice:up:
I removed 3 posts that were made after my last post. If you don't understand why the test was done with a temp controlling chiller you don't belong in the thread and are trolling. Anymore trolling will get infractions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
But if you got the pressure drop over the block you could match that with the formula:
dP=rkQ^2 => k=dP/(rQ^2) ,(k=l/2) r=density of water Q=flow.
you could plot that into a PQ chart of a "regular" pump and figure out the flow through it (without tubes and tubes have low k). K is the same with any pump assuming non-laminar flow.
Then alot of these discussions wouldnt be necessary.
The testing by itself is very good.
Even with a very well controlled air conditioning system you have 1-1.5F difference in the room temperature if not larger swings. Since our radiators rely on the room temperature for their heat transfer the differences between test can vary substantially.Quote:
Originally Posted by santiagodraco
But with a chiller holding the water temps to tenths of a degree you have the best constant between test. (This statement is not directed at any one person) Questioning to understand someone's test results is good for learning but questioning someone's methods unless you are more qualified to do the testing is just foolish.
If this kind of thread craping continues manufactures and independent testers will not want to share their results, who would. To spend the kind of time and money to do valid testing to only have unqualified people call them everything from a liar to a fool is not what this forum was built on. FUGGER pays large sums of money to keep this forum running so all of us have a place to share our passions and ideas so lets bring XtremeSystems back to the fair and balanced forum it is known for. just my $.015
riptide already said it wasn't gonna continue, and I am glad. Sig, that last paragraph you wrote could not have been written any better. It ought to be put into it's own locked sticky at the top of this forum.
Man, I've been to other forums, and some of the stuff I read there had me believing some very bad things. Things which I later learned on here were completely false and inaccurate. That is why I registered here in the beginning and is why I am here now. These scientiffic tests are what separates the fact from fiction. If we started arbitarily thorwing in just anything into the mix we'd have contradictory results and tests and it would be a mess.