I just shook my head...we are still trying to track down an author of an article in there most recent issue..or last months.that wrote an article about water cooling.
Printable View
I just shook my head...we are still trying to track down an author of an article in there most recent issue..or last months.that wrote an article about water cooling.
Well, once I get everything tested, I'll register and post my results there...I could care less if they ban me for posting a test report. :D
Testing is in progress!
I am going to take multiple runs of distilled and nanofluid using the same CPU block mount. This way I keep as many things constant as possible.
good work, Skinnee...ever hear of the band 2SkinneeJs?..check them out
littleowl?..bob?..c'mon
it will be interesting to see if Skinnee gets even something similar to what you had initially found.
I saw the Js so many times back in SC..they just played here in DC a month ago...I think they did a short re-union tour.
Dual Core tests complete. Crunching the numbers and doing the write-up...Dual Core results soon.
Well, here is the shortened version. I need to take some photos for the full review and test report that I'll post in the LC section here and a few other forums. But here are the details. Keep in mind this is only a dual core, I will be adding a Quad to the test bench and running the tests again to track a much higher heat load.
Test Specifications are detailed with each of the data tables and graphs. Each and all tests was performed using Prime95 version 25.7 using In-place large FFTs for a 15 minute warm-up period with a logged test cycle of 60 minutes following the warm-up period. Ambient temps are averaged between two different sensors. After each test a 30 minute idle period was observed before starting the next test.
High Flow: Very close, averaged temps are 0.35ºC and 0.33ºC difference for a 60 minute load cycle with Nanofluid having a 1ºC advantage on max core temps for the test cycle.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/Nanofluid...h-highflow.png
Medium Flow: Medium flow produced strikingly similar results to High flow, Nanofluid has a lower Max Core Temp by 1ºC, and the difference between average temps shrinks to 0.24ºC and 0.25ºC. At this point its looking like a real duel.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/Nanofluid...mediumflow.png
Low Flow: High heat loads is where the Nanofluid really starts to outpace Distilled. Nanofluid still grabbed the lower Max temp by 1ºC, but the average temps were what really stood out, Nanofluid has a 1.39ºC and 1.42ºC advantage in average temp and a 2ºC minimum temp advantage.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/Nanofluid...ph-lowflow.png
The low flow tests really makes me eager to put the fluid through a much longer and more rigorous set of test runs with a Quad due to the heat load being higher, I have a feeling this is where Nanofluid will pull away from Distilled. I also plan on doing multiple runs of the same test settings with a quad, this will allow me to see if there is any major deviation from run to run for the same test.
A big thanks to relttem and his business partner for supplying the Nanofluid, was a pleasure to test your product on this first run and will be just as enjoyable for the quad runs! Also, thanks to littleowl and Hicks for pressuring relttem into involving me in the test. :D
Since you guys get the first view of the test results and the way I am presenting the data, let me know if this form of presenting the data works or needs changing. Also, any feedback is greatly appreciated.
wow! very interesting results for 'first run' :)
I too would be interested in seeing a longer test period for the low-flo test.. & a quad as well :up:
thank u muchly for time & effort! :toast:
edit: btw the graph & results etc are easy to read & legible - good stuff! :up:
Great work Skinnee. I find it quite interesting how much flow didn't matter in your tests. This needs to be investigated further. ;)
The CrystalFontz really helps monitoring, and with great consistency of ambiants. I'm impressed.
good work. I was wondering if you were able to overclock at all? I see you mentioned 'high' heat loads, but I am not sure what that means. And, do you know what your flow rates were?
We think the nanofluids will really come into play when the CPU (or whatever you are keeping cool) begins to get hot - as is the case with overclocking. The nanofluid will be able to remove more heat than the H2O. Therefore, as littleowl saw, the temperature of whatever you are overclocking will be able to remain cooler for a longer amount of time and let you overclock it more. What do you think your next steps/tests will be?
Thanks again, Skinnee..it looks good. I am will be waiting to see more results.
Bob - your turn.
OH I want to do some more testing but I cant get things moved around here :(
Good testing brother!! :up: Keep up the great work & Im lookn forward to the quad tests.:yepp:
Nice Work Skinnee. If indeed your set up was kept consistent it indicates that there is something (finally) with a better coeffiecient than distilled water...which is surprising.
I also would like to see some OC. :D
Great stuff Skinnee. Waiting for Quad runs. :D
Thanks! :up:
A quad will add more heat to the loop versus a dual core at the same Vcore...more cores = more heat.
I went straight to OC'd on the E8400, 4.275GHz at 1.52 Vcore.
I did not have a flowmeter in the loop, that should be arriving any day now. I will included measured flow rate in the Quad test.
Yup, the max core temp on the nanofluid was a lower, I really need to get a quad in my test bench and run the tests again. This time I will do multiple runs (3 I think) of the same test and record the standard deviation among the tests. With equating the standard deviation I will be able to see just how consistent my tests were.
First, I need to round up some coin and buy a Quad for my test bench, but once that is covered I will be doing a Mini CPU block roundup, and will do some more distilled vs. nanofluid tests using a different block, one that doesn't have the performance of a Fuzion. This should also increase the temps and show a bigger difference in the numbers...thats my theory anyway. :D
Thank you! :up:
Thanks! I tried to keep as many things constant as possible, no block re-mounts, no settings adjustments, nothing. I kept everything constant except for the fluid in the loop.
Everyone, thanks for the feedback and kind words, makes the testing worth it knowing you all got some information out of it!
I need a quad for the bench...gonna have to get a sugar momma on the side. ;)
hey you find that sugar momma make shore you send her my way also!!! :D
Skinnee, can you do some bench marking?
I ran a bunch of standard benchmarking programs to push the chip a little and compare results. Another thing, if you can manage, would be see how high you can overclock with the nanofluid v's the H20 - as long as you feel safe doing it. I do it with my AMD chip all the time
Yup, I need some more HWBot points anyhow, plus I need to learn more on this board...I'm a noob on DFI boards.
I thought of another thing that would be nice to see: a simple block diagram of the test rig and where the temps are being measured. I want to crunch some heat transfer numbers, but I need a set up to get a rough idea of what is going on. And, like I mentioned earlier, flow rates (even estimates) and tube size.
thanks
Well...I've been doing some bench runs. I have to say, this is completely non-repeatable tests and I cannot even compare the fluid to distilled, the order of the bench apps run and crashes and everything else cannot be exactly reproduced for comparison. I won't put out numbers like that...its completely against my test methodology.
Attached is a pic of the test loop. Loop order is as follows.
Rad Oulet -> CPU Block -> Res -> Pump -> Rad Inlet
I do not have water temp sensors or a flow meter presently...flow meter should be here Monday. All of my settings and equipment were on the header of each graph, but temp sensors are on each rad fan for intake and exhaust of the rad fans. I will be able to give you exact flow numbers once I get the flow meter on Monday.
Soon to be replaced with a GTX480? :up: :p:
Looking good.
Makes me want to finish getting parts for my loop lol
I had to rob a pump from my main rig for the test bench. Replacement and some additional goodies are coming soon...funds are a little tighter these days than I would like.
Hey bud, does this nano-fluid have a listed freeze point? Any chance of using it in sub-zero environment like a chiller?
thanks for the loop pic. Are you using standard thermocouples to read the temps of the radiator? That is what they look like. IF you are brave enough, this is something I would consider doing. You really don't need all of those inlet and outlet air-temps of all three radiators. Unless you have three separate radiators, but it looks like one. If it is three different radiators and they are the same type they should each be removing the same amount of heat anyway. Also, the intake air temp that the fans are going to be blowing is going to be the same - which yours are (within error of thermocouples). So, what I would do, if you have the flexible thermocouples, would be to disconnect the tubing at the inlet and outlet of the radiator, feed a thermocouple into the tubing, and then put it back on the radiator. That way you are reading the liquid temp coming into and leaving the radiator. I would do the same thing at the CPU block too. You might have to get some hose clamps or RTV sealant. You can still take apart the system with either.
relttem it is one single radiator. I use the same one he is running on my main rig.
Correct, one Rad. The sensors on Rad intake and exhaust are Maxim DS18B20 digital temp sensors (thermocouples from what I can tell). However, I want to have a sensor for each and use averaging across the sensors to ensure that my DeltaT is accurate. The more sensors you have the better IMO. This is the same thing I do for ambient temps, 2 or more sensors averaged.
The water sensors will be added along with a rotameter this next week, I have a mini CPU block round up starting, then immediately after that a D5 pump top shootout.
there is a link to a good article at the end of the thread
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=202444&page=2
OK, finally got to testing last night. Took my main rig down for maintenance. It is a QX6700, stepping B3, running at 3.15 gig. It is on an eVGA 680i mobo with an 8800GTX vid card. Testing took place on my garage bench.
Loop is;
MCR320 Rad>MicroRes>DDC2 pump w/ Petra top>Fuzion V1 CPU block>MCW60 GPU block>DD Maze4 SPP (aka NB) block>Rad.
Flow rate, measured when the loop was first put together, is 2.0 GPM.
Machine front view, after cleaning out dust bunnies, with the original water in it. This loop has about 2 ounces of petosin in it and about 6 drops of PTNuke. The rest is distilled water.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ntoriginal.jpg
Antec 900 case, radiator/pump/res rigged up on a stand external to the machine. (Better to get the heat out of the case in my view. Also the place this goes wouldn't allow a full tower anyway.)
Machine back view with original water and the bottle of nanofluid on the bench.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ckoriginal.jpg
Note the Fluke meter. I'm using the K type probe it has stuck into the middle rad fan to measure ambient into the rad. There is also a small thermometer on the bench top, where the tubes loop out of the machine.
Here's the after shot. This was after completely draining and filling with nanofluid. I used the nanofluid just as it came, with nothing else added.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...knanofluid.jpg
Material notes. The stuff smells like a cross between latex paint and some sort of perfumey stuff to me. Taste test.........whoa, wait a minute, I don't know what's in here.:eek:.....taste test not performed....:rofl:
I did conduct a drying test to see what happens if it is allowed to dry on the bottom dishout of an aluminum beer can. It dried like a watered down coat of latex paint....I thought this might not be good, but found that it wiped right off with a damp rag.
After sitting for about a month to perform this test, (sorry it took so long...) I noted that the fluid was more opaque on the bottom than the top of the bottle, implying some settling. There was no layer of sediment on the bottom, so it stayed in suspension. This is good. I thoroughly shook it up before putting it in the loop.
OK, to the nuts and bolts. Each iteration was allowed to run undisturbed for at least 30 minutes or longer to achieve some equilibrium.
Original water results.
Water Idle Test
Ambient on Fluke; 24C
Ambient on desktop; 25C
Coretemp @ idle; 44,42,44,38C
Water Load Test
Ambient on Fluke; 25C
Ambient on desktop; 24C
Coretemp @ load; 60,58,61,57C
Nanofluid Idle Test
Ambient on Fluke; 25C
Ambient on desktop; 25C
Coretemp @ idle; 45,45,43,40C
Nanofluid Load Test
Ambient on Fluke; 25C
Ambient on desktop; 25C
Coretemp @ load; 60,60,58,56C
Overnight Nanofluid Load Test
Ambient on Fluke; 22C
Ambient on desktop; 22C
Coretemp @ load; 57,57,55,52C
Averaging the ambients, then averaging across the cores, then adjusting for ambient differences, It would appear that nanofluid turned in about .75C worse at idle, but 1C BETTER at load.
Anything else you would like me to try while I still have the nanofluid in the loop?
Regards,
Bob
nice..that is over a 3C (almost 4) difference at load on average(comparing the overnite nanofluid to the water load)..not taking into account the ambient temps. I spoke with Bob and he said he would try to get around to some stringent overclocking tests for me. That should be interesting since we think this is where the nanofluid will really come into play.
The ambients count. With those factored in, it's nearly a wash at the single OC data point I tried. However, I apparently missed the bigger point of the test. That is the possibility that the nanofluid will allow a higher clock than water. If so, then it is certainly of value to test for this. I may get more out of the mass-cooled portion of the farm with this stuff...:up:
I am no where near the max clock this rig can run at. The 3.15 is just my 24/7 super stable main rig number.
I'll be doing some more tests looking for where my max stable clocks occur with the nanofluid vs regular distilled water. Reltem, YGPM on some possible further instrumentation I could do. We might get those loop water temps too.
Stay tuned, this will take me a few days to work this in between the day job tasks.
Bob
Great info Bob! Thanks for your hard work!!!!!!!! :up:
Full Dual Core write-up over here -> Linky
Man, I have a good one for you guys. Weird, but good. :eek:
In setting up to do the test suite described above, I installed T type thermocouples in my Res and in the T-line I use to drain the machine. This was to give the inlet and outlet temp of my rad, or looking the other way, providing the heat dump of the full loop. The T line thermocouple was sealed into the tube using a hose clamp and a rubber cork. It was not leaking around the wire, so all was good, right?
Later in the evening, I ran a test point at my current clock. I noticed the display on my omega meter was getting flakey. Is was half gone. Oh oh, WTF!!:mad:
I took the thing apart and what do I find? Nanofluid inside the meter!! How did that get there? I thought maybe I splashed some on the meter when I was putting the lines in the rig. OK, no problem, cleaned it up and thankfully the meter was OK. I plugged everything back in and continued. Came back in about an hour. SAME THING!! Meter had Nanofluid in it!!! On careful inspection, I found that nanofluid was being forced up the inside covering of the thermocouple wire!! Not a lot, since it's so tiny, but enough to potentially mess up my meter. :shrug:
So, I'm down for a few in order to epoxy the ends of the tcouple lines to prevent them from pumping out any more nanofluid!! :p:
I would have never caught this if it wasn't for nanofluid's white color. You can see the wire is milky colored compared to the res tcouple. The Res tcouple was not pumping any out since the res is open to air pressure. The lower rad t-line was sure going to town though!!:rofl::shrug::rofl::yepp:
What a weird one. Something to watch out on for those sticking thermocouples in pressurized systems!! :up:
Bob
I started working on the B3 today and have ran into several snags :(
I will post my testing results for what I have so far but as for my antifreeze test to see the temp differance between nano and it well I can stiff give #'s but lots of math will have to happen to figure it out. :( my radiator sprang a leak and I have no other way to fix it and keep the same mount.
I will be putting regular 20% antifreeze and steam distilled water on it but it will be in a 120.3 and a different water block.
if you have a smaller radiator you should be ok with that. The nanofluid should defeat the necessity of the giant radiator.
well I am going to make the loop I hope tomorrow but don't think I will have time till friday :(
That also puts me down a quad crunching :mad:
you might just have to start over..I promise you wouldn't be the first person to have to do that..:)
Nice work Bob! You're getting nearly the same margin on the results as I am. Good to see our test data is very close.
in order to start over I may end up needing you to send me just a little more fluid because of the 120.3 taking a good bit more then the 120.2 as well as a much longer loop.
@ Bob
Thanks for the pics! you helped me salve my problem on how I was going to mount this radiator for my wifes B3. :) I am going to (so to speak) take your idea. :D
I know I don't have the 20% antifreeze/distilled water to compare to but I thought I would share what I did log so far.
I started out with room temp at 19.4c on stock air cooler using ICD7 TIM.
My core temps are all loaded with boinc.
core0: 62
core1: 62
core2: 59
core3: 61
I changed out the stock heat sink for an old maze4 with my home made hold down. my cores were
core0: 42
core1: 45
core2: 38
core3: 42
That was all done at sock speed. on a Q6600 B3
So I oced the chip to 3.12
My room temp went up to 21.1
My core temps were
core0: 54
core1: 55
core2: 49
core3: 50
I didn't make it to the water testing because my rad sprang a leak so now I will have to wait and maybe test again after I get the quad up the way I wanted it in the first place. :)
The next set of testing will be with a 120.3 rad and a 6002 water block and my home made hold down for it.
I was using coretemp 0.97.1 to get my readings on temps.
Take away!! I figure it's best to get any heat out of the case I can, and let the fans handle the rest that's left in the case. It really makes no sense to me to try to stuff a rad in a hot case. But that's just me....:rolleyes: This solution worked for me with the short mid-tower case I was limited to, in order to stuff it under the desk.
@ reltemp, I'm proceeding to collect the detailed data we talked about. So far, so good. (It quit peeing nanofluid out from the lower thermocouple wire..:rofl:) I'm allowing at least a few hours between setting a data point and taking measurements. I figure that should be Plenty of time for the thing to settle into it's final thermal equilibrium.
Bob
Where can I get some of this stuff?
Let's find out if it's a product first.......Wait for some solid test results here....
I just cross posted on the liquid section. Lot's of kids seem to have some stuff to say over there....:eek: Hope I handled it right....
Bob
yeah they did that to me over there also. :) I hope you guys have fun with the water guys because they are all so worried about thermal conductive particles. :rofl:
Again Thank you Bob for the great idea! I was going to make something like you did out of wood but I really didn't like the way I thought it would look. Well with your pics and idea I got the stuff and did this :D
Would you do me just a small favor...put a wine cork in that T-line, rinse it in distilled first though. You're probably fine, but I'm just paranoid from all those years without my tin foil hat allowing the government to read my mind. :D
Looks like that should work. Welcome to the external rad club! :up:
A suggestion you may want to use is to mount the rad more toward the middle of the bottom struts. That way, it doesn't want to tend to tip forward. If you look at my pic again, you'll see it is what is known as "cantilevered". It's pretty stable this way. From your pic, what I'm suggesting is to remount it about 6-10 holes to the left, so some of the bottom strut sticks out the left side. You wouldn't have to change any strut lengths or remount the rad. Just move the whole works to the right on the bottom struts.
What probably can't be seen in my pic is the cheapo stick-on rubber feet on the bottom. That way, it stays put on my lower comp desk shelf and doesn't scratch it. :up:
You gotta love the "post-modern industrial" look this gives the machine...:clap::D
(The cork may not be a bad idea also......now where's my tin foil hat. I had it here somewhere....dang aliens probably stole it again....:rofl:)
There are some practical advantages to this approach. The first is that it gets the heat out of the case. A second advantage is that it seems to be easier to completely drain the loop. I find I just put my machine on the bench, then hold the rad assembly over the edge of the bench so it's lower than the machine. Then open her up and drain away. No need to do much lifting and twisting of the entire machine to get the last bit out. I only have to rock the machine over to the side a little to get the water out from between my CPU and NB blocks.
Regards,
Bob
EDIT: back OT, I just finished a loaded 8 hour run at 3.45g on this old B3 quad, with the nanofluid. I have to check my records, but I think this might be a new high for this machine....Still testing points.
LOL don't worry I am going to pick up a fill port and mount it to make my life easier. :)
Yeah bob I seen yours was in the middle and I was going to do it that way but then I decide I wanted to put a board in for the pump to sit on. be leave it or not, This really is stable. I also plan on making another one for the barn and it will have to be in the middle as to be sure not to tip.
Oh and yeah I know what cantilevered is ;) just go look at a teater todder (sp) :rofl: I used to love them when I was a kid. but now days they are hard to find LOL.
here is a couple pics for you relttem. the bottle on the right you sent me and the one on the left is what came out of my test loop that I ended up springing a leak in after I had it all drained and was feeling it back up.
you can tell how much steamed distilled water I added to the fluid.
you have plenty left...what I would do it dump both into one container and use that. right now it looks about a 20% mix of H2O..if you mix them that will drop to about a 10%.
Hopefully, 123Bob and Skinnee might chime in with some more news.
I will soon. I'm halfway through testing. I'm about to fill, flush, and drain and start the pure distilled tests. It might be thursday night until I finish and post up. Got a business trip this week.
ok I will mix it together and work in it here soon. :)
I moved to 3.6 in order to get rock stable. Had occasional reset and/or lockups at the 3.65 and 3.7 point. I let it 3.6 run for about ten hours without issue, so I'm calling that my max stable. (All points loaded with BOINC)
We'll see if water can achieve this same stability over the next round of tests. My notes from when I tried this before says it should quit around 3.4, but who knows. I suppose I'll go right for 3.6 and can let you know tomorrow if it can do it.
We are thinking about sending out one more sample for testing, but we want someone to run it thru an off-the-shelf WC system cooling a quad. If anyone on here has something like that send me a PM and let me know about your set-up. A few things need to be monitored (temps etc). I go thru them in the order received - if I receive any...:)
thanks.
OK, my results are in. I'm finally getting around to post them up. The purpose of this test was to determine if a higher max loaded stable Boinc clock could be acheived on the nanofluid vs plain distilled water.
In a nutshell, I was able to achieve the same max stable BOINC loaded clock on pure distilled water, as the nanofluid. The temps may be of some interest though so I'll post up the details.
Rig Details;
It is a QX6700, stepping B3, running at 3.15 gig. It is on an eVGA 680i mobo with an 8800GTX vid card. Testing took place on my garage bench.
Loop detail: Loop is; Fuzion V1 block > DD 680i NB block > Swiftech MCW60 block on 8800GTX > Swiftech triple Rad > Swiftech Res > DDC with Petra top Pump > to Fuzion.
Antec 900 case, radiator/pump/res rigged up on a stand external to the machine. (Better to get the heat out of the case in my view. Also the place this goes wouldn't allow a full tower anyway.)
Test setup;
Picture first. This was with the pure distilled water in the rig and is the setup used throughout the entire test suite.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...istoverall.jpg
This shows the overall instrumentation. The fluke handheld on the left side of the bench is being used to measure the ambient into the middle fan of the rad. It is a K type thermocouple. The omega meter next to it is measuring the inlet and outlet sides of the rad. This has matched T type thermocouples inserted in the water.
The little cheapo thermometer on the bench is being used to provide another ambient point, although I don't think this is a very useful point. It can vary widely from the fluke depending on the actual bench top temp.
Note where the res is. The "T2" probe is stuck in here, measuring the outlet of the rad.
The "T1" probe is stuck in the inlet side of the rad down below and is shoved up the drain hose, all the way into the flow to the rad.
Here is the placement of the tcouple in the res.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...t/T2radout.jpg
The next pic shows the placement of the "T1" tcouple in the lower rad hose. This is the inlet side to the rad.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...radinprobe.jpg
Here is the raw data.....
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...anoresults.jpg
The bottom line for me is that I can achieve the same clock on water. I let it run for three full days, while I was out on the road, to verify this. It should be noted that this is only one machine, with it's share of peculiarities.
I don't know if better results could be obtained for other cases, but I only have the masscooler for WC equipment and cannot try any other single rig.
I did recover almost all of the nanofluid, except for about an ounce that was pumped up the tcouple wires, as I posted earlier. The nanofluid is now tinted a distinct blue from picking up the dye in my prior loop. I ran the blue dye for almost a year, so I'm not surprised by this.
Before I went from the nanofluid testing to distilled water, I flushed the loop five times with water to insure I got all the nanofluid out. I did this to make sure my results were meaningful.
Of interest to me is the temp difference, TI-T2 in the data. At the 3.6 gig point, the nanofluid held a smaller difference, over the water. I have no idea if this is significant.
The main rig is now back where it needs to be, doing main rig type of stuff.
Regards,
Bob
some more results in the Liquid Cooling:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/Forums/...d.php?t=209373
looking good relttem! I am very sorry I have not had time to get it in my B3 loop. :( I have been so busy getting back to work and to add to that I started an online school. I will get going on this really soon!!!!
Very interesting. Haven't seen such a product until this thread.
no problem littleowl. Me and my friend were very impressed with your, 123Bob, Skinnee and HESmelaugh's testing. Soon will be the second iteration.