Lapping the 2.4C IHS

Be honest I wouldn't suggest it, my point above was to lap BOTH surface meaning heatsink and IHS, not remove it. I was just showing how small the core is underneath, so when applying thermal paste one can understand spreading it to the edges, isn't necessarily as critical, as the smoothness of the mating surfaces, and the type of thermal paste.

If your going to do it, I'd recommend this method below, and if you feel the center being umovable, it's silver solderd to the core, so leave it (that's nylon thread in the picture NOT wire, it's grey from the epoxy) You simply place the processor into the motherboard (to clamp it down) and "saw" away with the string. It takes time, but using any other object can expose the interconnect trace wires, just under the chip's surface. And especially at the edges;

and yes i got it off but problem with my zalman 6500cu so i take zalman water block and it worked nice with water cooling and ihs off i got nearly 10 temp drop :)

Hey Liquid, thanks for the reply :) I picked my name because I used to IRC a lot, and wanted something unique so that I would allways have the same nick on Efnet. Nailbomb is the name of a band from Brazil, so I figured nobody else would ever take it. Plus I like the band :)

To answer your questions:

Right now I'm running a new MCX 478-V. Nice heatsink, very nice finish on the bottom of the sink. The V version uses the stock retention bracket, and a pair of clips to hold it in place.

TIM: AS5 applied per your directions. I first learned how to do that when I started using Ceramique. I don't think a lot of people are aware and probably still just spread it. When I first showed my friend how to do it, he was skeptical. That is, until he saw his temp drop quite a bit.

I DO think that maybe the MCX478 could stand a bit of sanding thou, so maybe I'll try that and see what happens.

Unless you have any other ideas?

Thanks :)

Oh, just to clarify for me:

Quote:

---

After a week, remove the fan, and shift the heqatsink slightly, this will actually expidite the "settling" and break-in process of the TIM.

---

You're not saying to remove the whole sink are you? Just the the fan right (easy to do on the 478-V) and then kind of wiggle the sink a couple degrees in both directions? I had seen that as well on AS's site. The 478 has some bad mama jama clamps on it thou, its pretty damn tight. Tighter than my Spark 7 was. With that sink I could wiggle it a couple degrees each direction.

So, pull the SINK after a week, or just the fan?

Thanks for the warm welcome too dude :)

Liquid, while I'm thinking about it:

Do your 'burn in' your paste by running a max load with something like Prime95, or do you feel its even beneficial to do so?

About the "settling" procedure, Yes, simply remove the fan (actualy you don't even have to remove the fan so long as you grab the heatsink, and wiggle, it from side to side just a few mm. You want to be careful if using the retention ziff-tabs, perhaps avoiding this all together. In fact, if your motherboard has mounting holes, I'd immediately remove the ziff-tab retention mechanism. Ironically, what makes the 478 so effective at dissipating heat, it's weight; is countering that of the ziff-tab clamps. I'd say your only reaping 75% of it's full potential, due to the weight significanty reducing mounting pressure.

In so far as buring in the paste. I do not, but many do, and Nevin did say that turning on, and off power to the CPU, does help expedite the "break in" period. He didn't mention Prime-95, but my philosophy is not to stress the CPU if it's not being stressed under normal circunstances. If you want to stress it, just use it.

You probably have what is arguably, the best air-cooler on the market, Thermalright being the only other brand which in it's class. What is critical with these massive copper heatsinks is air-flow. It may be noisy, but if your spending the money for the best, I'd only match it with the best fan. For 92mm that would be the Vantec Tornado pushing 119CFM. I have this fan, and it's excellent. I imagine it would be quite a match with your heatsink. Finally, while the Swiftech does have an excellent surface, it's one of the manufacturers which use a "finish", and I beleive this protective layer impedes it's conductive capabilties. I would definately lap it, and bring in down to some really fine grits. This company www.easypckits.com (or person) offfers an excellent kit, and it's how I attained the finish below on my 3.0C;

Quote:

---

If your motherboard has mounting holes, I'd immediately replace the ziff-tab retention mounts.

---

Am I reading you right: replace the whole P4 retention bracket assembly? I didn't realize that replacements were even available.

Tornado is allready on the way :)

Just to clarify: the 478-V fits in the stock retention frame, and the old 478 uses the thru the board mounting, or
at least I think it does. MCX4000 certainly does.

http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/imag...ed-300x252.jpg

I might try to hit the bottom of the sink, but I don't know. I feel the flu coming on I think :( Maybe later in the week ;)

Well I went to the Swiftech site, and don't see where they've provided for a through-board mounting system for that cooler? I'm perplexed because of it's weight? Perhaps they believe the plastic push pins that secure the Intel bracket are sufficient to hold the weight, which I'm sure they are, but I wonder how much pressure can be excerted, with the unit, and large fan "hanging" there, gravity pulling the unit and reducing contact pressure?

Well, I think you raised a very good question. However if you look at their C/W numbers, they seem very good especially with the Tornado.

And, I've got to tell you, the clips themselves are BADASS. It takes a LOT of force to get them clamped down, so that being the case I'm not sure mounting pressure is much of an issue.

Maybe you could hit them up for a review sample, and see what you think?

:D

I've tried, Swiftech only sends samples to the largest sites. I can get anything from Thermalright, as their much better in that respect. They give small sites a chance. Funny thing is Swiftech sent a sample to [M], and I submit articles to Madshrimps?

But I'm going to write them anyway. Thing is, when I last wrote them I requested a Water-cooling kit, which is somewhat costly.

I think you should give this a try if you can find a pair of 60mm fans, Liquid.

My numbers have been great, but i've been hesitant to state anything final incase i've pulled a boner..

http://www.wcroller.com/los/linkpics/slk10k.jpg

Right now I am running 2444mhz 1.968v with 21c ambient (measured behind an intake fan with ratshack indoor/outdoor thermometer). SETI@home (setihide and cmd line client) gives me a temp of 37c. Loading the CPU down with a game or any of the burn-in wizards I can find (those 64k demos work great for this, too) only maxes me out at 40c.

Idle temps for the few times I have been idle long enough for them to drop significantly were about 26-28c.


Thermalright should give this a try too, and sell SLK-10K's.. i'll let them as long as they send a few to XS (and maybe lanageddon.com) for give-aways :D

Is that the cooler I gave you, that got there in like five days? Email me, and I'll send the photo to my contact at Thermalright, you never know my freind.

Well, I have to say I'm really perplexed:

I got an 80mm Tornado in today for the 478-V. Why the 80mm? If you look at Swiftech's site, the 80mm actually has a better C/w rating than the 92. My guess is the larger hub on the 92mm gives a bigger deadspot in the center of the heatsink.

So, WHAT am I perplexed about? I'm perplexed about how the Tornado, running at full blast, is no better tempwise than the 39CFM fan that I was running before.

How could this be? :(

Wow this is a puzzler. I imagine it's your case ventillation, or lack there-of. Although it's seems your knowledgeable enough that you alrteady have a well-ventilated case. I'd recommend removing the side-panel if it's in-place, even if you beleive your case is well ventilated. leave the side-panel off for a good long time (3 hours minumum) for temp equillibrium. I gaurantee you'll see a minimum 10C temp drop.

And as I've said before, I'll bet my infamous Silver Solder Dropping Collection on it! Which by the way has become a valuable commoditity in it's own artistic right.

I did it. After a´pain i removed the shim

Good job, what method did you use? Did you try the string method? Most don't have the patience, and to be honest I cheated a little, by taking a couple of prys at it, with the ole Xacto knife. hehe

Now let's see the core cleaned up.

by the by, DON'T LAP the CORE!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Liquid3D
Good job, what method did you use? Did you try the string method? Most don't have the patience, and to be honest I cheated a little, by taking a couple of prys at it, with the ole Xacto knife. hehe

Now let's see the core cleaned up.

by the by, DON'T LAP the CORE!

---

i have used a dead mobo(socket)a steel blade and lot of patience

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Liquid3D
Whats the core look like? Is it blackish, or what?

---

sorry, hee is the core a bit cleaner

Yes that's look like a "spicey-a-meata-ball". Should overclock like a madman.

But I must tell you that, you may using too much thermal paste. This is an awful lot my friend. With all due respect.

By the by, be careful mounting heatsinks with through board mounting hardware, they are designed to stand-off at a certain height. Enough to apply adequate pressure on the Pentium 4, but removing that IHS, creates a gap. I tried mounting my SP-94, and thank the Lord, the CPU shut's down before frying, because contact between CPU and Heatsink was non-existant. The paste remained un-touched.

You eitther have to sand down the stand-off's, whihc means you have to sand the bottom of the mounting screws as well, because they "tap-out" in the bottom of the standoffs.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Liquid3D
Yes that's look like a "spicey-a-meata-ball". Should overclock like a madman.

But I must tell you that, you may using too much thermal paste. This is an awful lot my friend. With all due respect.

---

yes, i know that. Also i was not the first owner of this chip. i bought from a friend.
Thanks;)

As I said no offense intended. Just looking out for one another.

I spoke too soon. Temps have dropped 3C with the 80mm Tornado, running it at 7V on my Rheobus. Interestingly enough thou, I don't see much difference thou running the fan at full nuts 12V.

One thing I did have to change was my exhaust fan. Bumped it up to a 39CFM fan. So, I DO think its somewhat of an airflow issue. Its a Kingwin 424 case. Spots forf 2 80 intakes, who's airflow will get somewhat impeded by the hard drives, 1 80mm exhaust (now 39CFM) and the 80mm blowhole I cut.

Intakes: Pana H1's at 39CFM
Exhaust: Vantec Spectrum at 39CFM
Top: Sunbeam UVCCFL at 32CFM?

Plus the power supply fans, which are thermally controller, ie SilentPure Power 480. Good PSU BTW, voltages look rock steady measured on a digital multimeter.

Its rumored that some early batches of the Asus P4PE might have problems accurately reading temps, so I have that to contend with as well. Batches Made prior to January 2003.

All my wires are sleeved, and round cables for everything else. It's nice and clean, and the sleeving really isn't hard to do yourself, its just time consuming the first time you do it. :)

i lapped the ihs after removing it just to see. God, tis ihs is very concave.

Strange, lapped my other 2.8C. I donk now if the IHS was more flat than this one or i did i bad job. I didnt apply to much pressure on the cpu, neither put the finger in the middle of the cpu, so the temps ate the same as unlapped.:rolleyes:

Mine was partially convex, partially concave ;)

Draw an X on it with a permanent marker, and then when you sand you can see the low spots. Low spots are where you have marker left.

second attempt. no difference in temps. sanded with 400, 600,1000 paper.
this is before relapping

After the lapping. Almost the same.:mad:

For the love of Pete, fella's all I'm asking is that you TRY removing your side-panels for several hours and watch the temps drop. I bet you wont put that side-panel back on.

Today it's warm, but recently I've had the windows closed, because of a review I'm writing on the RBX block, I need to find temps "normal" people would experience. Although what I don't understand is I'm not so special. How hard could it be to find a window, put your PC beneath it, and open the window a crack. It's Dec in R.I. on the shoreline, and it's almost 60F outside, so I'm stting here in a Tee-shirt, so I'm not freezing. These are the temps I'm getting at the moment using the RBX block, with H20 components outside of the case.

i will do it. Here in Rio is very hot (40C).
Liquid3D, what did you think of my lapping ?
:(

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin
i will do it. Here in Rio is very hot (40C).
Liquid3D, what did you think of my lapping ?
:(

---

not enough

and why'd you take the shim off the processor before lapping it?

Shim?

Your lapping looks pretty good, but you want to go a few more finer grits down, and in reversing circular motions. Remember to place the sand-paper on a piece of glass, or a mirror, to ensure the surface is flat. Carefully spreading your weight (using a cloth or your fingers but don't bend the pins) across the pins, go in circular, and/or figure eight (8) motions, keeeping the IHS flat on the surface. If you can't get the figure eight thing down, just go in circles, but be sure to reverse the direction. Keep cleaning the processor with alcohol, and tapping the sand-paper to get the powdered copper off. It will go much better if you keep cleaning it.

I'm bummed because I have one of the famous SL6WT Malay 2.8C's L323A832, and it's crapping out above 250FSB, or 3585MHz. Here's my OC temps now;

Quote:

---

For the love of Pete, fella's all I'm asking is that you TRY removing your side-panels for several hours and watch the temps drop.

---

LOL! I used to run my Hx08 with the side panel off all the time, that was before I was OC'ing and monitoring temps. It was just a pain in the ass to take all the screws out to get inside the case to work on it.

Its fairly cool in my room here. Winter outside, and window cracked. I don't see much a difference with the panel off on my Kingwin, but I think I have good airflow anyway so. The other issue for me thou, is I don't think the P4PE temp sensors are accurate. Nobody really seems to know WHERE the mobo sensor is actually located for one thing, at least on the forums I have asked on. Several people on abxzone.com have reported goofy temps with boards shipped before January 2003. I got mine in Dec. 02.

In regards to lapping: Liquids suggestion to use a figure 8 motion is a great one. Doing the figure 8's really seems to make it easier to keep things FLAT, especially if you do it in conjunction with my Sharpie trick. Draw an X on the IHS, and then when you send you can see your high and low spots :) Also, you should probably keep in mind, the more mirror like your finish, the LESS TIM you want to use, because there theoretically less voids to fill.

thank you nailbomb, i did that lapped in figure 8 motion. I didnt appy to much force while lapping, so i am afraid of dead spots.

Hrm, you must not have sanded very much Marvin, because I can still see the X there. The way you know its flat is when all the X is GONE.

sorry the mistake Nail, i draw the X pattern, as you said, before lapping. the final is this.

Nice tweak. Do you remove IHS before lapping? I'm worry about this hole in the Heatspreader whats got happents if came dirts in?

The hole is just a leftover from the manufacturing process. When they epoxy the IHS to the chip wafer there is a lot of heat generated. The hole is there to prevent the IHS from blowing off the top of the assembly.

So, I wouldn't be too awfully worried about getting stuff in the hole, especially if you follow Liquid's suggestion of cleaning the IHS with alchohol as you do your sanding.

I got an excellent finish using a kit I got from www.EasyPCKits.com they sent me a small piece of glass, and all the paper you would ever need. At first I didn't even know what the different colored paper was for, it was so fine, it just felt like paper hehe. Here's a picutre, and on the sheet you can read they supply 400 - 1000, and then 40-micron - 15-micron paper. These are the results using fine papers;

Did 2 things today:

1. bent my Swiftech clips to get a little more mounting pressure.
2. went up to 1500 grit on lapping. Had stopped at 1000 previously

Result: -2C :)

Ever consider Watercooling my friend? You simply can't it for the money; http://www.dangerden.com/mall/Kits/kits_retail.asp

DangerDen Maze-4 Intro Kit is only $174, and is awsomw, but for $199 I'd get the Powerkit, because it includes a slightly more powerful pump, and better radiator.

The kits come with MAZE-4 CPU block, Hydor L30 (320Gph) pump, Black Ice Extreme Radiator, 120mm/92CFM Sunon fan, 1.3-Meters 1/2" clear tubing, Water Wetter, clamps, AS3. It was the best move I've ever made in my PC experience, and it's so versatile. I now use the D.D. Z-chipset, and have their GPU block as well. Just waiting for a larger Radiator. You can experience as much as a -25C overall temp drop switching to H20. The screenshots below were taken the other nite, when I had my window open about 6", and yes it was cold in my room, but not freezing. I did put on a sweater. Obviously no one would do this all the time, but these temps allowed me to do some OCing.

Yes, I have been looking at it. A LOT actually :) For some 2.4c action.

Hrm, biopsychiatry.com eh?

Actually it's more like Neurophilosophy. Neuroscience encapsulates several disciplines, at it's base is Cognitive Science, AI (Artificial Intelligence), Physiopsychology, Neurochemistry, and Linguistics. Neurophilosophy delves into topic's such as the "Nature" of consciousness. Are our thoughts purely physiochemical brain states. Such that the color green, or the thought of green, can be defined as, such and such an exact neurochemical state, at such and such a time.

Semantics, a sub-discipline of Linguistics talks about things such as "Possible Worlds" as it applies to "Truth Values." Mathematical methods in linguistics are integral to AI, and programs such as Parallel Distributive Processing, are excellent analogies for the Brain's learning process. Funny thing is philosophers have been arguing such ideas even before PLato's Allegory of the Cave. Reading THIS will most likely lead you to understand why I find this science fascinating.

I just tried lapping my 2.6C yesterday, to see if it would make any different. I used 1200 paper all the time. I don't think my temps were any better than before...i only use sucky Tsunami cooler with some new AS5 that i just got. I just think that my temps are higher now than it were with my shinetsu . In prime it got up to max 54C, with my AS5 and lapping the CPU it whent up to 58C in prime! Maybe the temps are so high now because of the goop is recently put on. I also used as little goop as i could, so you barely could see the core of the CPU.

Here is the result:

NR2.

Damn, Liquid3D, that's some fine lapping. I'll post some pics of my results soon, I took some pics but haven't downloaded them to the PC yet. I used 500-600-1200-2000 grit, took me about a week to do the lapping(my HDD was dead and I had a defective mobo, so for a whole week my only contact with my PC was when I lapped the CPU :D).

This is how cold my Danger Den water-cooler RBX and Z-chipset NB blocks got, with the radiator outside of the case, and the window cracked a tad. This is appraoching phase-change cold and Yes I did see my breath that morning hehe;

temps didnt change much. CNPS7000 Al-Cu, 2.4B SL6RZ, AS5. I posted alexandrus picture, I've had it downloaded to my PC ;)

I also did my last CPU. 2.0A, AS3, SLK900U, SCF2@1600RPM. 2000grit, both. I experienced higher temps, ~2-3C.. But after a week or so, I experienced a temp drop of ~2C of the original.. I suppose it's the low RPM of the fan. Picture will follow(sorry but a bit blurry.. about 1 year ago and shacking hands at 5AM)

and my old cpu&current heatsink... I could read with ease the AS3 notes in my CPU..baad picture :mad:

Nice lapping job there! It's possible if you didn't lap the heatsink (or CPU) on a piece of glass you actually created an un-even surface. This would explain why temps went up. Also don't spread the paste, simply place a small dollup in the center of the CPU, and mount the heatsink.

The manner in which you lap is critical as well. If you don't continually clean away the copper particles, they tend to become re-ground into the surface, making deeper pits, so all the work ends up being defeated.

Nevin the owner of Arctic Silver told me that moving the heatsink "shift it just a bit" actually seats, and sets the paste. After about a week of applying new TIM on a CPU, you should give the heatsink a slight shift. being careful not to loosen the fastners, but enough to cause a shift in the paste, in which any air-gaps are eliminated. (he's also the person who taught me how to apply paste)

OK, thanks a lot for the advices. Actually I don't clean the surface when lapping, I like the way the sandpaper became more smooth. At the end, for the final touch, a bit of soap with water is used, I think it increases the smoothness.

Quote:

---

if you didn't lap the heatsink (or CPU) on a piece of glass

---

I've chosen myself the piece of glass, it's near the SLK900 heatsink. I will give it a try with AS5. I always spread very well any kind of thermal paste, maybe it's time for a new approach. Happy lapping to everybody :)

just put a small dab os paste the center of the IHS.your lapping looks fine.:D

Anyone using a special thing to hold on to their chips while lapping? I found the Xeons have more pins and they're truly a hell to hold on to when lapping :D

Id get an old socket off a board and use that If you have one avalable...

Otherwise pushing the chip into some stiff foam will work pretty good.

The foam thing is a good idea, I'll try it :)

There's absolutely no way to discern if the surface was lapped flat by looking at it. I agree it's "looks" well done, however; if temps went up after lapping, I'd most definately take a piece of glass / place the sand-paper on it / distributing pressure evenly over the pins with your fingers (so as not to bend any) / press down firmly / go in figure eight motions, or circles / periodically reversing / wipe clean every few seconds / always use clean sand-paper / work from 800-grit to 10-micron.

The reason it becomes "smoother" at the end, is because the particles become trapped in the paper. This is not a good thing, because your simply using the material lapping is intended to remove, and rubbing it back into the surface. This is what can cause uneven pit's and microscopic grooves. Remember the intent in lapping is to create as flat a surface as possible. If both surfaces are perfectly flat, then they will mate together perfectly. The reason we use thermal paste, is because it's almost impossible to create two equally, and perfectly flat surfaces. SO we fill the microscopic pits, and groooves with the Thermal INTERPHASE Material (TIM) the key term being interphase.

Too late for that Liquid3D, I did the lapping the wrong way it seems and I am too lazy to start it all over again, I have to clean the CPU, do the lapping, clean the heatsink, lapp it again, and it takes too much time. Not that I am a busy man, but I am an extremely lazy one. I should be called XLD(eXtremely Lazy Dude) :D

yeah.. I did half wrong.. But since, I did remove so many times the heatsink.. changed so many times cpu's.. it's already gone that lapping. So maybe.. sometimes when the sun will rise, I will do it perfectly. But for that I'm gonna need that lapping kit.

The best lapping kit I've seen, and used. Included is: a piece of glass for flat backing surface, 400 to 10-micron grit sand-paper sheets, and TIM of your choice (depending on kit). www.EasyPCKits.com :D

yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I saw you posted the link a couple of pages earlier. Nice one ;) Also, could you please post a scanned image of "Suggestions and Tips" from that lapping kit? I am curious what they are saying in it. Thanks.

I don't have a scanner, however; I'll reprint a few pertinent items from the included instructions;

Quote:

---

Your Premeium Lapping Kit contains a piece of glass to be used as a flat backing surface...sheets of sandpaper consisting of the following grits in order: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 40-micron, 25-micron, 20-micron, 15-micron, 10-micron (color coded)...Superfine particles of aluminum or copper will be very dark and hard to remove and clean up. Keep plenty of paper towels on hand...put a micro-bevel on the the outer edges of the surface to be lapped...The trick is not too remove too much metal...but a slight bevel on the outer edge will prevent snagging and tearing of the sandpaper...start with coarser grits, using lower grits only if you have to as they remove too much surface....wrap the sandpaper around the glass edges to prevent it from slipping....use a few drops of water for lubrication (mineral oil or 70% ispropyl alcohol will work as well)...move in figure eights or circular motions, reversing direction every few seconds...Rinse (or clean with alcohol damped cloth) your surface (heatsink or IHS, etc) and sandpaper periodically when changing grit, even while working on the same grit. A few stray grains of larger grit then your currently using will really scratch and be noticable (keep cleaning it!)....Go slow and easy, don't bear down too hard...let the sandpaper do the work...

---

Those quotes in parenthesis are MY own.

I wish I could get my hands on one of those lapping kits, but it's not easy, since I live in Eastern Europe. I think I'll redo the lapping using 600-1200-2000 grit, do it the right way this time, and see if anything good happens, like temp drops ;)

They ship Internationally all the time, and I beleive Eastern Europe would be no problem. In fact I thought they only shipped to USA, and got an email yelling at me (just kidding). It's as little as $3 for shiping just about anywhere in the world.

Awesome :)
Thanks for letting me know.

I just finished an in-depth review of their Premium Lapping Kit at my site. If you have time, your opinion would be appreciated;
www.ksBrainstorms.com

Temps were attained with Danger Den RBX & Z-chipset blocks, all H20 hardware (BlackIceX, 2x120mm/92CFM Sunons, Hydor-L30) sit external of the case below a window I open periodically. The low temps let me run up to 3907MHz stable. Only 93MHz from my H20 goal...:eek:

Nice results :)

How big is the piece of glass they send? I was thinking about hitting the local glass shop and see if they could hook me up with a 12x12 piece of scrap plate, and have them braze the edges so it isn't sharp anymore.

This is just NUTS:

Newegg has some Intel Stock heatsinks for 5 bucks, so I decided to order one. It's the same unit that ships with the 3.06HT, ie the nice looking copper base jobby with thin Aluminum fins.

Anyway, I thought I'd throw it in my rig to see how good it performs in comparison to my Swiftech 478-V which was 10x as expensive.

So, what are the results?

The 5 dollar stock copper Intel sinkgives me the SAME temps as the 478-V. That's no §§§§ either. 35c idle and 41 load running
Folding.

Wow, I'm sure glad I spent all that cash on the Swifty ;)

I lapped the Intel sink before installing it.

The glass EasyPCkits provides is 4" x 4", and I wouldn't recommend buying a 12 x 12 because it will have a greater chance of cracking, shattereing. The size they send is ideal, because it allows easy wrapping of the lapping-paper, and keeps your figure-eights, or circles in small concentrations. This is better. I'd get their kit, because it's not easy finding 10-micron paper and beleive it or not that's the key. I NEVER thought I'd use that paper, in fact I didn't even know what the Hell it was at first. It was so smooth. But that's how I got those perfectly smooth, flat surfaces.

In so for as the heatsink. If you go to Thermal Integration's site, you'll see their heatsink's are specifically used by Intel to be included with the 3.06, and 3.2 CPU's. That's a compliment to T.I.T.I. I used to recommend the Dr Thermal to people, because the design is excellent. You only need contact directly over the core of any CPU. Especially the P4 given it's IHS is 70% larger then the core beneath it. My Danger Den RBX actually allows edges of the P4 IHS to be exposed, and this is the best heatsink/block I've ever used. The same is true with Thermal Integrations. Their concentrated foot-print, and the fins being cut to the base, allows the air from the fan to cool right down to the chip itself. The reason Swiftech, and Thermalright design's work, is because they use the concept of MAss (and in Thermalright's case a small foot-print, and unrestricted air-flow to the base), however; only a high powered fan 80mm/84CFM or 92mm/119CFM Vantec Tornado's really cools that copper-mass enough to extact the heat from the CPU. Remember two basic laws explain heatsink conduction where MAss is concerned; Fourier's Law and Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics.

Welp, I'm back. Just put the Swifty back in.

I 'think' I can account for my surprised reaction to how the Intel sink performed.

I just got a bottle of Akasa TIM-Clean today. So, pulled the Swifty off, cleaned the CPU with the Akasa, and the Intel sink and installed. Temp's the same as the Swifty.

Pulled the Intel, cleaned the Swifty with the TIM-Clean, and the CPU. Reinstalled the Swifty, and now my Swifty temps are -2C. Idle 33C load 39C.

I gotta say, while I can't for SURE attribute the change to the TIM-Clean, the stuff is just flat out AWESOME at cleaning heatsinks, and cores.

I took an old Slot1 PII, that had bunch of caked on goo on it, hit it with the TIM clean, and it just peeled it right off like butter. It looks like its brand new now.

I got the Akasa stuff from Sidewinder Computers for those that might be interested. There is only one other retailer right now in the USA that has the Akasa, and they charge (I feel anyway) an exhorbitant amount for shipping.

Liquid, I allways enjoy your insights, thanks :)

I'll be getting results when the mobo revives :D

For the past week I have been experimenting with my rig.
I lapped the CPU IHS(I have a 2.4B SL6RZ) long time ago, and I perfected it with 2000 grit about 2 weeks ago. I also lapped the Zalman CNPS7000-AlCu the same time, 2 weeks ago. Both are mirror smooth, and almost perfectly flat(I cannot say perfectly flat because I would lie, nothing is perfect). Did the same to the NB heatsink on my 4PCA3+ rev. 1.2, which is now smooth and shiny :)
Anyway, before last weekend, I didn't use ANY TIM between the CPU and cooler or between the NB and NB heatsink, and my temps were something like 49C idle for the CPU and 39C idle for the system temp(which I guess is the NB temp). Full load temps were above 60C on the CPU and around 42C for the NB.
I put AS5 on the NB and on the CPU, and the temps ... well, raised. I noticed that because of the shim, the NB heatsink was making proper contact with the NB core, so I removed the shim and replaced it, replaced AS5 with Ceramique for the NB, and yesterday, after about a day of gaming(SW KOTOT), the temps were : 57C CPU and 51C system temp.
My case is Antec PerformancePlus 1080AMG, and I have absolutely no fans installed on it, so no airflow, I understand that. I also have a GFFX5900 Ultra which get pretty hot and is very close to the NB, but still, these temps look a bit high to me.
What do you guys think ?

Quote:

---

nd I have absolutely no fans installed on it, so no airflow

---

Houston, we have a problem :slobber:

You need to get some airflow going man. I would recommend getting either some PanaFlo H1's or M1's to get some air moving thru your case. www.sidewindercomputers.com has the new model Pana's that support RPM monitoring if you want/need that. They are good fans, and don't put out as much noise as other fans that crank out the same CFM's.

I would also recommend that your amount of exhaust CFM's is greater to or equal than the amount of intake CFM's, thus negative pressure in your case.

Maybe Liquid has some other thoughts, he's a sharp dude :)

yeah I also need 6x80mm and 2x92mm Panaflo for my case/heatsink/psu .. that's going to be ~$200 fans+shipping+vat and whateva' . It's hard to be at most 1/4 xtreme(I would like so many things.. like a bowman modded prommy :slobber: ) in Romania ;)

nailbomb, where'd you get the P4 retail heatsink for 5 bucks?

i searched up and down newegg's site and i can't find it :(

After lapping my IHC and my SLK-947U and switching from OCZ Ultra thermal compound to Geil's copper and silver mixture, I got zero difference in temperatures. Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Alexandrus
For the past week I have been experimenting with my rig.
I lapped the CPU IHS(I have a 2.4B SL6RZ) long time ago, and I perfected it with 2000 grit about 2 weeks ago. I also lapped the Zalman CNPS7000-AlCu the same time, 2 weeks ago. Both are mirror smooth, and almost perfectly flat(I cannot say perfectly flat because I would lie, nothing is perfect). Did the same to the NB heatsink on my 4PCA3+ rev. 1.2, which is now smooth and shiny :)
Anyway, before last weekend, I didn't use ANY TIM between the CPU and cooler or between the NB and NB heatsink, and my temps were something like 49C idle for the CPU and 39C idle for the system temp(which I guess is the NB temp). Full load temps were above 60C on the CPU and around 42C for the NB.
I put AS5 on the NB and on the CPU, and the temps ... well, raised. I noticed that because of the shim, the NB heatsink was making proper contact with the NB core, so I removed the shim and replaced it, replaced AS5 with Ceramique for the NB, and yesterday, after about a day of gaming(SW KOTOT), the temps were : 57C CPU and 51C system temp.
My case is Antec PerformancePlus 1080AMG, and I have absolutely no fans installed on it, so no airflow, I understand that. I also have a GFFX5900 Ultra which get pretty hot and is very close to the NB, but still, these temps look a bit high to me.
What do you guys think ?

---

Sounds pretty odd. Perhaps too much paste? Its also possible that the paste didn't get to burn in, but that'd only be a 1-3C difference.

Hm... Ive never gotten this whole lapping the IHS idea. I mean, the max temp gain I have seen is like mayyyyybeee 4C. Even then, is it really worth voiding your warranty? I recently had a 2.6C die on me at stock volts. Boy was I glad I hadn't lapped. I would have to advise against lapping. Just seems like the risks outweigh the rewards.

what time did u use that C? It was faulty for sure.. very strange.

what do you mean by "what time"? Thanks.

oh sorry for how long :)

no problem, im not here to argue symantics. But i was confused ;) . I used it for about a month. It just died one day. Everything at stock. The weird thing is, get this, one day, my AOpen AX4SPE refuses to boot. OK so I figure, dead mobo. I replace it with a 4PCA3+. Refuses to boot. So I try some new RAM and it boots. But get this. In my BRAND NEW 4PCA3+ it will not even POST when the RAM is in dual channel mode. So I get into BIOS on single channel. Temps are 54C. At stock everything. Im like... OK.............................................. So i shut it off. Remount and go in again. 53C........ so im like WTF? So then I figure, oh it must be a faulty mobo sensor. So I put my external temp monitor on the CPU. Nope it reads 55C. And I know it is accurate. So im totally stumped. It has to be a dead CPU. BTW this is with stock cooler. And I was able to get into windows but the temps were 89C then it immediatly locked up. The board isnt overvolting either because I checked the volts and they were at 1.488Vcore 2.5V ram.

I agree it does depend on the situation. My 2.4C was OEM, so after 90-days it didn't matter. My 2.8C is retail, so I haven't lapped it yet. My 3.0C is lapped, and OEM, since I've removed the IHS from my 2.4C, and am now removing the IHS from my 3.0C. Water-cooling blocks have minimal, and infinately malleable clamp-down pressure therefore, it's safer to do these things, because you don't have worry about a pound of copper bolted to it.

Lapping is beneficial, depending how you do it. This is why I keep pushing the EasypcKits lapping kits on you guys. I don't own stock in the company, but until I used their Premium Lapping Kit, and did it correctly, all I got were 2C to 4C drops. I'm willing to bet SPQQKY (with all due respect my friend) Either didn't use a complete flat surface like a piece of glass, or use 400-grit all the way down to .10-micron paper. Perhaps he didn't continually clean the surface with 70% isopropyl alcohol (70% because then it's like wet-lapping) and continually clean (by tapping it pff) the sand paper. Also one move the heatsink/CPI in small figure eights or circles reversing directions. And alwsys allow the sand-paper to do the work. I f you press down with too much papaer , you may create an uneven sureface. I'm wiiling to bet that's what's happining in many cases, not enough lapping, and most P4 IHS surfaces I've lapped were uneven before I started.

It may sound complicated, it's not. It only takes about an hour to lap both surfaces correctly. Then you will see 6C to 8C drops. BUT you must use a high quality paste like AS5 once you see how thick it is, you'll understand.

Also you can practice "Tinting" rubbing a grain sized amount into the heatsink and wiping almost all away until it literally leaves a stain. Then place a small (tiny) drop of paste on the CPU center (not enough is actually better then too much) and simply tighten down the heatsink.

I'm doing an entire article on this step by step, removing the 3.0C IHS in the process, and cmparing temps. It'll be done next week. I have three reviews to do in 48 hours before that. This picture below is what your surface would look like when done, and I put the exact amount of paste to show that as well (the camera flash reflected the silver in it, it's the dark, thick, AS5);

Quote:

---

nailbomb, where'd you get the P4 retail heatsink for 5 bucks

---

Refurb/Heatsink/Intel Section. They are now out of stock thou, but just keep checking. I don't think they ever last long.

Liquid,

If I'm allready close to a mirror finish on my IHS, do I need to restart with 400? I might order a kit here shortly. It seems flat to me because when I draw an X on it with a marker, it gets sanded off equally, with no obvious high/low spots.

I"m using 1/4 inch plexi to sand on.

NO never go back, you need a finer grit then the one you left off wioth, otherwise you'll actually lap it back to being rough.

I just removed the IHS from my 3.0C, and am doing a write-up on comparing before and after;

Sweet, you got it off.

If you wanna clean the goop off easily, I can't recommend the Akasa TIM-Clean enough. It's amazing. Plus it won't eat your liver for lunch :p

didnt you guys hear what fugger said? He said that the P4s actually are better cooled with the IHS than without. But I guess we will find out wont we.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Liquid3D
I just removed the IHS from my 3.0C, and am doing a write-up on comparing before and after;

---

that camera's MACRO mode is awesome :)

yes it's the Fuli FinePix 210, I'm going to do a review on it as well. You won't belive it, a very cool friend of mine sent it to me to enhance my attchements, and bring a real visual quality to my reviews. He's most definately an Uberman! The world is a better place because of people like him (hehe). I'm still learning the Macro mode, which allows you to foucs on a non-reflective object, then scan back over to the original, but once focus is locked, you have to be careful not move it.

Oh by the by, here's a pic for those asking exactly how much, and how to apply AS5 or any thermal paste. The silver is reflecting in the flash, so it's looks like Ceramique, but it's AS5. You might use less then indicated below, the macro mode is sort of deceptive. It looks much larger then it is, because it's reflecting in the lapped surface. Once you do this, simply mount that baby, and allow the paste to be compressed between the two surfaces, thus minimizing any chance of air incorperation.

If anyone out there is doubting this application method by the way, don't.

I got a drop of about 3c just by applying my Ceramique properly, and have managed to shave another 3c off that just by experimenting with the amount applied, so it's clearly worth trying.

Keith, if you don't mind me asking, do you know how much that camera costs, I just need a ballpark figure, I'm going to be in the market for a Digicam myself soon, and that looks like a beaut.

Currency conversion isn't much of a concern, thanks to all our taxes and VAT, it works out at pretty much £1 = $1 anyway. :D

Sure it's $200 or I beleive (how do I do the lb icon?). And here's it's zoom capabilities. It's an unbelievable camera! (This is the view out my window, which is open) from the snow you can now see why my water-cooling temps drop so low. The H20 hardware (reservoir sitting in front of push/pull radiator fans) sit on the ground below this window... The Pink building in the foreground is 300 meters away, the first row of houses, across the first section of Bay are about 2 Kilometers away, and the houses across the entire Bay are about 12 kilometers away! The sun is rising, reflecting off the Yankee-white paint, so it's seems blurry, it's not (by the way this is lowest setting 640 x 480, the pictures at 2048 x 1536 are amazing!).

$200.

DAMN... gotta try to look for one here in Europe.

Pe-Te

My sentiments exactly, cheers Keith, you just cemented my camera choice for me, I didn't think I could afford to spend over £200 for a digican I might not use too often, looks like I won't heve to. :D

So its this one ?

http://www.geizhals.at/eu/a56420.html

175€ in Germany. Gotta see what that would be delivered here.

Delivery ~30e with UPS to finland.. ~18e to GB.

PTK

Keith my man,

I think you were right about my P4PE, and the mounting pressure not being adequate.

I just got a DFI board, slapped in the MCX478V, and it does WAY better in the DFI board. For instance I can see a diff in temps between 7v and 12v on the Tornado now. So, I think what I should do is get another retention bracket for the P4PE, and see if I get improvements. The P4PE was running my 1.8a at 2400 mhz, and the DFI is a 2.8C. I get lower load/idle temps on the DFI with the Swiftech, than I
did with the P4PE/1.8a (which ran stock voltage)

Thoughts? It would appear I get better mounting pressure on the new boards retention bracket.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SPQQKY
After lapping my IHC and my SLK-947U and switching from OCZ Ultra thermal compound to Geil's copper and silver mixture, I got zero difference in temperatures. Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

---

This is somethjing I'm about to write on but I have so many things to write, I'm sitting here doing nothing. I'm so confused I don't where to sart? I have to find a new girlfirend just to help me get organized.

Anyhoo....I had an interesting talk with Nevin (Arctic Silver) and he made some very interesting points about lapping. Although in your circumstance it might not seem applicable, I beleive it may be.

Albeit a P4's IHS, or a Swiftech heatsink base, there's usually either a slight concave, or convex curvature in one or both surfaces. What happens is, when people lap, they might eliminate a convex surface where the protrusion made better contact with the heatsink surface. Lets say your heatsink base is slightly concave, and the CPU was slightly convex. You lap both surfaces. Because, your measuring your sucess by laying the heatsink, or CPU on a flat surface, the concave's deepest point may still exist. because the edges of the indentation will support it over the flat surface you wouldn't know. Ergo, by lapping the convex surface, you've now eliminated the point which protruded up from one surface, and made contact by fitting into the concave indentation.

Ergo the lapping of a single surface, albeit the IHS or heatsink, only gives you a 50% chance of improving contact. If the heatsink is convex, and the CPU concave there's a possibility that combination may fit together better then a poorly done lapping job on both surfaces.

Solution. Take a razor-blade and lay it over the surface of the CPU, then over the heatsink surface. The resulting discrepancy will enable you begin lapping with a much clearer picture of your goal, or at least upon which surface your going to have to lap down beyond the deepest part of the convex surface indent.

nailbomb (still love that username hehe) I'm not sure why but i don't rmemebr talking about mounting "pressure" being inadequate with the P4PE? Don't both those boards have mounting holes? That heatsink should be mounted through the board. I've yet to see a high-quality heatsink such as a Thermalright, or Swiftech which doesn't offer such hardware, and also recommends this as the preffered mounting method.

HMmmmm i took my IHS off about 6 months ago, seems to be running good since, but I wanna stick it back on just to see if my temps go up at all. What would be a good thing to stick it back on? im talking about the little black adhesive around it

Quote:

---

I've yet to see a high-quality heatsink such as a Thermalright, or Swiftech which doesn't offer such hardware, and also recommends this as the preffered mounting method.

---

Man, this thread is so LONG now, but jeah I think we did talk about it pages ago.

The MCX478-V is designed to fit in the stock retention bracket with clips. There is no thru board mounting.

Now, I noticed that when I installed it on the DFI that it took more force to secure the clips, thus leading me to believe I'm getting better mounting pressure. With the 478 in my P4PE I would turn up the Tornado from 7v to full nuts, and not see any diff in temps, but on the DFI board I most certainly do, and its quite a lot actually like -5c.

So, I wonder if I got another rentention bracket for the P4PE, if I could get better mounting pressure.

OK that's right sorry about that my friend. Now I remember what I thinking back then. How the Heck could Swifty build such a phenomenal heatsink which MUST weigh 600g, and not have offer through-board mounting? Anyhoo, my answer is yes, I think you should find a way to apply more tension. OR

You never took the IHS off that did you? I guess if the Swifty uses rentention bracket mounting you wouldn't have to worry about standoffs? Maybe that would be a better option then finding an ad hoc method of increasing pressure?

See what I'm saying? In that circumstance the lack of pressure would do well to mate with an Intel minus it's IHS. I'd go for that option. Can you show me a photo of the bottom of the swifty, or even better a close-up of it mounted on the board? Or would the plastic "cradle" Intel board-makers pin through the board obscure the portion of the photo? Anyway a photo similiar to this;

Keith, thanks :)

http://www.swiftnets.com/products/MCX478-V.asp

I think that will show you everything you want to see. Let me know if not.

I think I just need another retention bracket, because it seems like the bracket in my DFI gives increased mounting pressure, and way better temps, and that's on a proc that dissapates more heat to boot, ie the 2.8c.

Could it not just be that your DFI gives different temp readings to your other board?