#2 pic, note the foams scraps next to the exchanger
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#2 pic, note the foams scraps next to the exchanger
Getting there :D
Note that the exchanger will be ~20 cm above the baseplate, beneath it will be the II stages drier and probably the oil separator
Great pics and how to....I think it deserves sticky. :D
Can you change the topic to smth more related to the subject than "My newest toy ;]"? it sounded good with the single stage version but this is more like a walkthrough..
Done :DQuote:
Originally posted by berkut
Can you change the topic to smth more related to the subject than "My newest toy ;]"? it sounded good with the single stage version but this is more like a walkthrough..
So nice very good pics also!! i could do this just by the pics!! good job!!
Ok, making some new stuff :D
First thing for today: The mobo, hdd and psu tray...
Its basicly a box made of wood, with some sound damping mats inside, in it will sit my antec true power 480W and my Western Digital WD800JB, the necesary flow will be provided by the antec and 2x 80mm fans @ about 5V (depends on the antec will provide on its fan only molex)
Pics of the tray being mounted:
Notice the maze inside, its made so the sound doesent come out easyly ;]
2nd pic of the tray
How will the psu be mounted (1rst idea but in a matter of few minutes ill post my second one)
OMFG
Bowman, Macci, and the rest of you guys, this is smth that is one of the worst nightmares wich you can imagine :slobber: :slobber: :slobber:
:slobber:
:slobber: :slobber: :eek:
In the words of monty python and the quest for the holy grail...
"run away, run away..."
Was that the high or low side? Hopefully its not too bad to fix, and that your ok...
]JR[
that was your high stage right atleast better to have R22 in your house then CO2
You are experienced, but I see some guys telling noobs to use propane, not to worry.
Just goes to show that even very experienced guys can still have things go wrong. If this had been a noob with propane, it could have been bad news.
glad you ok bud.:)
this is why i always pressure test the system before i fire it up.
i see just a simple solder joint.
so you will up in no time..:D
be sure to clean that tube real good now.the leaking refrigerant will put oil into the metal and brasing or solder wont like that.
clean,clean,clean.then solder.
you are right, that is a nightmare. what kind of fitting gave away, is that a flare fitting?
was the connection brazed or soldered? (edit: bowman beat me to it.)
atleast nothing exploded (copper shrapnel comes to mind)! i hear cascades can explode if the low stage isnt condensing properly.
that is why i do all of my filling outside hehe, always plan ahead...
Quote:
Originally posted by ellsworth
i hear cascades can explode if the low stage isnt condensing properly.
that is why i do all of my filling outside hehe, always plan ahead...
yep if the cascade high side loses charge its evaperator wont cool the low sides condensor enough and the compressor will start to raise and raise until one of 2 things happen.
compressor cuts off from over heat and pressure or......BOOM......:frag: :frag:
a line explodes,a fitting,somthing.it wont be nice.thats one of the risks involved in making a cascade system from scratch.
wow i cant believe u got pics of it happenin! i woulda ran for the door!! sorry man is it an ez fix!!??
If that would be a noob with propane there could be BIG trouble, but a pro with propane... nothing would happenQuote:
You are experienced, but I see some guys telling noobs to use propane, not to worry.
Just goes to show that even very experienced guys can still have things go wrong. If this had been a noob with propane, it could have been bad news.
Its kindof windy now and i simply opened windows and it all was flushed out...
The second thing with propane is the fact that normal systems have MUCH less gas inside them, usualy propane is used in small DD systems, this is a I stage of a cascade O_o
And yes i use R22...
It survived the pressure tests... It didnt survive shutting the system down when the pressures started to eqalize and the temp of the copper pipe went down (its near the txv) radicly... damn..Quote:
this is why i always pressure test the system before i fire it up.
I had my digicam right on my desk and i was eating my dinner when it happened... I already knew that i couldnt stop that mf leak so i grabbed the cam and started making picsQuote:
wow i cant believe u got pics of it happenin! i woulda ran for the door!! sorry man is it an ez fix!!??
I will have a pressure relief tank in my system. Ive already had an accident when i didnt close my service valve on the compressor and it sucked air inside... Simply went to ~25-30bar and the air went through the cap tube...Quote:
yep if the cascade high side loses charge its evaperator wont cool the low sides condensor enough and the compressor will start to raise and raise until one of 2 things happen.
The system redone
^^
filter
nozzle
Keep the great pics coming! As someone said earlier, you could practically build one just using the pics for reference. I have never seen this done with so much visual detail. :D
OK, heres the comparsion between the old system and the new one that leakec (i mean the organisation of the pipes)
The new organisation:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postid=168857
The old one:
As you can see the path of the freon is optimised (on the high side) and always flows down (exept the valve) wich leads to a constant suply of liquid freon to the TXV + the filter acts like and acumulator + filters the freon right before the txv
Here is the sight glass, the pic comes from the old organisation but you can see solder joints of the valve , the old unused cap tube and some freon in it
And here are my crap but unleaking solder joints (i dont braze beacause i dont have a proper torch :/, instead i try to do these joints as well as they can get)
Ok and heres how i mountedthe txv:
1. The tools ^^
Mounting the txv ^^
Txv mounted ^^
And connecting the TXV's bulb to the suction line:
damm i have to wait until moday to view these.this is a 56k nightmare to look at.i just cannt veiw them at all on dial up.
but i know they are good,keep them coming i will get to see them one day.
you might try resizing them some for most of the guys watching.i resize all mine to 500 x500 or something close.
OOoooOO lucky me, it works ^^
They are 640x480, i think its a very nice resolution, a compromise between quality and sizeQuote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
damm i have to wait until moday to view these.this is a 56k nightmare to look at.i just cannt veiw them at all on dial up.
but i know they are good,keep them coming i will get to see them one day.
you might try resizing them some for most of the guys watching.i resize all mine to 500 x500 or something close.
And heres the exchanger all frosted up ^^
The temp after few mins of work (later it went to -38C, the system is unloaded and overcharged a little):
Here is what on the exchanger sits on for the moment (ill make a aluminium casing in the next few mins) and ill start mounting the 2nd stage compressor
Do you guys know does the 2nd stage compressor need to be isolated ?
You use silver solder or tin/lead?Quote:
Originally posted by berkut
And here are my crap but unleaking solder joints (i dont braze beacause i dont have a proper torch :/, instead i try to do these joints as well as they can get)
www.tool-up.co.uk sell propane and mapp and deliver europe wide if you live in a silly gas law country...
]JR[
Gas isnt the problem, poland is a §§§§ed up country where you can buy everything but a good torch is so damn expensive you cant even look on its price O_o And silver solder costs a fortune also..
Arent you worried @ cascade pressures the solder wouldnt hold then?
]JR[
This is the I stage of the cascade... in the 2nd stage ill have to use silver solder :(Quote:
Originally posted by ]JR[
Arent you worried @ cascade pressures the solder wouldnt hold then?
]JR[
No, the 2nd stage compressor just needs to be in a place were it will not get too hotQuote:
Originally posted by berkut
Here is what on the exchanger sits on for the moment (ill make a aluminium casing in the next few mins) and ill start mounting the 2nd stage compressor
Do you guys know does the 2nd stage compressor need to be isolated ?
Damn, theres a leak and i cant find it :/
you should check your joints
I'm eating the pics up, but I have 1.5 down, I couldn't go back to 56k...would drive me nuts! :D
What kind of torch do you prefer if you could find it?
Thnk God for Broadband:toast: :smileysex :toast:
indeed :toast:Quote:
Originally posted by water_cooler 20
Thnk God for Broadband:toast: :smileysex :toast:
but i only have 0.5mbit :(
Still better then 56K
None of the joints is leaking :OQuote:
Originally posted by water_cooler 20
you should check your joints
Il seperate my chiller in to two parts and ill see wich part leaks, then divide that part in to two... and so on :O
Damn i knew it...
Non of my joints were faulty, the leak is somewhere in the A/C unit, i suspect the condenser...
Thats gonna be at least one week of finding it, buing a new condenser (IF i will buy a knew condenser beacause this stuff is so expensive i dont think ill have the money).... §§§§
Its a good ocassion to post some pics of my compressor:
First the model number
The whole compressor
The acumullator
Accumulator ---> comp. connect (a 12mm copper pipe)
The rubber stand on wich the compressor stands (its very flexible and when you push the compressor a little it "flows")
The compressors:
On the left the Danfoss SC10B, R12, LBP, 250W engine wich will be used in the II stage and on the right the Sanyo from the I stage
dayum how much did those suckers cost u
everything costed me in total 750zl...
the compressors costed me about 400zl total... thats ~100$
Damn, §§§§, §§§§, i cant find that mother §§§§ing leak and its making me crazy :brick: :brick: :brick:
i dont have any R22 left, the system is in bits beacause of ONE §§§§en leak :brick: :brick: couldnt it occur on one of the easy sericeble parts ? like the connection between the filter and the pipe or smth like than, NOOooo it had to be the condenser :brick: :brick:
damn take some pics of it lol i wana see the fury its causing!!
If ill find a leak and if its gonna be only one leak ill simply take some fins of it, sand the pipe to clear copper (with a sander) and seal it... but i dont even dream that it will be so simple, think about multiple leaks...
:brick:
:brick::brick:
u could drop the thing in water and see were the bubbles come from ;)
Great Minds think alike:D
there is always the soapy water trick, im sure you know about that one by now. ive heard of some people dumping their entire system in a swimming pool, which sounds like a great idea if you have access to a swimming pool.
Ive cleaned it with water... this condenser is hopeless... Im thinking of buying a one for a car, its about the same size and 3 times thicker...
Ok, found one, 5x more efficent :D it costs 100$ and its gonna be some REALLYYY hard work convincing my dad to buy it :D
During "free" time ive made smth. for my cascade/computer..
A new baseplate for the mobo etc. :D
The construction:
The wood is 2cm thick and absorvs sound very well
The sound mats:
Sound absorving mats 2
:D:D:D
Cost:
-1$ Wood
-0$ Sound mats (made out of packaging materials)
Total cost: 1$
Effects:
Completely inaudeble Western Digital WD800JB :D
Love the Antec True Power 480W, its so damn quiet.. Love this hdd also its very quick but works like a chain saw...
The computer in total is now completely inaudeble, fans works @ 5V and dont produce any sound (hand picked- the only thing my computer wich is hand picked :D)
sweet howto/walkthrough!!! :slobber:
to bad the compressor broke down, hope you can get a new one.
The compressor didnt broke, the condenser did
Ok ive visualized my evap with some paper, a pencil and a red marker ;p
Some overview:
I wanted to make an evap wich had as much copper --> freon contact as possible, right above the cpu so a classic maze design wasnt sufficent, it could give me freon right above the cpu die but the surface where the freon was over the die wasnt sufficient in my opinnion... It would be good if the cpu had a 2x2cm die but its only a dream :\
A hollow block also wasnt sufficent, the freon was in the possible best contact with the copper right above the die, the amounts of freon were sufficient and it didnt flow anywhere pushed by the vapor being produced when it was boiling. The second big problem was te fact it could work in only one position... The last disadvantage in my opinion was the fact that it doesent work too good if the freon is injected as a mist (when using a cap tube its injected as a one stream- a no go wthen using injectors as they produce mist)
Ok, so heres my idea:
Its inspirated with waterblocks, mainly Morphlings MK4 waterblock, its first copper revision.
Using a micro fin design right above the cpu die we maximize the surface area next to the die, the surface area @ copper --> freon is as large as it can get near the die.
Thanks to the much bigger surface it can work with a mist. It can work in 2 positions (when you'll se the primitive design youll se), vertical and horizontal when using a cap tube, combined with a injector instead it can work in any position beacause the mist covers the fins firmly...
The freon could flow through the fins to easy but if the spacing between them is bigh enough and the load per mm^2 is lower it doesent boil so violent and stays between them + the bottom is shaped so it acumulates near the pins...
Ok, enough of this BS, some pics ;]
Hope i didnt make any goofs beacause for the last 72h i had about 9h sleep ;p
What do you guys think about it ?
Ok, its time for some real sleep ;] See ya in ~10- 12h :D:D:D
damn.... :\
berkut
some good ideas my friend.the evap isnt bad idea.you are on the right track.you need mass and enough area to boil off the liquid.
you are doing well.keep it up.:D
pc ice - we make isolation wich is hermetic and doesnt conduct heat, its a chamber for the cpu and evap only wheres no air = no humidity
look here: http://phase-change.com/index.php?ac...s&id=25&page=1
ok, thought about some stuff- subcooling...
To reach those damned -80C temps. ill need some hell'o'mighty subcooling in the II stage... So heres the plan ;]
Im gonna use a 10mm ID flexible hose (hope bowman reply's) and through it will go a cap tube, a really oversized one, its needed only as a "flexible" hose wich will suplyy the injector with freon. But as bowman said- a cap tube inside a only 6' long hose hasnt got enough subcooling power, its surface is insufficient. Cause im gonna use a rather thick cap tube i wont have the option to coil it around some pipe and run it through the pipe as a spiral.
Heres the big plan ;]
Why not cut a 8mm pipe in litle rings, lets say 2mm thick and solder them on a cap tube every 10mm ? They will increase the surface area at least 2-3x (they will work as fins). They will also work as a inner shell so the flex hose cant kink if we bend it to much by accident. The stiffness of the hose shouldnt change a bit exept for the extra one from the cap tube.
And hers the tricky part: how to connect all of this. The beauty of this system is its simpleness... the diagram:
Berkut...this is a truely awesome "walkthrough" done with great skill and detail. :) You have inspired me to get off my Bu** and build something! Thank you!! ;)
The coiled tube on the right side is for stress relieving, when we bent the whole thing stress occurs (the cap tube is streched or crushed and we dont want it cause it weakens the joints) and we can freely tighten the flares w/o any fear the cap rotating cause the coil absorvs these forces also.
The performance enchancers are these 8mm rings made of copper pipes ;]
Or how about this? You could get all but 6" of cap tube inside the suction line the bit between the drier and entering the copper part of the suction line. This was going to be my master plan for my mk2 build but ill share it now :)
I reckon you'd only need 12" - 15" of 1/2" copper pipe to get enough of the cap tube inside the suction line.
What do you think?
Can you not get any1 to supply parker hose to non-trade either?Quote:
Originally posted by berkut
Im gonna use a 10mm ID flexible hose (hope bowman reply's)
]JR[
ok here is what i have.so far.
fitting i have on order.
and hose i have ordered
That fitting sure looks like those on my hose:
aha the part on the right is a flare to flare connector but i didnt want to disconnect it
wow thats a good idea for those fins on the cap tube!! btw did u ever find the leak yet?
nope.. im sending tomorrow that condenser to the repair shop... finally :O
lol damn how much that going to cost? mostly labor hopefully theres nothing really wrong!! and u better tel them u want to know where the leak was!!
I dont know where it is :\
I think that condenser is galvalicly erroded and it has multiple leaks but my dad wants to try to fix it first, i would buy a new one for 110E... wich has 5 or 6x more surface and a different design :O
with all this talk about subcooling i think we need to remember where all of that heat from the cap tube goes. i am pretty sure that it is transfered to the condenser and compressor casing adding a larger heat load on the condenser.
i cant believe 6 ft of cap tube inside the suction line isnt enough. 6 ft of cap tube is usually 2/3 of the entire length, so adding the ENTIRE cap tube in the cooling mix wouldnt yield more than a 33% gain in efficiency if your cap tube was 9 ft long. the coldest part is right out of the evaporator, so if you wanted maximum subcooling, it would need to be cooled where refrigerant is boiling which is the evaporator outlet. somebody need to try and cool their cap tube with some other means like a pelt or chilled water. the heat exchanger would be simple for this.
Thats true but for a 1C bigger temp. on the condenser i can have lets say 10C more subcooling... (nfi what will be the difference) :0Quote:
with all this talk about subcooling i think we need to remember where all of that heat from the cap tube goes. i am pretty sure that it is transfered to the condenser and compressor casing adding a larger heat load on the condenser.
Wont argue it its enough or not, in my system i cant put all the cap tube near the evaps so i have to increase its surface so the vapour also cools itQuote:
i cant believe 6 ft of cap tube inside the suction line isnt enough. 6 ft of cap tube is usually 2/3 of the entire length, so adding the ENTIRE cap tube in the cooling mix wouldnt yield more than a 33% gain in efficiency if your cap tube was 9 ft long.
Its in the II stage, the freon leaving the condenser has ~-25 to -30C ;] No pelt could cool that ;]Quote:
somebody need to try and cool their cap tube with some other means like a pelt or chilled water. the heat exchanger would be simple for this.
I cant build a 2nd I stage loop cause i dont have any good compressor left, all compressors wich i have left are to weak...
well if you havent sent the condensor in yet I found that you can stick the whole thing in water and pump air into it using the compressor. Ive had the psi at over 700 before and let me to you, if there is a leak you will know where it is. I have been told that it can damage the compressor if you keep doing this but so far it hasnt done anything to mine and its only a 1000btu one. Also I see you are using solder so I wouldnt go as high as 700, try 300 or so first.
In the past i tested my evaps @ ~30 bar (~420psi) (using solder and didnt leak :D) but it isnt sufficient cause there are temp. fluctuations... like the leak i had- it was perfectly fine during pressure tests to crack when the temp. lowered...
Now im redesigning my cascade, ill optimize the freon flow (so minimal amounts will be needed in the I stage) - in my current design i didnt like its path, it was to narrow and there were spots where oil could separate, in the new design there's only one place where it goes up (and beacaue of the high flow oil doesent separate) - the tube between the condenser and the compressor...
The condenser will be different- ill use a water to cool it, im thinking about a 10mm pipe as it with a 28mm pipe for the water (the 10mm pipe will be in the 28mm), it will be 6 or 8m long, coaxial...
Ill add a 2nd heat exchanger for subcooling the freon entering the txv.. And few other little adjustments ;]
Ill post some new info in 3-4 days...
ok, some pics of the stuff i bought, no comments this time cause i have to go with my parents...
baseplate + condenser pipes