THIRD STAGE IS DONE !!!! :toast: :party:
Vacuuming now !
How long I have built that cascade ? 7 days ?
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THIRD STAGE IS DONE !!!! :toast: :party:
Vacuuming now !
How long I have built that cascade ? 7 days ?
Great Luke :)! Let's see some photos :p:!
My girlfriend will kill me if she reads this, but i doubt she will ever do... at least i hope so.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
I LOVE YOU! :D :D :D :D :D :D :hump::hump: :hump:
cya on sunday my friend... if our X6800 could cry for help, it would, i'm sure.
:D :D :D :D :D
Photos tomorrow ! I must borrow digicam from my lady
great, we are waiting for your entry to -150*C club :woot:
LOL no way..thats insaine. Look forward to photos Luke and hope you hit -150c
Ehh.....still problems ;( Hand valve for oil return is leaking, and I don`t have another one to install !! GRAUUU !!! I can`t get it in my town, I must order new one but it will arrive to late !
Another problem is that relief valve on I stage opens at...15BAR !!...I`m depressed...I`m out of R23 at this momment, need some R744 for I stage instead R23...
The only one thing is that oil separators are working very well, cascade worked about 2h with -135*C on evap (bad thermocouple) and no freezing or something
:) ................Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
ok, so some news from "battle" place.
Oil return valve doesn`t leak anymore ! :D
I found leak on suction line, now it`s OK !
I disconnected relief valve without vacuuming all gas !
I and II stage without leaks ! III stage testing at 15 bar.
Today vacuuming and charging with pure R14 and load test !
STAY TUNNED !
Really good news!
Yeah, definatly. Yesterday i was a little afraid of not getting this unit to CeBIT, but today it seems that we will really have to drive 1500 km 2morrow.
I'm really very happy and waiting for temps :)
1500K is nothing to worry about Symphy. Luke i wish you all the best in getting the beast to work dude!!
Pete
I hope that I can see the unit tomorrow ;) I will drive some of the kilometers..
Hahaha bring luke along and he can tune in the backseat :P
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/3_sta...e/PICT1135.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/3_sta...e/PICT1136.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/3_sta...e/PICT1138.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/3_sta...e/PICT1147.jpg
II stage temp
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/3_sta...e/PICT1148.jpg
I stage temp.
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/3_sta...e/PICT1149.jpg
Now waiting, oil frezzed in HX in stage II ;] Wanna test it under load within 15 minutes (after cup of tea).]
and no argon ! I ordered it, but some :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing people closed shop today with argon, but I told them yesterday, that I will buy it today !
very nice and fast builid luke ;)
Frozen oil is bad right?
Oh and biteing your nails is bad Luke!!
Not really bad, but it costs time :). Right now he is doing the loadtest, we will see how it ends.
I'm with you Luke ;), sitting and waiting here, even if it takes all night.
Very well done until now ;)
Problems, problem...unit won`t be at CeBIT, I am really sorry...
I stage is strong, holds load very well, -55*C rock stable !
II stage...well, I expected a lot more...sometimes it hits -115*C (!), sometimes it`s not able to hit -30...usually it`s around -50*C at the plate Hx exit...
From what I see, to flood Hx I need a hugeeeee amount of ethylene, but then , when HX is flooded (-100 at exit), at III stage I`ve got so :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing low pressure, that R14 won`t condense ! Static 15bar, when working with 2 stage on, 3bar high side pressure !! :banana::banana::banana::banana: happens...
As i wrote at MSN, nothing to worry about. You did your best and that is what really counts.
If the unit won't be at CeBIT, you have enough time to get some argon and fix that second stage... and probably some changes on third of problems occure there.
We will organize another unit for CeBIT, that's for sure, even if there is very little time remaining...
Thanks for your (amazing) try Lukasz, i know we both wish that this beast would work now, but as it doesn't - take all the time you need and show us some really cold temps, our conroe will wait until that thing arrives.
:)
from my calculations you need around 7 liters expansion tank for R14, use 80 cms of thin cap tube to connect exp tank to low side, always place exp tank higher than compressorQuote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
i still dont understand how can you guys make ethylene cascades without expansion tanks :confused: :p
I`ve got expansion tanks, for 1 and 3 stage
... you won't see me offline before 4 am, no chance :D
Sorry, insider.
Yo Luke I was afraid of this, you need to get a higher pressure going on the high side. Something like autocascading it and having propane condense or the like will definitly bring your pressure up.
that sucks about the very low pressure in the third stage.
How big is that look, maybe ya need a bigger compressor for that stage also. Sometimes low pressure means compressor cant pump enough, also what low side pressure you have?
Yes, I see that now.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
low side pressure of third stage, -0,9bar or less while HX temps is around -100. When, for example, I will open oil return valve on stage 2, then Hx temps is going up to about -70, discharge pressure on stage 3 is raising to around 11-12bar (still going up, but at 11-12 gas become condensed I think) and evap temps is going down very, very, very fast to -130. Then I`m closing 2 stage oil return valve, HX temp is going to -95-100C and evap temps is usually -13xC. If I won`t do that, HX will have -100C and at third stage discharge will be around 3-4bar...all the time, evap temp around ambient.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
I was afraid about first stage when I was building that unit, that it won`t hold load etc. I think around -55*C with 3 stages ON is pretty good ! :toast: autocascading power
Good to hear that you guys are already on your way to solve this problem :)
I'll take a shower now and drive to wirehead, he will borrow us his nice looking SC12 cascade with R23. Should be enough for the Celeron to reach 7 GHz.
Just like said... Hall 20 / C42 @ Enermax ;)
Thanks again Luke ;) I'm looking forward to play with your beast ;)
No problem, remember to take a lot of photos for me from CeBIT.
R14 is borring, I would try methane (-161) in that cascade and probably I will do it :devil:
Now you have time to play :). But, remember the Conroe coldbug. XD
I will not only take photos, i've a little "special" surprise in my mind - you will see.
And of course, i will translate the roadtrip and CeBIT video in english for you ;) (english subtitles)
thanks :)
Conroe should start worry :devil: (1k posts !! lol)
hmm that is strange. lets hope that doesnt happen when you get argon in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
if i was to ever tackle a 3 stage methane would be my only choice, r50 is in your gas mains in your country hey luke?Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
even a blend of the two gases worth a try. :toast:
Yes, methane is for about 0,5euro for 1m^3 :D pretty cheap :D
Gutted it didn't come togther intime how ever the feat of work, enginering and skill on this is amazing and i'm really imprssed Luke. I just hope she don;t go down on you and blow up in your face! fINGERS CROSSED AND ALL THE BEST
Sorry I missed your MSN message Luke, hop me a PM.
Sorry to hear it didn't work in time Luke... at least now you have a bit more time to help you finish it. Considering it's been a fast build, you could keep up that incredible pace until its completely finished :D!
Whoa, i never thought that cascades are really so complex...
I spent some hours today at wireheads house and was able to see how he tuned his "little" sc12/nl11 cascade which he borrows us for CeBIT. So much work for such a "easy" construction...
Now i read this explanations... and that's so much more complex than a simple dual stage...
My full respect to all of you guys ;)
... and still waiting for the "beast" :toast:
Thanks Tom for that answer :)
Today I will try to check some things.
About gravity, just after HX, on HX R14 liquid line is 15cm pipe placed horizontaly, to it there is brazed captube going to evap. So I don`t see any chance for liquid refrigerant, that it`s "staying" somewhere in pipe or something :|
Only subcooling on stage III is captube wrapped around suction line. Static pressure @ 3 stage is 10bar.
I thinked about adding some more captube to 3 stage.
10bar that’s around 145PSI static, that’s quiet low, I have around 180psi on my current cascade second stage, there is bugger all gas in there hey luke.
maybe have a read over runmc 3 stage, i love the pic where 3rd stage compressor is frozen
http://teampuss.com/forums/viewtopic...=asc&start=135
he had same issue at 220PSI static, chilly mentioned something about float getting stuck, i havnt read it all but if you have another read might get some good info there. it seems that you are having oil troubles and have a block somewhere?
http://teampuss.com/forums/viewtopic...=asc&start=180
Longer capillary line should enable you to condenser more refrigerant, what length are you currently using, and whats your low side pressure??
If I remember correcly, about 2,2m for I stage, about 2,4m for II stage and about 2,55 or 2,6m for III stage.
I`m thinking about adding extra ~30-40cm of captube, to have about 3m on III stage.
Suction pressure when at evap is -130*c is at about -0,2bar.
Have you tried brazing or soft soldering the capillary as well for a bit more heat transfer? Might want to consider the autocascade with r290/r14 so you don't need a oil separator as well.
i think maybe a cold trap and 2 oil seps might help.
From reading runmc post and your results it seems around -100c your oil is freezing and there comes a point where you condense all the r14 as Redwolf said hence 0psi. pitty Redwolf wasnt around to help. maybe pm chilly1 and see what he thinks.
Then when you let the 2nd stage warm up it oil melts and things run again. also runmcs static pressure was 220psi like chilly1 said yours is alot lower. When chilly was doing his cascade was having same issues as well with r14.
As noob said i guess autocascades dont have this issue because the first stage returns the oil alot better. you would also maybe change the oil in the 3rd stage compressor to a better oil that doesnt freeze.
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
I would try that option with autocascading third stage or just buy methane and try with it. I don`t have R14 anymore, only some in thrid stage with some ethylene :stick:Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
Must talk with Symphy about getting methane, it costs 80euro netto for 1,73kg, not bad price I think. Then I could do R290/Methane autocascade on last stage.
For more modifications I must talk with owner of cascade. This unit have really big potential, but need still some more work on it !
This is getting really XS but it shows how we all pull togther and help and look at other promblem during builds and work them out. I like seeing this. I can't help bt i wish you all the best in getting it to work Luke
Edit:
http://teampuss.com/forums/files/ove..._3rd_stage.jpg
Guess you don;t have to worry about having an air flow over it..hehe
That can't be good for the compressor though. I beleive that was overcharged as well. I suggest making sure you have a good accumulator to avoid problems like that.
Also if you build, you might want to try what Blaster did and install a hot gas bypass. This will help with wawrming up the evap, but it also might be possible to use it to avoid coldbugs. Possibly put a hot gas bypass on a cpev?
my opinion is different from many ppl here heheheh but i think its undercharged :)
r14 is a very high pressure gas
It could be possible Blaster, I charged unit with all my R14, I thinked that I`ve got in bottle at last 400g of it, but from what I see, there wasn`t that amount of gas.
I may be wrong, but I don't think a hot gas bypass will work as it should while the unit is running.....Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Was Blaster that did the hot gas
yes, but i have to say its Cryoteks idea... im using it on all bench units i might build.... no more need of hair dryer LOL
Right, its uncondensed warm refrigerant going back to the evap. If you could find a way to get a slow trickle, possibly on a cpev, you could heat up the evap I'd imagine while its cooling to a temp above a cold bug. Thats if you dont want to just put a CPEV with r14.
So, few changes I`m gonna make:
1. Expansion Tank for second stage.
2. This trick with hot gas bypass thru evap.
3. Buying Methane (I really would try with it).
4. Still waiting for manometers for each stage (refco, highside)
5. Will R290 in third stage freeze ? I would add a little bit for oil movement.
6. Breaking fu*cking -150 !
5) Not if you autocascade it.
5)If I won`t autocascade it, it will freeze at -130 ?
Still thinking about that methane...Well, for sure I must rebuild a little bit that third stage, I`m out of R14.
Symphy, where are you ! :D
Propane melting point is at −188 °C, so im guessing you're pretty safe even with relative high pressures.
propane will just try to pull the oil out of the oil sep... seems useless to me on a system with oil sep
But with homemade oil sep some of the oil is going after oil separator, and I thinked about using propane to carry that oil thru evap. In that case oil shouldn`t freeze in evap, because there is refrigerant which will take it from there.
Luke have you read Runmcs thread properly at under the ice? Its got info on number 5, chilly also tried that with no luck.
If you can get r50 I would vac that system and try 1150/r50 blend first before doing anything. Specially if you get a bottle you will have heads to play with. The changes you mentioned above don’t deal with preventing the oil issues, only a fix when it gets plugged. 1. sound good for second stage but only if your static charge is too high. Once you get 3rd stage working well id say you might need one on second stage, but best to fix 3rd stage with less work. Be nice to see -150c. pitty pc-ice pulled his 3stage methane cascade when he was banned here. From memory he used 0.040” capillary line or bigger and lots of it to achieve his -160c noload cascade.
....and probably -100C @ 5W :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
I had oil problems on my cascade with the Henry 5180 Helical oil separator, it was cheap, but this not very effective. Once ive changed to the danfoss OUB1 all problems dissapeared, i now have -125 no load temp on it and it can run hours like that. High side pressure 14 bar with no load, 11bar static with around 4 lts of expansion tank.
Yes, methane is priority.
I need expansion tank for 2 stage because static charge is now about 16-17bars.
I`m still reading runmc`s thread :)
luke_xe@yahoo.pl ;)
What displacement...don`t know really, I must talk with Piotres about that.
and yes, on stage 3 there is plate HX.
I would try with methane, autocascading with R290 + subcooler.
thank you Tom for help :)
Do you mean another compressor Soddem? An auxillary cooler could remove the oil very well, be it propane or something even easier to condense. Just need to put on another small condenser for it.
I thinked a lot about that cascade for few days, thanks NoL and Tom for conversations :toast:
So, I will change I stage compressor with II stage compressor, so compressor with the highest capacity will be placed on stage II (we wanna super low HX temperature).
Third stage will be autocascading Methane with R290, I will try to get good condenser for it. I will play with captubes too and tune I stage for super high load, it should hold at least -35*C@full load (II and III stage with III stage loaded), it will be enough for ethylene to condense properly.
We will spend some more money, but I think that that unit is worth it. If everything will go ok, it will be one of the strongest cascades in the world, won`t be ? :woot:
Still waiting for Symphy :)
Very possible Luke, at least in the computer world. ***Chatting :)
As we chated on msn, only first stage is autocascading.
Propane/Methane stage for cooling methane before main HX + oil carying by propane, super effective oil separator :p
Yes, you can try that on 2nd stage too. Have the 3rd stage r290 chill a HX before the phase sep. No way to condense methane so dont worry. But dont do that with 2nd stage or ur oil removal loop might get some liquid r1150 or the likes in it. Doubt it, but possible.
Yeah overall thats going to be very hard to do even with ethylene. I think your going to need r14 to condense methane properly.
Also, getting the methane to at least -60C or so would be advised before it hits the HX otherwise your adding even more load.
I agree with Tom, otherwise youve got a high pressure explosive in your hands.
I'm thinking in this units case, He doesnt have +30cc to work with.
26cc won`t be enough, right ? I only have this one, the biggest I`ve.
heh! i have finished reading :D ,, nice work again luke , i believe u ll break -150..;) ,, i like this cooling part on xs , everybody shares and helps each other...:clap:
cool project luke, i'v been away and did not finished my cascade yet, now full loaded with x6800@ 1.9xv and propane/ethylene/ethylene i'm on -60 -110 -115
soon i'll try natural gas from my house (95%methane) on 3rd and maybe we can get some more examples of 3rd metane stage
i'm tunned on this thred
:Toast:
LOL unlike the watercooling section.Quote:
Originally Posted by hey
Any progress Luke? Its been a while... I know you were out of money for better gasses, but still... any news?
I'm sure its in the works. He's basically going to rebuild it with autocascading firsts in all stages as oil separators.
So each stage is going to be a 2 stage autocascade, using the lower temp gas in each stage as the oil carrier? Damn this place is extreme.
Hahaha yes each will have an auxillary oil separating stage that will also remove some heat from that stages refrigerant before it hits the main cascading hx's.
Yes, I`m still working on that unit, but have already few more orders, which I`m doing too.
Ordered methane, I should have it around monday. (1,67kg, pure methane), all stages will be autocascading, hope we will see nice results.
Cant wait to see results with pure methane... c'mon Luke... Ricky is putting up some competition! ;)
hehe, I`ve got much more job to do, I`ve got much worse compressors (almost twice) :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Polizei
Omfg... that means so much work!! :) :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Well of course, he's doing a three stager after all. This isn't meant to be a quick job, an easy job, or a simple job.
Who doesnt love a challenge? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
Im sure whatever you pull off will be great, dont worry.
Right behind you Luke. Hope it is all god fun and not too much hard work
Of course you're right but building a 3 stager or building a 3 stager with every stage autocascading is quite a lot more work to do.. 2x phaseseps and 2x hx more (first stage starts as a autocascade from the beginning so I don't count it...) !Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
seems to me like a lot of work, and your complicating what is not so complicated :confused:
if you have oil problems just use a good oil sep and you will have your problem solved without any headaches, i suggest the Danfoss OUB1 the version for brazing
autocascading the last stage will take the main advantage of using "normal" stages, that is, being able to hold load at close to 0 psi
also be carefull not to "over do" your high stages, a stage were the HX temp is too low for the refrigerant that is condensing will have very low pressures and that will make it not hold any load
each stage should be design with an objective and with knowned boundaries, refering to the refrigerants that will be used
don`t have anymore oil problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
First I want only do third stage autocascading, mainly for oil separation and too cool methane before entering HX.
With methane under load suction pressure will be a lot bigger than 0psi I think.
I`ve got methane :woot:
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/methane/PICT1088.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/methane/PICT1089.jpg
:D 1,68kg :)
That's a big bottle to say there is only 1.68Kg in... is that full capacity of the tank? On the other hand, I read somewhere methane is quite a light gas, so that would explain :D.
Inside is 2,5m^3 of methane, bottle has 10l capacity. Don`t know exacly if there is full bottle, maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brettbeck
In this bottle metan have 200bara pressure :O
Yes, there is 200bar pressure. huuugee :D
I've been thinking of building a Auto-cascade tuned for a 1Watt load for a freeze drying system, I'll be watching this closely :)
IIRC Ethylene here in the UK is 300bar :eek: !
Normally around 70bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brettbeck
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
In the UK :confused: ? Or where you are?
Austria...
At 20°C Ethylen has around 70bar... so why should there more pressure??
Critical temperature : 9.5°C
Critical pressure : 50.76 bar
So, at 20°C ethylene can't be liquid any more, because of that the pressure will be much higher.
I didn't know it was as high as 300 bar (4350 psi) though, but you're proably right :p: I didn't check.
UFFF !!! Almost all day I have spent at Xtreme Cascade and that Symphy`s unit...
I finished autocascading, 3rd stage :toast: Now leak testing, will vacuum it over night and charge tomorrow with R1150 + R290 for test.
BTW, I brazed captube to suction line with silver :)
After first fight.
II stage isn`t cold enough for methane, -100C only with third stage working. I will try to cut some captube from that stage and recharge it. On II stage is still 8000btu compressor.
Next, third stage autocascading R290/Methane.
1 bar suction pressure / 16 bar discharge --> -137C on evap.
I will fight with it, but propane is doing wonderfull job :D :D After 3h run no oil freezing :D :D
Sorry to hear that Luke, just maintain contact with your buyers.