I have one DDC 10w with my own modded top, and 2 18w with petras top, all ok, all with neoprene or gel underneath, but i rest mine on their sides... maybe that helps dispell some of that heat you guys are referring to...
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I have one DDC 10w with my own modded top, and 2 18w with petras top, all ok, all with neoprene or gel underneath, but i rest mine on their sides... maybe that helps dispell some of that heat you guys are referring to...
This is how I had mine mounted and there is a 120mm Yate D12SL-12 blowing directly on the sinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...04largeir9.jpg
yeah, I've seen that pic a few times and always wondered it that helped :stick:
guess it didn't with the first... hopefully better luck with the second one :)
Well it wasn't running hot that's for darn sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan
well at least you have a new production batch pump. hopefully good long run.
is there anyway to mod the pumps so we can monitor the motor speed like 3rd wire fan speed,, know what im sayn
There is an rpm feed off it, the blue wire! I'm looking at water cooling the base of mine, i got 6/7 of them to do so i think it;s a must need to do job!
i have a d5...
Now that is the way to do customer service. More companies would be smart to treat people the same way as DD did you.
good to hear:toast: maybe they where folowing the thread lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
Thanks septim,Quote:
Originally Posted by septim
The labeling on the 01/07 production pump is very different then my previous model. It does not have as much information printed on the label.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
How can you tell which production you have?
Take a picture of the impeller and post it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
There will be those who have no problem with their DDC-2 and those whose have died. Honestly, there's no reason to throw away your pump. Some are just unlucky to have had theirs failed. There have been many D5s that have failed as well. I've had my DDC-2 running fine for over 8 months, with an aftermarket top. Does it mean there isn't a problem? Maybe not, but likewise, just because a few pumps have died (Maybe 1% or less), doesn't mean there is a problem. The fact is, the DDC-2 is the best DC powered pump to date. Imo, these failed pumps are just lemons, and doesn't mean all pumps will fail in a matter of days/months.
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5...26largedb2.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4...27largedd2.jpg
Thanks!
Now, isn't that the impeller that everyone thought was the old style? Weren't the new pumps supposed to have an impeller with a smaller hole?
(Actually, it's my personal opinion that the small hole impeller was an old design...but I'm just speculating.)
I put a PetraTech BabySink Large on the bottom of mine, seems to be working much better, it still gets warm, but not hot as in bubbling the gel...(The heatsink is tiny though).
My DDC with Petra's top failed as well. I was filling my system with water and after perhaps 3 minutes the pump stops and I hear some strange noise. I could smell burned plastic, I believe some electronics may have failed. I did not run the pump dry. Also, when I checked it it still showed 12V although the resistance was too low (U=RI).
I sent my pump back to PTS and I hope I will recieve my new pump soon. Many thanks to Quoc and Alex :).
IM
As I mentioned previously, Laing's US branch is going to be doing a silent transition over to the new blue impellered pumps once they're out of the red/orange impellered DDC-2's (though there could be a period of mixed shipments).Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
Alex,Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
Is the blue impeller an improved model and if yes how so?
Oh sorry...missed that somehow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
Now, a smaller impeller inlet would boost head but drop flow...does Laing have new specs for pumps with these impellers?
As far as reliability goes, only time will tell (though, the ~5% failure rate that's been observed with the current ones have practically all been DOA/dead within 48 hours... so the long-term reliability seems to be good). There may be a small performance increase but, again, they haven't sent me one yet so I can't say for sure (working on that, though).Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
*edit* The only "official" specs that I've seen for the new pumps has been for experimental/prototype/modified versions but I'll ask for stock numbers.
I had a DDC-2 (orange impeller) experience periodic start-up failure (jarring the pump would start it most of the time) around 90 days ago and I went out and bought a replacement DDC-2 so that my loop could run while I RMA'd the original pump. The replacement was the same batch and impeller version as the first and ran flawless up till this past weekend. I never did get around to RMA'ing the pump for one reason or the other, so it sat on my desk.
This past weekend, I noticed that the 2nd pump would experience occasional "squeaking" for short durations. I couldn't have that so I drained my loop and opened up the pump for some debugging. I found a very small amount of metal shavings stuck to the impeller (the bottom metal part) and cleaned those off. While I did this I also cleaned out the 1st pump (that experienced start-up failure) and noticed a very small plastic fragment in the impeller housing. Cleaned everything up, but instead of putting them back together like normal, I swapped impellers between the 2 units and used the original DDC-2. (I did it for !@#%%-n-giggles more then scientific method)
As of yesterday, I have experienced no startup failure. So there are a couple of changed variables here but to I would suggest anyone experiencing startup failure with their DDC pumps to perhaps look at cleaning the impeller and the housing as a last ditch effort to fix the problem. Maybe debris in the housing is causing the impeller to "stick".
In an email to their tech support he stated that..."The Failure rate of the DDC is less than 1/2 % ;so if you are experiencing more’ perhaps it is the application or installation".Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
When I asked about the new "blue" impellers this is what I got..."I have no idea what you are talking about ;blue vs orange impellers".
The 5% figure is based on my own observations, my own observations are based on a relatively small sampling of pumps (vs. the total number produced), and, therefore, that failure rate that Laing gave you is likely a more accurate representation of the DDC product line as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
Figures :rolleyes:Quote:
When I asked about the new "blue" impellers this is what I got..."I have no idea what you are talking about ;blue vs orange impellers".
Thanks to a phone conversation that I just had, I should be receiving one of the new pumps within the next week or so.
watercool your pumps, if they get that hot it makes sense [to me]. same with the m-atx sli motherboards, not enough cooling is probably causing the failures
Please let us know what you find after receiving the new pumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
Thanks...
Ugh, my Swiftech MCP355+Petra's top just died.
when I came home from work I rebooted and thankfully Speedfan alarmed me with several "flame/burn" icons.
The pump won't start up anymore (after only a week of duty), the pump came pre-assembled with the Petra top, should I open it up for investigation or would it void my warranty ?
man, I have this bad feeling in my stomach now..importing my new WC parts from the US cost me an arm and a leg already (to the Netherlands), now with the upcoming RMA it's going to cost me even more. Hopefully my mainrig hasn't got any fried hardware...
That really sucks, how old is the pump ? I am running the same one :confused:
Opening it won't void any warranties. My ddc2+petras also stopped working after the first week. I never opened it up but I gave it a few taps on the desk and it started right up again. Had a bad feeling running it after that incident, but it's been troublefree for about 3 months now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryb47
The pump ran for only 8 days, and it's rather new too:
manufacture date: 01/07
part no: 71730 (not that far apart from Sigfever's DDC)
oh well, I just dismounted everything and I'm back on my stock aircooler (everything seems fine yay), thank god I still kept it - really can't be bothered to install my old pump now...
Sorry to hear about your pump. I would open it up and see if by chance something got under the impeller impeding the movement. Let us know what it looks like.
It seems like a lot of us are having issues like this. I remember thankfully mine did it after a power down. Seeing how these instances are all from the first week of running, it could be that the design somehow manages to get a nasty air pocket stuck down there, which would make sense seeing how it'd be not long after initial setup. I gave it a few (gentle) blows and it came back to life. I did take it apart a bit later and so no signs of damage (other than a wet pcb for some reason, which could also have been it..).
OK, so I opened my pump: the 2nd pic pretty much tells everything
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g5.../mcp355_01.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g5.../mcp355_02.jpg
I remember Petra posted some pics of returned ddcs with burnmarks too, but I can't find that thread now. I guess I'll bug the shop for RMA *sighs* The circuitboard seems burnt pretty severe, it's all over the place. I didn't do anything weird with the pump, it was just sitting there flat at the bottom of my case.
I opened it up to find... a few mm of air between base and the PCB. Now tell me, you people think a heatsink will conduct a lot of heat away from the PCB? And a fan? The whole damn thing is shut! At least take off the bottom part or something if you're gonna try using a fan, gosh.
why do people think they need to cool their pumps?
Haha may have something to due with the fact that some of the pumps are catching on fire lol.
Or the fact that people are stating that the Petra Gel is bubbling up from the excess heat? If I put mine back in service I WILL shoot the before and after temps with my infrared Raytek and use a surface mount probe with my Fluke 52.Quote:
Originally Posted by rbd89
Well, if you care so much about cooling your pump, why don't you take off the plastic base and throw a fan on?
Man hearing all these horror stories, if my two pumps every quit on me I will sell the two Petra tops and go buy an Iwaki.
It seems to me that the D5/MCP655 is a tiny bit more reliable, or is it just that fewer people have D5s that one does not hear the gripes as often. I haven't had a dead pump... yet.... And this is precisely why all my loops have pump redundancy.
All DDC/DDC+ with modded top have higher flow rate compared vs stock. This is obvious to anyone.
What is less obvious, that modded DDC/DDC+ does MORE work at the same time, i.e. it has HIGHER power consumption compared with stock. It does consume more than 18W, at least more than non-modded pump. And electrical circuity inside the pump is not expected to sustain that high load for the prolonged amount of time.
That is the reason for numerous failures of DDC/DDC+ with modded top. That is probably the reason why DDC with Petra Top, being the the most powerful version out there, tend to fail more often.
Interesting concept. Would be interesting to put an ammeter in line with the pump to see what kind of current it is pulling, in stock form and with different tops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cronos
Does the DDC+ fail more often than the DDC?
Another thing is that aftermarket tops change the force distribution on impeller.
Tops like Petra's gives higher perpendicular force component, which may affect reliability and results in starting problems. At the start, the pump probably consume significantly more than 18W, and higher perpendicular force acting on impeller results in prolonged starting and prolonged circuitry expose to the very high current.
I personally have mine hanging from the roof of the case by a little wire wrapped around the outlet hose.Quote:
Originally Posted by sreedx2
So it's free floating to prevent vibrations and give it better airflow..
But now that you guys mention it I've never touched the bottom when it had been running for an extended time so I'm not sure if mine is getting hot or not....
Wouldn't Alphacool tops do the same thing?
Yes, but to the less extent. It should be more reliable, but anyway it operates out of specification.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
And seeing how small the performance difference between Alphacool DDC+ and MCP655 and how big is the
price difference, i am starting to reconsider this part as well :)
I know of DDC dying even when unmodified, but it also holds true for all other pumps.
Cronos... where to start... :shakes:
While you do bring up a couple points that sound very believable / plausible, you obviously don't know much about the pump, its capabilities, or various parts that are available through Laing.
First, yes, the custom tops do increase maximum flowrate and slightly increase current draw. However, Laing has tops for the DDC series which are tooled with larger inlets than mine and provide even higher max. flowrates (at the cost of head pressure) and power consumption with no change in MTBF. Clearly, increased flow and power consumption isn't an issue, else Laing wouldn't be confident in providing such a part. That aside, while the custom tops do provide a large maximum flowrate increase, when in use in a typical water cooling loop, you're only seeing an increase over stock of between 0.07GPM and 0.6GPM (obviously, it depends on the parts being used... but the performance difference between mine and the Alphacool top is not nearly as large as you're alluding to). As for power consumption, according to tests that Laing did, at 1GPM there's only a difference of 1.6W between stock and my top (a difference which decreases to 1.46W at 2GPM). The components can handle it, especially when you take into consideration that the overshoot at startup is about 4A (48W).
The failure rate information that you're gathering based upon the reports of individual forum members is grossly skewed.
Anyway, I'm working on a complete work-up of the current (orange/red impellered) DDC-2 with various tops and the new (blue impellered) DDC-2. This time around I'll be going pretty far beyond what I did last time and, let me tell you, there have been a lot of design changes implemented with the new DDC-2. Anyway, I have work to do.
@Petra,
Alex, I am glad that you are testing the old vs new impeller pumps. I would like to see the design changes that they made to the impeller, they either discovered a design flaw or found a way to increase the pumps performance.
The extra work that you have been doing is up and beyond your call of duty and we do appreciate it. :toast:
@Petra
Keep us updated :)
How can you tell if your pump is not working? I mean before bad things start happening to your rigs innards. Is there a way to monitor the DDC-2 so that if it slows down or stops you can get a warning of some type?
Erydin
The pump has a 3-pin tach. output that you can use for impeller RPM monitoring. Hypothetically, you could set your computer up to treat a drop in impeller RPM (below a specified threshold) the same way it would a CPU fan malfunction/failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erydin
I have speed fan execute a program called super fast shut down which turns off my pc almost instantly once my core temp reaches a certain levelQuote:
Originally Posted by Erydin
I was going to set it up so if the pump rpm slows or stops .. but they always fluctuate so I just chose a cpu core temp which is higher than my cpu temp would ever get to once the core reaches that temperature my computer shuts off.
I also tested this first with a lower temperature and just turned off my rad fans to watch the program go to work .. :)
I got my DDC's yesterday and been playing. Had one set just pumping round on it;s self. I've done the 18w mod too. It got to 34.5c and then i though sod that. Thats it sat in my V2000B middle floor no fan or anyhting in the case and wth about 16'' of hose to make one loop...
Cooling i think is needed
18W mod, can you elaborate on thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Pete
PCB REV 3.3 has 1 blank solder pad, join the yellow feed over and you get 18w.
See here
UK seams to of only just got the new revs and not sure about you guys states side
I gotcha, I have no 18w already :)
It works, it's fun and just make sure you got hose in the water not in ya crutch as my kids would not stop going on that daddy had wet him self!
18 is £60+ here and a 10W was on offer for £32 and 2 mins with soldering iron i'm happy.
Just miffed one came broken on the mounts on the side but it as been used as has water inside it
I remember reading here a while back that someone hooked up the 3-pin tach. output to a T-Balancer and used the T-Balancer to monitor the RPM and shut down in case of emergency. I could only find the T-Balancer for sale in the U.S. here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=20837
Add me to the list of people with modified tops which died...
what happened to yours, was it 'new' too?
I really can't decide if I should replace my DDC for a DDC, or go with a D5 now..
I'm not sure how old it is, but I've had it since September (bought it used). It has the red/orangy impeller. Been paired with Petra's since October, just died today.
I booted up my PC at lunchtime today and noticed it was awfully calm in my radiator(what attracted my attn was the sound of the pump trying to start). Haven't taken it apart yet, but I'll do that when I get back from work tonight.
Huh, I whacked my pump with a hammer and it started right back up.
sounds like what I did to get it started too
Is "REV2" in the "Danger Den - DDC-12V REV2 "PLUS" "
http://www.dangerden.com/store/produ...5&cat=4&page=1
refer to the new revision of 18W DDC (with new impeller and circuit board), or just to the new DDC revision with 18W (as compared to 9W) ?
Add me to the list of dead Laing pumps with a petra top. Bought it in Nov. 06, installed in Dec. 06, died tonight at 4/1/2007. PC shut off due to CPU temp. I hope this bad pump didnt fry my e6600. Sent an email to alex at Petra. I hope to get a new one, but will the new one just die on me too? My 2 year old DD pump has been going strong on my other system.
I have my replacement DDC-2 w/ "un-modded" Alphacool top ( I ordered a new one which DID NOT come with rubber isolation bushings! :mad: ) running in my rig now. I chose to mount this one with the impeller up and have a D12SM-12 blowing across it. I mounted it in the back of the case in front of the bottom fan over top of the power supply, yea I know if it were to leak I WILL let the "Magic Smoke" out of the power supply. :eek:
Even though this fan puts out more cfm than the D12SL-12 that was blowing on the bottom of the prior mount, the bottom of the pump from the prior mount was much cooler.
My ddc 2 <Laing DDC w/ Petra'sTech DDCT-01s Top Combo> die in 4 days
I recive from 28-3-2007 now today it die already .
use for 8-10 hours per day .first time i not have see this topic . I Order & pays already . anyway i read this topic seem 5% die but why happen to me T_T . long way to buy <I live in THAILAND> .
OMG what i have to do . :confused:
Mine stops if it dosent have a 120 mm fan in front of it, dont think that has anything to do with miss usage!
and I have to Buy a new one so I can sent the old one to RMA.
Cant be bothered to send it back and change back to air.
Simply a waste of time.
I think it has to do something with the pump itself, not the tops.
The old 18w DDC I had became very hot when running, but the new one I have is cool to the touch, it's had no problems at all for a while now.
Laing won't admit to it, but I'm guessing that's one of the reasons why they went ahead with the complete redesign of the pump's motor for the DDC-3 series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maviryk
*edit* when I get back to San Jose, I'll shoot an e-mail off to my contact to double check if the MTBF for the DDC-2 is a continuous runtime rating or not... I have a hunch.
I ordered 2 DDC+ at seperate intervals, both fitted Petras top last week. One works nicely that is silent, the other sounds like it has rocks inside or the bearing are shot.
Completely random.
Most certainly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
Also, i think that under certain conditions the pump with aftermarket tops and high ID tubing may has prolonged power drain much higher than typical 18-24W.
The pump drains around 48W at startup, then impeller is rotating at low speed. If, for some reason, impeller is stuck, or takes long time to spin at full speed(typical for high ID tubing/high water capacity loop), it may result in pump motor overheat and possible damage.
By the way, having two pumps in series reduces load on each pump and increases their life expectation.
Well I got my replacement MCP355 today, hope this one will last longer than a week :slapass:
hopefully a few years at least.
whack the pumpQuote:
Originally Posted by shikuva
it should go again
If my replacement dies anytime soon I will be going back to my trusty D5 until Laing get get their act together.
50k/hrs MTBF must be a magical time in a land long forgotten. :) Or was it supposed to be 50hrs MTBF? :eek:
Any updates :D
So far (knocks on wood) the DDC-2 replacement is chugging along. But I am looking at the Iwaki. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosfer@tu
Same here, my replacement DDC has been running fine for a week now (my first one died after 8 days though) *knocks on wood
before I never worried about my pump dying, but now I'm constantly checking my temp sensors... :stick:
first i have to say sorry for my bad English
for me now Petra's send a new DDC2 for me Great work for that point
& also i don't wanna make it die again plane for use fan 120 CM for cool the pump ^ ^ so diffical make the plexi like that don't look nice just try for fit in CM Stacker . Hope fully this way the pump not going to die soon <not cut plexi
for make air flow yet>
Would be interesting for some one to machine an aluminium Commutator housing for them as a heat sink and see what that does?
Easier than that would be to externalize the electronics. Thats some cheap nasty stuff in there and it could seriously use some beefing up.
My Laing DDC w/ Petra's DDC-02 Top Combo died overnight during testing for leaks. No leaks found but a burnt smell of plastic in the room. :-(
ouch on that.
Retierating, cheap nasty stuff.
cleaning the housing may be a good idea, but I never figure out how to take out the impeller???
it just pops out .. it is held in by a magnetQuote:
Originally Posted by ign0
I got new pump today from Petra's <Thank a lot Quoc Ngo> . thinking about bigNG :confused:
that's even worse than mine (see post 134 on page 6) mine ran for like a week before it crapped out. but then you're lucky I guess it broke down that fast, nothing more frustrating then having your loop up and running and think it's fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by primer
DDC+ is a much better pump for watercooling, disregarding the apparently lower reliability.Quote:
Originally Posted by soccerswim8
how noisy is the D5 compared to the DDC's ?
also how much of a benefit do you get going with ddc 2 vs D5
First one, I really don't know (I've heard some people say D5 is louder, I've heard some people say DDC is louder), second one, depends. With a very free flowing loop (1 block, 1 rad or something), there shouldn't be too big of a difference. As you start to throw more and more restriction in, the D5 can't keep up, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by sreedx2
My D5 at max speed 5 was quieter than my DDC2 in its original top. The D5 has much less vibration than the DDC2 so that might explain why.
Funny thing, that... If you check my original pump testing thread, the results that I gathered showed the opposite. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r
As the pressure drop incurred by the cooling loop increases, the pumps (D5, 50Z, DDC-2) all get closer and closer (as far as flowrate goes). The differences between the pumps are more pronounced with a moderately restrictive loop. Now, I could draw up a spiffy diagram with PQ curves and such to show why this is... but it's late.
well my DDC-2 with PTS top decided to stop last night too after one week of proud daddy WC'ing.
What to do....
I wonder if this will become the longest thread in XS.
welcome to the club Jeff :bsod:
I start to wonder the failure rate... seems too many?
Dang I got my DDC pump from Petra's with the top last week and won't be building my system until next (not this) weekend at the earliest. Hope my pump lasts.
when I came back home today and turned the pc on (has been off for a few hours) the pump wouldn't come on until I whacked it a few times. So it's not a heat related thing
Good thing I got that training in the Navy or I wouldn't know what to do!
Waiting for PTS to open up and see if I can get any help...