Hmm...Why would the power dissipation depend on conditions ? Temperature will definitively, OK....Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
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Hmm...Why would the power dissipation depend on conditions ? Temperature will definitively, OK....Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
Sorry, and I don't mean to be rude, but you CANNOT measure low DC currents accurately with a clamp on ammeter. I sold them for many years from Fluke and AEMC. They rely on an IC in the clamp to try to offset magnetic influences from other sources, and are not that accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
And, upon further reflection, WHERE are you going to intercept the current going ONLY to the processor with a clamp-on or shunt to measure only the current being used by the processor? It's better, I think, to extrapolate the processor power dissipation by emperic means, such as we propose by comparing test temps with processor induced temps.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvshark
Anyway, it may all be moot. If we tune for 300w and only dissipate 250w, it would only lower our temps, correct?
And I have no doubt that a quad could generate 300w if pushed to the limits (that's why they call this Extreme Systems, ya)?
photo of it pls!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by {.bLanK} GoD
i got some condens but dunno theyr capacity, is there any way of calculating?
i was thinking of using 2 condens with an mp14fb...
gr,
q
WHY? why shoulden't i risk it i don't seem how i could destroy it please explain :slapass:Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Drag, please read the thread. The point of the thread is that Vapo's and Mach's (more so vapo's) are dying under the load of overclocked quads. The units cannot take the load.
thanks, in that case all buy a blue orb 2 :D
In my experience, clamp on DC ammeters have never been real accurate, regardless of their claimed specs. Breaking the circuit and taking the current through an accurate dmm is the best way to get accurate readings. But I don't know how any readings at the atx power connector would be valid anyway, because I don't know how you could determine how much of the 5v and 12v is used by the cpu, how much is being used by the NB, SB, fans, onboard lan, onboard audio, etc.. Even the vcore voltage regulators will dissipate some current in the form of heat just doing their job, and that would not actually count as power dissipation of the cpu.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
I think NoL and I are erring on the high side trying to tune for 300w, but you start kicking the fsb and vcore on a quad, and the little beasties do generate some heat!
http://xtremesystems.org/forums/show...=129043&page=2Quote:
Originally Posted by quintus
Post #35
There is a way to calculate capacity using pipe length, diameter, effective fin area, fins per inch. and probably other variables. Dammed if I know though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
I got this clamp meter from the local "ebay" at U$S 10 (retail cost in the states is (U$S275)
Prova CM-07 True RMS Clamp Meter specs
http://www.isre.com/images/newproducts/clamp8.jpg
And I have access to a quad core 6600 under water, if you think this clamp is good enough I can try to measure at a determined V.
Give me some days and I will be back with the info, the quad is not mine, but from a friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
I have the QX6700 and I allready ordered a Vapochill LS to cool it, before reading this thread. My bad.
I'm a total noob at phase change cooling and any explanation of 0.36 12ft capilary tubes with xxxxx condensers gets me very confused.
All I want to know is how far will I be able to overclock without damaging the LS? Will I be able to overclock at all? If needed be, who/where can I mod the LS? I live in Romania btw.
If I can cool the compressor's shell, will it be of any use? I'm sure we could use a couple of these for that. A couple of sets that is.
I could also fit some extra fans inside the LS unit. Make a sandwich out of 2 fans and the condenser. Would that help?
Thanks
Don't worry terente, you'll still be able to overclock with the LS.
Under high overclocks and vcore though, you should keep a close watch over it initially though. If you find that it's unable to keep up with the heatload created (and you will find that the temperature of the display will slowly creep upwards) then you may need to back off a little so that the unit can deal with the heatload.
There is a safety system built into the Vapo's control system which you can manage in the software. Setting the 'safety temp' to something like -10 will ensure that your processor get much higher than about 20c or so, and the system would shut down completely. Then you can watch over it later on to see where and how it's shutting down.
The heat being generated by Quad core cpu's under load and high clocks IS high, and higher than than these systems have been set up for. However I've already expressed my belief that it's not nearly so high as 300w, but likely closer to 230w at most, at least for single stages and their ability to allow for overclocks and vcore.
I do recommend running the fans as high as possible, but no other 'mods' that you can do will make a great deal of difference. The highest fans will give the greatest condensor capacity and that's about all you can do.
If you find that it's overall capacity is close to the max heatload that your cpu put's out, you can decide if that overclock is enough for you.
If you do decide to have it modified, there will be modders around you to help, both in Europe and in the UK. I'm in the UK myself, so if you can locate one that's closer it could save you some postage costs if it came to that.
Anyways, running a unit beyond it's capabilities, or right on the edge, can lead to problems with it's lifespan over time, but if you're careful about how you overclock your cpu and ensure that the cpu is generating less than it's capable of cooling then it should work well enough.
Cheers
Gray
Quote:
Originally Posted by quintus
bump!!! maybe should i post some pics?
thx
Is there a build thread for this unit you all are working on? I'd be interested in seeing it from start to load testing... it would compliment this thread very well :)Quote:
Originally Posted by harvshark
Sure I'm waiting on the .036 capillary at the moment and I guess I'll keep a picture log posted somewhere.
Hate to double post, but Boshuter here's some opening pictures for Harvsharks unit. This is just the SC12MLX and the condenser with the 6.5" axial fan attached, Accumulator as well. I should get the .036 by the end of the week from Runmc.
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9702/dsc01483fm5.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1383/dsc01484pp3.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8880/dsc01485my0.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9262/dsc01486xp8.jpg
well get a 30 % clampmeter to be with in 3% is easy... get a length of wire long enough to wrap around the clamp 10 times 1 amp actual will read as 100 amps.Quote:
Originally Posted by {.bLanK} GoD
FOr extremely accurate dc ampmeasurments at low currentsuse a millivolt meter and known resistance inseries say a .01 ohmresistor I=E/RQuote:
Originally Posted by harvshark
Capacity is a function of the mass flow through the block and weither it all boils off in teh block so goal#1 move as much refrigerant through the block as you can and make sure it all boils off using only the heat from the loadQuote:
Originally Posted by quintus
SC12 MLX use a 0.031 cap tube at 110 inches and set the system to have a 25 deg F suction line 1 inch from the compressor and a little frost on teh compressor with a suction pressure of R507 @ 0 to 2 psi under the load of 140 watts actual.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
NOL I dont know why you have this idea of 0.036" stuck in your head. It will cause more problems than anything else.
Basically capillary tubing should be kept int eh 6 foot to 12 foot range to use 0.036 on a 1/3 hp compressor and get the proper evaporating temps you would need more than 12 feet
0.031 or 0.028 is fine... 0.031 if you need more HX space for the larger displacment compressor
Quote:
Originally Posted by johann
0.036' and ost of flash gas is what i think will happen.
As chilly said 0.031" and 0.028" all we need for these tiny systems. From a builders point of view best to go with 0.028" as its cheaper and at the correct length do the same job as 0.031". i cant get 0.028" thats the main reason i use 0.031" :stick:
0.07mm is about 0.028 in
I wonder how oil will flow in that huge accumulator.
in such small systems like we do its really not a problemQuote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
the velocity in the accumulator will be far to low to push the oil up.
blaster: because the system is so small with such little refrigerant flow it is a problem when you use an accumulator like that.
ok let him build it and we talk laterQuote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
Other little idea's coming into play here, the accumulators just bent down at the moment and will be coming up to a horizontal plane before its finished. As for .036 I will be testing that vs 6 feet of .031. If .036 12ft is truly 6ft of .031, it should work better to have the longer subcooled length.
I think its time to be a bit more innovative, too many are stuck in the old same patterns.
And: Velocity on its own doesn't push.Quote:
the velocity in the accumulator will be far to low to push the oil up.
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
just saying, take this into considiration, if it will go wrong it might be to late for the compressor and it will take quit some time before it will happen.
@nol: you know what I mean
Personally I already was going to have the accumulator mostly horizontal, a slight tip but less than 20 degrees.
the accumulator of a rotary has a very small hole in the bottom were the oil can go in, I recommend making something like that. Even when you have the accumulator horizontal there is lots of room for an oil pool
Yes this is true, as for when I said experimental, I'm considering trying to burrow a capillary in to the bottom and run it to the top.
There is nothing wrong with trying experimental stuff, otherwise we'd get stuck and never end up progressing. Looks like good stuff and if all else fails we will simply prove that this concept won't work for us.
It should though, and I DO know those using .036 for higher loads with small units.
6-7 of 0.031 / 0.8mm capillary line is about what ya need for the feed on the first stage of a cascade. Good luck though and look forward to your results on holding 300w. Even if it holds 200-230w thats a nice effort. Noob can we have some pics and info on this load tester you will be using. What sort of cold plate do you use between the cpu head and the resistor load?
WHen charging these small systems keep in mind to get -60 with R507/404 we need to operate in the 3 to 5 inch vaccum region this is very low flow unless you have very large displacments, oil return is at issue as well as compressor cooling, stick with hi effeciency compressors at about 1.3 to1.5 W/W Rotaries are fine for bencing runs but 24/7 use you need cooler compressors, for instance an 18,000 btu rotary is running at 2 inch vaccum rotaries are cooled by the refrigerant as is most compressors so motor cooling is not very good due to teh flow rates, this in turn heats up the small amount of refrigerant entering the compressor to 95 to 110C causing the oil to start to break down.. the extra heat also has to be removed from teh refrierant discharge gas causing you system head to rise making the system runhotter and higher suction pressures... so not always is larger better. There is a trade off unless you can get higher effeciency compressors.
@Kayl,
I do not use a resistor load, they are not as accurate as a load cell burrowed with thermal TIM into a copper block!
For a resistor load, Id say take off 10-20watts of heat, and thats a bit closer to what your tuning for. Its also easier to insulate the load tester on a 2" x 2" x 3/4" copper block.
Maybe he means like 1.3-1.5 to 1 as a ratio of heat moved to power consumed? Hard to tell what your saying Chilly.
And thats why I'm wondering what Reg is saying :P
Incase you guys dont have this, here's a nice chart to save!
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5...ersions1dg.jpg
Guys my last phase change unit was the original Vapochill, so I guess I need some help with phase cooling quad cores.
I am currently running a Q6700 on a P5B Dlx and a X3220 on a Commando, both at 3.8 GHz with 1.6 Vcore. For cooling the Q6700 has a Swiftech kit with their Apogee GT block, while the X3220 uses a custom kit, also with the Apogee GT block. Both run at 100% load on all cores 24/7/365 with DC apps.
What I plan to do is bench with them at much higher speeds and Vcore.
The question is, what would you recommend for phase change setup?
DDTUNG:cool:
Well DDTung -
It's going to have to be a custom cooler because no commercial coolers on the market are doing well with the quad cores. They just don't handle the load.
That's pretty much the long and short of it Ron.
Something I've been meaning to post for a while now, in relation to the 'we need a better block' statements.
I've used just about everyone's blocks now, from Kayl's to Chilly's to Joe Cool's, and while I haven't used everyone's I'm getting pretty close :rolleyes:
Heat exchange is what makes tuning for higher loads easier, especially where smaller systems are concerned, we already know that. Plate heat exchangers have proven that quite handily on cascades and water chillers already.
Enter Ssilencer/@itor's evap.
http://www.picturehosting.com/images.../photo0157.jpg
Yes I know, bad pic :p:
Once you get past the 'bling factor' of the clear enclosure and LED's (and it is quite pretty :D) you get to see the 'guts'.
I didn't realise but the evap is a 'press fit' and I shouldn't have been able to get it apart easily. It wasn't 'easy' but I like to check things to be sure about them :D
Thin plates, lots of them, thin base. Very tight refrigerant return channels. Sandblasted internals. Very very effective heat exchange.
I had the pleasure of making a V2000 system for Messiah Kahn using this evap, and tuning it for higher loads even in a small system only using a long suction return line was very easy.
The amount of floodback even at full charge/no load was next to nothing. That's with the unit tuned for about 230w. Why? Heat exchange.
The head makes so much more efficient use of the refrigerant passing through it than any other head I've used, that I need less actual refrigerant in the system to make it hold load.
When you see a clear evap 'test bed' and how the refrigerant is working inside it really opens your eyes to refrigerant behavior in a system. I think it was Tyrou or one of his French compatriots that gave me that insight at one point.
It let's you realise that there's more than enough refrigerant passing through an evap to cool 5 cpu's, if we could only make use of it more efficiently.
The @itor evap makes far better use of it from my testing, and for higher loads, ie anything over 200w, I firmly believe it's the best one available at the moment. I'll be watching for others as I go, but it's behavior and the systems response in having it confirms it.
I was amazed when I got to see inside it, by how small, how thin etc and I thought it shouldn't work by everything I've come to know and use in phase change.
I was proven wrong, and was very pleasantly surprised by how effective it was. I'm quite sure that tuning for even higher loads would be possible and quite easy, and I'm looking forward to having another look at it's performance as I have another @itor evap here to test when I can get the time to work with it.
Cheers guys
Gray
Gray, I agree fully.
I see with @itor evaps on my last builds that what you are saying is completely true. I did not think about it this way but it makes sense now after your explanation.
I found on both units that static pressure was much lower than other systems I have built. This obviously means that the systems both have less refrigerant inside them than other typical builds.
I also found that when holding load (230w) pressures was lower than normal which in turn produce better temps. Normally when running this kind of load you have to charge much heavier to make up for evap inefficiency. This is a snowball effect leading to high discharge pressure, high compressor temp and bad temp at lower load. You often have to charge so heavy that lower load temps completely fall of the wagon.
The blue unit ("Monster" in my thread) holds 230w load to -35c while maintaining a idle temp of -64c and 150w temp of -40c.
5c delta from 150w to 230w
This makes you think..
Im not going to post the length of cappilary used in Monster because it will stirr up flaming and it changed it 10 times to get it rigth but I can tell you that its longer than with other systems, not an inch or 4 but ALOT more.
This say something, why does a unit with ALOT longer cappilary tubing hold 230w to a better temp than anything else I have built or most seen around here?
The cappilary used is against everything we have become used to over here at XS and completely opposite of the direction that the cappilary discussion in this thread has been heading too.
This made me realise that what I thought I knew about cappilary tubing lengths up to this build was completely way off, problems lie elsewhere, mostly evap design, once you have to go too short in cappilary you have to realise that the problem lies in the design of the evaporator since you need more refrigerant to remove the heat than needed.
We have been using ALOT shorter cappilary than is needed, even 3m or more should be more than enough to hold loads of 200w+ (If evap heat transfer is good)
Makes sense? :D
I mentioned better evap designs earlier (cant remember if it was this thread), but I think I'm going to want to test an @itor.
I certainly didn't want to say that it 'can't' be done, that is, tuning a system to 250w of load with another evap.
It's just that with the @itor evap design, it's very easy, efficient, effective.
If you can't get the efficiency to happen at the evap, then adding enough heat exchange on the suction line to allow for a heavier charge is the only safe and effective way to do so.
Johann, it's nice to have your experience to show this as well. Pretty amazing though wasn't it? To be able to charge it for such high load and not be fighting the pressures and condensing temps that go with heavy charging. It was great!
I'm also looking forward to seeing Chilly's new evap. He's mentioned some of the revision changes and I'm hoping to see this kind of result on his ones too. Evaps are getting to a point where they're quite good, and the technology behind their manufacture is maturing as well. Hopefully this will trickle down to us poor folk that have to rely on other people making evaps :D
Cheers
Gray
PICSPICSPICS!!!!!!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Gray Mole
I think what he's referring to is the 'project aurora' from some guys over at cooling-masters. (French site).Quote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
I've seen the video before of a clear evap and it shows how the refrigerant behaves once inside :).
I had a quick look but couldn't find the video :(.
VIDVIDVID!!!! :D anybody? :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brettbeck
AURORA PROJECT by ZytrahusQuote:
Originally Posted by s7e9h3n
http://www.cooling-masters.com/image...ages/ext11.jpg
---> VIDEOS http://www.cooling-masters.com/articles-34-9.html
---> HOMEPAGE http://www.cooling-masters.com/articles-34-0.html
:toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by before
Now thats a beast.
wow one hell of a rig :) great vid clips
Drew has been using long long capillary tubes for ages, seems any evap works well for him, bakers, mine and im sure any others as well. Its all in the way you build the system, the way you charge it and also vacuum it.too short capillary line and ya get flash gas, high discharge temps and lots of flood back. Also air flow through condenser is very inmportant. We all have alot to learn yet. i guess drews 20+ years in the trade just gives him a big head start
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...d.php?t=245340
Performance:
Blend... -53c @ 200w -60c @ 150w / sub -70c unloaded
R402a... -45c @ 200w -50c @ 150w / sub -65c unloaded
R507a... -42c @ 200w -48c @ 150w / -60c unloaded
Drew recommened me the .036 ;)
yes he get good results with 0.036 that and chillers, but his favourite is 0.028":DQuote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
0.036 will work for you, but so will other capillarys just at the correct lengh. I dont think 0.036 will do the magic, more the length you use and how you build the system and your practices ie in building each section of the system, vacuuming etc. Have you got any results with the 0.036 yet noob?
Not yet, it should arrive tomorrow or the day after from Ron, but I wont be around till next week.
Chilly said his new evaps should be ready in a few weeks...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Mole
I've said it before and I guess I'll have to say it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
Drewmeister's performance from units seems to be great, but he has little to no involvement here at XS and is unwilling to give much away as far as his own gas blends and construction is concerned. The man is so 'proprietary' that he asks people not to open up the case and take any pictures.
That's fine, if that's how he wants things, but to bring his name up and say that 'Drew can do it' well it doesn't hold much weight with me, because it does me, and no one else, a whole lot of good.
I've heard about the man giving advice here and there, but never anything substantial. Never anything about his own setups that make this 'magical' difference giving him 5-10c advantage, if in fact it actually does exist.
Anyone wants to worship the man, that's cool with me. But at least Jesus tried to show people the way, all I see Drew doing is bragging and selling, and giving the odd little bit of advice that doesn't do a great deal for anyone.
Besides all that, his performance results don't show anything at high (over 200w) loads. That's where things are breaking down, and evaps and/or construction methods need to develop.
I don't mean to 'have a go' at you Kayl, or Drew either to be honest. It just get's on my nerves whenever his name comes up because he does very little for the community at all, or the global development of PC phase change, other than what can line his own pockets.
Drew wants any respect from myself or any of the other phase guys around here, it would be nice to see some detailed testing, methods, and maybe just a little bit of positive input into the phase community.
If he doesn't care about that, it's fine with me. But if he'd rather do his own thing and live apart from the community, then we may as well leave him out of things and try to do our own development.
Sorry for the rant, but everyone else in the phase world at least made 'some' effort to share some knowledge. From PC-Ice to Chilly1 and everyone in between they've all posted about builds, and given insight into development that's benefitted everyone. Drew gives nothing away (telling someone to use .036" captube isn't exactly 'gospel' is it?) and doesn't want to be involved here, so maybe we should just respect that, and leave him out of things.
/back on topic
Gray
I agree Gray. I will believe his results once its explained propperly. Its weird that even non blended systems is supposedly way colder than what I see every day. Its not like tubing, the way you charge, vacuum etc etc could possibly make one unit 5-10c colder than another. In my mind its a myth to be proved.
Back on topic// :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Mole
Quote:
Originally Posted by johann
QFT
/back on topic/
I joined XS the same time I joined EOCF and Ive completly stopped posting here at due to the bull$hit that comes out of here. Pple are some eager to make a buck here that they dont think twice as to slander somone elses name or taking somone elses ideas as their own. I sujjest you all pay a little closer attention to what goes on at EOCF and do a search for all of Drews threads. That man is more knowledgable and eager to help then any person Ive met here at XS. He has every right to keep his blends and methods to himself and away from you. If you want proof go and pm his customers and ask them first hand. I wouldnt think twice about it if this was the last post I ever made in the phase section at xs after seeing stuff like this being posted. Some of you are decent so sorry to lable everyone this way, Ssilencer i have much respect for and esp kayl. that is all.
thank you
edit by runmc
Nice to hear all this from you guys, I was telling that for more than a year, but I didn't have the opportunity to get first line world builders to back me up.
@itor will be happy to hear it.
Thanks very much.
'That man is more knowledgable and eager to help then any person Ive met here at XS.'
'He has every right to keep his blends and methods to himself and away from you.'
Why does that seem like a contradiction in terms?
I think you missed my point, Sneil. I wasn't slandering anyone's name. If it sounded like it, then all I can do is apologize.
Drew does his own thing over there, and while I'm sure he's very helpful to his customers I've never actually seen a post giving any real insight into how he does things. That's his right, like you said, but over here and XS we tend to share our methods and systems pretty freely, regardless of whether someone copies or 'borrows' that information.
So if you find it pathetic that I like sharing information freely with people that I suppose I could call 'competitors' then I'm sorry you feel that way. I like to think of the 'phase change crowd' here as family, and while sometimes we argue a little (like any good family :D) we share and share alike.
I felt kind of awkward about that post, because I really don't like to start flame wars, or talk badly about anyone, because I'm not like that. Besides, I really don't know Drew but it's because we don't run in the same group I guess. I think it would be great to be able to chat with him about refrigeration because that's what I know and love, but it's not something he seems all that interested in doing, as he'd rather keep his methods and such to himself.
Anyways, if anyone feels slighted by my posts I'm sorry about that.
So yeah, back on topic...
Ssilencer, yours and @itor's work deserve all the credit it's due. Because of your location I think that your evap hasn't seen as much publicity or use, but I think it's well worth looking at using for any load range, but fantastic in use on higher loads.
I've been working towards an easy system of heat exchange to compensate for evap inefficiency allowing for higher load tuning, and I'll post a thread on it when I'm done. I'm hoping that some improvement to the suction line, and condensor efficiency, will make it a lot easier, as Quad's are going to be seeing more and more action and it's nice to have a good method in place for any high load requests.
I'll be watching how things work out with your .036" tuning Noob, I hope you have some good success with that.
I'm looking at using .031" myself for anything much higher than 230w, though with the @itor head .028" and 230w or so was working quite well. That was about the higher limit of the capacity without using an accumulator or SLHX setup, just a longer suction return and extending the captube 'wrap' the full length of the suction pipe instead of focusing on wrapping closer to the evap. Subcooling is important, but extending the heat exchange further down the line seems to help a lot with preventing floodback.
Cheers
Gray
slight edit by runmc
I have only been hanging around in the phase forum for a few months now, just having taken a swing at it with installing a LS on my quad core (which some of you may know did not work out, I am now working on a custom build with NoL), and I have never read any posts by Drew, so I cannot comment on anything other than his abscence.
I CAN comment however on the open sharing of information, suggestions, comments, and the results of experimentation that those in this forum freely post for the benefit of all who visit (or camp out) here.
Everybody seems to enjoy bouncing their ideas off of one another (you wanna try WHAT?) and sharing their successes as well as their failures.
NoL started this thread at my suggestion because of an increasing number of problems with users trying to phase the quads coming to light, and all of the information being shared here will eventually help NoL to help me, and the other builders to help other users.
If Drew, for whatever reason, chooses not to participate, or wishes to do so elsewhere, that is certainly his choice to make. It seems to me that all Gray said was that he did not share his information here, so we'll just all carry on without his input.
edit by runmc
.036" has just arrived, so the build will continue monday afternoon due to a weekend of awayness on my behalf. I'm also working on a possibly new evaporator design that heads back to our roots.
Eleven's evaps were sum of the best, but I think this was mostly due to the horizontal building vs the vertical building we're all using today.
Drew is all for sharing his ideas and techniques. He goes in to great detail on all his projects ceeping secret only his special blend, which all the power to him for keeping that his little secret which there is certainly nothing wrong with, and certain compressor models. He goes into great detail explaining things and hapily answers questions anyone has in very descriptive large paragraphs. The reason what you are saying is upsetting is because you are not a part of his forum and only seem to be upset that he is not a part of yours. If you doubt his credability join eocf for yourself and join in his discussions and ask questions to your hearts content instead of whining about him doing his own thing and choosing not to be a part of xs. I havent seen any of you over there except for a few who barly post a word anyway or else only post their own work and dont bother to comment on anyone else's.(aside from kayl who's been there a looong time) edit: and n00b ;)
If you are going to make claims back them up. Lets see some proof. Show me a compressor that is quieter then danfoss nf9fx, consumers the same amount of power and moves much more heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by johann
Epion I don't think he's claiming that their are compressors which more more heat than the Nf9fx with less energy consumption or more quietly, simply that it doesn't move enough heat for quad cores. That's not to say that the replacement compressors run as quietly or consume less power. At a certain point however in order to move enough heat, you're going to have to trade noise for capacity. I believe in one of Johann's latest builds he used a 1/2HP Aspera which he was quite happy with and had superior capacity in comparison with the NF9FX though was probably not as quiet.
Chill down lades :D
What's the problem?
Nobody said that Drew is not one of the legends of phase change cooling, he has his place, and he likes to be there, so be it.
Gray mole and Johan are one of the guys that tried more different evaps than the rest of us, so, I take the word of this guys as valid as Drew word, all of this because someone share his testing and experience, and someone else got picky about it.
IIRC Gray mole and Johan used Kayl evaps in the past and for sure in the future too, Drew never got an evap from us yet, so, I think that the fact that he didn't say nothing about our evap is just because he is a wise man that like to talk from experience and not just for seing a picture.
I will try (and I was trying for some time) to send him an evap so he can test it too, problem is that @itor is a man that is confident of his own work and doesn't need the approval of nobody, so he never sent a waterblock or an evap to nobody for free just to heard what he already know, because he has his own profesional testing bench even if he doesn't post his own findings for obvious reasons.
so I'm the one that likes to see his work all over the world getting recognized as one of the best waterblocks and evap designers because he is my friend and I feell proud of him, any problem with that?
WHO here has at least 8 years designing waterblocks or evaps under a solid knowledge thermodynamics foundation?
Also, almost all the rest of the serious blocks are cnc machined, and you have to make some trade offs in detriment of performance because machining time is expensive and large qttys demands more machining time. He take more than a complete working day to do just one, and off course it is the most expensive evap because of that.
so, anyone has a place to be, evaps made in series and premium stuff.
BTW, check out his new showroom page
EDIT
Sneil is a great guy, and as almost all of us that likes to build new things and try to get every bit of performance, we have the cooler unit, and the hottest blood when we have to defend our beliefs and friends.
EOF Vapour subforum is the second on my list of visits just because Drew is there.
Anyway, you don't find guys like Gray Mole every day, sometimes I think he got nuts to be willing to share anything he got over hours of testing, every one of us keeps some secrets, IMHO it has it's reasons, you took the time and effort to get some extra bit of performance and share every bit of it makes the way too easy for the rest, so, knock your head if you want to get it, at least a little, keeps you young :D.
Embarco (Aspera) does have a fine line of "High Efficiency" compressors. Jinu and Johann have both used them and are very happy with them. These may be the next generation of Phase cooling compressors to handle the quads.
I don't know Drew but I would sure like to meet him. I may have to go over to his place and visit or maybe he could come visit us.:) Now it would be nice to get this thread back on topic with a friendlier atmosphere. Thanks for the cooperation everyone. :)
Had about twenty Turkey's tonight (in celebration of Friday), and I gotta say, vertical is not a good thing. Wouldn't it be better to keep as much of the vaporization at baseline (isn't it where most of the phase change dynamics take place?). I think a lotta advancement would lie in being able to use silver evaps. In conjunction with very fine fins inside the evap.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
So, can I take the comments I made about your last post back? You seem to have calmed down a tad. I am new to this field, and Shirley not an expert (of course I'm serious, And don't ever call me Shirley) (If you don't know the reference or the humor, sorry).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneil
Anyway, I might check into your board to see what's up. Can you link me into any discussions of failed LS's or quad-capable units?
With respects.......Harv.
k everyone back on topic hehehe.
So has anyone had the chance via customer to figgure out what cartridge head load/ resistor load = quadcore
that or have access to a quad core to bench them selves?
I already talked with a friend that has a quad, he don't want to mess his mobo with insulation and stuff, but I will have access to measure power consumption with my clamp meter next week.
Hold up there Ssilencer, if I'm not mistaken, TDP doesn't equal power draw. I think the most accurate method to determine quad core heat output is a direct comparison between an oc'd proc and a load tester.
Check page 4, 5 and 6 please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stapler
^I read the thread as it was being posted.
I guess the way I see it, is that the overall power used is going to be greater than the heat produced by the processor. So if you take a measurement of the power consumption and tune your units to that value on a load tester, you'll end up with a slightly over charged unit. I suppose you can make up for that with an accumulator, and it might actually be benificial in the long run if future processor produce slightly more heat than current quads.
lol yea sorry I went a little hysterical on the first post there but I was a little upset.:rolleyes: Anyway Drew is tuning his DD-X unit to 225W-300W now and will be doing some extensive testing so you all can take a look. Here is a link to the unit, make sure you go through it all and see the detail he goes into explaining everything. It'll be reopened soon with the new load test results. Anyway, carry on with the thread.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by harvshark
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...d.php?t=231428
thanks for the link buddy :D I'll subscribe to that one :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneil
Actually he was:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stapler
"Some companies have very efficient compressor ranges that have higher displacement and lower power consumption than the popular Danfoss models."
Can you link a data sheet that would prove this? I have looked and tried embraco compressors and wasn't horribly impressed, mostly with the noise. They also seem to be made very poorly and not neat, the shell is not regular and symmetrical and neat like danfoss.Quote:
Originally Posted by runmc
I just had another look at @itor's page. It's been a while since I first saw it, and it looks better than ever.
I feel kind of bad now, because maybe it seems like I was insulting Kayl's or anyone else's evaporators. That wasn't my intention, only to give Ssilencer and @itor the credit they were due. Kayl's evap is very very good, and right up there in performance with the latest Chilly1, LD's spiral, Joe Cool's stepper etc etc. It's just that the @itor evap outperforms them by a fair bit especially where high load is concerned.
It's still got limits, like anything does. I found that at 230w I started to get enough 'leftover' refrigerant that I'd be looking at an accumulator and some added heat exchange on the suction line to be able to increase capacity greatly, but it was very interesting to see how much more load I could work with so easily.
Over 200w, things become very challenging, and while some of the builders might not like to say that in public, it's very true. At higher than that, most evaps are letting a heck of a lot of refrigerant pass and we've got to do something with it before it get's back to the compressor. Even @itor's will start to show the same thing, just at a higher level of capacity.
If you want 250 or 275w of capacity you've got to take that into consideration and plan your pipework accordingly.
In transport and commercial refrigeration you don't find this kind of issue, but the evap can be much larger, and you're able to plan things so that overcharging isn't much of an issue. The system size is much larger, so there's 'room' for the refrigerant to be vapor well before it get's anywhere near the compressor.
We're dealing with a tiny contact patch and little more 'supporting' surface area in the body of an evap. That means we've generally got to try to flood it as heavily as we can to get enough refrigerant to contact that spot and then we've got to 'clean up the mess' afterwards by trying to evaporate it before it gets to the compressor and breaks it.
That's all got to be done in an incredibly small space that'll still fit into a 'standard' size phase case. More pipework isn't really an option anymore, so we've got to get smarter.
Wrapping the captube in our systems enhances subcooling, yes. It also turns your suction line into a slhx, and while that's been working ok up until now, it's starting to become inadequate for higher loads.
Better evaps are going to help, but even @itor's evap has it's limitations.
So increasing the heat exchange at the suction line is the only way to deal with it.
Improving the rest of our systems, the condensor, the captube methods, they will all make a difference in capacity. But when it comes to the end, the evap is going to take out the heat it can, and we're going to be left with a bunch of refrigerant in liquid form that's going to have to be dealt with.
The compressor can really help in getting better temps at certain capacties but as it's been said before, a compressor doesn't make the capacity happen, it just sucks and blows. A compressor has a given capacity at a certain temperature with a specific gas. A compressor's capacity isn't set in stone, as it's just a relationship.
I only see 2 choices for increasing capacity greatly in our systems.
1. increase the suction volume to a level allowing room for vaporisation.
2. increase the level of heat exchange on the suction line to a level that allows for the needed increase in charging.
Using a better evap helps a lot if you can live with it's level of efficiency, sure. If you want more than what it wants to give, however, then you've got to change your system so that you're taking into account the refrigerant 'waste' and cleaning it up before it kills the compressor.
Hope that all made sense.
Gray
Oh, and yeah the NEK series of compressor is very good. I'll have to try them in their larger models, as i've only used the 6-8cc ones. Still quite good, and very quiet.
I've had the pleasure of seeing some of the more experimental compressors available but I had to sign something saying I couldn't talk about it :(
The noise levels and performance that's in the future is pretty impressive though, but I have a feeling that the ones I got to see are going to be out of our price range for a good long while :rolleyes:
I'll always love Danfoss' NL series though. I just wish they weren't as expensive as they are. I've had more powerful compressors, and quieter compressors in similar cc's, but nothing with the combination of quiet AND powerful that these have.
Cheers
Gray
Well actually I'm not trying to prove anything. I just know what I've been told from two of my trusted friends. Here is a link to a very new line of Embraco NEK compressors ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by epion2985
I would really like to try these compressors myself. I will be as soon as I get one ordered.
Thanks, I was just very curious, thanks for the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by runmc
Thank You for the apology and the link. There is nothing wrong with constructive dissent. That's called debate. That's what this forum is about. I'll peruse the link. Thanx again. 1HP rotary??? Cool! (No pun intended.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneil
Since I used NEK 2150GK I will never use a Danfoss NL11F if I have the choice. Simple as that, its far superior in all ways
I've used them both as single stageres and as second stageres on cascades....NL11F simply can't be touched.....;) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by johann
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
_
Had the time this morning to view the thread in the link you sent. Very nice, lots of great pics. Drew's work looks top notch. I thank you again for the link, I registered on eocf and I am sure I will stop by once in a while to see what's going on there. Even if I do more lurking than posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneil
Great sounds good:) glad to have ya, make sure you do post every once in a while :D
Then you are saying hipro5 doesn't know what he is talking about? :slapass:Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
Two contradicting opinions here.
Hey now, no need to try to start a fight ;)
Hipro's opinion is shared by many around here. The NL11F and the NF series for 115v is well known as being the best around for it's combination of low noise and high power.
I've always had good success with them myself.
The NEK series does look good though, and I'm looking forward to testing the larger CC versions at some point.
Technology moves forward, always does. The fact that the Danfoss compressors have been 'king of the hill' this long really says something about how good they are. One day, though, like anything, something will come along and take the crown away.
Will it be the NEK Aspera/Embraco compressors? I don't know, but whether it's that or another type of compressor it's got to happen eventually :rolleyes:
I've already posted about my feelings that a compressor only dictates temperature at a given load, and not the overall system capacity itself, so it's not even really 'on topic' because for the most part you can still use a 1/5HP compressor and tune for 250+ watts, you'll just get a higher temp than a larger compressor.
Cheers
Gray
Talking about Watts.......
One of the old Chilly's evaps which is made for VGAs - it has on it's side the suck and it's captube - can handle about 350Watts at -82.7*C on an esdee's cascade at full load at ALL the time......This is the max temp drop it has.....On the most 3D, it works -87*C load.......
ALSO as I said some pages back, elevens evap can handle a Kentsfield at 3850MHz and more than 350Watts all the time......
Now eleven made for us - as we told him - a 5cm evep instead of a 4cm, so as to test it too....;)
Nice to see you around hipro5Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
You talk about a chilly evap handling high load on a CASCADE and what was discussed until now was single stages, there are no much info posted here (this thread) on cascades, just SS. And the experience on SS is more than 100 to 1 in favor of SS. BTW, that was a load tester at 350watts?
Nobody told that any evap can't handle high loads, but how efficient handles it.
You can do an evap of 10 cm tall, it is not a matter of height, it is a matter of internal surface and design.
As always sory for my bad English :P
I'm talking about a 5cm base and not height.....All of nowadays evaps have 4cm base....;)
No heatload, only a 8800GTX at 1.82VCore and 918MHz/1215MHz....Do you think it's less than 350Watts?.....:D
Talking about cascades: I have seen one thing....IF a cascade can "handle" without "going down (up)" a temp, a single stage can do it too....R1150 is a "soft" gas....R410 is a "hard" gas and R507 is a "midlle" gas.....
A SS could handle a QUAD at a certain temp.....
Mine - moded Prommie - can handle about 250Watts at -46*C evaps BASE temp load......ALL the time.....
Talking about cascades: How many could handle a QUAD at 3850MHz?....Not LN2.....A cascade at -82*C full load.....:)
My idea is to build an evap like eleven's which "flows" ALL the gas on the base....and not from up to down and visa-versa.....ALL the gas ON the base.....:)
The design characteristics of a cascade normally make higher loads FAR easier to tune for.
It's the slhx setups and generally having more suction volume that makes it easier to tune high load into a cascade.
That's part of what I'm trying to adapt into SS coolers, some of the cascade techniques not for low temp, but for high capacity.
When it comes down to it, I wish everyone would try an @itor evap, and just tune it into a system the same way as they would any other high end evap.
I think you would be able to see what Johann and I got to see with respect to the pressures, load characteristics, and general performance of @itor's evap.
I'll have to try Eleven's Evap as well, it does sound very good too.
When it comes to anything over 250w though, it doesn't matter what head you use I think, looking at upgrading the suction pipework, and general spec of the units, is the only way that high loads are going to be dealt with correctly, without massive floodback issues.
Cheers
Gray
actually hipro5 has to be more sorry for his english! :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssilencer
sslinencer you are right about the cascade Vs sstages...
as for the evaps design i have many ideas the last couple of months...
1) i don't think base thickness must be more than 5mm. i have the feeling that with large bases we try to remove heat from a point too far from the cpu core itself!
2) mass mass mass... i think mass is important in a weird way.
an evap with more mass has more heat buffer to deal with the load until the systems low side responses.
for example -100*C idle, apply 200W --> instant drop to -89*C then system stabilizes at -93*C
but when overclocking, if i start my 32m at the limit MHz for -93 i will get an error when the phase instantly drops to -89, so i have to bench in the Mhz where i am stable at -89*C! i need to chop that delta between instant drop temp and i think this is how mass helps high loads
3) so we need mass, but not base thickness, so what we did is increased the diameter
(ssilencer that was what hipro5 was talking about when saying 'increased 4cm to 5cm' ;) )
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8...4871jp2.th.jpg
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/2011/dsc4857ed0.th.jpg
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/5...4878dh6.th.jpg
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/2803/dsc4855zl6.th.jpg
this new baby from our friend eleven will be tested next week on a cascade that we know how it has been performing with the same design/base thickness 40mm version! (hope we find something :D )