Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
at 100W the difference is less than 3.4C
and remember, it takes three apogees to equal the pressure drop of a single storm.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
at 100W the difference is less than 3.4C
and remember, it takes three apogees to equal the pressure drop of a single storm.
Not the way i read the graph. At 3w the apogee = .17c/w and the storm at 3w = .12c/w. At 100w that is exactly 5c.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
each shaded line is .002c. the storm is .13 plus 2 shaded, lines, actually a hair above that. so i rounded to .135
apogee is .17 subtract the storm of .135 equals .035c/w difference.
.035c/w x 100w equals 3.5c difference. so .1c higher than my estimate.
and this is with a small 14mm die. duals, quads and chips with a ihs are significantly larger.
EDIT: the more you work and do the math on these graphs, the more you see that ALL waterblocks perform extremely close to each other, and in real world conditions, perform almost identical with single block loops.
but then you factor in multiple block loops, and quickly see how the restriction of a storm becomes much more of an issue when you have 1 or 2 gpu blocks. then it makes you question if the storm is worth double the price, and more of the hassle of clogged jets, and its impact on gpu cooling.
I love how the 6002 still beats the apogee! huray for that:D
Not playing up the Apogee, but is it me, or is that Apogee on miserable 10mm tubing and the Storm on 1/2" or 7/16" ? The graph says so. Wouldn't that have some bearing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jochenp
in most real world loops, the 6002A would most likely very ever so slightly beat BOTH the storm and apogee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
wow, you are right!
why they would do that im not sure. they used the smaller fittings for the apogee, and used the bigger fittings for the storm.
that most likely skews the results in favour of the storm.
and according to this chart. the fitting size has a large impact on the flow rate and pressure drop.
now im quite certain that something fishy is going on here.
10mm = 3/8",
Clay, yes, I did mean a block where the water does have direct contact with the die/ihs...
This is still the only thing making sense to me.. as it is virtually 0 restriction (compared to Storm), and you are loosing a layer of tim... which could result in better performance...
So, what I am drawing up here... is a block where the water has direct contact with the IHS... as the guy says it is nothing new... perhaps a central inlet, with some large id holes (or any other type of accelerator) so that the restriction isn't that great... lastly, he could also devise somehow to improve the surface area of the IHS (although that would be difficult).
I really doubt it's direct die cooling....he's made it clear that this will be a very easy install and compatible with all CPUs....and as future-proof as any other block out there.....
Kinda stymied.....
Oh well, let the waiting continue.
oops you are correct, I was reading the graph as 12c instead of 13.5c lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
First of all its not colder, in fact chances are its exactly the same temperature as ambient air.Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewxcv
Lets start with the fact that you can not feel temperature. Your skin can feel the flow of heat not the temperature, there is a big difference. The reason the metal feels cold is its pulling the heat away from your hand very fast and you feel the flow. The part where you "think" its cold is psychological and based of your past experiences and reasoning. This is why people often mistake cold and hot things.
For instance. My physics professors wife was making turkey for thanks giving. She was at a hot stove cooking with coils red hot. She put her hand on the frozen turkey and flipped out because she thought she put her hand on the stove. She was looking at the stove, and thinking heat when in fact she touched a very cold object. Likewise my friend grabbed a red hot pipe when brazing and thought it was cool until he realized it was red hot.
When you go to the bathroom at night the tile feels cold. When you step on the rug it feels much warmer. In reality they have been lying there all night and are pretty much at thermal equilibrium. The difference is the tile pulls the heat away from your feet a lot faster. Rest is in your head.
A lot of people notice that in the summer they feel hot at 70F in their house while in the winter at same 70F they feel cold. That is because int he winter your skin can sense the flow of heat from your house outwards in to the atmosphere. When in the summer the case is opposite.
Now I am no bio-physic but this is straight from my physics lecture, and while I may not understand fully how your senses are connected to your physiology or your psychology, for now I'll take the word of a guy who has two phd's on me.
Lucky me. I just picked up one for my chiller needs :)Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
epion...whoa....
I think you missed this part:at the end of his post....(highlight to see it)Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewxcv
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vapor
ROFL!
i know i deffiently missed that part of his post! good thing you pointed it out too. i was thinking maybe he rode the short bus.:p:
LOL, ok I admit it, he got me good.
Didn't see the grey. Enlarged for us blind folk.
------------------------------------
mnewxcv:
"think of it this way, when u touch a piece of metal its always colder than the air it seems. so its definitely easy to get a block that will cool to below ambient.
just a joke fellas
------------------------------------
:clap:
Lol, I got it from the start
But yeah, after all, I am the uber leet smartass :devil:
Yeah I've got a 6002A too, and I'm very glad with it.
It's build like a tank, I don't think I'll ever manage to break it (too bad, another excuse for buying extra watercooling equipment gone to smithereens)
Jochenp
Direct/IHS would save him some headaches in manfacturing too. He'd only have to make a few sizes of seal plates. Athlon XP's would probably be out. I'm thinkin' that too. Some large multi-jets squritin' on the IHS. Doesn't look like "Spode" ever got that far. He sure did alot of work though. Top of a Sunny-Delight bottle beatin' a DangerDen block. Hehee the idea certainly has merit. Still a better pump would have some better effect though maybe not as much. Better rad would still would mean better temps too.Quote:
Originally Posted by D_o_S
For something like that beatin' a storm shouldn't be any problem. Especially if the processor on the storm still has the IHS. Ambient load temps is a really big claim though. I'm sure he'll optimise his platform for that.(No 50% overclocks LOL)
Edit: Humm Increasing the area of the IHS could be done with some gunsmith's metal checkering files.(lotta' werk but maybe worth it)
He said large enough heat exchanger it will cool close to ambient. Well a bong is a big enough heat exchanger and mine did result in a 10°c temperature drop over a Bip3 with 3 fans on it.
I think its definetly possible to build a block thats atleast 2-3°c better than the storm but is he doing it? Maybe maybe not he posts alot but hey I would like to see him poop or get off the pot.
Seems direct-die cooling is what he's about, but how practical is that?
It sounds like a recipe for disaster to me
MILLED 6002A here.. I need another :D
edit - pics of milled 6002a ;)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ghlight=milled
Direct/IHS is more practical. It might even werk better as the surface area is larger. Easier to seal too. There will be disasters. But there is allways that chance. Also most new processors have soldered IHS's. So I doubt it direct/die. But direct IHS easier to make,mount,seal. Yer' no longer worried about IHS being as flat and as smooth as possible anymore. (Rougher is better)
I registered and posted over there..........MW cleared up some things but we'll just have to wait for the evidence. I personally doubt very much that there will be a block which will be able to beat the Storm by a whopping 10C but i've got an open mind.....
Seems to me the only way to 'think outside the box' and to best all current blocks is to really remove the block altogether. Like what others have mentioned, direct die/IHS. In theory this might seem like a good idea but it may be a different animal in practice. How do you unmount the block (assuming direct die) without getting water everywhere? How do you guarantee a good IHS/oring/block seal? I suppose once the damn thing is on the cpu, you don't really need to take it off unless you are changing CPU's. And it would eliminate bad mounts and TIMs.
performs up to 10c better than the storm when ice cubes are used in the water ;)
I'm glad to see that everyone is getting a good laugh out of this and not thinking that there is a bit of truth to this.
a quote from the designer
"The amazing thing about this block is that the pump will have very very little impact on it's performance... so pump choice will be more dependant on whatever else you have in your loop, not the CPU block."
combine that statement with some thermodynamic laws and the "10c better than the storm" comment and you can safely say this guy is out of his mind.
hey hey no funny business :p: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
where have you been dude......you job is taking up too much of your time man....you'll just have to quit :D :D :D :D
He won't get 10c.(Unless he has a board sensor like mine.LOL) Mines allready 5f better than a storm and it is a storm.(Lyin' board sensor LOL)
Sealing direct/die seem about the only way to do that is about the same way Spode did it with his T-birds and Durons. He had some troubles too.
Direct/IHS about the only way that makes any sense is a precision seal plate. Mounted-sealed first to board-processor. Then the rest of the block mounted to that. I kinda' doubt an O-ring seal would be good enough. So some kinda' non-hardening sealant of some kind might also be in order. That would make it easy enough to remove. But sealing might be dicey. I'm pretty sure that's what he's up to. I'm also pretty sure that's where his trouble is..
One of the neat things is the whole thing could be made outta' plastic. Like a "Petra" pump top.
I'll quit if you pay me the equialent of what i make! :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
damn it max, we want you back :slapass:Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
I belive that a countersunk o-ring pressed against the IHS would seal very well. That's how many blocks (i.e storm) are designed and how many barbs seal. A simple direct IHS block could look something like this:
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/69/directihs1nu2.jpg
A picture of the countersunk o-ring.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4...ectihs3oy2.jpg
The only advantage with this method is that the heat has one less TIM to pass. But you could achive the same thing with a normal block on a naked core and then you could increase the surface area of the base with some structure like cups which makes it perform even better. Hence I don't think he's using direct IHS cooling.
Maybe if you used the same principle to build a direct die block? But it wouldn't be compatible with soldered IHSes so I doubt that's what he's thinking either.
I wonder what he's up to, if he's actually up to anything...
andersson.j that mock up is hawt! Yes that is exactly what I am thinking too. All I can say is that if it is a block with a BASE, it will not outperform the current top blocks.
I think it's possible to get superior cooling by using an array of heatpipes and then cooling the base and heatpipes with water. We already know from air coolers that heatpipes transmit heat better than bare solid metal. I have a design I have been working out in my head, I will draw it out and show you guys when I have time. I sent Thrilla a message asking him if he can get short (under 4") (maybe 2-3"?) heatpipes so I may actually try to build a prototype when I can afford to.
Someone should make this and test it. Any sealants out there that are waterproof that would let you attach a top like this?
or any type of gasket that has adhesive already instead of O-ring?
Still might be asking for disaster if you dont drain your loop though.
Also, why not use andersons design mixed with the storm; i.e. inlet has jets directly above the core and outlet uses two small channels that meet to form a larger outlet type deal (you could have outlet offset since modern cpu IHS is small). Jets would greatly improve the heat transfer.
I'll draw up a picture later of what i am suggesting if its unclear what i mean about the offset
Naw, heatpipes are good for aircooling but worthless for watercooling.
You wouldnt need a sealant, the oring would seal on the IHS.Quote:
Originally Posted by kemist
Why? Please elaborate. If you have heatpipes that use the right type of liquid with really low evaporation temp. Also in a design I'm thinking of you would be using a tight grid of vertial heatpipes that go through the base and are flush with the bottom that sits on the socket.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Because heatpipes wick heat away from the source - look at any heatpipe aircooler. The fins are placed on the pipes and a fan blows to cool the fins which in turn cool the gas in the pipes. Water is FAR MORE efficient at cooling a hot surface than heatpipes are.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzraelDarkangel
*edit*
Some reading for you
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=12933
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=11525
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10681
So instead normal water blocks use water to cool a metal base with various shaped channels or holes yet heatpipes are more efficent that just metal and so the heatpipes should suck up heat from the cpu better than just a piece of metal and the very efficient water should cool the heatpipes and thus the cpu even better than air or water on just a metal base.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Also have you seen the ends of a heatpipe (at least the ones in normal HSFs), how do you plan to get them to sit flush with the bottom of the base? If you can get it to work all credit to you, but it wont be an easy job.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzraelDarkangel
Could you maybe post a Drawing of what your thinking becuase I started thinking about it and what I came up with was a monster that I would be scared to put on my CPU becuase it would make the Tuniq tower look tame.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzraelDarkangel
wait is that picture suppose be a cpu IHS on the bottom or a base plate?
Ihs
Yes it will be a challenge, one end is usually rounded, on smaller heatpipes, and the other end is crimped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicpineapple
wtf..how do you plan to take out the cpu once water is in there? Not to mention one bad mount and the whole socket area is doom.
Not that big, I need more info on specific heatpipes but I was thinking it would be no taller than 3in. With a grid of around 15-20 heatpipes depending on diameter and how they are positioned, with just enough room between them for water to comfortably flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by speed bump
Thanks for the links nikhsub1. Nobody has really tried exactly what I want to do. Similar, but a really horrible implementation, mine would use many more heatpipes and water flow would be sideways, and no fins.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...album_pic2.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
Pretty good! I like that.
I think he gave his idea up in one of his post.(A draft) His has the main jet or jets centered on the top of the IHS. O-ring seal in this case would depend on how much preasure is put on the board or back-plate.(Which it would anyway) Bigger the pump, And the more restictive the other blocks are the tighter the seal will need to be.(More clamping preasure) Still the only way to know for sure is to test. I think the seal is where he's havin' his trouble. Your drawing looks very doable. But the 2# screw mounts might have trouble.
Edit: Don't forget the idea also removes the thermal resistance of the waterblocks base material. And a layer of TIM. Of course a bad mount in this case is a disaster not bad temps. LOL
Thx nikhsub1!
@ AzraelDarkangel: Here's some info on heatpipes.
Also take a look at heat columns.
I remember reading about some heatpipe cooler were the actuall heatpipes had direct contact with the IHS/die, they were kinda flat. But I can't find it again!
Thanks for the links, I'm familiar with the basics of heatpipes, I just need info from Thrilla on specific models and specs such as working temp. range and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
Yes thats totally right. Heatpipes are being used to transfer heat from one point to another. That way you can have larger fins, which result in better cooling. You need larger fins for aircooling, because the area around the CPU socket is very limited.
The only idea I came up with after 2mins is that you could build a watercooler that works like current coolers, but with heatpipes in the bottom plate and another block at the other end of the heatpipes. But that would mean the bottom plate as to be kind of thick, which is bad again to reach good temps.
andersson.j that cooler looks damn nice. I think I might give such a design a test, if I have the time to and find something to seal it right.
But I am not so sure if direct die cooling archives the best possible temps. Somehow I think that a modified IHS would result in better temps. If the IHS was made like current waterblocks are being made (for example with a #-kinda pattern to improve the surface) and are kinda thin, that would be ideal.
Well, thats basically the same than removing the IHS and use a ordinary block. lol, ignore what I hust wrote above.
Maybe someone with more physical knowledge than me can come up with some formulas to calculate the perfect cooling surface (*caugh FCG cough*)
Edit: Oh well, I was gonna post this a few posts earlier, so I am not done rading the other posts.
This is how Cray super computers are cooled, well in a way. They spray a fine mist of water on to the dye. Or at least thats what they did a few years ago when I watched an interview with their head engineer or someone like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
My IHS is thick enough that it could be checkered with some gunsmiths checkering tools. (Little pryamids) With multi jets that would probably be probably be pretty close to excellent. But someone else could have better ideas. It could even maybe have a shallow sort of impringment system Aka G-7? Expensive and difficult to be sure. I'm having a real tuff time reading my caliper but it looks pretty close to 2.5mm. So thats maybe 1mm dia holes 1.5mm deep? I guess it's best to leave it to poeple that have the tools. Going beyond that is back to a conventioal waterblock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr3ak
The disassembly problem could be solved by having the retention mechanism separate from the actual block. Think MCW6002. If the CPU could be installed and removed witout detaching the block, you could leak test with the CPU outside of the system.
I'm not sure what you mean. The IHS is replacing the blocks base plate. Out of system testing would be difficult unless someone jiggs up a pseudo mobo to mount to.
What I'm saying is you could test leak with the cpu unmounted; just hanging off the end of the waterblock. Youll have to be careful not to bend pins and yadda yadda.
It'd also make remounting the CPU with the system full POSSIBLE, although difficult. You'd have to unmount the CPU with the block attached, and keep it upside-down, level, and at the highest point of the loop for the whole remounting process. A PITA, no doubt, but better than having to drain and refill your loop with every remounting.
Also, I don't think the gunsmith's whatevers will work well. You'd have to keep the affected area very small so as not to disrupt the block's seal on the IHS. Low-grit sandpaper (de-lapping?) would work better.
And how do you propose to keep the CPU stuck to the top through all that?
That I didn't really think of. A decent adhesive around the o-ring might make it a little more leak-proof, but it'd make the o-ring a pain to remove.
So, yeah. Drain the loop to remove the block is the only option?
All of this is based on conjecture of course. And the potenial lower thermal resistance of a naked or modified IHS. Pursuing this course in 1 direction. brings us back to No IHS and conventional water blocks. Which we allready have aplenty. Interesting thread though. It has really made me think.
Example: So we decide our Direct/IHS doesn't cool well enough. How do we make it werk better? Like D_O_S pointed out.(Real early in this thread) I should have been thinkin'. We can make it bigger. Cure the sealing problem. whadder' we gonna' make it out of? Copper is Ok. Silver is better. A billet cut diamond would be best.(Maybe abit impractical though) We make this new IHS as best as we can. Cut groves or drill for jets. Or??Mount it to the other parts. Cure the sealing problem.But now step back and take a look at it. What have we got? LOL
As to the issue of the O-ring leaking etc, it may be possible to spit this block into two parts:
A lower part that is glued permanently by epoxy (viod warrantee) to the IHS
An upper part screwed to the lower part with O-rings in between. The upper part then would be fixed to the motherboard via an additional plate like the appogee.
But I see a bigger problem: without the extra surface needed to transfer the heat from the IHS to the water, simply passing a stream of water over the IHS will not be enough to absorb the heat.
The water needs a lot of surface to take the heat away. Think all those pins in the apogee for example. In the absence of those pins, a strong jet focussed to semi circular cups may be an alternative. But that is not possible with an IHS. So this is no go either.
Given what the gentleman has alluded in his posts so far with regards to his device properties:
a) will produce IHS surface temperatures very close to ambinet.
b) will have no impact on the pump selection or flow
then the only thing that comes to mind is latent heat of evaporation. It is thoeretically possible, but there would be some difficulties in such a small device. For example vaccum breaks, initial start, non disolved gases and the like (think condenser condensate tanks and ejectors). Who knows, will be a marvel of minutrization.
@Clay: I'd like to think this thread has turned away from a review of NorthWizards claims and towards a "brainstorm" (I hate using cheap marketing terms) of ways it'd be possible to outperform modern water block design limitations. IE, "What's better than slapping a piece of copper on your CPU and running water over it?"
@MeshMesh: Like phase, only using water instead of refrigerant? It's possible, but you'd have to keep it at low pressure to make water boil at near-ambient temperatures. How low of pressure, I can't say, since I don't have a physics reference handy. It seems like it'd be really difficult to keep low pressure on the CPU block and high pressure in the rest of the loop
Going back to the heatpipe ideas, Heatsinks use heatpipes to move heat from the CPU to the fins. In a water cooling loop, the pump moves the heat (hot water) to the radiator, where it is dissipated. CPU blocks are all about transferring heat from the CPU into the water, and a Heatsink's heatpipes are simply soldered to a copper base. Thermaltake made the "Volcano," and it looks like it tries to implement the ideas of a heatpipe cooler into a CPU block. I imagine it sucks.
Now, something like Asetek's Vaphochill Micro might be a better place to look for ideas. That heatsink uses what looks to be heatpipes filled with refrigerant. THOSE should be able to transfer heat better than water-filled ones, and could be used to transfer heat away from the CPU block. That way, you could transfer the heat to the water away from the block, also allowing for a surface not restricted by die size.
Reading over all that again, it seems ridiculously impractical. Something revolutionary is going to have to happen to CPU blocks (Go, NorthWizard, Go!) if water cooling is going to survive. The milled-copper CPU design has reached it's limits. Heatsinks are getting better, and phase is becoming more popular. There are still a few of us who are looking for something that allows great overclocking with low-noise, and can be done by just about anyone. Phase may be easy for those with a double-major in overclocking and HVAC, but the insanely low temperatures and the high-pressure refrigerants make it a little too dangerous for a newb like me.
EDIT: Water @ .042 ATM would evaporate at 32C
[QUOTE=oshox]@Clay: I'd like to think this thread has turned away from a review of NorthWizards claims and towards a "brainstorm" (I hate using cheap marketing terms) of ways it'd be possible to ouperform modern water block design limitations. IE, "What's better than slapping a piece of copper on your CPU and running water over it?"
This morning and last night I really thought that direct IHS was what he was up to. And truthfully it really looks that way. But when I started to think about modding a IHS to work better. It brought me to removing the IHS and making my own. From there it got sealed as 1 assembily. About this time I noticed my sig and said WTF I allready have that! As far as Norths claims go we're really going to have to wait and see.
Low pressure, or high pressure oshox.
Have the inlet close to the IHS so there is only a very small gap between them (1mm?).
You'll need pump with a decent amount of pressure, but you need that for effective direct die cooling anyways really.
What may limit spilling during CPU changes is a "quick disconnect" feature. A main inlet feeds jets similar to what the storm uses (basically holes in a plate) which shoot the many smaller jets onto the main IHS surface area. A small plate can be pulled out slightly to close these smaller jets and the outlet so that only the water trapped on top of the IHS would be able to escape during removal.
You'd end up with a multi-teired baseless storm pretty much.
EDIT - G8 "Summit" for the name? hehe ;)
That would totally work, yes. Just a mid-plate that can. But the surface area issue raised earlier does put a dampener on the whole idea, doesn't it?
I recieved an e-mail back from North Wizard:
Quote:
Hey there Joshua...
Thanks for the email, and I am well aware of the thread over at extremesystems. I have no problems discussing the block, but as you well know, that thread has been 90% bashing... very little of it is anything other than that.
In the thread over at Xoxide forums, I have given every hint I can to the people who have come over from Xtreme - ad I will tell you the same thing.
I agree 100% when people say there is no way to improve or get such a big difference in temps when you are talking about inptoving on current block design... Cathar's Storm is about the best there will ever be, he himself said he would only be able to improve upon it minimally, but the cost would not be worth it... and he is totally correct about that. I can see no way to make any changes to the way blocks are made right now, and get any improvements that would make it worth releasing something.
Now, the fact is, you do not have to follow along current lines of thinking when it comes to making a water block, and if you are able to just drop the whole thought of how they are made right now, and start over from a different point of view - start from thinking of the best way to cool, not of how can I improve, it opens up other avenues - which is all I have done.
What I am working on, like I have said, is neither new to water cooling, nor is it some great, genius, never thought of before, idea... it has been done before, just with very limited success - although the cooling aspect of it worked perftecly.
I am just taking an already proven cooling method and making it something anyone can use.
The other thing is this... I am not a huge company here... and the reality is, if I posted all my drawings and plans, the stuff that gives away what I am doing... if Swiftech or Danger Den decided they liked them and could easily produce them, what would stop them from taking it before I have a chance to finish producing them... they have far more resources and money than I do and could make things happen at a far faster rate - I would be left sitting back with a bunch of drawings, knowing that it was my idea, but never being able to do anything about it.
I don't care about making huge money off of anything like this either, because the fact is... if I bring out a block that can easily beat the storm, I could demand the same price, or more for mine, and people would happily pay it... what I am trying to do, though, is make this block, and still keep it in a fair price range... which is another obstacle to overcome... I want it to retail around the 50$ mark.
If you have ever decided to get something made, you would know what is involved in getting it from an idea, to paper, to actual autocad drawings, to prototypes - then, finding flaws, doing minor changes or complete redesigns... it is not easy, nor is it cheap - the prototyping for the blocks was close to 1500$ - of course, when being made in a production run, when all the programming has been done and the shop is running them in orders of 500 or so... the price drops a huge amount... but to get a single block done, something that is very intricate and detailed, and you can ask other people about this as well, just to verify, it is extremely costly - I have put out all of the money for everything - out of my own pocket.
Another thing.... think about that... I have been the ONLY person putting any money into this idea... no one else. So, how can it be anything other than an idea I actually believe in. I have never went to anyone to ask for support, financially or otherwise - I have been doing this on my own (well, there is another person involved in the designing part of it) and in the end, if the block works, it wil be something that i created and did out of my own pocket, and I may make a few bucks... or it will be a complete flop and I will lose every minute I have put into it, as well as all the money I have invested in it - I already know this, and I am following through with it because I believe in what I am doing.
I am not 'slamming' the Storm when I use it as a reference... I am saying, quite clearly that it is the best out there, so it is the only thing worth using as a reference. As for conventional water blocks (as conventional as the storm can be LOL), Cathar made an awesome block, and no, nothing will probably ever come out that will beat it, if it is based on the same principles all current blocks are based on, but if people want to move ahead and take cooling farther, then maybe it's time to quit thinking the way everyone does when it comes to making a water block - you look at every block out there... from the start... let me describe them, easily, for you... a hunk of copper, mounted to the cpu with some thermal paste, some sort of design on the copper, whether it be channels or pins, or whatever... there have been tones of internal design ideas, a top of either acrylic or brass, or copper, or aluminum... and some people have incorporated nozzles and all sorts of things... that is the basics of water blocks right from the start - well, I am not following any of that for the most part - instead of starting with a block and seeing how it can be made better, I am starting from the point of a hot CPU and how can I cool it using water/coolant, and how can I do it the very best way.
The fact is, I have complete competence in what I have designed and know what it does and is capable of - but at the same time, I am not an idiot and will just put the whole design out there so it can be scooped up by someone else - i have hundreds of hours invested, and lots of money - I am not about to just give that all away... I hope you can understand that.
I am not some kid-n00b, like posts in the extremesystems forum thread have called me - I am 41, have a wife and kids and make a good living outside of water cooling - water cooling has been a hobby of mine for years, and all I am doing is taking an idea I have and making it become reality... the block, once done, will stand on it's own, or will be a complete flop - and it will do that by being tested and reviewed by the sites out there that have the proper equipment to test blocks... not tested by being put on a system and temps taking... but where all variables are controlled and it is just the performance of the block being tested - where they keep the coolant the same temp coming into the block and can vary the heat under the block... where it is not dependant on air temps, changing coolant temps, rad sizes... that sort of thing... and there are a couple places out there that have a test bed that can do this exact type of testing, and they are the people who can test and review a block, and give repeatable results - those are the ones I will be happy to send to for testing - that way, when the results are back... it will have nothing to do with me, or with how it was installed, or with rad size... it will make it or die based on it's actual performance.
I am keeping any posts and updates to the Xoxide Forums... they are the forums I belong to and the place I have chosen to post anything to do with this - all of you are welcome to join and post, whether good or bad... but please, keep the slamming/bashing out of the forum - I do not mind criticism at all, but posts just to bash are a waste of time for everyone.
I do not expect people to believe... especially those who have not seen the inside design, which I have kept private for the most part, but I will say this again... if you quit thinking about how blocks are made right now, you may see that there are other ways to cool a CPU, and then may be able to see that what I have said is not only possible, but pretty easy to accomplish.
Devin Sittler
Quote:
Originally Posted by oshox
Not so much actually. Jet impengment works due to the pressure against the surface area. If you have low flow, low pressure and tons of surface area you've got a big ass deisel motor (just begging for propane).. if you have low surface area, high pressure, and low-high flow rates you've got the equivalent of a NOS fed 4-banger (it's going to perform, but you cant feed it much more) :D
Things like chemical or physical etching can be done..
Heck, the direct die idea I mentioned above would actually work ok with a pelt maybe....
If someone would tell the block designer (Devin Sittler) to mail a copy of the documents to himself he will have free copyrighting of his idea and no one can steal it because he will have a legal document dated and allowable in court so that he can prove it is his idea.
most likely he's waiting to finish his block, test it, have some unbias and precise testers have a go at it, then if its a good deal, copyright it and sell for a few...
the problem is how do you take on a company such as Swiftech if they were to copy this.....he's a one man operation and is talking about $1500 he invested from his own money as if it's a big amount....i don't think he's got time or money to chase around copycats until it's properly patented.....but you'd only want to patent something if you know it's worthwhile.......for now he thinks it is and we don't as these results seem unbelievableQuote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
Results can be predicted using modelling (CFD) before going anywhere near final production / prototype. Whether any modelling has been done, I dunno... not seen any meself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
what I am saying is that his copyright would only cost 37c and the price of the envelope and when someone tries to copy his idea he could take it to court.
Which still places the financial burden on him and more than one good idea has been swiped due to lack of funds.Quote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
I wish North had just started all this by saying something like "Hey!, I've had a real cool idea and initial results seem to indicate that it works quite well.
I'll keep you posted as progress is made."
Without the direct comparison to the Storm all of the flaming could have been avoided.
If it did do as well as he claims- and he had testing to prove it- then he could have blown his horn far and wide without being questioned.
On the other hand he's getting a lot more attention now than if he wouldn't have mentioned storm. Now hes got everyones attention so if he comes up with something good he won't have a problem selling it.
I hope that he comes up with something good, but based on what he's showed so far I doubt it.
Ive been thinking this through aswell...quite close to the ideas of j. as aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
If there is a copper base that has been impinged,then had liquid gallium,the stuff that's better than AS5 but corrodes Al. is poured into the base and impingements(on the underside) then another piece of copper base is press fitted onto that,obviously machined and then lapped after,that would definately provide better heat transfer.
the jet idea i had was similar too but, well,have you guys got an electric toothbrush?The vibrating mech thats inside that that can be modded in such a way inside a top delrin piece of a water block with all the neccessary seals and of course the ability to move from side to side on top of a jet assembly and would 'pulse' jets of water onto the base from the above.The electric for it can be provided simply from the cpu fan header.
I think you know what i mean. :)
Pulse cooling is used effectively by the fire services and is a proven method of extinguishing fires more efficiently.
Most of you will realise that whenever there is vibration,nuts and bolts do undo themselves,this is simply remedied by spring washers/springs/nyloc nuts where needed.
Phew ....
However, my moneys on the 'no base design' .
I'm surprised no one over there has asked: "what material is the base?"
Given North's repeated assertion that the target price is less than the Storm you can bet that no exotic materials/machining will be involved.
and maybe he should have gone with a simple title and not that 10c better than storm or close/near/surpassing ambient temps with his new block.
and with that line he should have finished it before going online with his idea.
but if it works then good for him, if it flops then it'll suck for him and tarnish his rep.
a 10 celcius difference under NORMAL conditions can simply not be true.
Of course, 10 celcius delta dosn't tell us anything unless we also know the delta between core temp and water temp. naturally the larger the detla between water and core, the bigger the difference you will be able to measure between a good block and a bad one. The heat output over time also matters.
The fact of the matter is that (assuming a normal system where water is rad cooled by ambient air) there simply isn't much left to improve on a block once you have a "simple" pinmatrix in place. Sure, you can allways tweak it, but the differences are going to be small.
Evne if the water in the loop had direct contact with the exposed core, I think a 10celcius difference compared to a storm would be a lot to hope for (again, given normal condition, for example going from a core temp 40 to 30 in a room with 20celcius ambient). its just not gonna happen.
-Stigma
what about
http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/6...werfanswq3.jpg
EDIT: As in how heatpipes could be used
I'll say it again, watercooled heatpipe if a waste of time.
Here's a nice pic of that waste of time:
http://www.nulime.com/img/id124174/n...-Exchanger.jpg
That's a Thermaltake Volcano 4005 Heat Exchanger. I imagine it sucks.
Now, back to the exposed IHS idea...
What if it were a *partially* exposed IHS? Say, if the cups at the Storm's base went all of the way through. There'd be problems, like water possibly fouling up the TIM, but it sounds plausible.
Combine that with a pulse-style system, like mentioned before, and a diamond-epoxy base (That sounds cool as hell) and I'm sure you could get a significant advantage over the current-generation Storm.
Wouldn't be cheap, though.
A crappy attempt at sticking a crappy radiator on a crappy water block type thing to make the whole thing more compact with tiny restrictive hoses.
The more I think about it, the more I like the direct die idea. Think I am gonna give it a try as soon as I have the time to.
OMG i'm going to through up... :sick:Quote:
Originally Posted by oshox
i'd do one better than that pic.. an entire self contained water cooler contained in the cpu heatsink (block, pump, rad).
But I forget the product name and dont have a link. There's one for sale at one of the local computer shops though.. lmao.
I remember that. That was in a thread that somehow got tracked over to the worst watercooling kits. Petra posted the link. We all gasped.. It was scarey! LOL
@oshox: Where in world did you find that? Thermaltake strkes again. They really have no bussinees in water. Still poeple will buy it. It big! It's gizmoey! It has heatpipes! It has water! OMG I've got a sales pitch for it... "Don't you feel sorry for this thing? It really needs a home.."
Norths Idea: It almost has to be direct IHS. But there are some problems with that. I really hope he gets it working. 10c I don't think so. 10f yeah just maybe.
What, you mean the Sunon Waturbo? :D :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay
nope, not it. Fan faces side-ways on the heatsink i'm talking about.
Interesting idea with the waturbo somewhat, though.
Galvanic corrotion A++ Copper base Alu body, they may well have just used convection. To think that it blows down where it is re-heating the socket and rebreathing lmao.
@Petra Thats the 1 I thought he meant.
@STEvil: You mean theres two of them?
Depends what your are doing, if there is a material with a low boiling point that wont reliably condensate in air cooled applications, you could see some benefit with water. It would change how change how we look at WCing currently to attempt to build it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
That Waturbo design looks interesting. I dont think its that bad than it looks like at the first look.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/coolers...418123542.htmlQuote:
The project is called Sunon Waturbo and, according to a report by HKEPC web-site, managed to cool-down Intel Pentium 4 660 (3.60GHz, 2MB cache) processor under full-load to 54°C, down 6°C from a typical cooler supplied by Intel for the chip, while producing 25dB of noise, 8dB lower compared to the original cooler.
You're thinking of the Silver Knight, arn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
http://www.evercool.com.tw/products/wc-601.htm
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ghlight=knight
LOL, transformers for the win.
There is another water/aircooler out there. I found it accidently on ebay a while ago, but cant remember what it was called. Maybe I can find it again.
I found it: Akuatek FS-92
http://xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers...ek-fs92_5.html
Evercool Silver Knight is the one
@HaxR3: Nice try... Shows yer' thinkin' .... The problem with heatpipes and water is heatpipes need heat to work. Water takes the heat away. So you are left with what amounts to as pretty bad water block. Keep thinkin' about stuff like though you might hit on something that we'll all be buyin'. LOL
It's pretty decent compared to other air coolers but sucks compared to water coolers.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
Moving air takes the heat away too, water is just more efficient. I think the point is you need heatpipes that work at a low enough temperature and you may want to cool the pipes closer to the top half so the liquid has a chance to evaporate in the lower half. I may do some experimenting at some point if I have the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay
Umm insted of making a block top to fit over the IHS on LGA775 why not make a new IHS base plate. Take an IHS of the LGA775, copy it and have one made yeah, then over the die you can have what ever to do the disapation job. No problems with leaking or anyhting.Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
Fact a IHS is coper just TIN plated. So you could make a coper top, and braze it shut! AS5 on the core, and place the block on and clamp it up.
I'd love that.
@AzraelDarkangel:I sorta' thought that too. But still it cant cool below the water temp. And most likely it would only add thermal resistance. Increasing the delta between the water temp and core temp. But still it might be worth a try.
Removing the IHS on Intel CPUs is pretty hard and risky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
If you remove the IHS you can aswell use a ordinary block and cool the die directly without using a IHS.
Would have the same effect than what you are suggesting.
In fact it is dead easy! The problem using any form of cooling IHS'less is cracking the die! So this way the IHS is made to fit touching the die right but also the wafer, so when you tigthen it down it wont kill anything!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr3ak
Safer, thinner etc etc! Also wether you'd need to have funky stuff over the dia aera or not as it being directly above the core i duno but i'm sure having just a cap over it and water passing through it would cool it loads.
If you are careful, you dont crack anything. I have never used a IHS on any AMD cpu and none of the CPUs died.