Cascade for John

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11-03-2006, 05:11 AM
LukeXE

thanks Kayl !

In II stage pure R14, nothing more. No oil problems, hope there won`t be any in future
11-03-2006, 05:23 AM
LukeXE

Thanks :)

I decided to charge I stage with R290/CO2 for testing, when I will have enough R23 I will recharge that stage with R290/R23.

In next few minutes I will take new, 6kg CO2 bottle and test my lovely unit :*

I know that CO2 is worse than R23, much worse, but it`s cheapest at all and I can experiment with it and blend it with other refrigerants.
11-03-2006, 07:23 AM
kayl

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

Thanks :)

I decided to charge I stage with R290/CO2 for testing, when I will have enough R23 I will recharge that stage with R290/R23.

In next few minutes I will take new, 6kg CO2 bottle and test my lovely unit :*

I know that CO2 is worse than R23, much worse, but it`s cheapest at all and I can experiment with it and blend it with other refrigerants.

whats temp 1st will you need to properly condenser r14 at safe pressures, doesnt r14 need -80c at least to condense?
11-03-2006, 09:27 AM
LukeXE

I noticed that I can easly condense R14 with reasonable pressure at -65*C
11-04-2006, 07:37 AM
LukeXE

So, I tested today our cascade, charged I stage with some co2 (now in I stage I have R290/R507/R23/CO2) and now I stage is holding load of II stage.

After 1h of testing on evap I`ve got -114*C (@155W dummy)

HX temp is to high for me, -47*C under full load with those mix of gasses isn`t good, with only R290/R23 it can be much lower, but even with that warm HX R14 condenses.

Pressures, aren`t too good too, II stage discharge about 22bar with full load (without load II stage pressure is about 15 bar).

I would go for ethylene/R507 mix in I stage, then I would have much colder HX temps, even -70 would be great, but still don`t have enough money for ethylene ;(

so next try, R507/Ethlene I stage and R14 for II stage like now, just need to make HX a little bit colder

For now pressures are to high to be fully safe
11-05-2006, 02:02 PM
LukeXE

so, I with John decided to play with good blend of gasses in I stage.

We will use R22/R134a/maybe R290/R23 and a little bit of R1150 in I stage, so stay tunned
11-05-2006, 06:49 PM
kayl

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

So, I tested today our cascade, charged I stage with some co2 (now in I stage I have R290/R507/R23/CO2) and now I stage is holding load of II stage.

After 1h of testing on evap I`ve got -114*C (@155W dummy)

HX temp is to high for me, -47*C under full load with those mix of gasses isn`t good, with only R290/R23 it can be much lower, but even with that warm HX R14 condenses.

Pressures, aren`t too good too, II stage discharge about 22bar with full load (without load II stage pressure is about 15 bar).

I would go for ethylene/R507 mix in I stage, then I would have much colder HX temps, even -70 would be great, but still don`t have enough money for ethylene ;(

so next try, R507/Ethlene I stage and R14 for II stage like now, just need to make HX a little bit colder

For now pressures are to high to be fully safe

luke can you get ethane, doesnt it only need -20c at 200psi (ruffly) to condense, it boils -92c or something. that would be much easier to use than 1150. also could try ethane/r14 blend second stage to reduce the high side pressure a little at load
11-05-2006, 10:30 PM
LukeXE

Yes, I can get ethane, Unknown_road promised to fill bottle with ethane and he will send it to me...maybe :D :)

ethane boils at -88*C If I remember correctly.
11-06-2006, 04:52 AM
kayl

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

Yes, I can get ethane, Unknown_road promised to fill bottle with ethane and he will send it to me...maybe :D :)

ethane boils at -88*C If I remember correctly.

Unknown_road :slapass: -88c would be nice, specially with lower condensing pressure needed. ;)
11-06-2006, 10:04 AM
quintus

i would go with r23, think about the mass...
good luck,
q
11-06-2006, 10:29 AM
LukeXE

Quote:

Originally Posted by quintus

i would go with r23, think about the mass...
good luck,
q

I will go with R23 quintus for sure, but will try what happens when I will add some R134a, R22 and a small shot of R1150.
11-06-2006, 10:40 AM
|RickY|

awsome project here luke :) i'm tunned
11-14-2006, 01:29 PM
john_toscan

updates

any update luke???
11-14-2006, 01:33 PM
LukeXE

Hey

sorry for that long brake, but I`ve got really mess in school and private life, so I haven`t got time to play with units. I need some more R14 from cold_ice, I will order it from him, tomorrow I will charge II stage with ethylene and see results. If they will be good, I think it will be reasonable point between safety (high pressures with R14) and performance (about 10*C difference).

Stay tunned, and sorry one more time, my gf is still doing some problems, I don`t have free time for she and units at this momment.
11-22-2006, 03:19 PM
LukeXE

Ok, so results with second stage charged with etylene, first only R22/R290/CO2, I`m out of R23, but I will have it in next week so results would be better for sure.

For now, -100*C@155W dummy load, now 8,5bar discharge pressure under load instead 23bar with R14 :D :D :D

Tomorrow some tests with 215W dummy.

Cheers
11-24-2006, 02:19 AM
Trouffman

Quote:

I`m thinking about adding one more SLHX before main HX, it will help with lowering load on I stage I think. I`ve got one SLHX on II stage, after main HX, it`s helping with condensing R14 a little bit

Yep ;) If you put a SLHX before the HX, this will Help to condense the gaz, it will help to "pre-condense" like a kind of super-desuperheater (this will decrease your HP...)

--> second stage, check your temp in the enter of your HX, if temp are too hot... you'll probably need a SLHX before your HX and this will decrease the temp @ begin of the HX...

Example : Only with HX and SLHX after : (just an example not real T° ;))

Beginning of the HX : 40°c
End of HX / begginning of SLHX : -40°c
End of SLHX : -45°c

Result : You have a 80°C Delta !.....

And no with : SLHX(1) --> HX --> SLHX(2) :

Beginning of SLHX(1) : 40°c
End of SLHX(1) / Beginning of HX : -20°c
End of HX / Beginning of SLHX(2) : -42°c (probably get 5°c better ;) but i keep in mind you dont change your first Stage and First stage temp is about -48°c to -45°c...)

End of SLHX(2) : -45°c /-48°c...

You've only 22°c of Delta and this result in : better temp in HX for I stage, better temp for 2nd Stage, and lower pressure in second stage, better temp with a charge....

If you don't agree with this let me know your opinion, here or in PM ;) !
11-24-2006, 07:24 AM
LukeXE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouffman

Yep ;) If you put a SLHX before the HX, this will Help to condense the gaz, it will help to "pre-condense" like a kind of super-desuperheater (this will decrease your HP...)

--> second stage, check your temp in the enter of your HX, if temp are too hot... you'll probably need a SLHX before your HX and this will decrease the temp @ begin of the HX...

Example : Only with HX and SLHX after : (just an example not real T° ;))

Beginning of the HX : 40°c
End of HX / begginning of SLHX : -40°c
End of SLHX : -45°c

Result : You have a 80°C Delta !.....

And no with : SLHX(1) --> HX --> SLHX(2) :

Beginning of SLHX(1) : 40°c
End of SLHX(1) / Beginning of HX : -20°c
End of HX / Beginning of SLHX(2) : -42°c (probably get 5°c better ;) but i keep in mind you dont change your first Stage and First stage temp is about -48°c to -45°c...)

End of SLHX(2) : -45°c /-48°c...

You've only 22°c of Delta and this result in : better temp in HX for I stage, better temp for 2nd Stage, and lower pressure in second stage, better temp with a charge....

If you don't agree with this let me know your opinion, here or in PM ;) !

Agree with you for sure, but I will just put strong fan on desuperheater in II stage(small condenser), then temp should be ~25-30*C. With ethylene I don`t have any problems with performance for sure :) Only with R14, but I will make new design for another xtreme cascade/auto-c.
11-24-2006, 07:24 AM
the_new_guy

some links

http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/e...tnMolecule.y=3

http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/e...D=29&UNNumber=

http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/e...D=66&UNNumber=
11-28-2006, 01:26 PM
LukeXE

Okey, then unit is after final tunning.

-99,5*C@215W load (dummy) :) Ethylene in II stage, 9bar highside pressure.

HX temp ~ -50*C under load, there is about 350-400W ! Really good performance for autocascade :)

I`m angry because I haven`t got any picks, I forgotten to borrow digicam from my gf, tomorrow I will take some shots of unit and temps.

I`m really happy with that temp ! :D
11-28-2006, 01:56 PM
n00b 0f l337

Whoooohooo! Congrats Luke, amazing temps.
11-28-2006, 03:07 PM
MaSell

Oh no, you must have -100.x 'C under load

99.5'C is so.... ugly :)
11-29-2006, 10:06 AM
LukeXE

Some photos and better results :)

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0418.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0422.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0424.jpg

Idle with dummy load on evap....

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0430.jpg

...stress with 215W heat load :toast:

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0434.jpg

First safety device...

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0436.jpg

Second one...:)

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0439.jpg

dummy few minutes after taking it off from evap

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0441.jpg

Idle temp without dummy on evap, unit charged to hold load, not just idle shot.

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0442.jpg

I stage temp when II stage is running without load, with load temp is ~ -50*C.

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0445.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...e/PICT0446.jpg

Small army ! :D :D

Cheers, unit will be shipped in this week.
11-29-2006, 10:13 AM
godmod

i hate you luke :p: (ironic)
dammit i wish i had these cute rotaries. i've only got one standing around in my workshop :)
congrats, i like your units!
i like your fluke :) and i like this cascade-insulation-monster :D
11-29-2006, 10:13 AM
barzi

I like it very much, good temps i think. But i'm not a pro with phase change (yet :P)
12-04-2006, 03:08 PM
LukeXE

Hey, last update by me in this thread.

On sunday I was packing unit, and got small leak on steel hose (it cranked a little bit)...I recovered gas but after repairing unit it wasn`t enough for one charge. 17PM and I`m in horrible situation (I don`t have ethylene), because on monday morning courier will arrive to take unit...f*ck...

Quick decision, I with my gf went to Piotres, who lives 200km from my living place to charge unit with ethylene. We arrived at 22PM, quick vacuum, charging and calibrating. We were back at 3AM...and Martha at 6AM has gone to school and I packed unit.

Big thanks to my Marta, because only she wanted take me to Piotres, we risked a lot, because she passed practical driving exam few days ago, but waiting for driving license...so we go to piotres without it, but everything was OK ! Second big thanks must go to Piotres, because he helped me a lot, he borrow me ethylene whenever I want, for free. BIG THANKS :***

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...g/IMG_7431.jpg

quick vacuum

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...g/IMG_7432.jpg

two masters :D :D Piotres and my fiance.

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...g/IMG_7433.jpg

Wild lady

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...g/IMG_7434.jpg

Third Master, me :p

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...g/IMG_7435.jpg

Loaded temps :woot: 215W !

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/turke...g/IMG_7436.jpg

Last photo, Piotres with thermometer ! :D

That`s all, Wild Lady is shipped, it should be on friday in John`s house.

Cheers
12-04-2006, 03:37 PM
JuppeN1

nice work dude!!
12-05-2006, 08:44 AM
4Qman

Sounds like a little adventure., Great news you managed to get it charged and shipped. I can imagine how Pi**ed u was when u discovered it had a leak, :rolleyes:

Surely is a monster, Great work and good pics :banana: Oh and awsome temps "nearly forgot :slap: "
12-05-2006, 11:58 AM
john_toscan

I want to thank you my friend luke ,piotres and fiance of luke:(
You have worked very hard to make this wild lady , I will start overclock as soon as I receive my monster

The temperature under load is great , this is want I want to have :clap: luke
12-05-2006, 12:35 PM
Brettbeck

Well done Luke, glad to see you've got it finished :).

I agree with 4Qman too, you must have been so annoyed with that leak!

And also, what was the final gas mix?
12-05-2006, 12:40 PM
LukeXE

thanks guys :)

Final gases blend :

I stage -- R290/R22/R23 + small bit of CO2
II stage -- pure Ethylene
12-05-2006, 10:18 PM
kayl

well done luke, good to hear members helping each other out ;)
sounded like a good road trip :toast:
12-06-2006, 03:48 AM
jinu117

Great to hear this little adventure. Now that's dedication as well as helpfullness :) You guys are just great :)
12-06-2006, 04:24 AM
LukeXE

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoddemFX

Luke,

Amazing cascade! :toast:

What were your first stage discharge pressures in the end?

By the way - i think this picture is awesome, man and machine! :D

Thanks :D

discharge pressure I stage about 17bar under load, II stage discharge 9bar under load :)

Jin, I`ve got digi vac meter from you, it`s great ! :cool:
12-06-2006, 04:35 AM
jinu117

Well, enjoy it :) Now you know true meaning of good evac :)
12-06-2006, 04:44 AM
LukeXE

Hehe still buying new parts, vacuum pump, this vac meter, new manifold stations, maybe in future I won`t build ghetto units anymore :p
12-06-2006, 07:25 AM
johann

Nice Luke, nice performance from this cascade.
12-06-2006, 01:06 PM
Pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

Hehe maybe in future I won`t build ghetto units anymore :p

Will hold you too this dude!!!

Still amazing load temp and intresting unit
12-06-2006, 03:15 PM
N3RO

Great job as usual ;)

Congratz m8
12-06-2006, 04:12 PM
wdrzal

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

Hehe still buying new parts, vacuum pump, this vac meter, new manifold stations, maybe in future I won`t build ghetto units anymore :p

Don't forget that good book, so you understand thermodynamics & refrigeration basic principles. I already gave away all the editions I didn't need. "modern refrigeration and air conditioning" can be found worldwide as just about every college uses it and the military uses it no matter if you a maintenance man or work as a tech-e on F-16's or any other jet.As you need to start with basic thermodynamics to work on just about any piece of modern equipment.

Ebay, used book stores ,college book store exchanges are good places to find used ones ,A new edition I,m guessing is about $80.00 . I would say get at least a 1980 or newer edition. the older editions cover all the basics but will not mention the newer gases & such.The basics of thermodynamics ,compressors ,gases, electrical & mechanics of refrigeration don't change.This is a good first book to cover what is done in this forum.

You can have all the newest ,best gauges ,meters & test equipment,BUT the information they give don't mean jack sh*t if you don't understand how to interrupt all the information correctly

just a few currently on ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...r+conditioning
12-06-2006, 06:21 PM
Duh

Book

New
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Refrige.../dp/1590702808

As it is awfully expensive you might consider ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/Modern-Refrigera...ayphotohosting

$5 is much better than $72 :p
12-06-2006, 10:37 PM
LukeXE

but I must find that book in polish language, because there is too many words that I won`t understand. I will search it.

From Danfoss A/S shop where I`m buying parts, they want to send me on educational program for employee, maybe this will be true :)
12-07-2006, 02:39 AM
Hugo van Dijk

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

but I must find that book in polish language, because there is too many words that I won`t understand. I will search it.

From Danfoss A/S shop where I`m buying parts, they want to send me on educational program for employee, maybe this will be true :)

I,ve got the book to (on recommendation of walt), but although I,m dutch i really don,t have any problems reading it. Its so easy to understand and I already learned alot of new things. Also alot of information on this forum isn,t correct (compared to the book, but I guess the book is right). Also it might be even easy,er to understand the book in english then in your own language caus most technical hvac words I only know in english and not in dutch if there is a word for it at all.

It has become my new bible :D
12-07-2006, 03:19 AM
jinu117

Go for it on danfoss one. They are quite good over all. Some nomenclature expects you to know the stuff already but I am sure you probably know most already :0
12-07-2006, 04:19 AM
Athens[2004]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

Hey, last update by me in this thread.

Quick decision, I with my gf went to Piotres, who lives 200km from my living place to charge unit with ethylene. We arrived at 22PM, quick vacuum, charging and calibrating. We were back at 3AM...and Martha at 6AM has gone to school and I packed unit.

Big thanks to my Marta, because only she wanted take me to Piotres, we risked a lot, because she passed practical driving exam few days ago, but waiting for driving license...so we go to piotres without it, but everything was OK ! Second big thanks must go to Piotres, because he helped me a lot, he borrow me ethylene whenever I want, for free. BIG THANKS :***

Heroes detected :woot: :clap: :D

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