Hi all!
my reseler grosbill.com finally didn't get back my 6800LE that they sent somewhere only nobody knows from RMA, I went to see them and they gave me a LEADTEK 6600GT TDH. And after all, after 1 year waiting this, I'm more than happy! I can play BATTLEFIELD 2 all maximums set. C ya 6800 LE.... I won't think about you anymore....
you just won't have the opportunity of 16 pipelinesQuote:
Originally Posted by Godefroy
Happy end for you finally :) At least no way to get BS never again :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by Godefroy
Was it easy to RMA, did they know about BS ? They do not have 6800le-cards anymore or you wanted 6600GT ?
--
The performance difference between STOCK 6600GT and 6800LE is soooo MINOR. How many threads you have seen in forums '6600GT vs. 6800LE; which one is better ? or mine is better !!! '. Since, the price of 6800LE has been a little bit higher, I think 6800LE is choice of a 'gamer' (=gambler !!). I mean users buying 6800LE will MORE likely make mods/OC's/unclock units...
I have just recieved my MSI 6800LE which has BS in all 3D apps, when running factory clock of 700Mhz. If i underclock the card to 558Mhz the card runs perfectly. I then have unlocked all pixel pipes and shaders and the card runs great still only with 558Mhz. (My card is with 2 green capasitors of 470uF)
Has anyone considered that the problem with the capasitor can be caused du to conversion to non led (RoHs) production techniques with higher prosess temperatures and therefor the electrlytical capasitors are all damaged more or less.
I know that there has been major problems with exactly SMT electrolytical capasitors when converting to (RoHS) productions.
The SVP series of capasitors which is used on a MSI 6800LE gfx PCB can all pe purchased @ www.farnell.com which is a worldwide electronics dealer
As i saw on the pictures fom the car of findland story these capasitors has been changes by MSI to 1200uF 4V Sanyo SVP series.
My intension is then to exchange my 2 pcs of green 470uF to 1200uF 4V SVP series from Sanyo.
The specs for these capasitors is totally crazy. I have never seen as good spec for a capasitor that small. the ratings for these is aproxx 10 times smaller ESR and 10 times bigger peak current. Crazy component i would say.
Does anyone know if any other components has been changed on the card with theese 2 new 1200uF capasitors.
I will retur with my knowhow regarding the change of theese 2 capasitors.
Pleace coment my suggestion.
if anyone wants the datasheet for the SVP series of capasitor just contact me.
Doctor6000
Pardon my english
:dammit: OH NO!!!!!!
The bs were back...
when i played fear,suddenly iv got black screen...it has been a 1.5 months
without any bs(and i played and finish farcry,hl2...at this time)
my questions are:
what should i do(all my cap r purple,no green ones)?
if i replace the cap again can it help 2 solve the problem(3300uf 10v)?
if it will help me what is the best cap that i need to put?
is there anyother solutions?
:brick:
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/8...e0063oy.th.jpg http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/8...e0100su.th.jpg
p.s
after i take off the pipes 2 the normal condition and reduce the oc back 2 his normal condition i was able 2 play without geting any black screen...
If i vas you i would change the 2 pcs of 560uF 10V to 1200uF 4V SVP series that i what i intend to doQuote:
Originally Posted by inspire
Doctor6000
I’m experiencing a very strange problem with my new XFX GeForce 6800LE.
When I received the card I also put on an Arctic Cooler, because I heard about opening the pipelines and some overclocking could get you the same sort of performance as a stock 6800GT.
Installation went fine on a fresh Win XP, and I updated the drivers to the latest Nvidia drivers on their website. I then installed Riva Tuner to open the pipelines. Having done that I played around with the clock settings a little bit. I started testing the card’s performance with the bundled game Far Cry. Weird thing was that in autodetect graphics settings everything is set to low. So I put the settings up to full and tried it out anyway. Loads of artefacts appeared on the water, and the walls all appeared really bright, but the FPS was fine. I was also got a few black screen crashes and presumed this was down to the overclocking.
I played around with the settings and found that it would work and look reasonable on full settings on everything except for lighting and water quality. But I was still baffled as to why I had to set these to low. I changed the pipeline settings from 16 to 12 and back to 8 but to no avail. So I tested it out with SWAT 4 to see if the card could handle it at all.
When I ran SWAT 4 it started playing fine, but after 10 seconds it crashed, and the screen flicked to the stand by mode, and the power at the plug had to be turn off and then on again before I could restart the PC. Very strange I thought, so I played around with the in game graphic settings and this didn’t help – the same problem occurred.
Okay, back to the beginning I thought. I reset everything back to defaults (pipelines, memory/clock speed), uninstalled Riva Tuner and set everything in Nvidia Display Manager to default. Still had the same problem, when running SWAT 4. I also installed 3D Mark 05 and tested it with the default settings. The exact same sort of crash happens midway through the third section of the test. I’m almost certain that these crashes aren’t due to overheating. The arctic cooler has that covered. Maybe it’s due to my 400W PSU supply not being powerful enough for the card as the 6800LE requires its own power dangle. Other older games on my PC run fine – Rome Total War, FM2005, PES3, but these are all less graphically demanding, so maybe won’t need as much power from the PSU?
I’ve also read the article on these forums regarding the black screen problems with 6800LEs. I downloaded Ski Alpen 2005 Demo to test for BS, but at first it crashed to the desktop almost as you’ve got to the main menu screen. Further reading of the article suggested turning V-sync on and this helped somewhat. I actually started a race but it crashed about a minute into it. This suggests it is a BS issue.
Please help! Any suggestions as to whats wrong here or what I should do would help. I don’t want to have to buy another card.
Btw, I spoke to XFX about the probs and was told to ensure the power cable was in right. Duh! Unless I'm getting a very large power surge from my power dangle I don't think this is the problem. The power lead is shared with an external fan, but this has never had any probs before so I don't see why it would now.
My System Specs:
Processor
Model : AMD Athlon(tm) XP 3200+
Speed : 2.20GHz
Model Number : 3200 (estimated)
Mainboard
Bus(es) : ISA AGP PCI IMB USB i2c/SMBus
MP Support : No
MP APIC : Yes
System BIOS : American Megatrends Inc. P1.20
System : K7V88
Mainboard : K7V88
Total Memory : 512MB DDR-SDRAM
Chipset 1
Model : ASRock Inc KT880 CPU to PCI Bridge
Front Side Bus Speed : 2x 200MHz (400MHz data rate)
Total Memory : 512MB DDR-SDRAM
Memory Bus Speed : 2x 166MHz (332MHz data rate)
Video System
Monitor/Panel : Targa CM1997FS (19 inch)
Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce 6800 LE (Driver: 78.01)
Physical Storage Devices
Removable Drive : Floppy disk drive
Hard Disk : Maxtor 6Y120L0 (114GB)
Hard Disk : WDC WD800BB-00JHA0 USB Device
CD-ROM/DVD : _NEC DVD_RW ND-2510A (CD 40X Rd, 32X Wr) (DVD 5X Rd, 4X Wr)
CD-ROM/DVD : Generic DVD-ROM SCSI CdRom Device (CD 32X Rd) (DVD 4X Rd)
Logical Storage Devices
1.44MB 3.5" (A:) : N/A
Hard Disk (C:) : 114GB (12GB, 10% Free Space) (NTFS)
CD-ROM/DVD (D:) : N/A
CD-ROM/DVD (E:) : N/A
Lacie (H:) : 75GB (5.7GB, 8% Free Space) (NTFS)
Operating System(s)
Windows System : Microsoft Windows XP/2002 Professional (Win32 x86) 5.01.2600 (Service Pack 2)
have just installed the 2 new capasitors 1200uF 4V on my MSI 6800LE.
It is now possible to run the card with more than 550Mhz without BS. YES it runs 700Mhz which i factory speed, It runs 850Mhz no problems also. have not had a single BS since i changed the 2 capasitors.
All pipes an shaders is unlocked and the card just runs great now.
I had BS in all 3D apps before i changed the capasitors. only when i under clocked the card to 550Mhz i would run steady.
If you intend to change the 2 capasitor a 50W soldering iron will not do, you need a 80+ watt soldering iron to be able to solder the capasitors proberbly.
If yo intend to change the capasitors. do use SVP series from Sanyo. Great specs. and also the types used on the cards from findland as you can see on that picture.
Hi Doctor6000,Quote:
Originally Posted by doctor6000
You provided good comments & nice info, thank you :up:
The RoHS -issue is very interesting, indeed (I'll check it out later more carefully) That could be (partly?) reason why the very first cards using "4 3 470 6E" capacitors were SO poor. However, the ripple current specification of 'CV-EX'-capacitors IS definately too low in this purpose and I propose that the most (?) these cards will suffer BS before end of life. Do you have a good link were RoHS-problems are explained in detail ?
Farnell is a good hint for those having problems to obtain capacitors. I have personally ordered many components there. In nordic countries (=Finland, Sweden, Norway..) a good choice is 'ELFA' also providing SVP:s with lower total cost (post&packaging).
SVP-capacitors are really excellent. I have used (and sent for somebody) Chemi-con's PXA's which almost similar. Chemi-con has today also newer models PXE and PXC, which are EVEN better that PXA... only problem is Chemi-con components are not easily obtained at low volumes :(
Desoldering of old capacitors can be difficult, I agree. High power iron or two irons in the same time can be good solution. I used little screwdriver to 'lift' up capaciotors and in the same time heating one lead - not so nice method but effective ! (see foto below, iron is missing since I have only two hands.)
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1...od000kh.th.jpg
--
Nice you got your card modded & working again !!
You card is a BIG mystery, indeed ! It has been proven (with measurements) that 'green capacitors' ripped from BS-cards ARE in very bad condition and changing those to proper capacitors (SVP, PXA..) will remove BS. Your card has SVP-capacitors as a new and it should be 'BS-free' for a long time, since SVP's (purple) are much more better than CV-EX's (green). Therefore, something wierd has been happened to you card e.g. during manufacturing process. One alternative COULD be the RoHs-issue 'Doctor6000' mentioned above. In addition to extra heat also different/wrong chemicals used in sordering process can be very harmfull e.g. solvels can be diffused inside capacitor etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by inspire
I suggest (like 'Doctor6000') to change those MEMORY capacitors to NEW SVP-capacitors or similar. I wonder the actual capacitance value is not so critical (470 - 1200 uF), but the ripple current & ESR specifications. Also, I think it is not required to chance other 'purple' capacitors.
Before you change capacitors, could you make a little temperature test. Please, carefully 'measure' temperature of the memory capacitors with a finger tip: are those warm/hot (50/60 C?) ? How about core capacitors (1500/2.5 V) ?
Sikaripper ...
Thanks for the kind words.
I do not have any exact descriptions regarding problems with components and ROHS production lines. All though i know that theese problem exist, because i work in the electronics industri, with electronics production. And i have been involved in discussiongroups exactly regarding theese issues ROHS compliant problems.
Im lookng forward to hear from other people who willl try to exchange theese capasitors.
Any coments on Bios Settings ????
I think it will help you to change from the 2*560uF 10V to 2*1200uF 4V, this will give you twice as much capasity on you memory supply. The ESR and ripple current is almost the same for those 2 types buttt still more capasity = more power when needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
If i were you i would try it out.
I do understand why regular capasitors go broke after 1-2 month because if the electrical stress of the components is so high as the data shee rating for the SVP capasitors is. no ordinay capasitor will stand this. The data for a SVP capasitor i similar to a 10000-20000uF philips electrolytical capasitor. WARNING do not mount such a big capasitor :-)
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by uncy_chris
A long and detailed 'bug report', let's see..
--
At first when you got artefacts in FarCry I wonder that was due to 'not-fully-working-unlocked-units'. Do you get any artefacts at stock settings ? BTW autodetects are working or not.. I have seen anything.
--
Crashes you explained can be all explained as 'Black screen', if I understood correctly. The case with SkiAlpin and 'vsync'-settings is the most clear one.
--
'Check your power cable' is completely :slapass:, and only said by reseller/service man that do not know anything about the problem.
--
What you can do: RMA if possible, that is the best solution. If not.. test to make 'Enhanced capacitor modification', which usually helps at least for a certain time. (Changing the capacitors is more difficult to do, but usually helps also cards that can not be modded in other way).
--
What is the version of your card (see fotos in document) ? Do you have 'green' or 'purple' capacitors C136 &143, and what are the codes top of them (e.g. "4 3 470 6E" ?
I agree: if you can CHOICE capacitor 1200 uF is better here, BUT the card should be working with 470 uF SVP (or 560 uF) for a long time (many time longer than with CV-EX). Therefore, I cannot fully unsderstand why the card of 'inspire' failed so fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by doctor6000
Some shops sell only certain SVP-capacitors (like 470 uF), and therefore it would be more easy to obtain capacitors if your have more freedom to select components.
The electrical specs of those caps are really fine, indeed. It is due to specific conductive polymer in electrode(s), which give so low ESR. And max ripple current value corresponds directly to ESR and physical size of capacitor.
--
BTW, what you mean with bios setting ?
hi everyone!
I have an MSI BS affected card and I recently changed the old capacitors with new chemicons pxa capacitors (470uF,4V). Before that I had tryed with the enhanced capacitor mod. The enhanced capacitor mode(adding a cap in TP10 and TP9) did help in EVERY game but NOT with F.E.A.R so I decided to definitely change the capacitors.
Now the card work also when playing F.E.A.R at leat at 370mhz core and 730mhz memory. Other games and 3d Marks work with a frequency of 770mhz memory.
to summarize:
without mods: BS in HL2,3dMarks,FarCry etc.
maximum non-BS-freq:500mhz
with enhanced cap Mod: BS ONLY in F.E.A.R(even in the menu)
maximum non-BS-freq in other apps:~730
whith PXA caps:NO more BS(at the moment)
max non-BS-freq:~770
note:in all these tests core freq=370, v-synch off,forceware 71.xx,everything unlocked(16/6), core voltage raised of 0.1 v, nv silencer 5.
From this data I can suppose that FEAR does stress the card very very much :slapass:
:mad:
question: even if I changed old caps with better ones, will adding also a cap in TP9 & TP10 prevent the new ones to deteriorate??will a new game in feature stress the card even more and cause BS again?
I have to thank SikaRippa for all the work he is doing to try to solve the problem :clap:
Thank you for a good report and nice words ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by robb-x
--
The F.E.A.R (demo) might be even better 'BS-indicator' than 'SkiAlpin'. Yes, it is evident that all new and future games will stress BS/not-yet-BS cards in a very hard manner.
Adding a GOOD quality capacitor between TP's (=low-ESR) will increase the life of the card even not BS-affected (in that moment), since the stress (current) is 'splitted' between all capacitors.
The important point is the TOTAL ESR of ALL capacitors for memories. Those are parallel , so having two equal the total ESR is half (ESR of 2x PXA's ~ 30 mohm/2 = 15 mohm). An extra (added) capacitor should have ESR AT THE SAME RANGE OR LOWER in order to decrease ESR considerably. E.g capacitor having ESR of 1 ohm does not help too much.. I think this is a reason why the mod is not working for some users (too high ESR), but many cases the originals are so bad condition that any extra capacitor will not help => replacement is only solution.
Nice work!! I have A non-vendor plain nvidia 6800le with really bad black screen while I could overclock up to 330 gpu and 825 mem at a maximum I would get black screen at the sight of load on the card or if I say wanted a little af and aa enabled,so I tryed the bandaid mod and it worked I can now overclock to 360 gpu ans 901 mem with 12 and 6pp enabled. Thank you!!.
I have however still noticed that the bandaid is not enough to cover the other two caps as I still get kicked out in things like 3d mark 05 with a black screen, however I think this could still be due to the other two caps not working up to full spec anymore?? again thanks for the research and hard work for us all to benefit from. MD.
If it can help someone, here is the link to know something about RoHS compliance (italian language )
brief description
RoHS is only compliace for recicle material , and specify the tipe (crome, mercury ...ecc ) that could be not used on electronic systems or componets.
http://www.anie.it/browse.asp?goto=721
hope it is useful
best regards
roby
Hi Firechicken,Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechicken
Nice increase on OC-frequency :)
--
Is your card similar to some of those shown in documents (with nvidia cooler like 'point-of-view') ?
'Black screen' is almost is every case appeared having high OC'ing with this card. So, only some cases have been reported that artefacts etc. limits performance.
It can be possible your capcitors are little bit deteriorated, BUT while having 901 MHz :) those are still quite good condition.
Hi,
i got a bs msi 6800le (i posted some time ago here in the thread), i tried the capacitor mods, they worked very well till the first reboot. After the reboot, the condition of the card seems to be worse than before. I tried this several times, but it was always the same.
Some time i was able to aviod bs by playing the games windowed, but now in many games (q4 for example) i get bs even with 1024x768 on a 2560x1024 desktop. When i lower the clock frequencies to 500mhz everything works as it should.
But i dont think my soldering skills are good enough to desolder these small capacitors and solder some new, so is there any other way? Without soldering, or at least without desoldering?
Thanks,
Sid
RoHS compliance with 6800le is really interesting issue !
Thank you 'doctor6000' and 'roby58' for links
http://uk.farnell.com/static/en/rohs...s-faq-page.htm
http://www.anie.it/browse.asp?goto=721
I did not understood 'everything' in that Italian page :), sorry..
--
I found following manual having lots of usefull data:
http://www.newark.com/services/rohs/...hManual_v2.pdf
There was following comment about realibility issues when converting designs to meet RoHs requirements:
"Higher melting temperature
Lead-free alloy soldering temperature is higher (30°C -
40°C), which can lead to a variety of defects such as:
?? Damage to heat sensitive components
Check upper temperature limit in
manufacturers datasheet"
Sanyo CV-EX capacitors (those 'green') do not fullfill RoHs requirements !!
=> Interesting question: Are 6800le-cards manufactured using RoHs standards ? My answer is, propably YES because of following reasons:
- RoHs standard will be used (mandatory) in EU in next year, and most likely electronic companies are setting up capabilities right now (and during last year)
- Many users (like me !) have SERIUOS problems, when removing old capacitors. The main idea of RoHs is to NOT use poisonous material like lead and therefore new RoHs solders have considerably higher melting temperature !
So, RoHs issue might be a very good explanation why some cards (by some manufacturers) get ruined SO quickly: capacitors deteriorate during (reflow) soldering performed using a too high temperature.
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidolin
I wonder it was some months ago you reported BS-problems (also with Linux?). You mean your card worked ~some months with mod or only for some hours/days ??? (Yes, I know UNIX/linux 'uptime' is usually >> 1 month, best 'score' I have seen was 748 days - hard daily use and still no big problems !!)
It have been seen many users that adding capacitors between TP10-TP9 is only 'first aid'. At least cards with "4 3 470 6E" capacitors usually work only for a short period after adding a capacitor.
--
I am quite sure, that when those capacitors are 'ruined enough' the only (?) thing one can do is replace bad ones.
Capacitor replacement is little bit difficult to perform, but can be done. If you are not very qualified with soldering try to get help from somebody "electronics orientated" or try it yourself: Begin soldering/ desoldering with old motherboards etc. and you'll find it not too difficult ;) Did you notice that foto I posted above, where I used screwdriver to lift up old capacitor ? An ultimate way to remove those would be destroying them e.g. with some pliers :) (no way back..)
Yes, i had these problems some months ago. But the mods only worked for a few hours, i made the mod, played one day and the next day i got bs again. Then, some weeks after this i did the same with a different capacitor and it was the same, it worked for a few hours, but then bs again. And my uptime is normally ~10h, when im at home, i turn off the computer at night, becase such a graphics card and processor need much power and i dont need them in the night ;)
I think the code on the capacitors was " 4 6 470 6E", but i'll look at them when i replace them.
I'll train soldering/desoldering because i dont know anyone here who's qualified enought, only my uncle, but he lives about 1000km away from me in the other end of germany ;)
Thanks,
Sid
Ps: I got an old (i don't think it works anymore) Gf 4400ti lying around here, with five capacitors on it, "gsc t21a, 105°, 470µF, 16V" do you think i can use them to replace the bad capacitors?
I got this card for about 20€ two years ago and havent used it since i had some problems with it, the mainboard didn't recognize it.
Edit:
Just for information: My card looks exactly like this: http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?i...800lev16ip.jpg but only with the 4 6 capacitors.
Hi All!
I’ve wrote few words about my card some time ago. I have GW 2100LE (6800LE GPU) with green caps.: 43 470 6E. My problem was that sometimes I had these “freezes” of image and sound, which blocked my PC for few seconds, and after that could play on. Now I’m here again because it seems that finally my card goes down too. As you already noticed FEAR demo probably causes much more effective the BS and that is true with my card as well. So, this was the moment to do the Enhanced Cap Mod and I did it ;) I removed capacitor (1500 F with 6,3V) from my damaged ASUS MB and putted it into the TP9 and TP10 holes. I didn’t have to much time to test the card, but you know what – as I wasn’t able to play with memory clock higher than 745 MHz (my card seemed to be in a little bit better condition then all the rest, because I hadn’t to lower clock below default freq.) without having BS after few secs, now It goes beautiful even with MemClock =800 !! So it seems to work fine for me.
Many thanks to SikkaRipa for great work!
For the future, I have a question – how can I recognize the ESR value on the capacitors? Is it marked some way?
And the second thing that bothers me is the annoying, high squeaking sound which flows from my card when it goes to display some 3D images (especially in FEAR’s or Silent Hunter III menu screens). What can I do about it? Will the ferrite ring work for me? I don’t hear anything in headphones – simply the card itself gives the sound… :(
Please advise! Many thanks in advance
What kind of capacitor you utilized ? I wonder it was not good enough (=too high ESR), since it helped so short period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidolin
Yep, 'uptime records' are NEVER tested at home ;)
--
Capacitors of TI4200 "gsc t21a, 105°, 470µF, 16V" are mystery for me, in 'paper' the capacitance/voltage specifications are correct BUT I am 99 % sure that ESR & ripple current values ARE NOT. Why ? Only a few companies can provide decent capacitor for this purpose. Also if you replace capacitors with even worse model you get more problems..
Only models I can suggest are (at least ~4 A ripple current !! )
- Chemi-con "PXA", PXH", "PXE" (<-best!)
- Sanyo "SVP"
- Panasonic "WA" (not manufactured any more)
- NIC COMPONENTS CORP "NSP"
- Vishay "94SVP"
- Hitano "EVS"
Please, post if somebody knows others :)