Apogee GTX

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Originally Posted by Petra

Just don't look at me for that one... :rolleyes:

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oh come on Alex, I dont think you have enough to do.

You guys seemed to have formed your individual opinions. Then, go your merry way and be happy with whatever your choices are. Don't condemn a company for what you deem unacceptable because of flawed appearances. No one has yet proven that the product does not work.

I haven't opened up my block yet, but intend to do so. Anyway, I haven't seen any drop in performance, and the block does perform as well as, may I say, better than, every block I have ever used.

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Originally Posted by IanY

You guys seemed to have formed your individual opinions. Then, go your merry way and be happy with whatever your choices are. Don't condemn a company for what you deem unacceptable because of flawed appearances. No one has yet proven that the product does not work.

I haven't opened up my block yet, but intend to do so. Anyway, I haven't seen any drop in performance, and the block does perform as well as, may I say, better than, every block I have ever used.

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That's great.

but without critisism and jabs at the product from users, then the advancements made in the technology would never grow.

gabe (and any company selling a product on a market) is looking to make money by offering a product ppl are looking to buy. If they we're to put out a product no one would want to buy, than they would be out of money.

The heart of these threads concerning a new product is essentialy that, the critism and tearing appart of new products. To be honest, there's no better way to get opinions about product than to release it to those who are the most critically inclined.

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Originally Posted by exhausted mule

That's great.

but without critisism and jabs at the product from users, then the advancements made in the technology would never grow.

gabe (and any company selling a product on a market) is looking to make money by offering a product ppl are looking to buy. If they we're to put out a product no one would want to buy, than they would be out of money.

The heart of these threads concerning a new product is essentialy that, the critism and tearing appart of new products. To be honest, there's no better way to get opinions about product than to release it to those who are the most critically inclined.

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The point is that those "most critically inclined" have already made up their minds. Prejudices and biases have been set. Preconceived notions have already been carved in stone.

Out of the number of people taking a dump on this block, what is the percentage of D-Tek FuZion owners? Maybe more than 75%. Of that number, how many own both a FuZion and an Apogee GT? Maybe at most five.

What would happen if I started a thread with the specific intent of being "most critically inclined" on the fuZion? Incidently, I happen to own two of them? What if I were to open up my block and complain incessantly about every last nitpicking flipping feature that irritates/annoys me?

Do you really think that the forum in general (never mind the moderators) will stand for that? In that case, why is there this immense double standard?

Why don't we drag Jerry the D-Tek owner in here and I torture him with a million and one questions? And if he doesn't answer even one of them, then I'll spam the internet with pictures of everything that is purportedly wrong with the D-Tek, whether valid or not? After all, he would not have "defended" himself? The presumption here is guilt!! OOOooo... I'm so ready with another manufacturer...

I figured out that if I am going to be accused of being a fanboy for no reason, then I might as well start behaving like one... Maybe I'll get lucky and manage to get a watercooling job with Swiftech and ditch my boring office work lol :D

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Originally Posted by gabe

We already have a Delrin top: it's the Apogee GT. As to its performance, well do the Math: Naekuh himself has verified his numbers up and now down versus the competition, and we have verified that the GT is only ~1C off the GTX at 100Watts and 1.5GPM. So it clearly tells you were the GT is located performance wise compared to the competition; it's made of Delrin, and it's average street price is $10 to $15 less than competition.

What is most distressing to me is the fact that people in this forum do not trust our data. Yet, this data always end up being verified over time, despite the relentless efforts of the anti-swiftech crowd. I could see not trusting the new kid on the block, but we have been in business for 7 years, and published professional data for what? close to 5 years now? If our numbers were skewed, people would know it after so much time. The only thing we don't publish is competitive data, which doesn't mean that we don't conduct competitive testing in-house. We simply chose not to create controversy by publishing it. So we know were our blocks are on the performance curve, at the tenth of the degree Celsius, and let's just say that we feel very comfortable about it. I also think that the backplate we are about to release will indeed bring both the GT and the GTX a mounting repeatability that will definitely allow all users to exploit the true potential of these blocks.

Back to the GTX and the plating issue, we made a mistake several years ago with anodized blocks. But everybody learns from their mistakes. I know we have, and as a result I am completely confident with the process that we are using now. The fact that you and a few others don't feel comfortable with it is a result of bad past experiences, and I understand it. But progress is made precisely by making mistakes, learning from them, and growing from there. Those who remain stuck in the old ways do not grow: they stagnate and end up falling behind the pace of technology.

Frankly the chances of corrosion in these blocks versus say the chances of machined acrylic tops cracking are thousands to 1. Yet, you guys buy acrylic top blocks (one piece VGA blocks come to mind) like mad. Doesn't matter that theyr'e being recalled. Doesn't matter that some blocks don't come with oring grooves and users have to JB Weld the fittings.. But when Swiftech tells you that the Storm is outdated, or that we use state-of-the-art plating, you chose not to believe it. Fine, what can I say. Just remember one thing if any: WE gave water-block base bowing to the world, not a mere artifact resulting from a manufacturing process, but a conscious decision that we made to incorporate this technology in our offerings based on the knowledge developped from testing. Is bowing the way we do it now the end of the line? Not by a long shot. Right now, it indicates a certain road to follow: hydraulic performance is reaching a plateau, and work needs to be done on other aspects.

The fact that a few of you are putting pressure on us to make a Delrin top (forget brass) for this block is one thing. And maybe we will in the future.. after all if it can sell a few hundred more water-blocks, why would I be against it? But the objective reality is simple: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current process that we use to plate the GTX, period.

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Progress in technology arises from the need to innovate and to stay ahead and be cost competitive. Don't get me wrong, I love swifty products but...

1) Baseplate - denser version of the Apogee
2) Cover - Aluminum
3) Unnecessarily complicated expensive plating.
4) Cost competitiveness - 75 bucks
5) How does it perform? Can't say cause there hasn't been any comparisons to draw a conclusion upon.

Is it safe to conclude that its more of an evolution than an innovation? If I remembered correctly the diamond matrix design was a tweaked version of an old design from your waterblocks waaaaay back (don't remember its name).

The Storm:

1) New innovative top material
2) Jet impingement (was tops back then)
3) Performance king back then, still is for some applications.

Is it safe to say that the Storm was a true breakthru in terms of design and technology? Sure it may not be the best out there anymore, but it has greatly influenced waterblock designs.

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Originally Posted by Petra

Just don't look at me for that one... :rolleyes:

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I really don't know why everyone just turned and look at u. :p:

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Originally Posted by IanY

The point is that those "most critically inclined" have already made up their minds. Prejudices and biases have been set. Preconceived notions have already been carved in stone.

Out of the number of people taking a dump on this block, what is the percentage of D-Tek FuZion owners? Maybe more than 75%. Of that number, how many own both a FuZion and an Apogee GT? Maybe at most five.

What would happen if I started a thread with the specific intent of being "most critically inclined" on the fuZion? Incidently, I happen to own two of them? What if I were to open up my block and complain incessantly about every last nitpicking flipping feature that irritates/annoys me?

Do you really think that the forum in general (never mind the moderators) will stand for that? In that case, why is there this immense double standard?

Why don't we drag Jerry the D-Tek owner in here and I torture him with a million and one questions? And if he doesn't answer even one of them, then I'll spam the internet with pictures of everything that is purportedly wrong with the D-Tek, whether valid or not? After all, he would not have "defended" himself? The presumption here is guilt!! OOOooo... I'm so ready with another manufacturer...

I figured out that if I am going to be accused of being a fanboy for no reason, then I might as well start behaving like one... Maybe I'll get lucky and manage to get a watercooling job with Swiftech and ditch my boring office work lol :D

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Yeah, I own a FuZion and I also own an ApogeeGTX as of an hour ago. Got it sat here now. I figured that if the dye wears off, then I'll replace coolant after it's all worn away. I don't say what I say about the GTX because of the fact I own a FuZion. If the GTX is better then I'll put the GTX in - a lot easier than trying to defend something that isn't the best. Heh, I guess I'm paid too much.

We're hardly torturing gabe for asking questions, after all he and the other designers at Swiftech are the ones with the answers and I have not seen on person say anything about concluding any guilt towards Swiftech for not replying straight away.

The fact still remains though that part of the block albeit a small part comes off when you run water through it and I honestly believe that shouldn't happen. I've never owned a plated product so can't say that this has happened to me before, and one can't blame me for thinking plating is more hastle than it's worth if this is going to be the result? (Yes I know the dye has nothing to do with the plating itself, but it's still a level of material applied to another)

As for finding faults with the FuZion - Well it comes boxed, it gets mounted and it works. No arguments over plating, dye being dumped into the coolant and no O-ring swap out. I think the only bad press I've seen is about the barbs being close and clamps being a pain to get on.

How ever, as I said above - if this beats the FuZion then it will be going into my new cube build.

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Originally Posted by Mekrel

Yeah, I own a FuZion and I also own an ApogeeGTX as of an hour ago. Got it sat here now. I figured that if the dye wears off, then I'll replace coolant after it's all worn away. I don't say what I say about the GTX because of the fact I own a FuZion. If the GTX is better then I'll put the GTX in - a lot easier than trying to defend something that isn't the best. Heh, I guess I'm paid too much.

We're hardly torturing gabe for asking questions, after all he and the other designers at Swiftech are the ones with the answers and I have not seen on person say anything about concluding any guilt towards Swiftech for not replying straight away.

The fact still remains though that part of the block albeit a small part comes off when you run water through it and I honestly believe that shouldn't happen. I've never owned a plated product so can't say that this has happened to me before, and one can't blame me for thinking plating is more hastle than it's worth if this is going to be the result? (Yes I know the dye has nothing to do with the plating itself, but it's still a level of material applied to another)

As for finding faults with the FuZion - Well it comes boxed, it gets mounted and it works. No arguments over plating, dye being dumped into the coolant and no O-ring swap out. I think the only bad press I've seen is about the barbs being close and clamps being a pain to get on.

How ever, as I said above - if this beats the FuZion then it will be going into my new cube build.

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You are a rarity that would take the trouble to buy and see for yourself. Go back to the beginning of this thread and count the number of people who are crapping on this block without a single morsel of ownership.

Hey, when I'm free, I'm opening both GTX blocks and cleaning them. I dump out loop water every month now. If its dye, I will see it in the water, because my liquid is clear and I don't use ethylene glycol (such as Pentosin or Zerex). If its small amount of dye, then it won't show up in my liquid, and so its inconsequential.

Hey, I like the FuZion as well, so you won't see me bad mouthing the FuZion.

Having said that, I am determined to become Storm free.. one day, I'll scream "free at last!"

Forgot to mention one aspect about the GTX I do like and would like to see at least a revision of the GT for... space between the barbs. Better performance, looks better (IMO), and is so much easier to put clamps on.

That is the only thing I can think of that I dislike about the D-Tek. It took me like 20 minutes to shove my spring clamps onto it's barbs. And then I just had to take one off to recut a peice of tubing... grrr.

And I agree threads like this are needed for product development/criticism. If there were problems like some mentioned here with the Fuzion there would be a thread for it.

Also it is not that I don't aggree with gabe that the Storm has been beat but... I think discontinuing it may have been a bit premature. There are still many people out there using naked core's that would wan't to take advantage of the Storm. And maybe in the future there will be again... but then again by that time everything else may be better aswell.

-hugs his storm- I'll never let it go, never!

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Originally Posted by Mekrel

Well, as you read I was asking the questions to go pick up the block today when I drop off my PC-343B to the powder coaters.

Yet, I don't use coolant or any additives in my loop - Just biocide. I don't personally think it's acceptable for dye to come off as it just to me, seems like it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Enjoy your block guys :)

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scrub it off with a tooth brush. Thats all it would take i think if its just water soluable die.

And you guys, i am totally bias to any brand. thats why i have a TDX in my drawer, a d-tek on my main right now, and the GTX chilling on my desk. Crapogee on my NAS, because my crapogee would pwn my TDX, but lose badly against my dtek and gtx... hence why i call it a crapogee. :D

If you dont like it... then just dont use it... Every maker has there 143!. thats i love you product.

If this is gabes 143, then, it has shown to be stronger competitor, which gabe wanted, its very pretty, i even admit that...

All we can do now is wait to see if Gabe is willing to make a brass top, or you take the product as it is. Dont like it? get a d-tek... thats all there is..

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Originally Posted by Petra

Just don't look at me for that one... :rolleyes:

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hmmmm... might be interesting if you did it. I love your DDC-T01 :D How many beers would it take? :D

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Originally Posted by Bun-Bun

Forgot to mention one aspect about the GTX I do like and would like to see at least a revision of the GT for... space between the barbs. Better performance, looks better (IMO), and is so much easier to put clamps on.

Also it is not that I don't aggree with gabe that the Storm has been beat but... I think discontinuing it may have been a bit premature. There are still many people out there using naked core's that would wan't to take advantage of the Storm. And maybe in the future there will be again... but then again by that time everything else may be better aswell.

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Then go buy a storm at jab-tech.com. Sorry Alex... you guys cant beat there price on the storm. Its only 54 dollars.

As i said, i think you guys gave gabe too much fire for not owning something. I showed you guys pictures of the insides, and serial as well as everyone says its still plated. We even got gabe to confirm after viewing all the pictures, thats its normal. Given he should of stated, the dye would come off on the package, But i think the block lived to all this promises

I dont know how much better pictures i could possibly give you guys. I think i gave pretty good ones myself! :fact:


As for me, my dtek is staying inside. Only because for me to swap my block out, i have to drain, untube the top, and then unmount. UGH.. too much work.. i'll pass...

Now if alex, or gabe was to release a ultra version of the top... hmmmm... :stick:

But... its an excellent block. Just very confrontational.. :T

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

Crapogee on my NAS, because my crapogee would pwn my TDX, but lose badly against my dtek and gtx... hence why i call it a crapogee.

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:nono: If you continue calling one of my children a crapogee, I will personnaly come and :slapass:

You have kids? What's their names?

Other than that, and the fact that if your "[Censored]apogee" is a GT version you probably forgot to hook-up the water lines -reason for it's high temps, I have no argument with you :toast:

I agree with whoever said where's the sense of humor in here.. and I confess that I tend to lose mine more often than not because of the job image.

Along these lines I just wanted to make an announcement: Swiftech will soon start selling surgical masks, gowns and gloves, and conduct in-depth seminars on how to fill-out a liquid cooling system in a totally sterile environment. I am enclosing a picture of the recommended accoutrements that will soon be promoted in our installation guides. We have reserved a free sample for Bun-bun, as well a front row seat at the next available seminar ;)

As for naked core cpu's.....i'm sure Swiftech could make the Apogee GT/GTX, with a stepped base like the MCW60's have, for the 'bare all' people ;), as well as offer it as the MCW60 GT :D

Got some pictures:

http://www.mekerz.tsohost.co.uk/Lian...%20002.jpg

http://www.mekerz.tsohost.co.uk/Lian...eGTX%20003.jpg

http://www.mekerz.tsohost.co.uk/Lian...eGTX%20004.jpg

http://www.mekerz.tsohost.co.uk/Lian...eGTX%20006.jpg

what is that crack at the bottom corner on the first pic?

Anyhow.. lol sorry for calling one of your children crap. But she's not an apogeeGT. Shes your original apogee, and i still use it!

But u cant compare it against a dtek or a GT. :P But your right, its still 1 out of 3 blocks i own that you make, i use. My last being a Storm. I had a MP-05, but my brother took that. Performed better with a #2 or 4accelerator. Cant remember.....

But yes, i'll refrain from my <censor>gee :P But i kinda like that nickname, and it stuck to me. :P

It gives that block personality, because,, i have to be going though crap in my loop to use it. That shows how reliable it is. I always come back to it as an emergency backup. :D

__ ;)

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Originally Posted by bito

As for naked core cpu's.....i'm sure Swiftech could make the Apogee GT/GTX, with a stepped base like the MCW60's have, for the 'bare all' people ;), as well as offer it as the MCW60 GT :D

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Hi Bito...loooong time no talk. Glad to see your'e still live and quickin' :-)

For you, we have to make a commerorative "Bito" edition for being one of our oldest customers.. It's been what 5 years? :D

How's the old country doing ?

Cheers

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

But u cant compare it against a dtek or a GT. :P But your right, its still 1 out of 3 blocks i own that you make, i use. My last being a Storm. I had a MP-05, but my brother took that. Performed better with a #2 or 4accelerator. Cant remember.....

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Thanks, and fully agreed - I'm :cool: now!

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Originally Posted by Mekrel

Got some pictures:

http://www.mekerz.tsohost.co.uk/Lian...eGTX%20002.jpg

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hmm, evidence of teflon tape in my threads? :mad:

hmm, replaced original fittings with Unidentified Fitting Object? :eek:

Seriously, what fittings are these? and why did you use teflon?

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Originally Posted by gabe

hmm, evidence of teflon tape in my threads? :mad:

hmm, replaced original fittings with Unidentified Fitting Object? :eek:

Seriously, what fittings are these? and why did you use teflon?

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Hehehehe, those would be the EK high flow barbs which I love the look of. They are a hair fraction under DD high flow and the ones which come with your block to resemble DD high flow barbs albeit a bit taller. Don't have my digital calipers to measure the ID. Yet I think the fraction of a mm isn't going to make that much difference seeing as this block will be on its own dedicated loop.

That teflon tape was messy, I've redone it since but used a different method. Folded the tape in half so it was no where near the end of the barb.

I've always used teflon tape in my setups and never had a problem.

Edit: That chip doesn't exist, camera must have had a hissy fit as nothing is there :)

heh... you'll be pleased with its performance.

Just make sure you use longer screws if your going to BOW, which i can see you are. TAke the factory mounts, to a hardware store and match its size but about 3/4 an inch longer. Thats my rough estimate, You could go longer, as i dont see any problems as it might casue. Just clearance issue.


And yeah definitely use a backplate. People were snapping at me for my bow, imagine yours without one, and with stock screws. :X

Lastly, mount the NB block, if your going to use one, or remount the factory hp after you completed your bow mounting. This screwed my NB mount and caused my NB temps to float really high. Umm.. if i remember anythign else about that block i'll just edit this post, or reply on another..

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Originally Posted by Mekrel

I've always used teflon tape in my setups and never had a problem.

Edit: That chip doesn't exist, camera must have had a hissy fit as nothing is there :)

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Barbs: really nice ; I like the extra ring too. Are these euro style (1/2 buried o-ring into fitting), or separate o-ring like ours?

Teflon: and you will never have a problem. I was just concerned that ppl would think that Teflon is either needed or effective in terms of leak protection with straight threads, since the seal is really only made by the o-ring. On the other hand, they can't hurt either, so there's no harm there :shrug:

Ghost chip: :D :D :D