what about the modification?Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
How do i know who are the bad caps?
what about the modification?Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
How do i know who are the bad caps?
In general is very hard to say which are bad. Temperature raise over 5 C at capacitor surface is a good rule of thumb. This means the power (=ripple current) inside the capacitor is so high level that the life time is shortened quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by inspire
In your case I was wondering if one (both?) capacitor is somehow mechanically damaged or loosen.
I sent an email for you including questions about card.
hello SikaRippaQuote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
i have much work these days. but spent some time soldering feedback caps!
1. i replaced C1 with 100nF one . mem clock decreased from 760 to 740 Mhz
2. then replaced C3 with 100nF. black screen on windows desktop again. (C1=100nF, C2-? nF)
3. replaced C2 with 10nF. no BS in 2d and 3d (not heavy app's yet) at 750 Mhz. (C1=C3=100nF)
(!)one strange moment(!). when i soldered C2 out (old cap) i used iron only from one side of cap. i saw that cap moved a little when i touched it only from one side with iron (320 C degrees). other side had very bad contact with PCB. and then cap was easy removed by tool. maybe it was bad soldered by manufacturer?
also I will try to find some time to go to service and measure old cap values.
are u sure u measured right
Non-BS-affected card:
C1 = 90 nF (~ +/- 10 nF)
C2 = 15 nF (~ +/- 5 nF)
C3 = 135 nF (~ +/- 20 nF)
values are close to image (http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2742/memfb17hp.jpg)
were C1=C3=100nF C2=10nF.
and i got now these values on my card.
so! feedback caps due effect on BS
4. (!) replaced sanyo caps (blue from radeon) with... tantalum EPCOS caps...
http://www.epcos.com/web/generator/W...locale=en.html
just 2 caps 680uF 6.3V. the seller wasn't sure which series this caps from.
card booted up ok, 2d and 3d ok... but only 760 Mhz as before this modification. and then BS again :(
can anyone tell me if this card is affected be this black screen effect. it has 45 caps, which i see haven't been mentioned a lot in this topic. Oh and how do you tell if its a Version 2 or 1B, i might have missed it when reading through the very interesting topic.
SikaRippa your english isn't bad really, well i can read it and i'm english so i should know what i'm on about. You have also done some very exhaustive work here and i thank you for it.
EDIT. its a gainward 6800le with i think 2.8ns (i haven't checked yet) Memory
I have now changed back to the original cooler. The labels on the green capacitors are: 4 5 470 6E. Hope it is of interest. See also the attached pictures.Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
today i soldered C3 back... stock cap
on my work PC I was able to run 3dmark05 three times at 850Mhz. (pIV-2800 Mhz prescott, asus p4p800-vm, 512 dual channel).
i hope at home i will have same result at least(athlon 64 2800+ @ 2300 Mhz, EP-8KDA3j, 1 Gig Hynix D43)
now feedback cap config is C1=100nF C2=10nF C3=stock (120-135nF i think)
I am also VERY busy :slobber: , and give a short answer. I hope I'll have more time at weekend..Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcv
--
Very interesting results, I appreciate people making that kind mods/testing :toast:
At first you example corfirms the theory: feedback have considerably effect on BS-performance. Second point is that things can be go easily wrong i.e. to have even more poor performance. Key point is the correct values !
--
The values I gave HAVE large tolerance/uncertainty issues due to used indirect measurement setup. Summary of those results can be expressed as:
- values VARIES between different models
- the order (=rough value) for target value is obtained
- EVEN WHEN HAVING THESE CAPACITOR VALUES BS CAN APPEAR
.. as has been reported (=BS with 'modified version') by some users like 'jabjab' (see above).
--
'zxcv': If you could measure those unsoldered caps it would be very helpful :)
I'll try to perform (some day) some optimization with simulator to find out better values for the components.
Thank you for nice comments. I am sure there are *some* typos/bad language used in the document, but if an English(wo?)man does not complaint ... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealuniverse
--
Yep, "4 5 470 6E" are rare. Card having those is 'version 1b' AFAIK at least it is not version 2'. If you could specify following details I can analyze more precisely:
- Codes of the two stickers bottom side of the card: First down/right (e.g. 'GW5841100910' ) and second in barcode (e.g. B041134230)
- Code in OK-sticker at connectors e.g. OK-64
- Made in China/Taiwan ?
- Misaligned tiny SMD-capacitors (see figure below) ?
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2...pmis6tt.th.jpg
OK, Thanks !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by xotoy
Now, I have good info to add to next update: Sparkle 6800 + "4 5 470 6E" = BS
That'll be an english man and everyone makes typo's and grammatical errors anyway :) . The codes are GW7041100880 and B041224758. the Ok sticker is OK11. it's made in china and has no misaligned capacitors where you have highlighted in your picture or anywhere else (that i can see, i might have missed it though if it is a very small difference :p: ).Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
Hope this info helps, i can post picutres if required. and if the capacitors are "faulty" then how long do i have before BS, Just like to know when to order some capacitors :D if i have to.
yes! 925 Mhz, no BS yet...
card modifications once again:
C1 changed to 100nF
C2 changed to 10nF
4 6 470 6E C136 and C143 changed to tantalum EPCOS caps 680uF 6.3 V
Thank you for codes. I listed so codes in post #328 (this data can not be yet found on document!)Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealuniverse
a version 1 (#1 example): G040900553, xxx
a version 1 (#2 example): G041003120, xxx
a version 1 (#3 example): G040814005, xxx
a version 2 (#1 example): B041201502, GW6841101282
a version 2 (#2 example): B041134662, GW6841100549
a version 1b (#1 example): B041134230, GW5841100910
a version 1b (#2 example): B041201576, CW7041100629
a version 1b (#3 example): B050113539, xxx
a version 1b (#4 example): B050113522, xxx
a version 1b (jabjab's card): B050113475, GW5841100417
your card: B041224758, GW7041100880 => 'version 1b' is the best match :)
The card "B041201576, CW7041100629" (C=G ??) was a brand new GW (~month) which has "4 9 470 6E" and not yet BS. Whether you will get BS in future, not yet known..
--
Those tiny capacitors might have changed also PROPERLY way i.e. NOT misaligned. As you can see in this foto (courtesy of 'jabjab' ;) ):
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3...11568mo.th.jpg
.. the 'degree of misaligment' can be LOW. The newest cards can of course be brand new (like you?) and *them* have been used altered values at the first point i.e. not modified from RMA'd cards. Maybe have different values for capacitors ?
IF (!!!!) this theory is correct we would have following list for codes (down/bottom sticker):
No sticker (v 1) -> BS ASAP
GW68*** (v 2)-> BS Later
GW58*** (v 1b, modified afterwards) -> can give BS later, usually working (?)
CW704** (v xx, new batch !) -> ????????
:up: :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcv
To get some idea what you have done: Do you have different capacitors for C1 and C2 (C3 is original) now ? What is changed between condition you had earlier when you got BS at lower frequency ? You had those EPCOS caps then OR those from Radeon ???? EPCOS are very good, do you have excatly these models:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/20/40/ds/HighCap_DS_series.pdf
---
Did you check the values of those original capacitors ?
I wonder the original values (in version 1b -card) can be C1 = 100nF, C2 = 10nF (see the tolerances I put !!). E.g. 90 nF is not a strandard value and it is much more likely to find a 100 nF in a design than a 90 nF capacitor.
here is the sequence of modifications:
1. i replaced stock C1 with 100nF one. mem clock decreased from 760 to 740 Mhz
2. then replaced C3 with 100nF. black screen on windows desktop again. (C1=100nF, C2-? nF)
3. replaced C2 with 10nF. no BS in 2d and 3d at 730 Mhz. (C1=C3=100nF)
4. replaced C136 and C143 with EPCOS tantalum caps - max mem clock 760 MHz again (the seller wasn't sure about series, but told me, that usually caps are 197-A series, which is low ESR). there are marks on PCB for palcing tantalum size-E caps =))) instead of alluminium caps.
5. replaced C3 back to stock. now i am able to run 3dmark05 at 925 mhz
i always use 3dmark05 for BS testing three times
my card running always 16x6 @ 375Mhz(core)
now gonna measure old (manufacturers) C1 and C2 values when i'll have a little more free time.
Thanks for detailed sequence. Good point that there are markings for tantalum size-E caps !!! I'll check my fotographs of MSI-card (version 1) without those caps to see whether those markings were used also at beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcv
Some thoughts:
- C3 had major effect, most likely original value is C3 = 150 nF (=150 standard value)
- adding EPCOS tantalum caps had MAJOR effect when having C3 = stock
=> EPCOS tantalum caps or similar (e.g POSCAP) might be best replacement for C136&C143 !!!
I thought that earlier, but I was worried those have too low ESR-value which could cause stability issues. Your test showed it is not a problem :clap:
----
If I undestood you had following (major) combinations:
1. All original -> BS at too low frequence
2. C136&C143 changed to PXA's -> 'BS frequence' increased a little
3. Playing with C1/C2/C3 -> 'BS frequence' decreased
4. C136&C143 changed to EPCOS -> 'BS frequence' increased a little
5. C1 = 100nF C2 = 10 nF (both changed, but might have original values?) C3 = original (150 nF?) -> 'BS frequence' increased A LOT
Correct ? What kind of capacitors you used for C1-C3 ? Ceramic with leads, or SMD ? The inductance of leads (and wires have some effect on response.
If you can provide values for C1/C2 it will be fine no matter takes time, measure those when OK for you :)
you understood everything correct, SikaRippa!
before modification my card looked like this one
http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?i...68000x19pr.jpg
there one missing cap on PCB. u can see marking for tantalum size-E cap. same markings i saw when soldered out C136 and C143.
about caps C1-C3. my new caps looks like prevous (manufacturers) caps. and we call them usually "Ceramic SMD caps".
I have no scanner at home but i will scan my card with good resolution and post images here.
P.S. tested card again. no BS at 925 Mhz yet.
SikaRippa thanks for the info. i'll put a post in if it does BS in the furure, it has the noisy audio problem and actually makes beeps and not just cracking to FPS although it does that as well. Strange?!?
all the problems have sort of taken a back seat as it does 16ps and 5vs, the sixth is faulty. haven't tried overclocking yet so that might give me some results.
I cannot see if the capacitors are the same as i don't have a setting on my multimeter to read them sorry. i think your final theory is a good logical one, but i have yet to figure out why mine "new" should have older 4 5 caps when the other example that is closest to it has 4 9 caps. Why would they use these older caps on a new board.
the card was manufactured roughly around week 17 in 05 as this is roughly what i get date wise from the lot numbers on the chips.Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
Exactly same label (or component frame) has been used by e.g. MSI and GW in that 'missing cap area' and beneath C136&C143. I though that marking is for SMD electrolytic capacitors, since two corners are non 90 degree just like the shape of the capacitor.Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcv
Since, it is clear EPCOS-capacitors gives better performance in your case, the exact series code would be *nice*. Can you see any code top of Epcos's ?
Here specifications of EPCOS-capacitors (B45197A-series, 'SpeedPower'):
[capacitance][case code][VR][Ileakage][ESR mohm][Iripple][code]
680 D 15 42.8 150 1.00 B45006D687*+157
680 E 6 42.8 45 1.91 B45006E687*+456
680 E 6 42.8 60 1.66 B45006E687*+606
680 E 15 42.8 100 1.28 B45006E687*+107
680 E 15 43.0 100 1.28 B45197A1687+50*
It is noteworthy that ESR is larger than with CV-EX/SVP/PXA -capacitors !! Also ripple-current is much lower. Maybe your capacitors are not this series ?
The noisy audio can be almost anything - I had beeps, cracles etc. e.g when playing Far Cry. It was very annoying at silient ambient :( . I will later post those oscillosscope fotos which show HOW wierd is the current consumption of this card. I think that every performance change (=memory operation) causes a current peak, which can be heard either from card or loadspeakers. Having one 'event' you get crackle, constantly varying changes gives whistle and random operation (normal program) generates everything you can imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealuniverse
About datecodes: what chip(s) you investigated ?
I think that theory after post and I am now quite sure it had to be correct or very near correct. The codes, manufacturing dates, misaligned caps all match to that model. I have also been thinking those capacitor codes (many months, in fact :) ), since it indeed does not make sense to put old capacitors (were you can get old lot !!) to brand new cards. One theory which could solve the problem is that they have used Hitano's capacitors in the new cards. Those look like exactly the same as CV-EX and have better performance (and probably different lot codes !!!)
http://www.globalsources.com/si/6008...GetProduct.htm
http://www.hitano.com.tw/PDF/EVS.pdf
I mainly went on the mosfets however there is another chip and i cannot remember where it is (as its now the following morning :p: ) that has a date code on as well, both turned out roughly the same. Would hitano's caps still have the same style of lot coding on it though (eg. 4 5 470 6E) as the CV-EX caps. it would however solve the problem of these newer cards not getting BS even when the caps are ment to be BS efffected, they've used a different manufacturer of caps.Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
Oh and you mentioned the audio and you can get pritty much anything, R2D2 sounds interesting in HL2. :)
hey great job SikaRippa :clap: I had a MSI 6800LE BS affected card untill 3 days ago but thanks to your guide I finally solved the problem (adding a capacitor between tp9 & tp10, 2200uF 6V). Two month ago I tryed with a capacitor in tp1(3300uF 25V), but only worked for 1 day and not with half life2. Now its all ok,nomore problems, its wonderful :banana:
The card has capacitor with numbers 4 3 470 6E. The first BS appeared only after a few month in HL2 all 3D marks GTA SA, Colin Mcrae Rally 05 but NEVER happened Playing DOOM 3(strange isn't it?)
I can also ear the "strange sound" whyle running 3Dmark
p.s this is my third MSI 6800LE card,The first 2 were RMAded (BS) but since this one could work in 16/6 configuration i wanted to keep it.
need other info?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD athlonXP 2500+@2400mhz
2X256mb CorsairTwinx @450mhz
AsusA7N8X-Deluxe
MSI 6800LE 16/6 370/700 :slapass:
I was studying mosfet's and regulator chip (when writing document) and found those were older with 'version 1b' than with 'version 2'. Chips on both card were relative old (2004) compared to your case.Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealuniverse
If the new card really have Hitano's capacitors, it gives proper explanation to senseless lot codes and better performace. Very hard to confirm which capacitors are used, take a look these fotos:
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3055/cvex1td.th.jpg
Sanyo CV-EX
http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/5...oevs0zi.th.jpg
Hitano EVS
Can you distinguish those ? The facts about 'green capacitors' are:
- I have seen in Chinese www-page (!!!) a review of GF6800le-card, and a string 'Sanyo CV-EX capacitors' was mentioned below figure (yes, I cannot read chinese but why to have that string ?)
- Lot codes are not very logical with NEWER cards
- I have bought (!!) Sanyo CV-EX capacitors (not the exactly same model) and THOSE have similar labels
- I have never seen Hitano's EVS capacitors 'in live' and NO OTHER foto except the www-page above mentioned (could it be wrong foto ???, I have seen wrong fotos of components earlier)
--
Have anyone ever seen Hitano's EVS capacitors in live ??
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by robb-x
Nice you get card working :up:
MSI-cards have been the hardest modify AFAIK. I do know the exact reason (yet), but maybe there are tiny differents at components values. At least MSI's cards have different inductors..
It is quite common NOT have BS while HL2 gives BS ASAP. It is strange indeed, since D3 is really heavy application. There have to be major differences inside programs how they used/allocate video memory etc.
The MSI-card (provided by 'money2' ) failed later on also with 'Enhanced capacitor mod', but now working again after changing capacitors :D. It was similar to yours ("4 3 470 6E"), and that might indicate you will have problems .. sorry to be so pessimistic. BUT in that case changing the capacitors can give final solution also to your problem !
--
Want to help, nice ! In Finish forum we started to collect detailed info about MSI-cards. I want to find out also differences between MSI's cards to have better identification list. Here are the questions I asked:
'Do you have MSI GF6800(le)-card, please give following details'
Real example (money2's card)
model: MSI 6800le (quadro)
age: ~ year, BS came very soon
mods: Adding capacitor to TP's did not help long, changing capacitors to Chemi-con's PXA-seriers (820 uF, 6.3 V) helped
Capacitors (C136&C143): "4 3 470 6E"
Bottom line of large barcode: 4719072010706, NX6800LE-TD128B0409148455
Small barcode: 4910958269'
Yellow sticker: 030
Other stickers/any specials: ?
I haven't seen hitano's caps (i might be staring at them right now), but i've found in the data sheets that the capacitor sizes are slightly different in height or length depending upon which way you look at them. the only problem i have is measuring accurately enough to distunguish between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
1 hour later
i have just done the most accutate piece of measuring in the world (with a tape measure and straight pieces of wire) and i am nearly sure they're sanyo's caps as they corrispond exactly to the size stated in the data sheet. hitano's would be smaller in length and these are not..
hope this helps
Here are the codes... :( they are very similar to the ones of money2
..one day i'll have to change the caps...but for now I stick with the enhanced
cap mode. Maybe if I don't overclock the RAM It's going to work for a longer
time?!I'll let you know when i get BS back (better if not ;) )
model: MSI 6800le (quadro)
age: ~ year, BS came after ~2month
mods: Adding capacitor to TP1 did not help long especially with HL2,adding capacitor to tp9 & tp10 (2200uF,6V) is working at the moment
Capacitors (C136&C143): "4 3 470 6E"
Bottom line of large barcode: 4719072010786, NX6800LE-TD128B0409148450
Small barcode: 4910958042
Yellow sticker: 030
Other stickers/any specials: never BS in DOOM3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD athlonXP 2500+@2400mhz
2X256mb CorsairTwinx @450mhz
AsusA7N8X-Deluxe
MSI 6800LE 16/6 370/700