OCZ to come out with new VERTEX SSD,S equiped with 64MB OF CACHE starting at $129

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Originally Posted by Brahmzy

Wow man, you've got somethin' SERIOUSLY wrong with your R0 setup then. FO3, L4D, FEAR 1 & (2 I'm sure as well) (only games I've tried that you listed) FC2 etc., all are almost halved in load times. I remember going from a 2 VR R0 setup to a 3 VR setup and I specifically remember all of my games showing about a 1/3 decrease in load times. Don't know what you're doin' wrong, but R0 lives up to it's benches when it comes to large file reads and writes.

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I think what may be happening is that a single X25 has more than enough IOPS for the programs that One_Hertz is using. Whereas your Titan and Raptors are not capable of completely satisfying the programs you were using, thus when you added a drive it improved because your IOPS improved slightly. I do not believe that IOPS improve as well as Throughput on RAID0 configs though. Well, that's my theory at least.

X25- capable of more than enough IOPS by itself
Other MLCs - capable, but can't provide enough IOPS on its own.

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Originally Posted by Brahmzy

Wow man, you've got somethin' SERIOUSLY wrong with your R0 setup then. FO3, L4D, FEAR 1 & (2 I'm sure as well) (only games I've tried that you listed) FC2 etc., all are almost halved in load times. I remember going from a 2 VR R0 setup to a 3 VR setup and I specifically remember all of my games showing about a 1/3 decrease in load times. Don't know what you're doin' wrong, but R0 lives up to it's benches when it comes to large file reads and writes.

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my results are pretty consistent with that review:
http://techreport.com/articles.x/16291/5

Back when I went from two raptors to 4 raptors there was also no changes to anything. One to two there was some.

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Originally Posted by Griff805

For reference...

It looks like OCZ might have realized the error of their ways

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First off. Thanks for engaging in the debate. I honestly believe that without people saying "Hang on. I don't agree" then we'd get nowhere.

I do have to ask though, no matter what OCZ do you seem to have a hard on for abusing them.

They don't have a product in line with Intel. It's clear from the price. Who do you spread so much hate?

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Originally Posted by Halk

First off. Thanks for engaging in the debate. I honestly believe that without people saying "Hang on. I don't agree" then we'd get nowhere.

I do have to ask though, no matter what OCZ do you seem to have a hard on for abusing them.

They don't have a product in line with Intel. It's clear from the price. Who do you spread so much hate?

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It's not hate. OCZ is a company- A Company's main goal is to make a profit.

I am a consumer, my main goal is to get the best product for a price that is fair to me.

As a consumer I have to make sure that a company is not selling me a product that doesn't live up to their marketing-

The OCZ core drive was a product that did NOT live up to their marketing. Not one word was mentioned about stuttering or having to tweak anything to have it operate as written on the box the drive came in. Not only did that waste my money, it wasted A LOT of my time, as I spent well over 60-70 hours working with OCZ to try and get them to work properly.

Now, I understand that SSD is a new technology, but their marketing did not mention 1 thing about incompatibilities with different motherboards and controllers. On the box it stated RAID Support, however they DID NOT work on my RAID controller- They actually became corrupt after a few days use, no matter what configuration they were in.

When I went to the OCZ forum, I was the first or second person to open a thread about the Core SSD drives. You won't see that thread now because they "moved" it. They had no idea about any of these issues that I was having with my drives. This angered me as it showed me that they DID NOT do any kind of thorough testing before releasing a very expensive product. As everyone now knows that it was a very common issue. All I got back from OCZ for a while was that they couldn't recreate the issue in the office, so in their eyes, there was no problem, it's just my system or faulty drives. Actually they didn't even have any drives to work with till about 3 weeks after my first post. I was the one who had to go out looking for a solution, thats when I found MFT and was extremely hopeful about it as I had a nice long talk with Sam Anderson at EasyCo and he helped me get MFT up and running for the first time on a Core drive. I brought it to Tony and Ryder's attention. But in the end, I still had corruption issues due to the drives themselves. I don't care if every other SSD has this issue, as a consumer I am appalled that any of the SSD companies would release a product without proper testing and quality assurance.

As consumers we should not accept this kind of practice from companies that want our hard earned money-

It all boils down to the company did not deliver on promises it made to me, the customer, and only after weeks of "beta" testing for OCZ did they make the situation right. They got their money's worth out of me and the other guys on that forum. I don't want other consumers out there getting taken for a quick buck- So yes, I am going to be hard on any company that touts their product as being great, because I don't want others to be blinded by slick marketing and great reviews.

You may feel like you can trust OCZ Forum employees, But you have to remember that they work for a company that is trying to make money off of our desire to have the best of the best. They make a living off of us purchasing their products- and I am fine with that, I understand completely- They also have to answer to someone about what they write on the forum. OCZ may do few things differently than other companies, and I do like some things about OCZ- But they are still a company selling a product.

I'm just here trying to make sure people make purchases they don't regret- Without people being a pain in the butt on the OCZ forum, Vertex would not be shipping with this new firmware- They would probably have released the Vertex with a different JMicron controller- or whatever was cheapest at the time.

Last thing... the X25-M is not that much more expensive than the Vertex. At launch, yes it was- but as of now, they are in the same price range. $30-40 is not a lot of money when you're talking about $200-300 drives that will be most likely put in pricey desktops- or of course laptops. So don't give me that crap about not being in the same category/class of drive-

Alright- I'm done... you asked Halk, that's why-

While all of the input from the various parties here is very interesting and informative, I am astounded by how upset and rude people can get over personal computer hardware.
If someone bought a Core they should have known that they were stepping into uncertain waters and might get burnt by the pretty new fire. We who bought them were pioneers. It now seems Vertex is shaping up to be a really nice disk with a greater degree of certainty behind it's functionality.

While I agree somewhat, I also think it's inappropriate for hardware...or software manufacturers to essentially beta test products on consumers without their knowledge before hand. It's more than a little difficult to believe SSD manufacturers were unaware of the JMicron controller's inability to handle even small OS tasks without stuttering.

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Originally Posted by saint-francis

While all of the input from the various parties here is very interesting and informative, I am astounded by how upset and rude people can get over personal computer hardware.
If someone bought a Core they should have known that they were stepping into uncertain waters and might get burnt by the pretty new fire. We who bought them were pioneers. It now seems Vertex is shaping up to be a really nice disk with a greater degree of certainty behind it's functionality.

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So you actually buy hardware that might do nothing more than act as a paperweight? I know there's quirks with new technology, but a hard drive that can't keep good data? or deliver data in a timely manner?? Come on- do you not have any standards for companies?

If you bought the core drive thinking you might not actually be able to use it, then you're an XXXX yeah, I'm being rude again-

It depends how much moola someone shelled out for those first drives. And I know when they first came out they weren't cheap.

Griff

Did OCZ not look after your issue with your drive(s)?

Im getting to the point where i am asking myself what you bring to my forum...and yes it is my forum..I run it.

Please consider OCZ do try to do our best with all our customers, we offered refunds to some which meant we lost heavily on those purchases just to keep those end users happy. We are trying to bring new technology at a price people can afford...not everyone can afford $400 or $500 drives.Yes i was not as knowledgeable about SSD at the start as i am now, im not a flash engineer, but i have researched, tested...battled to gain answers and pulled together a bunch pf people who have even educated the likes of M$. We published partition alignment on SSD way before anyone else, we have also now discovered 128K stripes are just not cutting it with SSD...heck we even published the steadystate work around which other websites are now saying is a good workaround for the slow downs Intel drives have.

I have read your say, and i would hope you will not bring that tone to the OCZ forum...

Did ocz deliver what they promised with the drives?
No.
Did they try to help the customer to get the best out of the drives?
yes.

It shouldnt be suprising you get a ton of crap as you didnt deliver on what was stated.
Your also not ducking the head in the sand regarding the issues.
Which is a great customer benefit.

Vertex looks promising and exactly is what most who want a great desktop expereince needs.

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Originally Posted by Tony

Griff

Did OCZ not look after your issue with your drive(s)?

Im getting to the point where i am asking myself what you bring to my forum...and yes it is my forum..I run it.

Please consider OCZ do try to do our best with all our customers, we offered refunds to some which meant we lost heavily on those purchases just to keep those end users happy. We are trying to bring new technology at a price people can afford...not everyone can afford $400 or $500 drives.Yes i was not as knowledgeable about SSD at the start as i am now, im not a flash engineer, but i have researched, tested...battled to gain answers and pulled together a bunch pf people who have even educated the likes of M$. We published partition alignment on SSD way before anyone else, we have also now discovered 128K stripes are just not cutting it with SSD...heck we even published the steadystate work around which other websites are now saying is a good workaround for the slow downs Intel drives have.

I have read your say, and i would hope you will not bring that tone to the OCZ forum...

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I only brought this up because Halk asked. And no, I am not bringing this "tone" to the OCZ forums. You can look at my previous posts there, and you'll see that all I am doing is trying to make sure people look at all performance aspects of SSD, not just the max throughput. I know most don't think highly of me, but I know there's a few that appreciate the points that I talk about.

Yes, OCZ is now doing things very differently than before it seems. Which is great- However, as I referenced in the previous post, that kind of support was not always there. I keep reading people on your forum stating to people who are frustrated with their drives, something along the lines of "Customers who buy SSDs should know that you have to tweak things about them to get them to work right" and yet when the Core drives were released, you and everyone else on the forum knew nothing of SSD tweaking. As far as you knew, the Core drives were perfect. So, that's my point- it's very hypocritical to expect all SSD customers know what they are getting into. I'm just looking out for the customers- I'll stop talking about SSD if no one else wants me to. You can ban me, I don't mind. I won't even mention OCZ on this forum anymore if that's what people want-

I do like the new tone that OCZ is taking on the forums though- I was VERY surprised by the firmware decision. Just hope they remember that the average customer doesn't know ALL there is to know about SSD.

Well, I'm done. I don't really feel like talking about this anymore-

Halk brought it up as i feel he was getting a little tired of hearing you moaning.

You have just admitted you prefer what you see on the OCZ forum now, OCZ are learning, they trust what i do with the forum and as yet have not had to tell me to do anything specifically..all you see there especially on the SSD forum is my doing.

I suggest you move on now...im getting tired following you around. Enjoy your new drives...its just a shame they did not work on your raid card to well...same card the core drives were poor on?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...1&postcount=93

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I picked up an X25-M and tried running it on an Adaptec 31605 and it benched like crap. Read/Write speeds were all over the place. With cache on, it did horrible, with cache off, it did not as horrible.

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Originally Posted by Griff805

It's not hate. *snip*

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Same idea with me. I bought two OCZ Core V2 60GB drives right at release (which was just under $500USD mind you), after a few dozen hours of tweaking and trying everything I figured out they were not usable on onboard controller, so I went out and spent another $350-400USD on a good controller to try to fix everything. Dozens more hours later it is still unusable and I am out almost $900 bucks. At that point I just bought Intels. Both the cores and the adaptec 5405 (which turned out to be a horrible raid card for SSDs, which OCZ reps recommend for some reason to this day) are now paper weight.

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Originally Posted by Tony

Halk brought it up as i feel he was getting a little tired of hearing you moaning.

You have just admitted you prefer what you see on the OCZ forum now, OCZ are learning, they trust what i do with the forum and as yet have not had to tell me to do anything specifically..all you see there especially on the SSD forum is my doing.

I suggest you move on now...im getting tired following you around. Enjoy your new drives...its just a shame they did not work on your raid card to well...same card the core drives were poor on?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...1&postcount=93

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Ha, No, it's the same card (I bought in attempts to get the drives working right, due to recommendation by OCZ) the Core drives didn't even communicate with. At least with the Intel's I could actually use them as a hard drive.

Move on? Yeah, figures companies wouldn't want their crap brought to light-

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Originally Posted by One_Hertz

the adaptec 5405 (which turned out to be a horrible raid card for SSDs, which OCZ reps recommend for some reason to this day) are now paper weight.

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Strange you would say that. Sure are a lot of people using that card with success.

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Originally Posted by Praz

Strange you would say that. Sure are a lot of people using that card with success.

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It cuts random reads by 30% or more. It adds latency. Most people aren't aware, simple as that. Sure the cache helps, but there are other raid cards that don't cut the reads and also have cache.

praz heres per one_hertz post^

arc1231 - 512MB
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6756/1231512.png

asr5805 - 512MB
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7968/5805512.png

http://www.xtremesystems.org/Forums/...&postcount=134

^^^^^

Yep. The difference is even more drastic on X25-Es.

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Originally Posted by Tony

..all you see there especially on the SSD forum is my doing.

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Btw, nice of you to take the credit for all the work your customers did on that forum. Just a reminder, you're not the only forum out there that takes input from it's customers. I use other products that have forums where I can actually speak with the software/hardware engineers directly. As well as speak directly with the company VIPs. No need to go through some PR guy who doesn't even know anything about what he's supporting-

Griff, I've got a feeling playtime is about over with.

X25-E is better than the Vertex no? Please some Benchmarks between both SSDs.

[LEFT]

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Originally Posted by GNU

X25-E is better than the Vertex no? Please some Benchmarks between both SSDs.

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I'd like to see benchmarks between an X25-E and an array of OCZ drives, preferably Vertex. However I don't think anyone is going to argue that a single X-25 is better than a single Vertex. The Vertex with the new IOPS friendly firmware seems to close the gap a little - it turns out there's a clear advantage with the new firmware.

The X-25 controller would seem to be the best around at the moment. I suspect a higher proportion of the cost of the drive is on the controller than anyone elses.

The Vertex's advantage is price, and when you look at the 30GB drive it just seems to be asking for RAID0.

X-25 owners have said that RAID0 doesn't seem to give any noticable speed increase. Either that means RAID0 doesn't do much, or the drive is already so fast any speed increase isn't going to deliver any real world performance increases. Something factual and absolute is that any file sizes around the stripe size or smaller gain no benefit from RAID. If these file sizes are the ones taking up your drives time then RAID0 isn't going to do anything.

Most reviews of the drives don't look at RAID0, so we'd be relying on an end user who had both an X-25 and a couple of Vertex in RAID0 doing proper testing, and not having an agenda. I just can't see someone who owns an X-25 buying Vertex drives, or vice versa.

At least the good news is that more and more information is coming out about SSD related things, which can only lead to better products, better configurations and pitfalls being avoided.

Ultimately though if an application was going to open in 5 seconds on a mechanical drive, and opens in 1 second on an SSD drive, then RAID0'ing it to shave that down to 0.75 of a second isn't really much of a benefit.

I was quite dubious about the IOPS performance of drives, until the Vertex drive was shown with both a firmware which allows high sequential speeds, and a firmware which facilitates as many IOPS as possible (I assume within reason). The result was lower "simple" benchmarks (which don't mean anything) and better results in simulated "real world" benchmarks.

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Originally Posted by GNU

X25-E is better than the Vertex no? Please some Benchmarks between both SSDs.

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In what way? Raw performance? I think yes, though many disagree. Performance & value together? I don't think anyone says that.

Vertex isn't even out yet. People can agree and disagree but in the end- no one really knows how it will perform.

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Originally Posted by Halk

[LEFT]However I don't think anyone is going to argue that a single X-25 is better than a single Vertex. The Vertex with the new IOPS friendly firmware seems to close the gap a little - it turns out there's a clear advantage with the new firmware.

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Wrong. I am going to argue. Overall performance is totally unknown. Don't jump to conclusions that early. Preview results were disappointing, but it may have the potential.