Swiftech Apogee Discussion ( The Cat is Out of the Bag )

i almost feel sad how i ordered a storm but i wont take off my IHS. maybe my opinion will change by the time i put it all together.

Gabe I understand you are a busy man, but I would like to urge you to answer the following questions are they are very important to the validity of Swiftechs testing.

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Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer

I would like to clarify a few items about the TTV you guys are using. In Intels tech doc you link to on the swiftech website it shows the 775. You also say Swiftech has been using the TTV for 2 years now when the 775 Socket has been out for only ~1.5 years( Released summer 2k4). I know that it is possible that Swiftech recieved a TTV before the release date so this is why I bring it up. Not calling you a liar, merely asking a question.

My next question is how has swiftech attaced the thermocouple/RTD (I would assume RTD as Bill despises anything but RTD). According to Intels tech doc it should be attached by milling out a tiny line halfway across the IHS, leaving a step at the end for the needle probe to rest on. the needle probe should then be covered in loctite thermal adhesive to ensure proper placement and to minimize the effect of the probe. Following this method the needle probe will be dead center above the cpu core and the surace of the IHS will be continuous and level (ie. the cutout is completely covered over)

My final question is which Intel CPU does Swiftech use for testing. On your website it says "Standard Test Equipment and Procedures for current microprocessor generations featuring die sizes from 140mm and up." but does not state the actual die size and the actual cpu used for testing. If a cpu is not actaully used, please excuse the comment as Intels tech docs lead me to believe that a cpu was infact used for testing.

Oh and one last thing. Has the TTV as a whole been kept constant in its configuration with regards to the testing of the MCW600X Storm and Apogee. I am refering to the more recent testing and the older testing from when the MCW600X was released and from when the Storm was released.


My question MAY seem a bit nitpicky, but changing certain aspects of the TTV testing can greatly effect the results that are had.

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As to the overclocking testing, I will have to agree with Stew on this one. A single cpu in which only a single test with each waterblock is done, I can hardly call this conclusive. Granted I am not saying I dont apreciate Gabe taking the time to do the testing, but I wouldnt take these results as very useful data. And for that matter I take orkans overclocking experiences in the same light.

I will say something here. If you take a MCW6002, Storm, Apogee, RBX, TDX, WhiteWater, and Cascade and test overclocking ability on lets say the X24400, with enough remounting and testing you could 95% chance get them all to the same overclock. They all cool relatively well and the range of performance isnt that great and thus their overclock will be about the same, if not exactly the same. So with that said I do not dispute that you could achieve the same performance in mhz with the apogee that you could with the Storm, but rather I dispute Swiftechs test data and methodology.

While all of those waterblocks could most likely get you the same performance in mhz, their actual cooling ability is NOT the same and should not be labeled as such.

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

note its a she, eva2000

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LOL i'm a guy :D

i'm really haven't looked into Apogee discussion much right now I have

2x cathar g4 storms
1x swiftech g4 storm
1x swiftech mcw6002 amd64
1x swiftech mcw6002 lga775
1x zalman wb3 gold <-- not yet played with
1x silverprop cyclone se s478
1x silverprop cyclone se amd64 <-- not yet played with

As cathar stated, i can remount g4 storm on my amd64 s939 cpus several dozen times and get varying max overclocks that can differ from 50-100+ mhz and sometimes varying idle temps.

I'm no pro when it comes to water cooling, all i go by is my max benchable and max stable overclocks (temps are of a secondary concern for me).

G4 Storm works perfectly everytime on my LGA775 rig just AMD64 get's all weird on me i.e. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...hlight=mcw6002

I've tested

3x 3200+ winchesters
2x 3000+ venices
2x 3500+ winchesters
2x 3700+ san diegos
1x 4000+ san diego
1x fx-57
2x opteron 144

with G4 storm and MCW6002

and now cpus listed in my sig LOL

I've now on as far to retest by buying a completely new radiical triple fan single pass rad, and silverprop cyclone se s939 block to compare with my g4 storm and mcw6002 later on to see what's up - won't be anything scientific like cathar's testing just going to see which block gives me best consistent max stable/benchable overclocks and stick with that.. for now just using 2x corsair hydrocool 1/4 external units which give me perfect consistent mounts and overclocks everytime using below pictured adaptor for s478 to s939 LOL

http://www.fileshosts.com/watercooli...rocool_006.jpg

Helps i now have some custom made psus for upto 13.8v for my pumps (MCP600/MCP650/MCP655) too http://www.fileshosts.com/watercooling/custompsu/html/ :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eva2000

LOL i'm a guy :D

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Thanks for confirmation eva LOL :D :D

Looking forward to your test result :toast:

btw, look like you've too many toys to play with, i'm jealous :D :D

Just tried water and got addicted.. converted 3 of my 5 pcs to water cooling and eventually all my pcs will be water cooled - as summer in Brisbane is bloody hot - last summer had upto 36C room ambients as no air con LOL

but this year it will be different http://i4memory.com/showthread.php?t=1934 :)

wow. hope you'd not mind if i'll get 1 of that Portable Aircon so my CPU'll be as :cool: as yours. eva :D

I'd definatly consider getting something like that for my room. Gets pretty hot out here in vegas as well. Personally i dread the summers, and so does my pc. Wouldnt be too friendly on the electricity bill i imagine.

The good news, there was no cracked top, and i have ZERO leaks on my first watercooling system.

The finish on the block was excellent. No nicks or anything. Extremely smoothe.
http://www.thecowsaysmoo.org/budwise...rum/Apex-3.jpg

Here is during some leak testing
http://www.thecowsaysmoo.org/budwise...rum/Apex-2.jpg

Here is the final look
http://www.thecowsaysmoo.org/budwise...rum/Apex-1.jpg


And the bad news...

As you can see, this is what i saw as i opened it up. There is one shaving just sitting there in plain view. The is obviously poor QC... I truly thought that they had tightened down on QC since the last batch. Guess not...
http://www.thecowsaysmoo.org/budwise...rum/Apex-5.jpg

These are the smaller two shavings that i found. There was one big one about 50% larger than these, but it was small enough to get lost on my desk lol...

http://www.thecowsaysmoo.org/budwise...rum/Apex-4.jpg

nice piccies.......show us some results :D

so far i have my 170 at 2700 w/ 1.45Vcore. 26C Idle 38C Load. Is it just me or does this seem kinda high?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dinos22

alright orkan why don't you post your actual results with IHS-less CPU.......somehow i doubt there will be much of a difference without IHS but hey I could be wrong=speculation(bottom line)..........show us the results pls

how is gabe slaying Storm again? I must have missed that bit somehow:confused:

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Precisely the reason why I chose not to respond.

BTW, he never sent us his defective block back although he promised it in public to me on pro cooling forum.

In any case, I am only interested in responding to technical fact/questions/issues. Company policy, strategy, and confidential information (MaxxRacer please take note) are no matters to be discussed on a forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Budwise

These are the smaller two shavings that i found. There was one big one about 50% larger than these, but it was small enough to get lost on my desk lol...

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These are no shavings, they are leftover pins. Normally solidly attached to the base. Where these "lose" in the block, or attached to the base ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Budwise

so far i have my 170 at 2700 w/ 1.45Vcore. 26C Idle 38C Load. Is it just me or does this seem kinda high?

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that seems VERY low....what sort of ambient temps are we talking

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

These are no shavings, they are leftover pins. Normally solidly attached to the base. Where these "lose" in the block, or attached to the base ?

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They were loose in the block but kinda wedged in there. I took a thin piece of metal and just picked em out of there. I looked at the pins very carefully even though i didnt have a magnifying glass, and it didnt appear than any were missing or damaged. They were not at all big enough to be pins in my judgement.

Quote:

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They were not at all big enough to be pins in my judgement.

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agreed, how can you call those pins? What do you think those metal shavings floating around in the loop are going to do to the pump?

well, i got all that i could see out of there and i went down each channel with a piece of metal to knock anything loose out. I pray that i dont see some glitter in there later :( I may just try to find a Storm to put my mind at ease.


Gabe: Im guessin there is no way to swap this out for a Storm? because there is obviously some QC issues and im not too happy with that for my first water rig...

Is the picture the custom mounts? Is that mounted on a stock s939 cpu mount?

Would you be willing to share some more info on that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eva2000

LOL i'm a guy :D

i'm really haven't looked into Apogee discussion much right now I have

2x cathar g4 storms
1x swiftech g4 storm
1x swiftech mcw6002 amd64
1x swiftech mcw6002 lga775
1x zalman wb3 gold <-- not yet played with
1x silverprop cyclone se s478
1x silverprop cyclone se amd64 <-- not yet played with

As cathar stated, i can remount g4 storm on my amd64 s939 cpus several dozen times and get varying max overclocks that can differ from 50-100+ mhz and sometimes varying idle temps.

I'm no pro when it comes to water cooling, all i go by is my max benchable and max stable overclocks (temps are of a secondary concern for me).

G4 Storm works perfectly everytime on my LGA775 rig just AMD64 get's all weird on me i.e. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...hlight=mcw6002

I've tested

3x 3200+ winchesters
2x 3000+ venices
2x 3500+ winchesters
2x 3700+ san diegos
1x 4000+ san diego
1x fx-57
2x opteron 144

with G4 storm and MCW6002

and now cpus listed in my sig LOL

I've now on as far to retest by buying a completely new radiical triple fan single pass rad, and silverprop cyclone se s939 block to compare with my g4 storm and mcw6002 later on to see what's up - won't be anything scientific like cathar's testing just going to see which block gives me best consistent max stable/benchable overclocks and stick with that.. for now just using 2x corsair hydrocool 1/4 external units which give me perfect consistent mounts and overclocks everytime using below pictured adaptor for s478 to s939 LOL

http://www.fileshosts.com/watercooli...rocool_006.jpg

Helps i now have some custom made psus for upto 13.8v for my pumps (MCP600/MCP650/MCP655) too http://www.fileshosts.com/watercooling/custompsu/html/ :)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eagleclaw

Is the picture the custom mounts? Is that mounted on a stock s939 cpu mount?

Would you be willing to share some more info on that?

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yes that is a custom mount he got from Japan.....i believe clevor picked up a couple of them for him

mounted on one of his Socket939 CPUs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

These are no shavings, they are leftover pins. Normally solidly attached to the base.

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^^ exactly what he told me. Basically said in order for there to be shavings, I must have taken a dremel or something, and started carving off pins.

As for the block return: It will get sent back gabe. I'm going to call you within the next week with a tracking number. Have a little patience. I too run a business, and delegate my time. I've been a little busy getting this STORM, and the rest of my gear ready for my loop. :) :slap:

ya, there is no way those are pins... It would be nice if Gabe acknowledged that apparently there is still a QC issue. I did no dremeling, i dont even own a dremel. I could see one of the shavings sitting in there through the barb hole when i opened the box even. I wasnt originally gonna open it up as i assumed that the issue had been fixed but after i saw what looked like a shaving in there i quickly popped the top and take a closer look. Anyone know where i can find a Storm for less than $80?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dinos22

yes that is a custom mount he got from Japan.....i believe clevor picked up a couple of them for him

mounted on one of his Socket939 CPUs

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exactly got them from clevor in Japan, basically allows using s478 heatsinks on s939 motherboards as my corsair hydrocool doesn't have s939 mounting only s478

more pics of adaptor in use on Clevor's MSI K8N Neo2 here http://www.fileshosts.com/watercooling/HC200/AMD64/web/ and my MSI K8N Neo2 http://fileshosts.com/AMD/MSI/K8N_NEO2/chipset/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Budwise

Anyone know where i can find a Storm for less than $80?

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http://www.crazypc.com/Merchant2/mer...duct_Code=9303

Better get them while the getting is good... because you cant find them many places anymore. This is pretty sad.

Cathar, please tell me your next block is on the way, and or you will be finding someone else to market/make the storm?

Man Im glad I got mine when they were only 60$. I didnt know they actually costs that much.:woot:

Yep. Worth it if you've got the right pump, too. BTW, CoolerGuys has it for $69.95.