3 hrs done....
If any RF user wants my settings, all they have to do is request it.... probe shows some of the volts anyway.... I'm moving on....
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...4850190c20.jpg
Printable View
3 hrs done....
If any RF user wants my settings, all they have to do is request it.... probe shows some of the volts anyway.... I'm moving on....
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...4850190c20.jpg
Wow! Great... Will be there soon with my new CPU :)
Thanks for rapid answers...
Is the Q9650 worth the $50 premium over the Q9550?
depends on what motherboard and cooling you have....
I`m just curious to see how far I can play with the chip and got this after few reboot. http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=494446
I manage to boot into windows once at 5Ghz but forgot to do validation. Fail to do that again after that. :( Will try again this weekend.
Bad thing is I killed my 4850 when I drop a Maglite torchlight on it while poking around the motherboard.:rofl:
Water cooled...D-tek...Thermochill...etc...either DFI UT P45, EVGA 780i, or Foxconn ELA...the first and last with Volterra digital CPU VRD.
the q950 is probably worth it because with those p45s your gonna be able to hit 4.5 with luck
heres my latest, going to call it a night and wake up early and start doing some serious OCing.http://i41.tinypic.com/juixpj.jpg
Q9550 Quick 2hr P95 run... still priming...
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...869dbf62b3.jpg
very very nice zucker2k.thats just amazing,with 8gigs of ram.seeing what you can with 8GB,makes me want to take out my cellshocks and throw in my 8GB of g.skill 8800's.since im still unable to run high fsb with this 9650 and use the 5:6 divider.
Thanks, Radaja. A few things; I'm running a rather high vcore (should be around 1.50v for my C1 Q9550; the NBv is also high because of the 8GB ram with high fsb.Quote:
Originally Posted by radaja
how much higher does it need to be(vNB)using 8 gigs at 500fsb,or should i say if you were using say 2 gigs at 500fsb what would your vNB be at?and then with 8 gigs it would be.......?just curious as to what kinds of voltage increase would i need when i install my 8gigs?
For 8.5 x 500 FSB, and 8GB ram, I usually need 1.65v for the NB, with 4Gb (2x 2GB, around 1.59v). I just wanted to run everything a bit higher than normal as I'm not tweaking, but just trying to show what's possible with the hardware in my sig, 4 hard drives, and an optical drive; all connected. I don't have a bench station, this is my everyday system with regular OS (Vista x64 SPI).Quote:
Originally Posted by radaja
Edit: 3hrs done....
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...dab3c1c70e.jpg
4hrs done and small ffts cycle complete....
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...be2a93d178.jpg
That's one hot cpu :eek:
dang i thought i was pumpin alot :cool:
Lol, I've primed it to 1c of tjmax; tjmax is there for a reason. Good thing is, it's still running. :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Celcius
this proc is great. Got myself one with a beatiful batch - now waiting for an appropriate rad to arrive and will post my results then. :D
Hopefully these screenshots are satisfactory enough :rolleyes:
9hrs done...
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...0b403d8c6b.jpg
Just to give an idea how stable the system is....
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...2d67857d03.jpg
12hrs+ complete....
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...93674d44ba.jpg
zucker2k awesome! im satisfied with two hours of prime,so i think you can can definetly call that stable!great OC.keep it up
sorry for the double post.well i got it to 506x8.5 4300 and i was able to lower some voltages.this is such an awesome proccessor.i mean its almost like im still OCing my E8500.its actually using less vcore to do 4300 than my e8500 EO needed for 4300.this board with the 9650 is just amazing.http://i44.tinypic.com/op31xu.jpg
Nice Clockes Zuckerman, you may be stable, but are you running that 24/7 ? cause with that much nb voltage you board aint going to last very long, i would never run over 1.6 nb 24/7,and your cpu seems on the rather toasty side to, but nice clocks anyway.
Crap, my q9650 won't pass the Intel Burn-in test even at stock settings... but prime95 is fine. I think the vdrop on my board is killing it.
this is where ill stop for now.im pretty happy with the performance im getting with this clock.gotta say these 9650's are beasts,i recommend that everyone should get one.http://i44.tinypic.com/167tbtw.jpghttp://i44.tinypic.com/2m2ffo0.jpg
Awesome Radaja. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by radaja
nice clocks there gents. I will be getting my ud3p in tomorrow :up:
Been runnnin 3.9 ghz on an msi neo2 fr P-35 mobo for a couple o'
weeks now; I cant wait to put this 9650 on a ud3p for some real action.
Its 2 hours prime stable now @1.264 (cpuz,,idle) with 1.3?? volts bios.
I never liked the vdroop on this msi board. I want crazy clockZ with a ud3p.
I like how cool this thing runs with an old BigTyphoon though. My q6600 would really heat up @3.6. I got good ram TeamXtreem, GMH and a low vid chip (1.1000) so with some help from you guys I should be clockin-fine.
I have never posted a SS before; so just in case I have good luck I wanna post some screenies. What size should i make the SS? Or just post it as is?
Im running a desktop res of 1650X1050, Im thinking that i should reduce it to ???? Thanks for any help guys.
finally got a good vid chip, hope it clocks well
your using the older version of coretemp which only reports the min VIDQuote:
Originally Posted by mreld3r
go to version 99.4 and see what it tells you there ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
Speaking of VID's what would be the range from lowest to highest(max VID) for the Q9650 and the odds of getting such VID. I might be getting a Q9650 soon and from what I have read 1.25 seems to be the highest and most common VID, should I be mad or feel unlucky if I get a 1.25 VID chip or is that just the norm and anything lower then 1.25 is just a freak blessing. Thanks..
I honestly think the whole VID thing is BS, in realtemp you can see there is a low VID and a high VID; 1 is for the low power state and one is for full speed. I may not have this right but I think all chips are 1.100 and 1.250.Quote:
Originally Posted by PortCitySlim
:rofl:YOU BET:rofl::up:Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
That version of coretemp reads accurate for me. :shrug:
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...apImageeee.jpg
wow... well there goes my theories :rofl::am:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss331
I have only owned two C2Quads in my life and both were Q6700's with VID of 1.3250(Highest I ever heard of) and both were crappy overclockers :(. I seen plenty of people with lower VID Q6600 and Q6700 chips get much better results on equal hardware and settings. I have read through this thread and seen screenshots of Coretemp showing VID's of 1.10, 1.15, 1.875, 1.225, and 1.25 for the Q9650, are these false readings?Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
refer to above post LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by PortCitySlim
Well since you were the author of this thread I though you might know the ~odds of getting a less then 1.25 VID Q9650, from best I can tell is the VID range for these chips is 1.10-1.25 with 1.25 appearing to be the most common by about a 2-1 advantage over anything lower then 1.25. Making the odds of getting a max VID Q9650 ~66%. From the clocks I have seen by people with lower then 1.25 VID's they are able to run 4.2ghz-4.4ghz on less then 1.36 vcore. Those with 1.25 VID's are having trouble getting at 4.2ghz+ with <1.36vcore. The reason I bring this up is that I have pretty decent air cooling (see sig) and would love to get 4.2ghz stable and cool under ~60C full load without exceeding 1.3625 vcore.Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
Understood :up: I think you are correct for low voltage clocking you definitely want to seek a low VID chip.Quote:
Originally Posted by PortCitySlim
Mine is a 1.25 and I have seen validation up to 4.5ghz so far, but I need a new bios on this board badly... the ram dividers dont work right and I can reach 485 boot stable and the divider craps out on me :( its definitely a ram issue because It freezes post on the memory check :\
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
Sucks about your RAM, wish I could help but all I know is ASUS P5Q-D and my DDR2(which I love both). I am just contemplating doing a return if my first Q9650(should be arriving tomorrow) is max VID. I have done this before on Q6700's but the ethics gods bit me and I got another max VID chip in return:rofl:. I am sick of struggling with poor overclocking chips and would love for once to get a decent clocking chip that runs cool on lower volts. 4.2ghz is my goal on air and if I get something better then I will be very happy.
luckily I have just picked up some tweaking tips over at another board and I may see ddr3-2000 tonight :DQuote:
Originally Posted by PortCitySlim
Low Vid means less voltage for lower OC's = Less resistance to heat (Higher temps).
High Vid means more voltage for lower OC's = More resistence to heat (runs cooler).
Low Vid and High Vid all come together when they are near the OC limit = Same OC results when comes down to top end clocks (4500-5000Mhz).
So your choice is between a low OC with less volts or a high OC with lower temps :up:
Great results Zucker I hope you understand when I ask these results, when people come here and spread false hope for some board users it's really a pain and a lot of frustration for other forum members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zucker2k
I think you are ready to move on to 9 multi now :up:
Not hot at all considering the volts his using.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celcius
It will last NB volts for X48 platform is nothing. They can sustain 2.0vnb 24/7 (if that did more good then bad actually).Quote:
Originally Posted by neo mike
He is using a lot of volts for everything because he is in the old x48 platform that plays nasty with Quad's power.
What did your temps max out at on your 4.4 air run?
With the P45 platform and the excellent UD3P my temps with a $29 air cooler never reached 75oC on a hot day (prime95 11hrs blend). But I was using very low volts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss331
port city slim my vid is 1.25. heres my latest.couldnt stop.but i will stop for now.for real.http://i42.tinypic.com/bjbih2.jpg
WOW! Are those temps (45C) real for full load at 1.37vcore(CPUZ) on air? From looking at your screenshot it appears that you are running 8.5x510-1.37vcore after 4h20min Prime95 small fft's and your temp reading is 45C under load. I would consider this awesome for air cooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by radaja
port, check post #937 :up:
Thanks Hoss, we have very close to the same hardware, I really hope I get a 9650 as good as yours so we can share tips. I am running bios 1702 as well, just have not updated my sig. I got to wait tell I get my new chip and hard drive installed this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss331
Hey ;)
My one is now stable @ 4x4650MHz ;), ... thats the max. so far under water.
http://www.partypicssaarland.de/vers...GTX280/88s.jpg
:shrug:
:shocked: Amazing...voltage is reasonable as well. I was just about to buy a P45 Extreme you made it alot easierQuote:
Originally Posted by OliverM84
I think you have the WR for stable o/c....although I wonder how it would do under some IBT runs
Tired of tweaking, so I decided to do some fun runs....
9x506 fsb
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...212aea9833.jpg
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...b6551ab970.jpg
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...0e7a34c7b7.jpg
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...98be30ce4e.jpg
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...c3670d1c2d.jpg
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...93f8b89f0d.jpg
9x511 fsb
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...ec2b01d42b.jpg
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/...5fe9a80d5a.jpg
Cheers,
Richard.
Im actually switching to a UD3P, got one coming tuesday. My dlx seems to be tapping out early with this chip since no matter what settings or voltage I give it I cant get past 483 stably. I was able to get higher stable fsb with my 9550 but I guess the 9x multi is just to much for it. :shrug: Hopefully the UD3P wont disappoint cause this chip seems to have alot left in it. Either way if you need help with the dlx, ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by PortCitySlim
By the way what rev. is your chipset, A2, A3 ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss331
CPUZ states revision A2. I bought mine the first week they came out in June 08 I believe, is that a bad thing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverM84
Thx :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by kill_a_wat
OliverM84 and zucker2k,awesome clocks,thats just amazing what you guys are doing with these chips.
:clap: very good Oliver!Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverM84
What type of WC system you have there?
Post the template when you get the chance!
Good results Richard, thanks for sharing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zucker2k
Would you please post your BIOS settings?
I got one of these CPUs (just a few hours before ;)
First run:
Q9650@4.1 GHz
BlackOps X48
Kingston Hyperx 1800
EVGA 9800GX2 SC
High Power 1000W
Valid: 4109 MHz (4 GHz boot)
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=498525
PiFast: 4045 MHz/22.77 Sn.
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4962/4045pz4.jpg
2K6: 3.7 GHz/20.987
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8...k620987pg5.jpg
Aqua: 3.7 GHz/237.415
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2706/aqua3700lt5.jpg
is that voltage right? if so you are using WAY too much voltage
Not right, 1.4V-1.45V from BIOS :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
I'll be posting my settings shortly, but Snipe is right, that voltage is WAY high! Since you're using cpu-z 1.49, I want to believe the voltage is close to real; maybe your board is overvolting? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGanG
Blackops has a CPU-Z Voltage bug buddy, for example E8600 VCore (about 1.5V real) was 1.1V-1.2V at CPU-Z :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zucker2k
Thanks for caution, i will check it again...
Waiting for BIOS settings :rolleyes:
Even your bios voltage is way too much, should be around 1.2-1.3 at most for those speeds. Mine only needs 1.2 loaded for 4ghz.
Not really a bad thing, mines an A2. If you had an A3 I would be interested in seeing what your max FSB would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by PortCitySlim
It was actually a temp test too, now will try my min. VCore voltage, thanks...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss331
BIOS Default Settings, VCore :confused:
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2576/adszuv0.jpg
Do you have the latest bios for your board? My stock default goes to 1.008.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...06#post3622406Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGanG
Thanks, next run will be under dice...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zucker2k
BIOS VCore: 1.45V > CPU-Z: 1.76V :D (Air!!! So, it must be a bug)
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=498651
Better, but that vcore (1.45v) is still too high for this chip; seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGanG
Am I reading that right, your pci-e frequency is only 18mhz? :confused:
are there any rampage formula templates i might be able to bounce off of? i had my E8400 rockin out at 4050mhz solid as stone, but i cannot get this Q9650 to stabilize at 4050mhz whatsoever.
im on the latest bios, and no matter what vcore i throw at it the damn thing BSODS.
again just looking for templates right now.
zucker2k i decided to follow in your footsteps,so i installed 8 gigs of g.skill pc-8800's and was able to get this.http://i40.tinypic.com/33epzeq.jpg
Awesome feat, Radaja :clap: See if you can beat my 9x512FSB with 8GB Ram oc.
im not sure i can do that.im a bit scared of giving my new cpu too much volts.so maybe after ive had it for awhile,ill push it to it limits
could i trouble you for some in-depth BIOS screenies or settings? i cant get 450fsb stable worth a damn at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by EOD
Freq : 4467.8 MHz (496.42 * 9)
MB Model : DFi LP DK P45-T2RS PLUS
Valid :
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=499070
Now i have 2 choices; ocing with dice or fine tuning for a stable level. Both are exciting...
Awesome, you're getting there. :up: What vcore did you need for those clocks?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGanG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zucker2k
Freq : 4510.91 MHz (501.21 * 9)
MB Brand : DFI
MB Model : LP DK P45-T2RS PLUS
Valid : http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=499345
- CPU Clock Amplitude: 800mV~900mV
- CPU Clock0 Skew: 100~200
- CPU Clock1 Skew: 100
- DRAM Speed: 333/667 or 400/800
- Enhance Data transmitting: fast
- Enhance Addressing: fast
- T2 Dispatch: Disabled
- Ch1 DRAM Default Skew: 3
- Ch2 DRAM Default Skew: 3
- Rcomp Setting: 1
- CAS Latency Time (tCL): 5
- RAS# to CAS# Delay (tRCD): 5
- RAS# Precharge (tRP): 5
- Precharge Delay (tRAS): 15
- All Precharge to Act: AUTO
- REF to ACT Delay (tRFC): 64
- Performance LVL(Read delay): 8
- CPU VID Control: +350mV~+362mV
- DRAM Voltage Control: 2.432v
- SB Core/CPU PLL Voltage: 1.55v
- NB Core Voltage: 1.5450~1.5950v
- CPU VTT Voltage: 1.40~1.49V
- VCore Droop Control: enabled
- Clockgen Voltage Control: 3.45V
- CPU GTL0/2 REF Volt: 0.63X
- CPU GTL 1/3 REF Volt: 0.62X
- North Bridge GTL REF Volt: 0.61X
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1441/4503rt6.jpg
quick question,is there something i should do in terms of making use of all 4 cores in XP and vista?cause i keep seeing posts about activating the cores in the OS?something about only one core works by default and if you change some setting it will boot up faster cause it will use all 4 core on startup.any help i can get ill take.
run, msconfig, boot tab, advanced options, you can play with max cores and maxmem during bootup.Quote:
Originally Posted by radaja
zucker2k,thanks.so on the max memory should i use all(8123)that it shows?
Won't hurt anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by radaja
Special thanks to Jor31br and radaja. I recieved my ud3p monday @6:pm.
Using info that i got in this thread and the ud3p thread here is my 1 day overclock. We will see how stable it is, I just started prime a few minutes ago.
If these settings look familiar; I stole them from radaja. Easiest overclock.....
EVER...If anyone sees anything alarming let me know. I will try to reduce voltages,,,maybe, if i dont increase FSB first
thanks guys
http://i43.tinypic.com/1z3oy0p.jpg
mreld3r,very nice! and with such low vcore.makes me want to try and see if i can lower mine,be right back
well, that voltage WAS low...too low
Priming again @1.35 see if it can make it longer, im NOT going to run it for 8 hours tho. Im not interested in PRIME stable just 24/7 stable. Nothing I do on mycomputer stresses it as much as prime. As long as it dont overheat/crash during everyday use, im happy. Real world stable > prime stable for me.
Well done mreld!Quote:
Originally Posted by mreld3r
I told everybody here long time ago that UD3P + Q9650 = unbeatable combo in high OC, low volts, stability and price $$$ :up:
Just copy my template or radaja's knowing that MCH Ref and CPU Ref can change a bit according to mobo used and cpu you'll be fine till Intel come up with something better then i7 next year :up:
I know its not stable...but,,,
http://www.ripping.org/database.php?cpuid=851
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=499494
Not likely stable, but i'd be happy with 4 GHz...so yeah
VID is 1.15v
Temps at same vcore as previous Q9550 are drastically higher :(
Q9550 needed nearly 1.4v to do 4+ GHz.
Q9650 is doing over 4 GHz @ 1.3v :)
Oh, & i'm back to my P5Q-D...thank god.
UD3P was short-lived less than fun experiment that failed.
http://ense7en.com/pics/q9650/Q9650%...d%20stable.JPG
Very not bad at all :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by -n7-
Also what cooling are you using? And what happened to the UD3P?
Hey guys, got my Q9650 from Newegg on Monday batch #L834B631.
Edit: VID for this chips is 1.2500 using coretemp 0.99.4 and it appears I might have some stuck temp sensors. Right now I am still testing and sometimes they work at load and sometimes all they read is 32-34-34-35 at idle and full load. So far they have never read anything lower then 32-34-34-35 but I have at least got them to rise above that at full load under OCCT 2.0.1. Later today I will try 4.05ghz and post some screen shots. I am hoping this max VID chip ends up being a decent overclocker. My goal is 4.2ghz stable on air under 60-65C.
First test I ran was at stock speed 9x333 just to get a slight judge for it. CPU Vcore was at Auto with 1.20NB 1.26VTT(Higher then I needed) 1.52PLL. At full load CPUZ read 1.24vcore, 45C full load, which means it will probably be stable at ~1.19v for 3.0ghz. Tonight I will try for either 8x500 to see what my max FSB is or 9x450 to see what Vcore I need for 4.05ghz. I should know my tonight how well this thing will OC.
All my BIOS voltages are reduced as much as possible ;)
Validation: 4510.91 MHz (Max-Air) Gonna try dicing.
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=499345
Validation: 4259.71 MHz (2D/3D)
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=499985
2D TESTS: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=1#post3627857
ok, so the latest war against the x48 rages on, but making excellent progress. i wanted to ask you guys a few questions though, if anyone has any thoughts perhaps.
is there a specific GTL voltage that a specific proc is looking for in terms of stability? i mean like all around? or is it on a per (literal) processor type basis? I finally am able to boot into windows with stability at 450x9 (q9650) and went through 11 rounds of linpack without error. comparing the options that the UD3P has, i think the current BIOS of the Rampage Formula is slightly limited, and therefore could perhaps require a lot of vtt voltage to attain the correct GTL voltage.
anyway, so like i said, im running 1.20 actual under load. extrapolating my BIOS settings out, my CPU GTL should be around .78 (using the .65 GTL ref). i tried dropping to 1.3625v vcore in BIOS, but that was wholly unstable. should anything else be matched in light of that vcore change, even though i didnt touch the vtt nor cpu GTL ref value?
Am i making sense here at all? or is all this just the complete moronic misunderstanding? maybe i have one hot-damn insurgent of a Q9650 that requires some pretty damn lame volts to remain stable? how would you all go about this?
Just wanted to say this is an AMAZING CPU! I'm doing 4.25GHz 24/7 stable with sub-par watercooling and half-decent ram. If I had a better rad I bet this thing would be stable at 4.4 or 4.5GHz for sure.
I posted my BIOS settings in the Gigabyte UD3P thread here:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...postcount=1816
sean222,great job! yea these 9650's are simply amazing.ive been lusting after these cpu's for about3 months now and as soon as that price drop hit....BAM i pressed the continue with purchase button and now i am one happy camper.and being able to use it in my UD3P is just a great bonus.i mean it clocks just as easy and good as my dual core did.like you said AMAZING CPU.again great clocks
Thanks man, I'd love to push it further...but I can't justify spending a couple hundred to upgrade my watercooling just for ~200 more mhz. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by radaja
Hi buddyQuote:
Originally Posted by brinox
It is a pain having limited BIOS options as you are limited in trying specific VTT/GTL combos
I found using 63mV to 70mV (and sometimes 80mV on failing cores via Prime) has helped. Its good that you managed to pass IBT as it proved to be very difficult to pass (for me anyway) over 484x9 - Prime is not so bad. From my personal experience its pretty much trial and error although there is some theory in the GTL ref thread here in XS.
I am unclear on whether there is a specific relationship between GTL/VTT and vCore but when I fiddle with the BIOS i'll poke around to see if there is some kind of relationship - but from my experiences I'd have to side with the trial and error camp.
helloQuote:
Originally Posted by Zucker2k
what's your voltage for you ?
this morning i was able to do this.still testing for stability though.http://i43.tinypic.com/1zc2yhx.jpg
Highest I could go so far on water with 8GBs of RAM, NB Maxed.
here is where im at , need some more tweaks . got a question for you guys, should i go water or just stronger fans , right now i have a TRUE w/antec tricools in push pull at high.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n.../q96504250.jpg
some good fans might get you a few degrees for $30 tops, water will get you 10-15c lower at load for about $300
its all about which you can afford
would this be good enough : Swiftech H20-22- Apex Ultima Liquid Cooling KitQuote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
?
i have been told that that is a very good kit.thats what ill be getting for my first WCing setup.