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The funny thing is, of all the manufacturers Swiftech needs what we are discussing the least. They have all the tools to do their own testing. That is not to say that it should not be validated, perhaps they do that as well IDK. I'm sorry that this thread degenerated into something totally unrelated to the GTZ...
Nah, a good thread I think. Lot's of things discussed that should have been and having Gabe here with a manufacturer's viewpoint helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Besides, it buys his ass time to show that GTZ..:rofl:
As far as the workload on individuals goes, i'm sure there are more of us out there that would be more than willing (indeed, keen as mustard) to take some of the burden off the experts, if you could call it that :D.
The issue arises that small fries like myself don't have the experience, money or industry exposure to really get off the ground. The experts are experts for a reason...
FYI, The $40 a month I've averaged in donations has covered my webhosting which I appreciate very much:yepp: But any future donations should go to XS, I don't even want to think about what sort of bandwidth we eat up BSing here.
BTW, I am finally getting ready to start in on my CPU block testing again, but I have no idea if I'll get one of these to try. I did manage to find an Apogee GT (traded a fellow member some testing gear for it), so I will at least include that one...:up:
Back on topic to the GTZ...I'd really like to see some internals when that's ready for the public.
Watercool has making blocks with that exact system for years. They're due to release the Heatkiller 3.0 sometime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by RealRedRaider
Looking at their GPU coolers they don't care much about flow but mostly about raw performance (and amazing looks :)), so the 3.0 may be able to beat the Supreme.
But generally, most people don't have seperate CPU and GPU/motherboard loops, so it makes sense, that most coolers aren't near as restrictive as the Supreme.
Impingement is low restriction, since when? :shrug:
It's a low restriction design if you use giant-sized nozzles. If you use the 3.5mm nozzle, its hardly low restriction.Quote:
Originally Posted by RealRedRaider
Besides - EK Supreme is an impingement block, since it has an accelerator plate. It's just shaped differently, but it's purpose is still to accelerate water, hence achieving impingement.
That is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by RealRedRaider
Nehalem will also have 270mm˛ die, compared to 107mm˛ for Wolfdale. And that will be the performance benchmark in a few months time, so I would expect the Apogee GTZ to be designed with that in mind :p:
Am I the only one that's thinking (internal) pics or it's just vaporware?
RRR this isnt completely directed at youQuote:
Originally Posted by RealRedRaider
On average whats the difference between waterblocks? Starting at the bottom and all the way to the top performer how much of a gap is there and does the ability to cool your processor adequately still exist?
Even the lowest performing waterblocks are within 5c of the top performers right? Even the Classic apogee was within 1-2c of the Storm, which is small enough to be considered the margin of error. All of which dont fail to cool your processor worse than air cooling. And when has 1c been the difference between stable and not stable on water? Dare I say never?
The testing of your concrete is a bit difference because the difference between your worst batch and your best is huge I would imagine. It would not perform...period correct? My company does the same thing internally with the parts we manufacture.
My point is testing of certain things is a requirement of the manufacturer. If Gabe was manufacturing safety harnesses, vehicle air bag devices or any number of other things that require structural or functional integrity to perform then it would be his job to pay to have an outside source test his goods. For example take a look at goods that are, and are not FDA approved.
But testing of mundane things like tubing, waterblocks or fans is something that only people like us care about. I challenge anyone to ask their parents if they even care about the temperature of their computer, let alone how much cooler their computer could run. Were a niche, its our job to test these things, not Gabes. Just like every other niche out there, it exists because of a few diehard people who like to flaunt their e-peen. Not like thats a bad thing tho ;)
I'll go out on a limb and say that you'll need an EK Supreme re-design for the Nehalem.
Let's back up a moment. XS constitutes perhaps 10% of the weirdo super enthusiast market, which in turn constitutes 10% of the market for water blocks, and water cooling probably constitutes 1% of the entire computer market. A normal person with regular brain faculties wouldn't dream of bringing water anywhere close to a computer. Its still an insane concept.
What incentive does any manufacturer have to contribute to such an XS fund? XS is just one of many forums, and XS doesn't have a measurable impact on any particular manufacturer. Remember that there are many many forums overseas in every single geographic market.
Gabe's astute enough not to release pictures of his internals. I know I wouldn't if I were him. Why should XS be so GD special compared to other forums ?
Because he actually posts here, plus we already have a date. I think we can all wait 3 days.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
I would place a bet that its not impingement, and I would bet further that the Nehalem won't work so well with impingement blocks, and that the high flow low restriction blocks will return to favor.
Besides that, I've never seen an impingement block where the inlet is not in the center, and that GTZ's inlet and outlets are at the corners.
I'm intrigued, why would this be so? Is the Nehalem processor going to be that different from the current setup? I know the actual core itself is vastly different to the current generation (IMC, etc), but it'll still have one IC/core, soldered to the underside of an IHS no?Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
Just effin' huge die, methinks.
But yes, IanY, you're right. Most likely not impingement since the neither barb is centered.
Manufacturers can't obviously have a standardized way of testing actual performance on most products because there are to many variables, but they can test some basic properties of their products in a standardized way and publish that data. Some of them already do this on some of their products, but it needs to become more widespread and needs to have some sort of standards body like UL or ISO backing it and specifying exactly what those standards are. There's no reason at all why fans for instance can not have performance charts tracking CFM, RPM and DB, that are accurate, verifiable, and certified. If the industry would just take this one minor step it would go a long way towards putting everyone on even ground and simplifying testing of their products by eliminating the need to verify every last detail about their products.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmer411
The FDA is a bad example in this case, because that's a government applied requirement. UL is a better example, as that's an industry applied requirement. Quite simply, when shopping for certain parts, most people will not by something that's not UL certified because without that certification the only way to know if the product meets its specification is to actually test it. Because most people will be hesitant to buy without the certification, manufacturers will go out of their way to meet the certification requirements. Further, claiming a product as certified if it isn't, or producing a product that has been certified, but which doesn't meet the performance requirements has major consequences (lawsuit in the former, and losing your UL certification in the later) which keeps the manufacturers honest (in combination with spot checking by engineers and UL).
I see that there's disagreement :up:
We'll carry this on in private, dear sir, because I can already feel the intense heat of flames from the EK Supreme is Supreme crowd. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by twwen2
There are a lot of experts here in this forum. However, we all were born with the same pot to dump in. I'm no expert, but at least I recognize the pottie. Many of them don't. Yet there are even some who stare in the mirror and see bling.
Everythning on Nehalem is pure speculation. One thing is sure: all actual blocks will need new mounting plates. For all the rest, it's a hit and miss. If you're one of those crazy enough to take the wagon as soon as Nehalem is launched, than better wait before buying a new WB
The dies are big. That we know.
What makes you think that info is not disseminated in another language besides English ? :)Quote:
Everythning on Nehalem is pure speculation.
XS is fond of viewing itself as the boundaries of planet earth.
The X58 mobos are ready for production.