Umm yet another PSU thread. Interesting However..

Ok, so im like still on the fence between the OCZ 600 monster and the PCP&C 510 SLI. So i ask for prices on some custom options i would like to have, including raising the amps. Its only money, no? Look at this reply i get...

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Sorry, but we can’t disable the OVP in the power supply nor up the +12 Volt rating. Not only would this void your warranty (disabling OVP) but it would also void the agency certifications. Note that the OCZ is not SLI certified. It will probably be fine if your are using dual 6600GT’s but it will not work with the 6800 series video cards. The following link to Nvidia notes the only, to date, SLI certified power supplies:



http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_sl...rsupplies.html



Most all other P/S manufacturers have submitted power supplies to Nvidia for certification but have failed to pass.

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What do you make of this?

I would say without a doubt they make one of the highest quality psu's but you might need some ear plugs with them. I would consider the 850w if they would put a pot on the fan or something those fans are annoying as hell.

Email them and ask if they are fully atx12v 2.0 compliant. It really doesn't matter because the one 12v rail has enough amps for 2 but you might be suprised at the response.

I just replaced my PCP@C 475w turbo cool with the $89 fortron in my sig. Not only are the voltages better on the Fortron but it is almost silent compared to the PCP@C. I don't think I'll have any trouble running a 6800 ultra with this psu but it will be two weeks before I can tell you. I also don't plan on going sli this round.

older OCZ 600w PSU's didnt have two 6 pin connectors, that might be why

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Originally Posted by Playful_Buffalo

older OCZ 600w PSU's didnt have two 6 pin connectors, that might be why

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newer models have 2 pci-e connectors for SLI?

is that why it was impossible to get an ocz600 for a good 2 weeks?

they should both work fine...altho I would get the OCZ one

jjcom

For two 6800s the OCZ should hang ok...2Ultras now..those alone are sucking way over 100 watts by themselves..add in a nicely overclocked processor and...I don't know, maybe and maybe not. Alot would depend on all your periphs then. This might help wattage calculator/guesstimator

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Originally Posted by Evil_Spork

do the newer ocz600 models have 2 pci-e connectors for SLI?

is that why it was impossible to get an ocz600 for a good 2 weeks?

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anyone?

I do know a lot of people around the forums are recommending them and they aren't too expensive for an ATX 2.0 PSU but just using that link I put up using 2 ultras a pair of sata and ata hdds and 2 optical drives with 4 total case fans was like 627 watts. Don't forget whatever you come out with should only be 60-70% of the PSUs max so that puts it squarely on the loud as h#ll pcp&c.

I would get the PCP&C over any psu, they have a great reputation and are very serious
But i don't know OCZ reputation in the psu market

So i should go for the 510 watter is what your saying then? Did you guys buy direct and what mods did you have done to it?

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Originally Posted by The Mofo

So i should go for the 510 watter is what your saying then? Did you guys buy direct and what mods did you have done to it?

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That's what i think, a 510W from PCP&C would beat any 600 or even 700W from any other company (again i don't know OCZ, i just know PCP&C). Their rating slightly different than others so actually you truly get the wattage written on the psu

Ok, sounds like a plan. They are about 30 mins from my work, so i guess ill go and stop by.

I think PCP has one of the best reps in the overclocking area, but OCZ is very high quality.

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Originally Posted by antipop

That's what i think, a 510W from PCP&C would beat any 600 or even 700W from any other company (again i don't know OCZ, i just know PCP&C). Their rating slightly different than others so actually you truly get the wattage written on the psu

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A very strong point in pcp&cs favor is that their wattages are rated at ..50C? I believe vs most rating at 20C. The hotter a PSU gets the less efficient and do you know anyone whose PSU is running 20C? I don't. Some other companies are starting to do this also as I understand but I wont name any cuz I can't be 100% sure but that does but the pcp&c aroung the 600 mark IMHO.

I run my PSUs at around 25C on a hot day, they are easily 15C on better days. Do you really let your PSU get to 50C?

I have used 2 different 510 DLXs and have had terrible experiances with both of them, the OVP comes in too soon, but the serious issue is that they fluxuate the voltages to an insane degree unless you add a cap before you check the voltages. The ATX spec says that is what you need to do, so PCPNP it kinda correct, except that I tested about 10 different other PSU brands, and even the lower end PCPNP units and none of them had any fluxuation at all without any extra cap on the line, just the 510 moved around without that cap. So, sure they fine when the official specs are taken into account, and their PSU can probably push out just as many amps as the Zippy 6701 and the OCZ 600w, but would you want a PSU that could just handle the official voltage regultion spec, or would you want something that goes beyond it?


Most of the information people mention about the quality of the PCPNP comes right off their website, not from an objective tester. (An official review site isn't that reliable either, because PCPNP is known to send better than retail units to reviewers)

Don't doubt a 600W Powerstream could do 2 Ultras and a good CPU ;) I remember OPB running 2 Ultras SLI @ 590/1300 with FX-55 @ > 3 GHz for an '05 record NP on a 520W Powerstream. How about that?

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Originally Posted by craig588

I run my PSUs at around 25C on a hot day, they are easily 15C on better days. Do you really let your PSU get to 50C?

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I doubt your PSUs are 15C (59F) as the average room temp is around 20-23C :)
Unless you're doing some weird cooling stuff with them, of course.

well id say if PCP&C wont give you the good pot mods, then buy a ocz600w as they have Great Service.

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Originally Posted by snq

I doubt your PSUs are 15C (59F) as the average room temp is around 20-23C :)
Unless you're doing some weird cooling stuff with them, of course.

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I try to keep my room at around 5C, I have a window open alot in the winter and 2 A/Cs running in the summer. Heat is the most uncomfortable thing for me. I get uncomfortable from cold at around 2C. 20C starts getting really hot for me.

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Originally Posted by craig588

I try to keep my room at around 5C, I have a window open alot in the winter and 2 A/Cs running in the summer. Heat is the most uncomfortable thing for me. I get uncomfortable from cold at around 2C. 20C starts getting really hot for me.

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well even if your room is 5c under load that psu is probly around 25c~

What happened to modding PSUs? Surely I'm not the only one who upgrades their PSUs components?
http://img205.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img2...scf16650wx.jpg

I havn't looked at my benching rig in quite a while, I really need to take a air compressor to its PSU again, it has been a few weeks since the last cleaning.

Damn it guys, youre making it very hard. The zippy is out since its going to be used on the DFI.

Craig, you mention the fluctation in the PCP&C.. I have to have a stable PSU.

You guys are not making this easy. lol.

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Originally Posted by The Mofo

Damn it guys, youre making it very hard. The zippy is out since its going to be used on the DFI.

Craig, you mention the fluctation in the PCP&C.. I have to have a stable PSU.

You guys are not making this easy. lol.

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if i were you, id just buy the pcz 600w. the ocz warranty is nearly flawless.

its also alot cheaper. if you dont like it, it still has great resell rates, and you can get something else.

-- Craig --

I take it from your reference to adding a cap and the ATX spec that you were checking the voltages without the supply hooked up to a m/b?

Regarding the OVP, at what point did it kick in for the 510 and did you try adjusting the OC pots?

I've measured the PCP&C rails and they do not fluctuate!!!!!!!!!!!! I've had 5 total and the ripple voltages all measure better than some multithousand dollar SMPS's I've used. Power supply ripple is constant with design. It cannot be better in one of the same design than another of the same design. Ripple is inherent to design so if PCP&C gives reviewers better ripple voltage units, they would be having to send them a different design. I've owned just about all revisions of the 510 and they are all the same design and all have the same exact measurements. I have a $13,000 Tektronix DPO/DSO 7000 series scope which takes 20 giga samples per second and I know how to use it. If there is anything on the voltage rail, I will be able to see it.

I really dont know what craig588 is talking about when he says he has to put a cap before he measures.... It sounds more like he doesnt know how to properly use a scope. If your looking at the ripple voltage with the power supply connected to the computer, you'll get tons of induced noise from the computer and a large 60, 72, 75, or 85 hz ripple due to the refresh of your video card which is inducing noise on your voltage rails at the refresh rate of your monitor. If your measuring ripple when benching, your computer will be dumping so much noise on the lines it is laughable to even think it comes from the supply. The reason PCP&C does not use a 2nd fan is because they know that a 2nd fan on the bottom of the power supply will let all the EMI and RFI that is produced by every SMPS out of the unit directly aiming at the CPU, motherboard, hard drives, video card, etc. EMI and RFI is horrible for low voltage, high frequency digital circuits.... Like a computer!!!

What you see on the scope can be totally off if you dont know the proper place to put your ground lead. If your scope is not isolated from the mains ground, you'll get all the mains ground noise on your scope too and this will also give bad inaccurate graphs. If you dont isolate your ground and you touch the ground to something that isnt ground you'll blow the scope's ground path which will also give bad results. If your scope is crappy and the triggering is bad you'll get bad looking results. If your scope is out of calibration, you'll get inaccurate results. It's pretty frickin shady to publish inaccurate findings based on poor measurements and poor variable control situations. If someone did this to my company, I would seak legal action against them.

The PCP&C 510 has two 12 volt rails inside both rated at 17 amps the 850 has four 17 amp 12 volt rails. I think it says a lot about PCP&C if they are the ONLY power supplies rated to take two 6800's. OCZ pretty much said that they dont really trust their supply to do this job, and its not because they dont have two PCI-E connectors. They can easily put two 6 pin connectors on your modded supply which will not effect certification and compliance. They are buying these supplies from an OEM overseas, I doubt they know the design well enough to be able to modifiy the supply as well as PCP&C does. Although PCP&C is most likely not the manufacturer, they obviously did the design part of the supply (Or has a major part in it) since they know exactly what needs to be done to do any mod you want beyond switching a few cables.

OCZ sells a decent supply, but they pretty much said that the PCP&C is the power supply that you want. NVidia is saying that the ONLY Power supply that you want is PCP&C. OCZ said that many have tried only one has passed and it aint their 600 watt unit.

The PCP&C is designed like an industrial critical systems power supply. It's rated at 50C ambient temp like industrial power supplies are. Most of us dont live in igloos, so we keep our houses at a sweltering 20C. Inside of a PC case is usually about 30C to 40C (That is if you are not in an Igloo). The power supply Featured in PCP&C's ad comparing the 510 to the "So Called 550" is the Enermax 550. This is regarded as a pretty good power supply, but look at it's derating curve. Look at the power output when ambient is 40C not really what you paid for huh? I used this power supply and would experiance random resets when benching. The PCP&C 510 let me run my computer 6Mhz faster and 110% more stable when I only had 2.4C. I dont believe that enermax could power my current rig.

People say the PCP&C is loud, but I cant hear it over my video card which is the loudest thing in my system. My frickin amplifier's fan is louder than the PCP&C and it is almost inaudible.

The new fan that the PCP&C uses is quieter and puts out more air when hot. It is a 3 blade fan and runs very very quiet when the load is low. I can assure you that the cooling of the 6800's will drown out any and all noise made by the 510.

I still can't believe people think OCZ's 600 is in the same league as the PCP&C 510. the 600 is a good power supply, but it should be crystal clear by now that the 510 is better. NVidia clearly says it and OCZ indirectly said it.

I'm in no way shape or form affiliated with PCP&C, but My job relies on the best of the best, I've gone through many power supplies that the manufacturer claimed would work on my 3 ultra high-end workstation/bed-of-nails test rigs and they have all failed within a month. I've only had one PCP&C 510 go semi bad after 1 year in service, and that was caused by a recurring short circuit in the test bed which caused an output coil to burn a little. The unit still worked perfect, it just had a slight burning smell to it. They cross-shipped me a supply several days later.

In my PCP&C that I use in my overclocking rig, I have modified it for massive current and it has never hiccup'd once and to tell you the truth, instock form, the 510 runs my system flawless and is more than enough for my system.

PCP&C is willing to do modifications that go above and beyond what other marketing companies are willing to do. That in itself should show you the knowledge of their staff.

I really can not see how people can think that the OCZ 600 is comparable to the PCP&C. How many 510 owners have you heard about getting one DOA? When you ask PCP&C to do a mod, they say ok it will cost this much and will be ready in this amount of time with absolutely no BS. With other companies... well just read the very first post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by EMC2

-- Craig --

I take it from your reference to adding a cap and the ATX spec that you were checking the voltages without the supply hooked up to a m/b?

Regarding the OVP, at what point did it kick in for the 510 and did you try adjusting the OC pots?

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It was hooked to a mobo, they all were. Almost all of them were tested on a p4c800e-d with a 3GHz cpu priming at stock speeds and volts. (The 350 watt PSUs I tested couldn't handle more than that, the 180 watt needed to be run on a PIII system) I never knew you needed to use a cap before you measured the voltage so I was just measuring off of the mobo header.

I sold the PCPNP a long time ago, but I belive the OVP came in at 3.5V on the 3.3 rail. I didn't push other rails back then, so I didn't test their limits.

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I really dont know what craig588 is talking about when he says he has to put a cap before he measures....

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I belive it was you that said I was supposed to do it according to the ATX specs. I had never heard of doing such a thing before though.

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The PCP&C 510 has two 12 volt rails inside both rated at 17 amps

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Both of mine contained only a single rail rated for 38 amps.

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I've owned just about all revisions of the 510 and they are all the same design and all have the same exact measurements.

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Conveniently not the ones I tested.

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What you see on the scope can be totally off if you dont know the proper place to put your ground lead

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I have a grounding rod right outside of my room because the normal ground in my house is so crappy. The only circut that grounding rod is connected to is my room

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If your looking at the ripple voltage with the power supply connected to the computer, you'll get tons of induced noise from the computer and a large 60, 72, 75, or 85 hz ripple due to the refresh of your video card which is inducing noise on your voltage rails at the refresh rate of your monitor. If your measuring ripple when benching, your computer will be dumping so much noise on the lines it is laughable to even think it comes from the supply.

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So why didn't any other PSU display these symptoms to anywere near the degree of the PCPNP?

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It's pretty frickin shady to publish inaccurate findings based on poor measurements and poor variable control situations.

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Publish?


If you show my why my results are wrong I will stop complaining about PCPNPs 510 unit. (I know more/am smarter than you is not enough of a reason for me) If you show me how I can get any of my other PSUs to show fluxuations like the PCPNP showed, or provide an "approved" set of testing instructions where I can find I made an ommision.

I would prefer the former because I want to know what I might have done wrong, not just the right way if I am in fact using the scope incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by craig588

I belive it was you that said I was supposed to do it according to the ATX specs. I had never heard of doing such a thing before though.



Both of mine contained only a single rail rated for 38 amps.


Conveniently not the ones I tested.


I have a grounding rod right outside of my room because the normal ground in my house is so crappy. The only circut that grounding rod is connected to is my room


So why didn't any other PSU display these symptoms to anywere near the degree of the PCPNP?


Publish?


If you show my why my results are wrong I will stop complaining about PCPNPs 510 unit. (I know more/am smarter than you is not enough of a reason for me) If you show me how I can get any of my other PSUs to show fluxuations like the PCPNP showed, or provide an "approved" set of testing instructions where I can find I made an ommision.

I would prefer the former because I want to know what I might have done wrong, not just the right way if I am in fact using the scope incorrectly.

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Sorry, I re-read my post and I didnt mean to sound like such an aXX. I apologize man.

I did not say that the ATX standard calls for a cap before the scope?!?! That just plain does not make sense. If I did say it, I was tripping on the liquid crystals from an LCD panel. I do remember saying something to the effect of that when you put your scope on the "AC" coupling setting, there is an internal high quality capacitor (Inside the scope) wired in series with the scope probe which is used to block the DC component so you can measure and amplify just the AC component of whatever it is your measuring. If your trying to meausure ripple voltage you need to be using the AC coupling setting of the scope. It has nothing to do with the ATX standard.

How did you determine that your PCP&C 510 only had one 38 amp 12 volt rail?? The design is clearly a dual 12 volt rail desin indicated by the two dual inductor coils used on 12volt lines in 99.99% of computer power supplies. These are located behind the fan, you can see one easily, the other is right behind it, kinda hidden from view. I bet if you measure all of the 12 volt lines, you'll see ones that measure .1 or .2 volts higher than the other 12 volt lines. Depending on what rail your measuring and the load on that particular rail, the apparent measured ripple/noise will not be accurate.

I wont go into the proper use of a scope because it takes judgement and knowledge that I can't convey to anyone no matter how smart without being right there to show them how to do it correctly. Even I'm guilty of sometimes not taking into account PCB layout and design and current paths when using a scope. Getting an accurate picture on a scope is much more than sticking the ground on anything remotely grounded and probing away. I have designed circuits where moving the ground point 1 cm on the ground trace made the difference of measuring 1.2Vp-p ripple or 12mVp-p ripple.

PCP&C uses a much tighter regulation than any other PC power supply which means that it's transient response is much higher which means it's regulation circuitry is constantly adjusting the PWM IC to adjust the voltage. This does translate into a more visible ripple on a scope, but this is the trade off you pay for ultra tight regulation. It is not possible to get ultra tight regulation AND totally pretty picture perfect looking voltage on a scope. Just because things on a scope dont look like how we want them to, doesnt mean the circuit it is supplying will give a flying fk about it. When I measured the ripple and regulation on my PCP&C power supplies, they all measured WELL within tolerance. Less than 0.75% variation. Your computer cares more about tight regulation and high transient response than ripple voltage, but even the ripple I measured was below tolerance levels.

I dont know the specific details on how you did your test, where you took measurements, etc so I cant tell you specific things that were bad. Did you take into account the dual voltage rails on most supplies? what rail did you measure? If the device causing all the ripple is on the line your measuring, you'll see it on a scope plain as day, but if you measure the other rail that has minimal load from less noisy devices, you'll get great looking results (Although it will not be an accurate picture of the power supply). The only load that does not induce noise into the circuit is a resistive load. This is how your supposed to measure power output of any power outputting device. If you're using a load that induces noise, your measuring the noise of your load, not the power supply.

I've done many tests on these types of things. I've tested multithousand dollar power supplies used MRI scanners that must have ridiculous power output and low noise. An MRI is essentially a massive high resolution amplifer driving a huge voice coil. A low noise power supply is a must. The PCP&C has better ripple performance than these units and so do 100% of the computer power supplies I've measured so ripple voltage is not an issue here. The thing that makes PCP&C sooo good is the reliability, NO BS ratings, rock solid regulation, Solid design. This is what makes a power supply good. The 510 delivers 510 watts at 50C ambient. I would like to see the OCZ put out 600 watts into a resistive load for more than an hour in 40C ambient. I doubt it would last.

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How did you determine that your PCP&C 510 only had one 38 amp 12 volt rail?? The design is clearly a dual 12 volt rail desin indicated by the two dual inductor coils used on 12volt lines in 99.99% of computer power supplies. These are located behind the fan, you can see one easily, the other is right behind it, kinda hidden from view.

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I was just going by the ratings provided in the documentation with the PSU. I just thought of something though, is there any PCPNP PSU counterfitting going on?

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The only load that does not induce noise into the circuit is a resistive load. This is how your supposed to measure power output of any power outputting device. If you're using a load that induces noise, your measuring the noise of your load, not the power supply.

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Unfortunately I have already sold all of my PSUs I used to do my tests, but I really wish I knew that before hand. I figured I would use a computer because people would want to know real world results rather than results based on something I built. (I thought about copying the unit that Toms Hardware uses to test PSUs, but decided against it because of the "non real world" testing environment it created.) If I ever test PSUs again I will build a unit like that.

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Did you take into account the dual voltage rails on most supplies? what rail did you measure?

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I measured the 12V, 5V and 3.3V rails from the ATX header. I didn't bother with the drive rails because we really don't need clean voltage going into the HDs because we arn't OCing them.

the sales rep is telling you BS to get you to guy the PCP&C

tons of people on this forum have ran OCZ600s with SLI 6800s, so it will work
if you talk to someone like Mdzcpa hell tell you that he got better clocks with his PCP 510 ... so its a tossup

id go with OCZ they have good warranty, and nice reps