GTX560 > GTX460, hidden truth perhaps.

I've just been reading up on the GTX560 and something dawned upon me. Wether its true or not.. time and maybe a bit of testing will discover that. If I'm right in my thinking though you might just find this interesting;

GTX560 Stats (rumored):

384 CUDA Cores, 8 PolyMorph engines
1GB GDDR5
820-875MHz stock GPU clock
4GHz memory
GPU core name: GF114

GTX460 stats:

336 CUDA Cores, 7 PolyMorph engines
1GB GDDR5
675MHz stock GPU, easily OCs to 850MHz on stock volts
3.6GHz memory
GPU core name: GF104

You are probably wondering where I'm going with all this, and heres where; Some of us will probably remember that the GTX460 physically has 8 PolyMorph engines, but only 7 are enabled, or as I prefer to look at it, the 8th PolyMorph engine is simply masked in BIOS code (yes this is totally possible). Now boys and girls imagine that 8th PolyMorph engine is "turned on" on the GTX460. What does that give us? 384 CUDA cores and 8 Polymorph engines. So to save on further technical details look at what we have here; The GTX560 could, in fact, be a rebadged GTX460 with that extra PolyMorph engine enabled. This theoretically means that if the 8th PolyMorph engine is simply masked in the BIOS code of a GTX460, theres nothing to say you couldn't (again in theory) put a GTX560 BIOS on your GTX460 and enable that other PolyMorph engine.

Discuss.

Congratulations Sherlock, you discovered what almost everyone one has assumed the GTX560 will be since it was announced....... GF114 = rebadged GF104 :rolleyes:

:lastweek:

EDIT: also its highly unlikely that all GTX460s are carrying fully functional 384 core GPUs. Nvidia most likely used the GTX460 to sell off its lot of GF104 GPUs that didn't make the cut with all 384 cores. Nvidia probably had similar issues with this GPU that they did with GF100 in getting good yields and is probably the reason we only saw the GTX460 with 336 cores. This "revised" GF114 is most likely a fixed version of GF104. Much like GF110 is what GF100 should have been at launch with all 512 cores active. And as we all know the GTX480 is carrying 512 cores in its GPU and can easily overclock to default GTX580 speeds but you cannot just flash a GTX580 bios to it and magically have all cores active.

double post

Actually, I bought it up as people talked about it with much more detail when the GTX460 came out, and more importantly, I wasn't talking about this from the obvious standpoint, but rather the technical one and how it would be done. Hence comments about BIOS masking, etc.

Man I had thought something like yours, but I did not search further.

It'll be something I'll likely experiment with later down the line when the GTX560 gets released, but atm I firmly have my eye set on a X6 1075T :D

It's unlikly the 460's can unlock to the full 384sp's.

I got curious about unlocking so I bought an evga gtx460se 1gb, the se only has 288sp's, everything else is exactly the same as the sandard evga gtx460 1gb. So of course i figured i'll just flash the gtx460 standard(336sp's) bios and unlock it, but nope it did not unlock the sp's. The bios does work perfectly fine, however it will not unlock to the 336sp's.

Also even with the standard bios flashed, everything still see's the card as the se model, so there is some identifier on the board/chip that overides the bios.

460SE cards are a special case, they are clearly borked 460 cores, or at the very least have been lazer cut. That scenario is less likely with a actual GTX460. You can also override various things with nvflash, I can't remember all the switches but one important step is to actually erase the EEPROM with --eraseeeprom switch before flashing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ket

460SE cards are a special case, they are clearly borked 460 cores, or at the very least have been lazer cut. That scenario is less likely with a actual GTX460. You can also override various things with nvflash, I can't remember all the switches but one important step is to actually erase the EEPROM with --eraseeeprom switch before flashing.

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The GTX460 in it's current state is clearly a "borked" GF104 core. What even remotely makes you think that when the GTX560 launches that you'll magically be able to unlock your GTX460 to a GTX560? Same way you can't unlock a GTX480 to a GTX580, you won't be able to unlock a GTX460 to a GTX560. They use different core revisions for their respective cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ket

Actually, I bought it up as people talked about it with much more detail when the GTX460 came out, and more importantly, I wasn't talking about this from the obvious standpoint, but rather the technical one and how it would be done. Hence comments about BIOS masking, etc.

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You keep creating threads over and over, theres actually a 560 thread in the news section, has everything you mentioned;)

Gtx560 > gtx470 ?

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Originally Posted by vern

Gtx560 > gtx470 ?

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All speculation atm, but if it overclocks as good as the 460, we might be in for a winner!

1. Yes I create threads, because shockingly its a forum. If I have a idea others might enjoy, I post it. Isn't that a new fangled concept for a forum? :rolleyes:
2. Theres no "magical" nature about a GTX460 possibly unlocking. Its actually rather simple. The GF104 can be looked at as a first attempt at GF114, which by no means suggests the 8th PolyMorph engine will unlock, but it suggests it may well be possible. 6950>6970, if you will.
3. I'm organised. If theres something specific to talk about, I like a thread of that specific subject not have it all muddled into a thread talking about something else.
4. 90% guarantee GTX560 won't OC that well. If it is just a refined GF104, you'll get the extra PolyMorph engine and maybe get the core to hit 900-950, but that'll probably be your lot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny87au

All speculation atm, but if it overclocks as good as the 460, we might be in for a winner!

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Use 2 6-Pin
I expect 20% performance increase from GTX 560 compared to GTX 460 .
Likeness GTX470

I think you should expect a 15% boost over GTX460, 20% with OC. Certainly looks like you won't have much core clocking room at least. Anyway, thats leaving the subject slightly. Be interesting when GTX560 is available, I'm all for picking hardware and BIOS code apart to see what makes it tick :D If there is just a BIOS mask with GTX460s for that 8th PolyMorph engine, I'll probably find it.

All the conjecture is possible. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ket

1. Yes I create threads, because shockingly its a forum. If I have a idea others might enjoy, I post it. Isn't that a new fangled concept for a forum? :rolleyes:
2. Theres no "magical" nature about a GTX460 possibly unlocking. Its actually rather simple. The GF104 can be looked at as a first attempt at GF114, which by no means suggests the 8th PolyMorph engine will unlock, but it suggests it may well be possible. 6950>6970, if you will.
3. I'm organised. If theres something specific to talk about, I like a thread of that specific subject not have it all muddled into a thread talking about something else.
4. 90% guarantee GTX560 won't OC that well. If it is just a refined GF104, you'll get the extra PolyMorph engine and maybe get the core to hit 900-950, but that'll probably be your lot.

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You fail to understand that the GPU in the HD6950 and HD6970 are both the same revision. And essentially the same GPU. This is not the case with the GTX460 and GTX560. The GTX460 uses the GF104 while the GTX560 uses the GF114. Nvidia probably made some changes and fixes to it like they did with the GTX580 and it's GF110 core.

This is not as simple as thinking of it like what's happening with HD6950's. That a totally different situation. The GPUs are both the same revision and both created on the same wafer.

If the GTX460 was only locked by bios masking, we would have seen someone unlock it by now. There are many tools that can circumvent bios locks and many a persistent modder that has tried. It's not possible because it's more than a bios mask, it's a hardware limitation in that the 8th polymorph engine was probably fused off at the factory.

Well, the GF100-->GF110 revision mostly removed HPC functionality and added FP16 full speed blending, either of which don't apply to the GF104, so....

i'll keep my hopes up for this

lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ket

460SE cards are a special case, they are clearly borked 460 cores, or at the very least have been lazer cut. That scenario is less likely with a actual GTX460. You can also override various things with nvflash, I can't remember all the switches but one important step is to actually erase the EEPROM with --eraseeeprom switch before flashing.

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The logic applies across the board dude, all gtx460 as of yet have borked cores whether it's 1 or 2 cluster units disabled, I said it before I think they are stockpiling all the good gf104 cores for a launch of a new card and that card looks to be the gtx560 (of course they will stamp gf114 on the core first).

Also I did everything I could with nvflash, even the --eraseeeprom switch, wouldn't budge.

Even so, theres still the possibility some GTX460s might be able to be turned into 560s. Kinda embarressing that some people are very short sighted. You don't dismiss a possibility until the avenu has been explored.

I don't doubt that it will be explored. I plan to, and as soon as the 560's come out, and I can get the bios in my hands I will flash a 460 with it, we'll see what comes of it then :up:

Also Im a total non-believer in the whole laser cut BS. There is someway they are overriding the Device ID that is stored in the bios, I am certain this is how the driver knows a 460 from a 460se.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ket

Even so, theres still the possibility some GTX460s might be able to be turned into 560s. Kinda embarressing that some people are very short sighted. You don't dismiss a possibility until the avenu has been explored.

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Both AMD and nVidia are releasing some kind of evolutionary (but not revolutionary, with shrink) chips based on the same good old 40nm-node.

GTX560 performs better that GTX460, what else do you expect? it is some kind of improvement, just like all other GPUs (from both camps) in this round.

Last I checked, nVidia was physically disabling the core, rather than a simple software (bios) disable. This is pretty much common practice for GPUs, the 6950 is the exception, not the rule.

When have any of you modded BIOS for other people on here? Lay off Ket he's one of our actually productive members.

Hey Ket are you able to mod BIOS to enable the 8th PolyMorph engine?