Tired of researching, 3ware 9750 or lsi 9261 and intel x-25mg2 or vertex turbo?

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03-10-2010, 10:21 AM
bigj91

Tired of researching, 3ware 9750 or lsi 9261 and intel x-25mg2 or vertex turbo?

First foremost, Thanks to ashraf for the quick approval! My first post, please be kind, Been lurking around here, Computurd, Tiltevros, SteveRo, great posts about lsi raid controller. Computurd great discussion on anandtech regarding intel x-25m and vertex turbo!

Here goes:
I am building/buying a server for mission critical work, 365/24hrx7 running(physicians office). I do not want to go the route of sas 15krpm hardrives. OS will be Windows server 2008 x64 enterprise or Windows Server 2003 R2 Enterprise x64. About 5-10 users will be logging on to the server from their workstations through gigabit Ethernet. The server will be running a c-tree database or microsoft sql database.

I will be buying a base Dell Poweredge T410,chassis with 6 hotplug capability, Xeon 5560, 12GB of ram udimm(should i do RDIMM for extra safety?), 575 redudant powersupply, 4 PCIe x 8 (x4 routing), 1 PCIe x 16 (x8 routing) and Perc 6/i(couldn't remove it), no hardrives.

Redundancy/reliability is most important as server will be kept running 24x7 for at least 5 years, please critique,

1x- crucial c300 128GB(SATA 6Gbps)(CTFDDAC128MAG-1G1)-as Main OS drive, i think it has hardware/native trim and garbage collection/self wear-leveling? Leaning towards buying another c300 128GB and running it in a raid 1?

1x 3Ware-9750-8i(LSI00214) or LSI 9261-8i(LSI00212)- I am confused about the lsi 9261, as this product documentation(small pdf file) says "SATA II is the only type of SATA supported by this RAID controller". The 3ware 9750 seems better suited for enterprise/server environment and firmware allows almost any ssd to be used with it, according to this post by computurd ?

Alas the 3ware though doesn't have "SSD GUARD" the Megaraid 9261 does? Also Lsi just came out with MegaRAID FastPath for ssd. Could i used Megaraid Fastpath with 3ware 9750(same company?) Seems like they are slower with the 3ware development? Anybody know the the major differences between 9261 and 9260? Here is the product page for LSI 9261, 3Ware and all LSI controller comparison pdf file

6x intel x-25mg2 160GB(SSDSA2M160G2R5) or 6x-ocz Vertex Turbo 120GB(1VTXT120G) in a raid 50, cant decide on the hardrives,lol?-Will store database program and storage- The ocz forum is very active, seems like they are at a mature firmware stage 1.5, but the ocz vertex turbo is OVER-CLOCKED, but better long term native trim/garbage collection/self wear leveling? The intel as we all know is rock solid, after some major issues, but I am wondering about the intel longterm native trim/garbage collection/self wear leveling? The recent benchmarks do not include the newest intel firmware for x-25mg2, so past reviews are somewhat misleading.

I am leaning towards the intel, since database main needs are fast I/O, sequential and random read? Correct me if I am wrong. The only thing that bothers me is longterm self wear leveling/native trim/garbage collection is better on the ocz vertex turbo, since windows server version do not have trim?

Almost to the end... 1x-SATA 2TB Western Digital WD RE4 WD2003FYYS-which will be used to back up both os and database, using Symantec Backup Exec 2010

Raid 50?-Leaning towards Raid 50 due to better speed and redundancy according to this site scroll down to see quick comparison? NO RAID 10, as i need the storage space!

Need suggestion on what to do about external offsite back up? Esata hardrive-LaCie 2big Quadra Enterprise-1TB-5year warranty or SimpleTech Duo Pro Drive by hitachi-1TB raid 1, 3year warranty or G-SAFE by hitachi-1TB raid,3year warranty? Not sure why hitachi has these two different brands?

Hope all this isn't too much?
J:)
03-10-2010, 10:27 AM
One_Hertz

In all honesty, considering the number of users and the functionality you need, SAS 15k rpm HDDs would be a much better choice for mission critical work rather than any MLC consumer SSDs. You could save some money, have better redundancy (afford more drives for raid 10), better reliability (5 year vs 3 year warranty), more space, and better error control.

Gigabit Ethernet means less than 120Mbytes/s at max throughput. You do need SSDs for this. Not even for small chunks of data.
03-10-2010, 10:29 AM
bigj91

Sorry corrected the amount of users, actually 5-10 for this office.

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by One_Hertz

In all honesty, considering the number of users and the functionality you need, 15k rpm HDDs would be a much better choice for mission critical work rather than any MLC consumer SSDs. You could save some money, have better redundancy (afford more drives for raid 10), more space, and better error control.

Gigabit Ethernet means less than 120Mbytes/s at max throughput. You do need SSDs for this. Not even for smaller files.
03-10-2010, 04:23 PM
Tiltevros

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigj91

Alas the 3ware though doesn't have "SSD GUARD" the Megaraid 9261 does? Also Lsi just came out with MegaRAID FastPath for ssd. Could i used Megaraid Fastpath with 3ware 9750(same company?) Seems like they are slower with the 3ware development? Anybody know the the major differences between 9261 and 9260? Here is the product page for LSI 9261, 3Ware and all LSI controller comparison pdf file

LSI-9260 and LSI-9261
Are the same controllers only the 9261 has ports down
Now for the SSD gaurd ;) yeah future thing ;) ;) cant say no more

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigj91

6x intel x-25mg2 160GB(SSDSA2M160G2R5) or 6x-ocz Vertex Turbo 120GB(1VTXT120G) in a raid 50, cant decide on the hardrives,lol?-Will store database program and storage- The ocz forum is very active, seems like they are at a mature firmware stage 1.5, but the ocz vertex turbo is OVER-CLOCKED, but better long term native trim/garbage collection/self wear leveling? The intel as we all know is rock solid, after some major issues, but I am wondering about the intel longterm native trim/garbage collection/self wear leveling? The recent benchmarks do not include the newest intel firmware for x-25mg2, so past reviews are somewhat misleading.

I have G1's and G2's newest firmware on them and i have them for 8 months.
I only have degradetion problem after 6 mounths ( 8,53TB writes to my G1's )
no problem till now (plz god dont be cruel to me for saying that)
But i dont think that u r going to need SSD for 5-10 ppl for SQL services.
For my work im using 8 intels E series 64GB's for 459 accounts on oracle DB's and holding 4,22ms of latency for an execute in heavy hours
with a dual CPU E5520 xeons. But an advice for me.. go to SAS just for the reason that One_hertz told you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigj91

Need suggestion on what to do about external offsite back up? Esata hardrive-LaCie 2big Quadra Enterprise-1TB-5year warranty or SimpleTech Duo Pro Drive by hitachi-1TB raid 1, 3year warranty or G-SAFE by hitachi-1TB raid,3year warranty? Not sure why hitachi has these two different brands?

For me Tape drives / streamers is the answer if u can afford
and a security deposite for ur data files yeah like the movies ;)
03-10-2010, 05:59 PM
Spoiler

I agree with Tilt.

For the amount of people you are serving, mechanical SAS drives would be more than sufficient. In my opinion, one of the only main differences you would see between SAS HDD's and SSD's would be power consumption.

Also: my advice for the OS drive would be two drives in Raid 1.

Also: I second the notion for a better backup system. You need onsite backup as well as secure off-site. Preferably a different medium (i.e. Tape)
03-10-2010, 06:45 PM
Computurd

i agree as well. however, i would be leery of 15k drives, i have heard of some reliability issues with them. 10k are much more reliable to my understanding. that would be one to definitely research abit more. with the features being introduced like CacheCade for LSI that is what i would recommend for a cutting edge system with outstanding IOPS, and the speed of ssd, yet the safety and security of a conventional HDD array. i would definitely look into that much further.
03-10-2010, 06:50 PM
Tiltevros

cachecade is not new in storege news.
Adaptec has one like it so its nice to see some competition with this

What is the Adaptec MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit? top of page

The Adaptec MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit consists of a customized Intel 32GB X25-E SATA Solid State Drive, used as high-performance cache, with Adaptec’s MaxIQ SSD Caching Software. The kit can be paired with any Series 5Z, Series 5 or Series 2 Storage Controller to convert industry-standard servers into cost-effective, high-performance scale-out application storage appliances.
What are High-Performance Hybrid Arrays (HPHAs) ? top of page

A data storage architecture approach that is designed to provide IT data centers and cloud computing data centers with high I/O (Input/Output) storage performance at a lower cost per I/O by combining hard disk drives (HDDs) with solid state drives (SSDs) using Adaptec MaxIQ SSD Caching Software.
How does the Adaptec MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit work? top of page

By leveraging its unique presence in the data path, Adaptec MaxIQ SSD caching software introduces a patent-pending Learned-Path Algorithm that identifies frequently-read data, and optimizes “reads” by copying this data directly into an SSD cache pool for faster retrieval of future requests. MaxIQ also updates “hot” cached data on subsequent writes to the same blocks to maximize storage efficiency. Because this is done at the controller level, these processes are completely transparent and do not require any changes to storage architectures, application software or operating systems.
What are the benefits of using the Adaptec MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit? top of page

The MaxIQ SSD cache performance kit provides the following benefits for customers building high-performance hybrid arrays:
Up to 5X faster than HDD-only solutions: MaxIQ Caching Software introduces a patent-pending Learned-Path Algorithm that identifies frequently-read (“hot”) data, and optimizes “reads” by copying this data directly into an SSD cache pool for faster retrieval in future requests.
Reduced capital & operating expenses by up to 50%: MaxIQ reduces capital expenses by increasing IOPS with less hardware — thereby significantly cutting energy and maintenance costs.

How is the MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit different from using a standard SSD with SATA/SAS connectivity or a PCIe-based flash card which can be plugged into a server? top of page

To get maximum performance when using a standard SSD or a PCIe-based flash card, applications must be tuned to store data that requires higher IOPS on the high-performance SSD. This requires that an administrator have intimate knowledge of that specific application and understand how it will benefit by routing data that requires higher IOPS to the SSD. MaxIQ software eliminates this need by transparently analyzing and routing the read and write data and eliminating the need for application-specific tuning.
Secondly, with a standard SSD deployment, data is lost in the case that the SSD fails. With MaxIQ, all the data gets first written to the RAID rotating media, protecting the data in case the SSD cache pool fails.
And finally, standard SSD storage capacities are very small (about 32GB to 160GB) compared to those of rotating disk drives. Therefore, a larger number of SSDs are needed which will increase capital expenditures significantly. With MaxIQ, one can still benefit from the larger capacities of rotating media (HDDs), while gaining the improved I/O performance benefits of the SSDs.
Which applications will likely benefit most from the MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit? top of page

The MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit is ideal for data centers running applications with high “read” demands such as web serving, file serving and databases.
What are the Adaptec MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit contents? top of page

The Adaptec MaxIQ SSD Cache Performance Kit includes a customized Intel X25-E SATA Solid State Drive and the MaxIQ SSD Caching Software. The kit can be paired with any Adaptec Series 5Z, Series 5 or Series 2 Storage Controller.

http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/_common...s/SSD_FAQs.htm
03-10-2010, 08:27 PM
bigj91

So basically, everybody thinks it is too risky still for a raid 50 of intels x-25mg2 for redundancy? Or is it overkill as hertz said, Gigabit Ethernet would be the limiting factor even with ssd?
03-10-2010, 08:36 PM
Computurd

somewhat. the gigabit ethernet will restrict you at that point of course.however, there would be performance gains to be had. for the boost you need i would definitely suggest a hybrid system. a controller with that functionality would be nice. i would not say that it is "risky" for a raid of 50 intels, not by any means. they are enterprise class for sure.
it really isnt about the risks involved, i dont feel there are any
it is an issue of whether or not it is needed in your application. i dont think it is. and also a tremndous amount of it has to do with price v performance ratio.
03-10-2010, 09:57 PM
bigj91

Thanks Computurd, and everybody else for the critiques.

I agree about the price v performance, and what is really needed. I was looking, the Hitachi 15k ultrastar 300gb with 5yr warranty, is $350, only $100 dollars less than an intel 160GB x25mg2 with 3yr warranty. I only need about 600GB max storage space, so price is not that big difference. How about this setup, 2x crucial c300 128GB in a raid 1 for OS, SAS 6Gbps, raid 50,6x- 3.5" hitachi 15k 300gb? Also Lsi 9260 or 3ware 9750? Computurd is this what you meant by hybird?, anybody else suggestions?

thanks
J

Quote:

Originally Posted by Computurd

somewhat. the gigabit ethernet will restrict you at that point of course.however, there would be performance gains to be had. for the boost you need i would definitely suggest a hybrid system. a controller with that functionality would be nice. i would not say that it is "risky" for a raid of 50 intels, not by any means. they are enterprise class for sure.
it really isnt about the risks involved, i dont feel there are any
it is an issue of whether or not it is needed in your application. i dont think it is. and also a tremndous amount of it has to do with price v performance ratio.
03-10-2010, 10:02 PM
Computurd

by a hybrid system i mean either a cachecade setup or something similar to the maxIQ setup. they use the SSD as cache for the hdd array, giving you the best of both worlds.
03-11-2010, 05:22 AM
Spoiler

About your OS drives in Raid 1...

Since the Micron drives are relatively new, I wouldn't recommend them yet for a system that will be running 24/7. You will be fine with a pair mechanical drives or ssds that have decent garbage collection. Again, I would go for the drives that have the most reliability -enterprise SAS drivess, Intel SSD's, or maybe (small maybe) indilinx controller SSD's.