Thinking, maybe it wont work?

Ok i have read some stuff on T.E.C cooling and i still know VERY little, but i do know a large amount about WC and i am currently WC my own rig and in the process of upgrading. But i don't want to put a tec pad on my CPU or GPU (due to condensation and i want my rig to look nice aswell as perform well) would it be possible to somehow cool the water in my tubes? Such as attach the tec to a rad or... ? Ok not o below room temp be just to cool the water slightly so to help the radiators? Its just an idea but is it possible?

~Jiggy :)

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Originally Posted by jiggyghallam

Ok i have read some stuff on T.E.C cooling and i still know VERY little, but i do know a large amount about WC and i am currently WC my own rig and in the process of upgrading. But i don't want to put a tec pad on my CPU or GPU (due to condensation and i want my rig to look nice aswell as perform well) would it be possible to somehow cool the water in my tubes? Such as attach the tec to a rad or... ? Ok not o below room temp be just to cool the water slightly so to help the radiators? Its just an idea but is it possible?

~Jiggy :)

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It is possible...sort of...It probably wont be quite as easy as you imagined.

Your main problem is that TEC's as a rule don't cool things slightly.

You won't be able to just add a TEC to your rad. You will have to fashion some sort of interface between the coldside of the TEC and your coolant loop possibly using a waterblock. Your main consideration with waterblocks is getting waterblocks without a raised contact area or a contact area sufficiently large to completely cover the TEC surface.

your best bet would be a large wattage TEC (unfortunately usually 62mm square - see waterblock problem above.) undervolted to a large degree - it might then be possible to run it from say the 5v line on your PSU and attach a heatsink fan assembly to cool the hotside - there is a possibility that such a system would be self-regulating the problem is it might still go below ambient.
The person here with experience and knowledge of such a setup is Uncle Jimbo - he pops in now and again but you could try sending a PM.

Thankyou zipdogso :)

Well this is an idea....

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...tomsofTj07.jpg

Flow direction is Pump > 360 rad > 240 rad > system

I am getting Tj07 (on wednesday woooo :D) this is what the bottom could look like with the pad pad in there, maybe the cool side of the tec pad could be attached to a waterblock so when the water runs through it would cool it, then the water would go into the rad to either cool it further or heat it up slightly?

-Would you be able to give me links to TEC pads on ebay?
-How much wattage would i pad take?
-If i got a 250w pad, would that cool the water less meaning i dont have to under volt a 400w?
-Would i have to cool the other side of the TEC pad, any ideas on that?
-If TEC very complex? or is it just simply wire it up and voila?

~Thank you, Jiggy.

Edit: Just put some ideas together... Would this work?

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...Cblockcopy.jpg

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Originally Posted by jiggyghallam

-Would you be able to give me links to TEC pads on ebay?
-How much wattage would i pad take?
-If i got a 250w pad, would that cool the water less meaning i dont have to under volt a 400w?
-Would i have to cool the other side of the TEC pad, any ideas on that?
-If TEC very complex? or is it just simply wire it up and voila?

~Thank you, Jiggy.

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In answer to your questions and a bit more -

**They are a solid multilayered electrical device - calling them "pads" is a bit.....They are not magical coolers they are merely heatpumps moving heat from one side of the TEC to the other.

**Ebay is not the best place to buy TEC's. You may not even be able to buy the ideal TEC for this project from Ebay. Uncle Jimbo will know the one you need and where to get it.

**They are available in a number of wattages you have to get the right size.

**When powered at rated voltage all TEC's in the right setup will go subambient whatever their size. You will have to give a 250w TEC more power to achieve the same cooling as a larger (400w say.) at lower power. It is the underpowering of a large unit that gets the stability allowing it to achieve a small rate of change in temperature.

**You will HAVE to cool the hotside of the TEC - running a TEC without hotside cooling will cause it burn out.

With regards to your last question -
Let's just say you wont be doing this on wednesday when you get your case. Probably not the wednesday after either....or sometime after that. It needs properly setting up or it wont work.
The specific way I first described using the TEC needs setting up just right.If you want to proceed with this I really do recommend you get in touch with Uncle Jimbo unfortunately he may not reply quickly BUT he will be able to tell you exactly how to set this up properly - with the right size TEC and everything. I don't have enough experience of this.

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Originally Posted by jiggyghallam

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...Cblockcopy.jpg

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Your last picture is something you will have to do to cool the hotside BUT it will only work with an undervolted high wattage TEC. It will not be sufficient for a lower wattage TEC (250w) used with a higher input voltage you will require another water cooling loop for that.

A last point -
A Rad in free air will always heat up coolant that is at a lower temperature than the air the rad is in.

Wow thanks for all your help :)

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**They are a solid multilayered electrical device - calling them "pads" is a bit.....They are not magical coolers they are merely heatpumps moving heat from one side of the TEC to the other.

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Oww i like magic coolers :rolleyes:

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**When powered at rated voltage all TEC's in the right setup will go subambient whatever their size. You will have to give a 250w TEC more power to achieve the same cooling as a larger (400w say.) at lower power. It is the underpowering of a large unit that gets the stability allowing it to achieve a small rate of change in temperature.

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So a 400w and undervolting it would be better than a 250w and overvolting because i can choose how much cooling power i would like to have

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**You will HAVE to cool the hotside of the TEC - running a TEC without hotside cooling will cause it burn out.

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Would it take a lot of cooling? Is it proportional to the cooling/heat transfer it does?


I send Uncle Jimbo a PM so if he does have time he might come along and help :)

If the TEC was powerful enough (within reason) would it be able to cool the coolant?

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A Rad in free air will always heat up coolant that is at a lower temperature than the air the rad is in.

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I did it that way so that if the water does drop to low it would warm it up, as i don't want condensation on my tubes, if i adjust fan speeds on the rads i should be able to find a perfect temp maybe?

Thank you

~Jiggy

What if replace water radiator (technically not a big problem) with multiple TECs "in-order"? could that cool liquid enough? say.. -20C`?

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Originally Posted by Delfistyaosani

What if replace water radiator (technically not a big problem) with multiple TECs "in-order"? could that cool liquid enough? say.. -20C`?

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Yes you effectively need to build a multiple TEC chiller unit. It will be a self-build thing and you need more the basic TEC knowledge to get it to work effectively. Failures for this project far outnumber the successes. If you live where A/C is cheap some people are better off modding a window A/C to make a coolant chiller or a slush-box.

The usual way to go about this is to get a series of HDD waterblocks and sandwich TECs between them. You need to hack up the blocks a little to be able to provide the needed mounting pressures to secure the TECs properly, but you can then run a "hot loop" and "cold loop" - hot loop goes to rad to dissipate heat from the hot-side of the TECs, cold loop goes to waterblocks. With this setup, though, it's difficult to stay consistently above dew point.

Why HDD waterblocks? TEC modules are made of copper by cool side right? So I could solder a copper tube to TECs like this:

(not a master of 3D max but guess u'll get my idea :P)

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4201/krender.th.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9324/renderq.th.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2186/zrender.th.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/130/renderb.th.jpg

[QUOTE=Delfistyaosani;3874923]Why HDD waterblocks? TEC modules are made of copper by cool side right? So I could solder a copper tube to TECs like this:


No mate....standard ones have a type of ceramic on the sides similar to that of the tiles on a space shuttle.
You can get them with metalized sides.....at a premium.

Is that where you got your idea of copper and iron ?

Your idea by the way will not be sufficient to cool the hotsides of large TECs run at rated input power, and powering them without cooling on the hotsides burns them out.

Copper and iron?

It was mentioned on wikipedia that iron-copper could work, but I couldn't get any effect. However I'm very lucky that one of my friends is in USA so he han purchase some of that lovely modules for me to experiment :)

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powering them without cooling on the hotsides burns them out.

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Of course, I even added some heatsinks to my ancient (tube) TV-s transistors :D cooling hot sides is not a big problem, have some ideas about that, for example simply attaching a CPU stock cooler or even water streaming down TEC-s hot surfaces :surf:

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Originally Posted by Delfistyaosani

Copper and iron?
:D cooling hot sides is not a big problem, have some ideas about that, for example simply attaching a CPU stock cooler or even water streaming down TEC-s hot surfaces :surf:

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The first one i can live with....the second suggestion seriously gives me the jitters, you do realize, of course, that largest TEC's at rated power have sufficient volt/amp to kill you ? Sealed or not I wouldn't go splashing water around them...and yes I know they can get condensation on them but there are ways to deal with that.

Don't worry man, once 20K volts ran trough me :D (from right hand to legs and then 1-2 cm "jump" to floor :D ) so if a TEC kills me it would be a big shame :mad:

Ok-ok... seriously I'm gonna get some of these modules and add a chilling cycle to my franken-liquid-cooler :D (cercedes's oil pump "powered" with a two-phase AC motor made in USSR, refrigerator's heatsink....) so if liquid (a mix of freon, diesel and "cars" oil) gets chilled a bit after normal cooling it would be nice :up:

P.S. "water" actually means that :banana::banana::banana::banana:tail described above :D of course I'm not gonna use the water I drink ;)

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Originally Posted by jiggyghallam

So a 400w and undervolting it would be better than a 250w and overvolting because i can choose how much cooling power i would like to have

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No...you cannot overvolt...it will kill the unit.
If you have a large wattage TEC and run it with a very low voltage the unit will not vary in temp so much allowing you to cool by just a few degrees (which is what you want to do.) otherwise the unit will cool by a large margin - a 400w at normal voltage and a small load will often go subzero never mind subambient. In normal use TEC's do not cool by just a few degrees. The reason you use a large wattage TEC is because the amount of cooling is proportional to the input power so you get 400w cooling at FULL power and proportional less at lower power- so to get control you need a low voltage but if you use a low wattage TEC at the low voltage the cooling power will be very small. So you need a large wattage TEC so when you run it at low voltage you still have some cooling power.

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Originally Posted by jiggyghallam

Would it take a lot of cooling? Is it proportional to the cooling/heat transfer it does?

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Yes that's right but the problem is the TEC also generates heat within itself proportional to the input power so a 400w TEC at full power might be transferring 400w heat but it is also generating...perhaps 300w itself so the cooling required could be 700w. In your scenario with a large undervolted TEC you are unlikely to be requiring more than 100w cooling so you use a heatsink fan arrangement remember most STOCK cpu fans are good for 100-150w depending on size. In normal use at normal input power most TEC's we use in computers need water-cooling on the hotside.

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Originally Posted by jiggyghallam

I send Uncle Jimbo a PM so if he does have time he might come along and help :)

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I hope so because whilst i can help you to a point and show you your plan is not hopeless I don't have quite enough experience to be sure i give you the right size TEC. It is pretty critical if you don't set this up properly it won't work.

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Originally Posted by jiggyghallam

If the TEC was powerful enough (within reason) would it be able to cool the coolant?

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Oh course it will..... there is no question of it cooling the coolant....we need to make sure it doesn't cool too much !!!

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Originally Posted by Delfistyaosani

Don't worry man, once 20K volts ran trough me :D (from right hand to legs and then 1-2 cm "jump" to floor :D ) so if a TEC kills me it would be a big shame :mad:

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Yeah I must admit it would probably have to be a direct shot through the heart and you have to be feeling less than 100% but I don't think to pays to be complacent about these things.

35v will be enough to get through the skin and to electricity you are basically a bag of water so once it's through the skin.....once there milliamps direct to the heart muscle will stop it.

So while people like you survive big shots it is worth remembering exactly how little CAN end your life....

Listen man, shall I film a video how I hold 73V AC output without any protection (220v makes me feel like an ant-invasion :D )? :D oh.. and one of my neighbors has a 25KV "shock" almost every day because of cars with russian "mods" and what? He's 45+ and no health problems ;) so if u're afraid of electricity it doesn't means everyone must be :P

And did you ever think that physical life is not the best thing u can have? ;)

What about TEC-s.. as I see typical coefficient of thermal pump is about half of TECs power right? So if I pick three 70W ones "qudroflow" coolers should be enough to cool them and if "entering" liquid's temp is near ambient it might get subzero won't it?

Oh I am not afraid I trained as an electrical engineer just have a healthy respect...that's a bit different.

On the TEC I wouldn't know....you obviously know better than me....

Thank you for your help so far, i will be getting my case on wednesday/thursday, so i will see how much space i have and such.

I have also been thinking, if i went out and bought a cheap 400 - 500w PSU would that power the TEC but for neatness purposes, have the PSU out of site under the desk or in the desk itself then only run the neccicary wires to the PC neatly? I was also thinking instead of buying a block i cud get a custom one milled...?

So list for TEC cooled water so far is
-PSU (dependent on TEC power)
-TEC pad (duh :D)
-A waterblock, custom or retail, not sure yet
-A heatsink and fans for the underside

What else? :D

~Jiggy

U'll need a powerful heatsink at hot side cus it might be two times strong than Q9550 at 1.8 v :P

and don't forger that a 400W PSU doesn't give u full power at a single 12V rail, read carefully to ensure PSU volts/amps are greater or equal than rated power of TEC or your PSU will have a short way to haven ;)