Massive Power that is Inaudible for us Watercoolers !

(This post was orginally in another of my threads but I thought it might help some folks out)

Hey Fellow Watercoolers,

I know that many of you have super-rigs and that you are always looking for upscale power supplies that are very quiet (like the Corsair 620). I having been getting some traffic lately about folks watercooling their power supplies and the resulting noise levels. At this time, I do not recommend this course of action. So, I suggest something along the following lines (although you do not have to use this specific PSU):

(WARNING - Please undertake this only if you know what you are doing and have some experience working with electronics. I assume that many here at XS do, but one never knows. Placing your hand into a PSU, even a just turned off PSU with the power cord unattached, can result in you getting to the Big Man with the Beard and Cane/Nirvana/the 79 Virgins in the Desert faster than you had planned)

1 - Buy the Thermaltake 1200/1000/850/750 Toughpower (which absolutely no one would ever need but does include only one fairly quiet 140 mm YL fan).
2 - Carefully crack the unit open.
3 - Remove the stock fan and replace it with this: http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=20771
4 - Now remove the special 2 pin plastic fan header from the stock fan with a safety pin and snap on or solder this plastic header to the new fan (in this case I had to solder two small fan pins to the wires on the new fan to fit into the stock 2 pin header from the stock fan) and undervolt the fan to 7 volts before it reaches the PCB
5 - Remove the crap plastic shorting strips, cut them and then glue two patches to the side to prevent shorts (if not removed, your PSU will whine over 700 ~ 800 watts load)(All Toughpower and many other PSUs have these to prevent shorts)
5 - Rescrew the fan to the top and reinstall carefully. While your at it, put some heatshrink on the wires coming out of the Toughpower.
6 - Now listen to that monster go at only 17 ~ 20 dBa! (of course your exhaust temps will now run 49 deg C instead of 44 at 350 watts load, but still not bad)

Caveat: I would only do this mod though if you plan on drawing 700 watts or less from the Toughpower. If your really are in that 0.1% of people that has Quad SLI, 10 RAID 0 arrays and five water loops, just leave in the stock fan. It is not that loud, ~30 dBa.

Jay

Pic #1 - This is the replacement D14 SM-12 YL fan
Pic #2 - The replacement fan beside the TT Toughpower 1200 watt PSU
Pic #3 - The reinstallation is almost finished (You will not hear this baby now unless you put your ears three inches away)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

1 - Buy the Thermaltake 1200/1000/850/750 Toughpower (which absolutely no one would ever need but does include only one fairly quiet 140 mm YL fan).

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Jay, This is confusing... if it includes a fairly quiet 140mm YL fan, why replace it with the same thing?

Also, your link is broken... I assume you are pointing people to this?

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=20771

Also...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

I having been getting some traffic lately about folks watercooling their power supplies and the resulting noise levels. At this time, I do not recommend this course of action.

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Where is this traffic?... I would like to review the debate. Also why do you not recommend watercooling PSU's? Perhaps I agree in general, but there are situations in which it can be done appropriately and makes sense. I say this because I have had a water cooled PSU for a year without issues and I like the lack of noise it makes. I like it so much I'm adding a second one to my new rig.

Wrong forum section? Why not get a Seasonic S12II or other low noise psu in the first place for less money and less overkill.

Besides you will loose warranty and people without the necessary skill might very well electrocute themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by virtualrain

Jay, This is confusing... if it includes a fairly quiet 140mm YL fan, why replace it with the same thing?

Also, your link is broken... I assume you are pointing people to this?

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=20771

Also...



Where is this traffic?... I would like to review the debate. Also why do you not recommend watercooling PSU's? Perhaps I agree in general, but there are situations in which it can be done appropriately and makes sense. I say this because I have had a water cooled PSU for a year without issues and I like the lack of noise it makes. I like it so much I'm adding a second one to my new rig.

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Hey Virtual Rain,
This entire thread was inspired by you. First off, I got the link to work, I believe. Second, the fan that comes stock with the Toughpower 1200 and 1000 watt models (cant speak about the 850 and 750) is a I believe (I had this in some file or another and cant seem to get to it at the moment) a Yate Loon D14BH-12 that can is controlled by the PCB to output up to 2400 rpm or 120 cfm at 44.5 dBa (in other words, loud). The replacement fan is the D14SM-12 at 62 cfm/1400 rpm/29 dba or at 7 volts it is 42 cfm/~1050 rpm/~19 dBa (much quieter). The traffic is just some folks asking me about the merits of watercooled PSUs (like I am some authority, ha).
There is nothing wrong with watercooled PSUs in principle, but 2nd law of Thermo, that heat has to go somewhere, whether it is to a special fan/radiator combo like the Koolance 1200 watt watercooled PSU (in which case you still have almost the same noise of a regular PSU) or is fed back into the water of one of your other loops (or a dedicated loop), or is fed into copper coils that stick outta the back and dissipate heat passively (although these units rarely go above 450 watts due to their passive nature). Certain models of watercooled PSUs also border on the dangerous. They are not good for noobs, generally weigh more, and many that have them run them in the same loop as their CPU, GPU, etc greatly increasing their temps (remember, even the best desktop PSUs out right now only operate at about 85% efficiency, which means that 15% of the AC current is converted to waste heat with 60 to 80% of that being radiated into your water line depending upon the design of the watercooled PSU, and at a 700 watt load, that is 63 to 84 watts !!! Yikes !!! (Hotter than a QX6700 at idle)).
The far simpler, safer and quieter way, is to simply, buy a power supply with well known caps and transformers (say, rated at 85 to 105 deg C) that has more wattage by a factor of 1.5 than you need and then add a quieter custom fan (which will increase internal temps by 3 to 7 deg C, but not in a dangerous way). In this way you can have massive power at really, inaudible levels.

Jay

Hey Virtual Rain, BTW, I am getting around to answering your question on the multiple blocks (I am just busy today due to the vet inspection for the monkeys in our labs). Here is the first paragraph of that answer (I know it doesn't seem like it has much to do with chipset blocks and dedicated loops but that is because I am not finished):

The question about whether you want a pump with more head pressure (like the DDC + 18 watt version) or a pump with more flow (like the MCP 655); or likewise whether it is better to have a high impingement block (like the Storm) with reduced flow or a low impingement block (like the Fuzion) with greater flow or a block that might be somewhere in between, like the Apogee GT, turns out to be surprisingly difficult to give a one sentence answer to. These exact questions that many of you have wrestled with when choosing your blocks or pumps in a slightly different context are the same questions that stumped the ancient Romans when building aquaducts to bring water into Rome. That is because the two critical components in the performance of your water loop, pressure and flow are COUPLED. That is why it is so difficult to have an intrinsic or instinctual feel for what is going on (believe me when I say that this was also argued about fiercely until the matter was finally laid to rest in the early 1800s). Consider for a moment this quandry: If I have a high flow waterblock with almost no pins on it, the water should move across its surface quicker (since there are no pins to block its flow) allowing the water to flow over the block's smooth surface and take more heat away, right? But wait, if the block has very tall copper pins sticking up from the base or a wide area of pins (like the Apogee GTX) they provide much greater surface area for transmitting heat into the passing water, right? But then again, those pins sticking up are blocking the flow of some of the water, right? So, now which block design is the best?

More to come this evening,
Jay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fairydust

Wrong forum section? Why not get a Seasonic S12II or other low noise psu in the first place for less money and less overkill.

Besides you will loose warranty and people without the necessary skill might very well electrocute themselves.

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Hey FairyDust,
Sorry, but I did mean for it to go here in the liquid cooling section because this area gets a great much traffic and interested noobs. Very generally speaking there is nothing wrong with Seasonic, Corsair etc. The difference is that those units have fans that are closely matched in rpm to the wattage without alot of headroom for lowing that rpm rating (at less noise) while maintaining temps of less than 55 ~60 deg C inside the unit.
With a larger unit, as long as you do not need all the wattage (and with 1200 watts, who would) you DO have the headroom to lower that fan rpm (and hence the noise output) by a fairly large margin.
Thanks for your warning, I have now added a warning to the instructions above. I appreciate it.

Jay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Hey Virtual Rain,
This entire thread was inspired by you. First off, I got the link to work, I believe. Second, the fan that comes stock with the Toughpower 1200 and 1000 watt models (cant speak about the 850 and 750) is a I believe (I had this in some file or another and cant seem to get to it at the moment) a Yate Loon D14BH-12 that can is controlled by the PCB to output up to 2400 rpm or 120 cfm at 44.5 dBa (in other words, loud). The replacement fan is the D14SM-12 at 62 cfm/1400 rpm/29 dba or at 7 volts it is 42 cfm/~1050 rpm/~19 dBa (much quieter). The traffic is just some folks asking me about the merits of watercooled PSUs (like I am some authority, ha).

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I see. That wasn't obvious from your OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

There is nothing wrong with watercooled PSUs in principle, but <snip> They are not good for noobs, <bla bla bla>

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I agree. Water cooling isn't for everyone and water cooling PSU's isn't for everyone either... but as with water cooling anything, it can be done well or poorly. It can be a very effective way to remove some noise from your system with the right selection of components, loop design, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

The question about whether you want a pump with more head pressure (like the DDC + 18 watt version) or a pump with more flow (like the MCP 655); or likewise whether it is better to have a high impingement block (like the Storm) with reduced flow or a low impingement block (like the Fuzion) with greater flow or a block that might be somewhere in between, like the Apogee GT, turns out to be surprisingly difficult to give a one sentence answer to. These exact questions that many of you have wrestled with when choosing your blocks or pumps in a slightly different context are the same questions that stumped the ancient Romans when building aquaducts to bring water into Rome. That is because the two critical components in the performance of your water loop, pressure and flow are COUPLED. That is why it is so difficult to have an intrinsic or instinctual feel for what is going on (believe me when I say that this was also argued about fiercely until the matter was finally laid to rest in the early 1800s). Consider for a moment this quandry: If I have a high flow waterblock with almost no pins on it, the water should move across its surface quicker (since there are no pins to block its flow) allowing the water to flow over the block's smooth surface and take more heat away, right? But wait, if the block has very tall copper pins sticking up from the base or a wide area of pins (like the Apogee GTX) they provide much greater surface area for transmitting heat into the passing water, right? But then again, those pins sticking up are blocking the flow of some of the water, right? So, now which block design is the best?

More to come this evening,
Jay

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I'll drag this over to your other thread so we aren't off topic here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by virtualrain

I see. That wasn't obvious from your OP.




I agree. Water cooling isn't for everyone and water cooling PSU's isn't for everyone either... but as with water cooling anything, it can be done well or poorly. It can be a very effective way to remove some noise from your system with the right selection of components, loop design, etc.



I'll drag this over to your other thread so we aren't off topic here.

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Hey VR,
With no disrespect (I know, you know what you are doing) intended, you may want to consider on your next rig trying the custom fan replacement technique for the PSU. When I say that you can reach DAMN quiet levels of operation, I really mean it. There really are components that benefit from WC both for overclocking and noise reasons, like the CPU, GPU and chipsets. IMHO, the PSU, hard drives and memory just dont see those benefits or need that type of cooling.

Jay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Hey VR,
With no disrespect (I know, you know what you are doing) intended, you may want to consider on your next rig trying the custom fan replacement technique for the PSU. When I say that you can reach DAMN quiet levels of operation, I really mean it. There really are components that benefit from WC both for overclocking and noise reasons, like the CPU, GPU and chipsets. IMHO, the PSU, hard drives and memory just dont see those benefits or need that type of cooling.

Jay

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No disrespect taken. In fact, I have a Corsair PSU in my HTPC where noise is even more of a factor... so go figure! :) In my main rig, I'm running a dedicated loop for my chipsets and mosfets so adding the PSU's comes at little to no penalty. Admittedly it's largely a novelty but so is a lot of what we do around here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by virtualrain

Where is this traffic?... I would like to review the debate. Also why do you not recommend watercooling PSU's? Perhaps I agree in general, but there are situations in which it can be done appropriately and makes sense. I say this because I have had a water cooled PSU for a year without issues and I like the lack of noise it makes. I like it so much I'm adding a second one to my new rig.

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Hey, which kind of PSU is that? Is it retail or homemade? I have a seasonic PSU which is near silent, I highly recommend but I've always been interested in watercooled PSUs.

The Corsair's are also made by Seasonic and, I agree, are very quiet.

For my main rig I have a couple of SilentMaxx/Alphacool PSU's like this...

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...s/12504_01.jpg

Link

I don't like the block design (fairly restrictive)so I'm replacing it with a mosfet block. The block is just bolted to the end of a heat sink that protrudes slightly out the rear. Even if it leaks, no water will enter the PSU chassis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by virtualrain

The Corsair's are also made by Seasonic and, I agree, are very quiet.

For my main rig I have a couple of SilentMaxx/Alphacool PSU's like this...

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...s/12504_01.jpg

Link

I don't like the block design (fairly restrictive)so I'm replacing it with a mosfet block. The block is just bolted to the end of a heat sink that protrudes slightly out the rear. Even if it leaks, no water will enter the PSU chassis.

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Ahh, I had seen this one before, now I remember the dismissal: price tag :-/ But it's definitely luring, I think the design is very clever. I think this kind of PSU would take off if it were hybrid, ie with a fan. Passive PSUs work like this, with the fan being more of a safety measure.

I still gotta sort out my hard drive noise before I go into further PSU silencing though :)

I did the same idea with my OCZ GameXStream 600w; Replaced it with a Scythe S-Flex D (The ultra quiet one).

No problems with the power supply yet. All voltages are exactly the same as they were, And the PSU's ambient temp is only 5C higher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevinbo03

I did the same idea with my OCZ GameXStream 600w; Replaced it with a Scythe S-Flex D (The ultra quiet one).

No problems with the power supply yet. All voltages are exactly the same as they were, And the PSU's ambient temp is only 5C higher.

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Hey Kevin,
The GamerXStream series of power supplies is another group of good units that are easy to get down to very low noise levels without running into danger. This fan trick I put above, as everyone knows is nothing new, but boy can it make a big difference! On the order of quieting stuff down, I would say go for the:

1 - CPU airsink first with a waterblock
2 - GPU " " " (although for some folks one and two here are reversed - think ATI 1900 card owners)
3 - PSU (hey, $10 here can make a huge difference here)
4 - Any 40 mm fans and the chipset areas with either passive solutions or waterblocks
5 - All other fans in the case

Jay

why don't u guys try this? http://www.overclockers.com/tips1240/
this method seems like a pretty good way to wc a psu.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boogerlad

why don't u guys try this? http://www.overclockers.com/tips1240/
this method seems like a pretty good way to wc a psu.

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It does look very nice but no thanks I am not doing it to my new Thermaltake Toughpower 1200 Watt which by the way is a beast and runs quite cool and quiet anyway.

Where is Wiz when we need him most!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boogerlad

why don't u guys try this? http://www.overclockers.com/tips1240/
this method seems like a pretty good way to wc a psu.

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:shock2: Crazy!

Hey Virtual Rain,
While I work my butt off to type up some coherent answers to your complex questions about multiple blocks (sorry for the delay, but I had to deal with the issue of the MCP 355 failures since that affects so many XS members) could you send us some pics of your setup?
Even though, for the reasons stated above, I feel watercooled PSUs are more trouble that they are worth (especially for noobs), it would still be fun to see yours in action.

Whadda ya say?

Jay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Hey Virtual Rain,
While I work my butt off to type up some coherent answers to your complex questions about multiple blocks (sorry for the delay, but I had to deal with the issue of the MCP 355 failures since that affects so many XS members) could you send us some pics of your setup?
Even though, for the reasons stated above, I feel watercooled PSUs are more trouble that they are worth (especially for noobs), it would still be fun to see yours in action.

Whadda ya say?

Jay

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Give me a week... the build is coming together. I just finished the case mods and got it back from the powdercoating shop Friday... then I needed to move my old rig to a new case to free up some of my existing components... basically the short story is that I'm getting close but need a few more days before I have enough done to be worthy of posting a thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

JargonGR
here's liquid 1200w psu that will match your zulman unit

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Hey I am aware of this good looking (but not so good) PSU but it is overkill even if it was perfect for an HTPC. I can barely hear the crappy ancient Enermax 550Watt I have in it but there are nice and quiet solutions to try without going to 1200Watt (even though the koolance does not performa up to this).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JargonGR

Hey I am aware of this good looking (but not so good) PSU but it is overkill even if it was perfect for an HTPC. I can barely hear the crappy ancient Enermax 550Watt I have in it but there are nice and quiet solutions to try without going to 1200Watt (even though the koolance does not performa up to this).

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Yes, out of the box, I have found the Seasonic and Corsair PSUs to be very quiet. OCZ GamerXStream and Thermaltake Toughpower are also fairly quiet, especially for their higher wattage, due to their single 120mm or 140 mm fans. Any of these four brands can also be customized with quieter fans for ULTRA silent operation.
On the other hand, I do have experience with PC Power and Cooling as well (I know I will probably be flamed into hell here, but it is the truth), and almost all their models would border on what I call 'very loud'. The newer Silencer models are a bit quieter, but nothing like Seasonic or Corsair.

Hope this helps,
Jay

the PSU I have right now is really really quiet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The_Beast

the PSU I have right now is really really quiet

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How would we know what that is, unless you give us some more info or pics?