Some New Brazing Equipment

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12-09-2006, 08:37 AM
Brettbeck

Some New Brazing Equipment

Well about a month ago I got a BOC Saffire welding torch off ebay. After my exams finished, I started getting the rest of the parts, working towards an oxy-propane brazing setup.

This morning we went to our local BOC place…

http://russell-photographer.co.uk/Br...d/PC091961.JPG

http://russell-photographer.co.uk/Br...d/PC091956.JPG

And now my brazing setup looks like this…apart from when I got home and set everything up, the 19Kg propane bottle was empty:(. So 30 minutes later, we went and got another one :D. Also swapped a small butane bottle we had for a propane one (for charging).

http://russell-photographer.co.uk/Br...d/IMG_2423.JPG

The kit consists of;

- BOC Oxygen Bottle, Size X (230bar). This is rated at 8hours continuous welding…so god knows how long it will last for brazing :D!
- 19Kg Propane Bottle
- BOC Saffire Lite welding torch, with propane mixer
- 5m oxy-acetylene hose, 3/8” fittings
- BOC 8000 Series oxygen regulator, single-stage (300bar inlet, up to 10bar outlet)
- BOC 6000 Series propane regulator, single-stage (25bar inlet, up to 4bar outlet)
- BOC resettable oxygen flashback arrestor
- Fuel gas resettable flashback arrestor (I forget which make)

I’m VERY pleased with the setup. The guy down at BOC was so friendly and was willing to help us with anything. These regulators are awesome too, i'd recommend them to anyone. Went for these rather than ‘x brand’ ones for the safety aspect, as well as using resettable flashback arrestors :).

Here are some more pictures…

BOC Series 8000 oxygen regulator;
http://russell-photographer.co.uk/Br...d/IMG_2414.JPG

http://russell-photographer.co.uk/Br...d/IMG_2418.JPG

BOC Series 6000 propane regulator;
http://russell-photographer.co.uk/Br...d/IMG_2415.JPG

Oxygen cylinder chained to the trolley, and wedged in with the other bottles. It may look slightly insecure, but it wont be falling over.
http://russell-photographer.co.uk/Br...d/IMG_2419.JPG

Saffire torch;
http://russell-photographer.co.uk/Br...d/IMG_2421.JPG

First time we started it, we were using a very small pressure of both gases, and within 5seconds of the flame being on some ¼” copper pipe, it melted straight away, on the carpet :p:. Oops!

I have a quick question to anyone who uses oxygen and a fuel gas for brazing. What output pressures do you use on each gas?

Cheers,
Brett :)
12-09-2006, 08:50 AM
m411b

I have no idea what pressures to use, but that is a very nice setup. Looks expensive too. I need to invest in a setup similar.
12-09-2006, 08:58 AM
Brettbeck

Thanks :). It is an expensive way to go, but probably the best IMO. I probably won't need to get either of these bottles filled up for maybe even a year!

I saved a fair amount by getting the torch and hose off ebay, and the flashback arrestors free :D. The 19Kg propane bottle we already had as well.

You could save much more by getting smaller sized gas bottles, smaller hoses and used regulators if you wanted to do it really cheap :).
12-09-2006, 10:07 AM
SSJ5

How much did all these cost?
12-09-2006, 10:26 AM
wdrzal

1 Attachment(s)

is the unit on the left FLASHBACK ARRESTOR looks like pressure relief valve to me, it may contain a arrestor but double check that.

while those are good regulators by a good company,2 stage regulators keep you from continually adjusting the pressure as the tank empties. with a 2 stage regulator say the oxygen tank has 3500psi when full.Then you set the 2 stage regulator for 50 psi for cutting . a 2 stage regulator will maintain that pressure as the tank empties from 3500psi down to 50 psi. NO further adjusting will be necessary.

(In short using 2 stage regulators ,the tank pressure dose not effect the secondary set pressure.)

With single stage regulators, take same 3500psi tank pressure and as the tank pressure drops you will need to constantly adjust the pressure to maintain the 50 psi. By turning the regulator in.

(In single stage regulators The tank pressure affects the secondary set pressure.)

Nothing wrong with single stage regulators just took this opportunity to explain the difference.
12-09-2006, 12:56 PM
Brettbeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJ5

How much did all these cost?

I think the total was around £200 for everything :), which I don't think was bad at all for what i've got!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

is the unit on the left FLASHBACK ARRESTOR looks like pressure relief valve to me, it may contain a arrestor but double check that.

while those are good regulators by a good company,2 stage regulators keep you from continually adjusting the pressure as the tank empties. with a 2 stage regulator say the oxygen tank has 3500psi when full.Then you set the 2 stage regulator for 50 psi for cutting . a 2 stage regulator will maintain that pressure as the tank empties from 3500psi down to 50 psi. NO further adjusting will be necessary.

(In short using 2 stage regulators ,the tank pressure dose not effect the secondary set pressure.)

With single stage regulators, take same 3500psi tank pressure and as the tank pressure drops you will need to constantly adjust the pressure to maintain the 50 psi. By turning the regulator in.

(In single stage regulators The tank pressure affects the secondary set pressure.)

Nothing wrong with single stage regulators just took this opportunity to explain the difference.

Im almost certain its a flashback arrestor, but it may be a relief valve too. Although i'm sure my regulator has a relief valve on it anyway :).
I knew the 2 stage regulators are a little better, but I was told that for brazing like I will use this equipment for, I only needed single stage ones really. Plus, I got these at a really good price :)! Maybe when i've got a job I will get some 2 stage ones :).

A few minutes ago I was playing a bit, doing some brass to copper brazing. I found some access valves I had ordered a while ago, but got the ones without the copper extension on...so I decided to braze a bit of 1/4" pipe to the ends, which fitted in nicely.

http://www.justmyluck.f9.co.uk/Brett...d/IMG_2432.JPG

Brazed;

http://www.justmyluck.f9.co.uk/Brett...d/IMG_2436.JPG

I used 45% silver rods and a small amount of flux :).

Also, i'm using 2bar output on both oxygen and propane, with a size 5 BOC welding nozzle. Is this output pressure ok?
12-09-2006, 03:57 PM
Clemmaster

Don't know about oxy-propan but the best for oxy-acetylen is :

oxygen : 1.2 bar relative (2.2 bar)
Acetylene : 0.3 bar relative (1.3 bar)
12-09-2006, 04:31 PM
[XC] gomeler

Very interesting, I myself may have to look into an oxy-propane setup as I'd like to avoid the dangers of using acetylene. Apparently oxy-propane setups are within 300* Celsius of oxy-acetylene setups which is still hot enough to melt steel. Multi-purpose tools ftw. Excellent torch, hope it does the job.
12-09-2006, 04:54 PM
4Qman

Brett awsome mate. Glad you are getting some nice kit :toast:

Im tempted by this option now aswell,. I have a 19KG propance Cylinder not used and torch and Oxy Regulator,. Just need the Oxy and flashback arrestors and propane regulator. :cool:

I think ill be moving to this sooner than i thought. :) Superb setup
12-09-2006, 10:33 PM
m411b

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomeler

Very interesting, I myself may have to look into an oxy-propane setup as I'd like to avoid the dangers of using acetylene. Apparently oxy-propane setups are within 300* Celsius of oxy-acetylene setups which is still hot enough to melt steel. Multi-purpose tools ftw. Excellent torch, hope it does the job.

More worried about acetylene huh? Oxygen is alot more unstable then Acetylene.
12-09-2006, 11:11 PM
bazx

just great brett and all BOC parts:)

brazing with a no 5 nozzel well done that is one of the largest

i use a no 1 for genral brazing and no 3 for evaps/copper to tev and no 5 for making gates:D

but that is oxy/acet so may be differant
12-09-2006, 11:43 PM
wdrzal

Quote:

Originally Posted by M411b

More worried about acetylene huh? Oxygen is alot more unstable then Acetylene.

oxygen is just a oxidizer, it can't burn with out a fuel,so its not unstable at all in its pure form in side a tank. It is oxygen ability to oxidize a fuel that makes it dangerous.

its also the high pressure it's bottled at and that it readily combines with a fuel to make it burn rapidly is where the danger is. If you have proper equipment it is safe to use.

2 stage regulators are not needed ,I just took the opportunity to explain the difference.

The pressure you set the regulators at depends on the tip you are using & heat requirement. and whether you are brazing or have a combination torch that also has a cutting head. Cutting steel needs a higher O2 pressure than brazing.
12-10-2006, 12:11 AM
wdrzal

Brett on the tip you have I can't tell you what the pressures are but I can tell you what the flame should look like for brazing.

the pressures should be low enough so you don't have to much what is called "blow" to much force at the tip will push the filler away,a load flame is a charicteristic of blow.

Adjust the pressures till you have a soft quit flame that has a nice blue inner pinpoint, then back the O2 off with torch handle until inner pinpoint just start to "feather" the very least,you will see the blue inner point get a little wider and may have very small multi points. this is setting for least amount of blow for small diameter copper but still is hot. joining 3/8 to 3/8 copper with a swag joint should take no longer than 15 to 20 seconds to heat tube and apply filler. Be sure your copper is always clean.

large diameter over 1-1/2 inch will take a hotter flame , you will learn as you use the torch how muck heat is required for different metals.

that joint you brazed doesn't look quit hot enough but almost, you got to the rod too "solidus" temperature and not liquidus where it will flow readily. since the brass has more mass you need to add more heat there ,also to pull the filler in as filler flows towards the heat.

I just went back and looked and the gap is a little big for a rod flowing in liquiduis temperature. As you learn you will find some rods are good for filling large gaps like you had and some make it very hard,in generial the higher silver content rod won't fill gaps well ,filling that gap with 45% silver rods would be harder an require more skill than using 15% silver rods. you got if filled because you never heated the rod to liquidus temperatures ,where it flow like water. Soludis temperature is thick and lumpy in apearance and does not flow well. The 2 temperatures will be on the package the rods came in.
12-10-2006, 12:43 PM
Brettbeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoddemFX

Hi Brett,

Nice work. Good tools are great to have, brilliant to see your putting money to good use.

I dont know abut delivery pressures, but on that join it looks like you're getting it a tad too hot in places and not hot enough in others...?

On copper to brass you don't need the 45% rods, you can use standard 5-15% rods which are a lot cheaper :)

Yes - a realy good price! :D

Tom

Hehe don't worry, all this gear is 100% legal if that's what you're thinking :p:!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clemmaster

Don't know about oxy-propan but the best for oxy-acetylen is :

oxygen : 1.2 bar relative (2.2 bar)
Acetylene : 0.3 bar relative (1.3 bar)

Thanks :). I'll experiment over time and see if I can find an optimum for both gases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Qman

Brett awsome mate. Glad you are getting some nice kit :toast:

Im tempted by this option now aswell,. I have a 19KG propance Cylinder not used and torch and Oxy Regulator,. Just need the Oxy and flashback arrestors and propane regulator. :cool:

I think ill be moving to this sooner than i thought. :) Superb setup

Thanks mate :D. Lets see your torch and regulators from ebay in action soon :p:!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bazx

just great brett and all BOC parts:)

brazing with a no 5 nozzel well done that is one of the largest

i use a no 1 for genral brazing and no 3 for evaps/copper to tev and no 5 for making gates:D

but that is oxy/acet so may be differant

Cheers baz :). I think I need more experience before I go using smaller nozzles :p:. I found it quite easy with the number 5 on that quick joint, but I will play about with different nozzles when I have more things to braze :p:.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

Brett on the tip you have I can't tell you what the pressures are but I can tell you what the flame should look like for brazing.

the pressures should be low enough so you don't have to much what is called "blow" to much force at the tip will push the filler away,a load flame is a charicteristic of blow.

Adjust the pressures till you have a soft quit flame that has a nice blue inner pinpoint, then back the O2 off with torch handle until inner pinpoint just start to "feather" the very least,you will see the blue inner point get a little wider and may have very small multi points. this is setting for least amount of blow for small diameter copper but still is hot. joining 3/8 to 3/8 copper with a swag joint should take no longer than 15 to 20 seconds to heat tube and apply filler. Be sure your copper is always clean.

large diameter over 1-1/2 inch will take a hotter flame , you will learn as you use the torch how muck heat is required for different metals.

that joint you brazed doesn't look quit hot enough but almost, you got to the rod too "solidus" temperature and not liquidus where it will flow readily. since the brass has more mass you need to add more heat there ,also to pull the filler in as filler flows towards the heat.

I just went back and looked and the gap is a little big for a rod flowing in liquiduis temperature. As you learn you will find some rods are good for filling large gaps like you had and some make it very hard,in generial the higher silver content rod won't fill gaps well ,filling that gap with 45% silver rods would be harder an require more skill than using 15% silver rods. you got if filled because you never heated the rod to liquidus temperatures ,where it flow like water. Soludis temperature is thick and lumpy in apearance and does not flow well. The 2 temperatures will be on the package the rods came in.

Thanks Walt! This week I will braze the other two I have up, and I will try the 15% silver rods.
I have 2 types of flux though...the white powdery stuff and this other yellowy stuff which is like gunk, but is heat activated. Which do you think would be best to use?

I found on the front side the rod flowed like water, but on the other side it didn't flow as well, which then turned into a big lump which I had to heat up so it would flow round. That's probably why it looks a little bulky on that side :rolleyes: .
I think I wasn't adding enough heat to be honest, because I was trying to be careful as to not disintigrate the brass and copper :D. First time we switched the torch on, my dad held some 1/4" pipe in front of the flame for like 3 seconds and it turned into liquid almost instantly!
I just need to find more things to braze so I can get practicing :D.

I'll also get some goggles shortly as I haven't got any yet.
12-10-2006, 02:09 PM
Brettbeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by bazx

just great brett and all BOC parts:)

Yeah, forgot to mention actually. Just about all the parts are from BOC. They're awesome :D! IMO the best quality, price and service there is...
12-10-2006, 06:12 PM
wdrzal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett

Yeah, forgot to mention actually. Just about all the parts are from BOC. They're awesome :D! IMO the best quality, price and service there is...

Yep,if you buy a good name brand set of torches they will last a lifetime,as they are designed for industrial use where they get used sometime most of the time 3 shifts a day. And a good company & gas supplier will have any tip you need and O rings and other parts if you would ever need them.

ps: I see you have tanks on a cart,good idea to move them around, I also get a ABC rated fire extinguisher and mount it right on the cart, so if ever brazing ,gas welding or cutting and the Sparks catch something on fire you will have the ability to put it out quickly.

If you can knock a fire down in the first 30 to 60 seconds before it spreads its relatively easy.

and before lighting up look around for materials that may catch fire easily and especially gas can in the garage and move them.
12-12-2006, 08:59 AM
Brettbeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

ps: I see you have tanks on a cart,good idea to move them around, I also get a ABC rated fire extinguisher and mount it right on the cart, so if ever brazing ,gas welding or cutting and the Sparks catch something on fire you will have the ability to put it out quickly.

If you can knock a fire down in the first 30 to 60 seconds before it spreads its relatively easy.

and before lighting up look around for materials that may catch fire easily and especially gas can in the garage and move them.

Yeah the tanks are on a cart and it's much easier to move them around, although I don't really move them much. Having a fire extinguisher on the cart is a good idea too. I might invest in one, or maybe even a small tank of liquid co2 would work?
12-12-2006, 01:32 PM
wdrzal

Oh to your flux question, it obvious without seeing or reading the label I can't tell for sure,but the white flux will work on brass , steel and stainless steel and copper ,but copper to copper you really don't need flux.

The other one you describe sounds like flux/paste for soft solder.
12-12-2006, 02:42 PM
Brettbeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

Oh to your flux question, it obvious without seeing or reading the label I can't tell for sure,but the white flux will work on brass , steel and stainless steel and copper ,but copper to copper you really don't need flux.

The other one you describe sounds like flux/paste for soft solder.

I think you're right walt. I tried brazing another brass access valve to some 1/4" pipe with that flux and a 15% silver rod, and it was just a total mess.
I then did the same but with the white powder flux and the finish was much nicer. I couldn't get it as good as I did with the 45% silver rods, but nevermind.

I've dropped off the bottle pressures now. So currently i'm using about 1.6bar on the propane and a fraction over 1bar on the oxygen :D. And the valves on the torch aren't even fully open either :p:!

Earlier I also brazed a piece of sold steel to some 3/8" pipe. I used the 45% silver rods and a small amount of flux...this was the end result. Not perfect but i'm only practicing :D.

http://www.justmyluck.f9.co.uk/Brett...d/IMG_2443.JPG

Workbench;
http://www.justmyluck.f9.co.uk/Brett...d/IMG_2441.JPG

I was amazed earlier when I was brazing the access valves up. Even though the brass fitting was clamped in a vice, the torch still managed to almost melt the brass within under 5 seconds it was that hot!!
12-12-2006, 11:42 PM
johann

Hey Brett, nice progress from the early days :D

One thing I noticed, on this last joint, it doesnt seem like the evap was quite warm enough there. try making it a little warmer and see if the silver flows nicely.

What flux are you using, it seems the flux isnt really working that well?

I discovered a flux after struggling and since then no looking back, if you want I can send you a little sample of it to try.
12-13-2006, 12:05 AM
wdrzal

you can see on the left side the filler flowed into the steel on the right it just puddled on top, that was from lack of heat. You need to learn how to move the torch around to get even heating then apply the rod after the whole joint is the correct temperature, this is the art of brazing ,recognizing the color that is the correct temperature for the rod to flow. each metal is different. You won't master it in a day. but you are doing well.

That big hunk of steel will steal much more heat ,so you need to direct 80 to 90 percent of the heat into the thick metal, the trick is to bring both ,the thin tube and thick steel to the same,correct temperature at exactly the same time.

ps I would move that battery the hydrosulfuric acid fumes can be deadly and explosive is to much heat is sent that way. sometime whem your inspecting your work not relizing where your pointing the torchor where the heat is going.

Also the fumes of galvanized metal is also deadly,grind coating away before brazing.
12-13-2006, 02:16 AM
4Qman

This is a great Thread, great input :toast:

Practice makes perfect Brett, progressing great tho dude
12-13-2006, 01:33 PM
Brettbeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by johann

Hey Brett, nice progress from the early days :D

One thing I noticed, on this last joint, it doesnt seem like the evap was quite warm enough there. try making it a little warmer and see if the silver flows nicely.

What flux are you using, it seems the flux isnt really working that well?

I discovered a flux after struggling and since then no looking back, if you want I can send you a little sample of it to try.

Thanks mate :).

I don't think the evap was quite warm enough, on the back side especially. But I don't think it was bad to say that it was solid steel and the vice was also taking loads of heat too. I also didn't use a great deal of flux. I got it with a few rods I got from eBay :).
If I need any flux though i'll let you know for sure :D.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

you can see on the left side the filler flowed into the steel on the right it just puddled on top, that was from lack of heat. You need to learn how to move the torch around to get even heating then apply the rod after the whole joint is the correct temperature, this is the art of brazing ,recognizing the color that is the correct temperature for the rod to flow. each metal is different. You won't master it in a day. but you are doing well.

That big hunk of steel will steal much more heat ,so you need to direct 80 to 90 percent of the heat into the thick metal, the trick is to bring both ,the thin tube and thick steel to the same,correct temperature at exactly the same time.

ps I would move that battery the hydrosulfuric acid fumes can be deadly and explosive is to much heat is sent that way. sometime whem your inspecting your work not relizing where your pointing the torchor where the heat is going.

Also the fumes of galvanized metal is also deadly,grind coating away before brazing.

Thanks walt. Yea you're right, there was not enough heat round that side, which was because it was the back side. I was concerntrating a little too much heat on the front side I think :rolleyes: .
And yea the steel will have been taking loads of heat, along with that big vice I had it sitting on. I found on the front side of the steel that the rod flowed like water...I just needed to give the back a little more heat, and the finish would have been much neater.

I have been pm'ed about that battery too :). It will definitly be moved before I braze again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Qman

This is a great Thread, great input :toast:

Practice makes perfect Brett, progressing great tho dude

Cheers Dave :D. Practice does of course make perfect, and thats what I need :). I'm just trying to find more things to braze every day now LOL :p:!