How many are using a 20 pin power supply? Have any of you had damage and what were your setting if you have had damage? How many are running just fine?
How many are using a 20 pin power supply? Have any of you had damage and what were your setting if you have had damage? How many are running just fine?
I have an Ultra-D and a 20pin PSU. Running for some weeks with no probs, with 3500+ @ 3100Mhzs, rock stable.
Ultra-D here... I've been using two 20-pin PSUs with it so far: Fortron 530W and PC P&C 510W Deluxe... No stability issues whatsoever, running Winnie 2900MHz @ 1.85vcore/3.6-3.8vdimm
But I need to add, that I do not have any PCIe video card since I got it, about 2 months now :) I don't think it would matter that much in non-SLi configuration.
you really should not be using a 20pin DFI adamently suggests that you do not use adapters...
I was using an antec 380w before switching to the fortron. Ran 3.4v-3.5v vdimm with it also. Never really had any problems. I did see some voltage fluctuation under load, so that's why I got the fortron. No fluctuation now, but it didn't help me overclock any higher either.
Tested pcp&c 510w , Chieftec 360W and Enermax 550W, all 20pins..
No stability problems..
running 4000+ @ 2700MHz 1.64v and 3.6+vdimm
Please keep them comming. The reason is there has been a post on DFIstreet about running a 20 pin and damage done to memory. I have not seen this and would like to get as much feedback as possible. I am runing a 20 pin 600watt Enermax 36 amps on all rails. very stable and no problems. Have not realy started to heavy OC but running very stable at 2750 MHz.
Sounds like BS, or some fluke accident.
I run an old Enermax 365 350W PSU (18A@+12V), 20 pin (+ separate 4 pin) just fine. 1.5V CPU, 3.1V RAM.
Will it does not make that much sence to me other than a cheap 20 pin. I mean my 600 watt Enermax has more amps and power on any line than most if not all 24 pin power supplies do! I would like to use the 5v jumper to use more vdimm but this got me a tad nervous yet I dont know why??
Not sure about the damage claim...that doesn't sound logical at all.
But, when it comes to stability at the high end, especially with SLI, a quality 24 pin PSU will get you further. That's already been proven countless times.
u dont need an adapter, a 20 pin plugs are backwards compatible with 24pin. I really dont get why the extra 4 pins are so important if one already has a nice powersupply. For ex if someone has a pcpower and cooling 510 deluxe why wouldnt it work even if it didnt have the extra 4 pins :confused: if u plug in all the extra connectors dfi has on the mobo wouldnt that make up for the loss of the 4 pins if the 4 pins are necessary? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by sluflyer06
Nope. I gained a significant level of stable overclockability when I moved from the PCP&C 510 to the PCP&C 510 SLI. Pretty much the same PSU except for the 4 pins. I picked up not only max CPU OC, but GPU OC as well. I discussed these results with Vivian at DFI and who concurred that a solid 24 pin PSU would yield the best overclocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by P_1
Now, to qualify this, this was on my rig that had 2 6800U in SLI and an FX55 at 3.3Ghz that topped the ORB in February. So max clean power was key. Systems with less demand can get away with less PSU.
All this aside, DFI themselves STRONGLY recommend the 24 pin PSU. So, although its not a must, users who are maxmizing a high end rig may be leaving performance on the table.
Like I said in previous post, I ran 3.4v and 3.5v for over 2weeks 24/7 without any trouble. You have a much better psu than I was using, I would switch that jumper now :DQuote:
Originally Posted by thesaucier
I have SLI-D and Antec TC550 20pin, no Problem happened ^^
How are you guys powering the PCI-E slots? Directly to the card? My card doesnt have a power connector ... I guess that means I need a 24PIN psu to power it?
Will this is good to hear and what I suspected as well. How many are running with the 5v jumper?
See my setup in the sig. Using a 20 pin with the 24 pin adapter. Will be getting a 2nd GT as soon as I can find where to buy a bridge. Guessing I'll have to upgrade my PS when I do, but I'll try to make my SilenX work.
Will this is very strange. :confused: Seems the post that was warning about using a 20 pin and damage to the memory that was a sticky on the DFIstreet forum was removed? :rolleyes: Not sure why but seems strange. I did ask as several others did to give more detail and we got no further responce plus they pulled the sticky off. So I dont know. The more info here the better however! :fact:
Ok so I had the OCZ 600w coming for my DFI Ultra-D...now was that a bad idea?
There are some solution, a convertial cable, some modding or another 24 pin cheapy PSU just for the vga ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens
I use my old trusty Antec 480 on the DFI ULRA D
The OCZ PowerStream 600W is a 24-pin PSU. You'll be fine. :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner
http://forums.anandtech.com/messagev...&enterthread=y
Hope that helps =)
Ahh cool...I was under the impression it was a 20-pin but never bothered to look into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by conrad.maranan
It's both: BTX 24-Pin and ATX 20-Pin. The extra 4-Pin cable snaps/slides onto the 20-Pin cable. :) Technically, it's still a 20-Pin PSU. You should still be fine, though.
These thread’s are still up @ DFI Street as of May 4, 2005 @ 12.42AM Pacific TimeQuote:
Originally Posted by thesaucier
http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/show...2&postcount=34
http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10854
This is a Quote from Angry Games @ DFI Street:
(you are on your own when using a 20-pin power supply.
DFI no longer will support customers who do not adhere to the minimum power supply requirements.
if the board has a 24-pin power connector, then you must have a true 24-pin power supply.
not a 20-to-24 pin adapter
not a 5,000,323watt 20-pin with 80000 amps on the 12v rail
a true 24-pin native power supply.
period.
there is no argument anymore on this subject.
if the board has a 24-pin power connector, and we state (as we have) that you need a true 24-pin power supply and that a 20-to-24 pin adapter does not work and is not supported, then you need a true native 24-pin power supply.
no arguments
no trying to tell us we dont know what we are talking about.
period
you only have a 20-pin psu? a modded 20-pin psu? a 20-pin psu with a 24-pin adapter?
you are not adhering to the minimim specs required by these boards to run. this means that any problems you have while not adhering to the minimum requirements will result in you being told 'you need a 24-pin native power supply of at least 480w' and that is the only answer you will receive on your problem until you meet the minimum requirements.
sounds harsh?
we don't tell you to put a 24-pin power supply in just to make you angry and see you complain about how you have to upgrade your power supply.
we tell you that you are required to have a 24-pin 480w power supply because that is what is necessary.
if you want to argue about it, by all means continue arguing about it.
but you are not meeting minimum requirements and will not get any answer other than 'you MUST have a 24-pin native 480w power supply to run these motherboards and that is your problem so please upgrade to a minimum 480w 24-pin power supply'
not much else to say on this subject.
i'm tired of some of you who think you know more than our engineers continuing to argue that we have no clue what we are talking about and you can skirt the minimum requirements.
follow the recommended guidelines.
period).
I wonder if Angry_Games was smiling while he was typing that. :D
I bet he was smiling:D
Good artical! They mention the 20 to 24 pin adapter causing alot of heat at the adapter itself. Mine is cold as ice. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by dmo580
I own an Ultra-D
I have an Enermax 470W 20-pin, running the system on the signature
Now slightly overclocked to @2250
Was using an Enermax 460w 20 pin PSU with 33amps on all rails but listened to advice & got OCZ 520w PowerStream which didn't do SQUAT!!!
Well, I'm exagerating a bit as I was able to run 11x220HTT with my 2x256MB BH5 whereas before my rig would turn off when I set it to 11x205HTT...
Although I can run 11x220HTT with tight as timings in Memtest for 44 hours or 254 standard tests, Windows keeps on rebooting, BSODing or turning off on me when idling or if running Prime95...
So, overall I reckon it was a waste of money switching to a 24pin PSU...
Minh
DFI says not to use adapters? My thermaltake 560w came with a 20pin to 24pin adapter, figured that'd be just as good, but I don't even have a DFI board, my friend however does have the Ultra-D board with 1gb of kingston hyper X not OC'd and a 3000+ Winnie running stock with a X800XL and he's using a 20pin and hasn't had a problem yet. He doesn't even have the floppy connector right above the top PCI-E slot plugged in but I figured it'd mainly matter if you were running SLI'd cards. The X800XL doesn't even have a power connector to it like most of these newer cards
:rolleyes:
Was that directed at me by any chance??Quote:
Originally Posted by thesaucier
Minh
D20Ls fine :D
Moving SD 3700 in tomorrow to see if all the bells and whistles help (OCZ PSU + WC) :shrug:
Im running the system in my sig with an antec truepower 460 with no problem.
Yea I read that anantech thread and it didn't talk about not having a power connector on the PSU.
I guess I can't cancel my order for my 24pin PSU then :-( oh well.
So to me, its "not" a 24-pin PSU then...hopefully it doesn't blow up like DFI says :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by conrad.maranan
No not at all. I was going to say how rude and juvenile the post that Angry Games @ DFI Street made was but then I thought I would just let it go! After all he is just a kid! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnyboy
Running my NF4 Ultra with a 20-pin Enhance 460w psu....A64 3000+ SPAW at 2700mhz, no issues whatsoever:)
Honestly, I think that AndyOCZ was mistaken about atributing failure of those OCZ EB sticks to the PSU, only because it had 20-pin connector. And that resulted in "sort of" too harsh response from Angry Games, in my opinion.
The only difference between 20-pin and 24-pin is four more wires, that's it. Those wires come out from the same "pack" that the rest of 3.3v/5v/12v. They don't have some separate circuit that they're part of.
Look at the pics I attached. This is the inside of 24-pin PSU. You might notice there are some separate wires soldered to the board, though. Don't get too excited :) They are for SATA connector :)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=29763&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=29764&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=29765&stc=1
The whole issue with PSUs for NF4 boards is not the 24-pin that is needed but a solid, high wattage PSU with about 30A on 12v rail.
EDIT: I also think, that there was a good reason behind putting additional molex and FDD connectors on the board. Maybe DFI put it there in case some folks would not like to switch to 24-pin too fast and still use their 20-pin PSUs? I would think so, as ATX 2.0 was bought up for PCIe support. So even If one has GOOD 20-pin PSU, he could still use it with PCIe video card. To be safe, just plug extra molex connector into the board and voila! This would provide additional juice for PCIe slot, instead of those extra 4 pins... THat's just my thought, though... :)
This is just what I was looking for soom good inside pics of a 24 pin power supply!! Hey wait, that is a 20 pin power supply with a 4 pin is it not?? This board uses a 24 pin and a 4 pin and a molex as well as floppy conections.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
That's 24-pin PSU with 4 pin connector that you can detach from the rest ;) In case you still have a 20-pin mobo .
Will thats great! Thats the clearest evidence I have seen yet. Thanks for the pics! :clap: What power supply is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
This is ATX2.0 compliant Allied 450W 24-pin w/ SATA connector. Very cheap PSU, but still capable of powering my everyday "internet" rig: AXP-M @ 2.7GHz 2.15vcore/3.5vdimm + 2 HDDs + 2 optical drives + flash card reader :D
I would not use it for DFI NF4 board, though. Too weak on amps on 12v rail for my taste ;)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=29773&stc=1
I'm pretty sure that other 24-pin PSU are "refreshed" in the same way. I would love to see some guts of OCZ's or PCP&C's 24-pin PSUs, though ;)
I've been using my old PC power & cooling 425w deluxe with a 20 to 24 pin adapter and have had no problems yet. But I do plan on upgrading to a larger 24 pin for Sli someday, I just dont have the extra cash right now.
My rig runs just fine with the 20 pin / 24 pin adapter. As soon as I can find an SLI bridge to buy I'll get my 2nd 6800 GT and try to run SLI. I am guessing that will be the straw that breaks my SilenX's back. I almost expect it to be unstable / not boot and be forced to get a noisy PCP&C 510 SLI. Is anyone running SLI with 6800 GT's / Ultras with a 24 pin adapter?Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
So I can provide power to PCI-E with the molex plug w/o needing a 24 pin PSU??Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I have a Enermax 365 psu and my g-card is just a 6600GT so that should provide enough without needing a new PSU right??
I'm using an Enermax Coolergiant 480W 20pins PSU with a DFI NF4 SLI and a 6800GT, any problems by now... (3 weeks 24/7 at 270x10 1'5V).
Could I try to set the jumper to 5V? I have a pair of mushkin level II waiting for some voltage... they are at only 240 2-2-2 at 3'1V (3'15v real), i need pooooower!!!!
No, 20 pin is just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens
I also have the Enermax 365, a 350W PSU with 18A on the +12V, I have an X800XL 256M, Winchester 3000+ clocked 250 MHz (2250 MHz) at 1.5 V and 1 GB RAM at 3.1 V, no sweat at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens
W00t! Just tried the 4V jumper and it is working :) 3'45V seems stable by now. I should put an aditional fan to the mosfets, true?
Added a fan, pushed to 3'7v.... and voilá! :D
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=16110
Doing a bit better at 2900 MHz! Very stable. :clap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pjotr
Do you have power going into the card? My BFG has no on board connector. Will plugging a molex into the MB suffice?
Where ever there is a place to plug power I use it! :D
No, it doesn't have it. nVidia boards are more power hungry. If the graphics card has a molex connector, yes, use it!Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens
Yeah, you have a point there mate, and I tried talking on dfi-street.com about this subject, but they give no chance at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Many PSU manufacturers are doing refreshed versions of their 1.3 ATX PSUs just with the extra 4 wires and the PCI-Express connector, to meet the "new" standard.
I agree a good PSU, even 20-pin, if it meets the power requirements in each line, you should have no problems. The extra 4 wires wont give any extra power, they are phisically, eletricaly connected together, in paralell.
My PSU, i.e, there is a "new" model ATX 2.0 compliant, guess what, its the same thing with the PCI-e connector + the 4 extra wires.
The reason to have 4 more wires is to match a standard, and I believe there is much theorectical stuff about how much current each wire can take, but in normal situations no wire would exceed it capacity, so the extra 4 wires are just useless.
As a matter of fact, I tried my self connecting an adapter, and the voltages are absolutelly the same, the wires dont get hot.
To all on this thread:
I don't think I've ever seen the kind of "self justification" that appears on this thread anywhere else. Its shocking to see how hard everyone wants to debunk or disprove the need to use a 24 pin pin PSU with the DFI mobo even though the manufacturer clearly requires it!
Angry Games may have been a bit nasty on his post, but I can certainly understand why. He also has to watch all this nonsense posted about why a 24 pin PSU is not needed. It must be frustrating for him.
If DFI calls for a 24 pin PSU requirement, well, there it is folks. Simple as that. I've never spoken with anyone on DFI Street, but I have had plenty of conversations with the folks at DFI. The 24 pin requirement is an engineering mandate pure and simple. So, either use what's required, or you will get ZERO support.
What many of you are failing to understand is that for every person on here that claims to have a 20 pin PSU "working fine," there is someone else out there with troubles that are caused by the use of a 20 pin PSU.
DFI has the requirement for a reason. Abide by it for best results, or skimp and face the possbility of PSU related issues. Its that simple. Its not a black or white issue that 24 pins work, while 20 pins do not. Its simply an unsupported configuration using a 20 pin.
Finally, I understand where DFI Street is coming from on another related note. I've completely given up on answering ANY DFI trouble posts from users with 20 pin PSUs. Its simply a waste of my time. In the first few weeks alone after the DFI NF4 arrived I had seen dozens of problems cured by going to the required PSU. But, months later now, there is no excuse when the common knowledge is out there. Don't get me wrong, sometimes its not the PSU causing the problems. But, when you are trouble shooting, there is nothing more frustrating than a user who refused to use the required supporting components. It utterly kills the process of elimination.
So, if you are using a 20 pin PSU without issue, good for you and congrats. But, if you are having stability issues with your DFI NF4 the FIRST thing to determine is that you are running the required PSU. If you wish to ignore the requirement when you are having problems, than you are only getting what you asked for.
@mdzcpa,
For the most part I would agree with what you say...
If I were building totally new rig from a scratch, then I would definetely buy 24-pin PSU, like PC P&C SLI or OCZ Powerstream. But some folks here, including myself, still have great PSUs from previous builds, e.g. PC P&C Deluxe 510W or even Fortron 530W (some might not disagree with me on that, I'm sure). That is additional $100-200 savings in your pocket.
Every mobo manufacturer will tell you same thing: It is recomended/required to use 24-pin PSU with ANY PCIe mainboard. Why? Because ATX2.01 standard is mainly all about:
1. Extra four pins (3.3v/5v/12v/GROUND). This is replacing 6-pin AUXliary connector that still exists in some of the PSUs, that was required on some (mostly) Intel boards and which purpose was to supply extra juice for AGP slot. Extra pins are to supply mainboard with enough current to power up PCIe port (75W requirement per PCIe specifications).
2. Providing more than 18A on 12v rail by either raising amperage on one rail or adding second rail for that purpose.
So, If one has strong, great performing 20-pin PSU that outputs min. 30A on 12v then I strongly believe one should have no problems with running NF4 mobo.
Considering, that all power hungry PCIe video cards use additional power connector, it makes it even easier for people with 20-pin supplies to stay with it until they make bigger upgrade.
What, in your opinion, are those xtra molex and FDD connectors onboard for??? Doesn't that give you any hint? It gives me on... I wrote about it some post above.
Also, honestly I think that AndyOCZ was wrong with his justification for 20-pin causing damage to memory sticks. If the guy has some super crappy PSU, then I could discuss that further, but damaged due to 20-pin PSU... Come on, gimme a break :)
Concluding... Get 24-pin PSU if you have money or building new rig from the scratch. But if on the tight budget but with excellent 20-pin PSU from previous built, it should make no harm.
I will swallow that if my 20-pin PC P&C or Fortron 530W burns any of the components... But I kind of don't see it happening :)
regards,
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdzcpa
I would agree with you 100% I also think if you are having stability issues or any issues and have a 20 pin it would be right on top of the list to get a 24 pin power supply. In fact it still is even with no issues. But untill then I will run with no problems. I wanted to see how many others had no problems and also hear from any that had hardware damage from running a 20 pin.
I also know that AMD will only warrenty there cpu if it has there fan and heatsink on it! Will not many of us use there cooling. If you had a ATI x800pro you should never flash to a ati x800 xt platinum bios but! You Should never unlock the multi on the XPs! Shall I go on??
If I was doing trouble shooting with these boards I would most likley say the same thing however with a bit more respect for my customers but thats a diffrent issue. I wanted feedback from users!
I completely agree :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I just wanted to add this has NOTHING to do with Angry Games post. I would have the same policy if I were working for DFI.
But we all know we do things here that are not always the manufactures best wishes. I posted here because the discussion was no longer allowed there. I have been a mod at ABIT and I totaly understand that. Nothing against DFI or thier forum! I also know that many 20 pins dont have the guts to run this board. What concerned me the most was a post about damage to the memory or CPU if a 20 pin was used. It did not make sence so I came here! :cool:
Although I do not dispute your fine analysis of the new ATX spec, suffice it to say that my opinion is based soley on what DFI told me about the board when I was acquiring a review sample, AND what they further told me after I had a board of my own and was analyzing how it reacted with various PSUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Not only do you have to take into account what the differences are in the ATX spec, but you must also take into account how the DFI board itself specifically handles the power supply. Trace lengths, capacitance, and voltage regulation on that board is optimised for a 24 pin PSU. I'm not an electrical engineer so I can only repeat what I have heard.
But, I will make one thing clear, the requirement for 24 pin PSU is an engineering requirement based not only on the new spec, but on actual board design as well.
Again, we're not talking about a fixed pass/fail issue here. We are talking about optimal configuration. The board was designed to work best with the 24 pin PSU and it goes beyond rail amperage and wattage.
Although I can only rely on what the DFI folks have told me, I do know that they are VERY adament about it. They have no motivation whatsoever to lie about it. Obviously a new PSU requirement hurt sales, not help. Think about it.
Power delivery and trace length...period. When running significant CPU and PCI-E slot power hungry components, the connections provided a cleaner localized power source. Nothing more, nothing less.Quote:
What, in your opinion, are those xtra molex and FDD connectors onboard for???
Per DFI, these connections have nothing to do with supplementing 20 pin PSUs. Its about trace length.
Quote:
Also, honestly I think that AndyOCZ was wrong with his justification for 20-pin causing damage to memory sticks. If the guy has some super crappy PSU, then I could discuss that further, but damaged due to 20-pin PSU... Come on, gimme a break :)
I whole heartedly agree. I completely discount any theory that damage would result from the use of a 20 pin PSU. The only issue is potential instability with crappy 20 pin PSUs, or stability issues when the mobo is loaded out with Ultra's in SLI, fan headers used, PCI slots used, etc.
Quote:
Concluding... Get 24-pin PSU if you have money or building new rig from the scratch. But if on the tight budget but with excellent 20-pin PSU from previous built, it should make no harm.
No harm...agreed. But you might be leaving some overclocking stability on the table depending on the configuration. Your BEST chance for max performance is with 24 pins....per DFI themselves.
I certainly do not condone Angry Games' tone of that post. I only understand the frustration. After speaking directly with DFI many times on this issue, I was told by a rep that thier support crew is just tired of "fighting" customers who claim to have stability issues but refuse to get a new PSU.Quote:
Originally Posted by thesaucier
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesaucier
I think your post is great and this topic needs to be aired out for all to see. I also think DFI Street is making a mistake by being so negative about it.
But, the bottom line is the the manufacturer spec calls for a 24 pin PSU....period. So, you either run what's required, or you are on your own. DFI Street needs to just keep explaining that. They are in the customer service business so that's just the way it is.
Your post here is appreciated !
24pin psu out of the box and this ultra-d never fail to run @ extreme oc or stock :toast:
I also absolutely understand where DFI is coming from.
Lots of users not really knowing what they're doing, buying low quality, low wattage PSUs, trying to run 2 Ultras in SLI and crying because their DFI NF4 board is not stable @ 2.7GHz and DDR600 :rolleyes:. I would be fed up with them too :lol:
I just decided to add my :2cents: after I read that thread on DFI Street, with the all "histeria" started by AndyOCZ, then closed by Angry Games' a bit too harsh voice of frustration.
Anyway, it's always great to read your wise advice Mike :toast:
I got too admit I know how frustating things can get. I feel for them! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I've accepted the fact that I will likely have to get a new PS when I add my 2nd 6800 GT. But just as it was posted earlier - I have a 450W SilenX PS that I simply love! It is dead silent and it runs like a champ with everything in my sig. I will plug that 2nd card in and cross my fingers - but at the first hiccup I'll order the PCP&C 510 Sli and some earplugs. I'd still like to know if anyone is running SLI / 6800 GT's and a ~450W PS with a 24 pin adapter. :(
Thank you sir, just trying to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I'm no DFI cheerleader or anything, I just know that of all the vendors I have dealt with over the years when it comes down to answering tough questions on review product, the folks at DFI have consistently been very forthcoming and helpful.
I also wouldn't advise anyone to junk a perfectly good high quality 20 pin PSU either. I'd say "try it out" and see what happens. If overclocking goals are reached and the system is stable...all is well. Its only time to jump to the 24 if your pushing the envelope or have other stability issues with the 20 pin. So your advice is also right on target :toast:
I am using 20-pin Antec TrueControl 550. See my results in San Diego OC thread.
Many many great 24pin PSU's are just 20pin + extra 4 pins added from the same lines, just as bachus_anonym and some others already said. This applies to the PCP&C 510W SLI as well (notice that PCP&C will rewire your existing 20pin PSU (vanilla 510W for example) to a 510W SLI model for a $50 charge), which indicates the PSU doesn't actually conform with the ATX2.0 standard (dfi-street.com had a hefty discussion on that "conforms" or "is compliant" stuff as well). Yet it is even in the nVidia SLI certified list.
Or take the OCZ Powerstream 520W which is not an ATX2.0 PSU as well but is considered to be a fine PSU to run with DFI. This leads me to believe that the "absolute must of a 24pin" is a bit too harsh stressed because I've not seen any documented explanation whether such a 24pin PSU (which is essentially a 20pin one) is worse than a 24pin ATX2.0 PSU with split +12v rails when used with the DFI motherboard. The dfi-street.com guys for the most part have avoided this discussion by simply using their main weapon "24pin PSU is a must" to bring down any questions on this subject (but I understand the behaviour if a user with a crappy 350W 20pin asks "why do I have trouble"?) However, if it is the case that many "24pin" PSU's are considered to be fine, this means a quality 20pin PSU should work without any problems except maybe the most extreme cases where the PSU complete power itself would be challenged (and I don't see 300htt or 2.6 Ghz CPU as an extreme overclock especially if you're not running SLI).
So this comes down to trying and isolating the cause of instabilities, and if they persist (by swapping memory, cpu's, maybe even motherboards), it's worth looking into your quality 20pin PSU direction, just as mdzcpa said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlobber
This is what I thought as well. Will it good to get this feedback. Next stop 3.4 vdimm! :clap:
3.3GHz SP8M stable and 3GHz StressPrime2004 stable 2h with 20pin Antec TC, nothing difference with 24pin PSU ;)
A64 3500+ 130nm CAA2C Cpu and VapoChill LS
Not going to single out posts... just add my pennies to the pile :)
1) A 24-pin PS that has seperate wires going all the way back to the PCB in the PS IS a 24-pin PS. It is not a "re-treaded 20-pin supply".
2) On the issue of seperate +12V rails - this is about compliance with certain governmental regulations in various locals and has nothing to do with a PS being a 24-pin PS nor with it meeting the requirements of a ATX 2.0x supply.
3) The extra 4 pins on a 24-pin PS is not just about current carrying capabilities and/or extra pins. It also involves issues of parasitics in the power distribution system for your MB and add-in cards... including IR drop, inductance, frequency response, and noise. It also has to do with compliance to the ATX 2.x specs. And it requires seperate connections all the way back to the PS.
4) Based upon my own design experience, there are valid reasons why DFI is requiring true 24-pin PS's. See comment 3.
5) It is possible with a good 20-pin PS to create the equivalent of a 24-pin PS using a 24 to 20 pin adapater - it's done by cutting the wires between the extra four pins of the adapter at the point they join the standard 20-pin power pins and connecting the now unconnected 4 extra pins' wires all the way back to the PS's PWB with their own seperate wires. One way to do this is to use one of the SATA power connectors, which has all 4 required connections (+5,+12,+3.3,Gnd) and seperate wires all the way back.
6) I initially ran my DFI NF4 with a 20-pin PCPnC 450ATX supply without any problems on my bench (although in a stripped system configuration). But... it did hinder the performance. Whether or not a 20-pin PSU can work depends on the PS, what other components are in the system, and how close to the edge you intend to push your system.
So in regards to can you use a 20-pin PSU... given certain conditions, yes. Will it provide you with the most stable, overclockable system without at least modification as discussed in comment 5....NO. Does DFI know what it's talking about making a 24-pin PS a requirement...YES! For much the same reasons, plugging the extra MB power connectors into your PS is also recommended.
By way of a recent experience (one of many, many, many dealing with power and power distribution issues I've seen), maybe you'll understand DFI's stance on this issue....
On a project I'm working on at work, we had performed exhaustive testing on some new hardware and it had performed flawlessly in our development test environment. When we did a manufacturing run of the item in question, they were "failing" during manufacturing testing. I ended up during a 72 hour period, with only two 3 hour stints of sleep intermixed, in the manufacturing facility tracking down WTH was going on (and then lending a helping hand to testing to meet our deadline). To make a long story shorter, the problem ended up being someone who thought they could disregard the guidelines I had given regarding the power distribution in the test setup and used single wire connections between the test station power supplies and the test adapter for power distribution, along with improper power distribution inside the test adapter. The net result was perfectly good products with excellent margins "failing" test and my aforementioned grueling 3 days isolating, identifying, proving, and fixing the test setup they were using so that it conformed to the initially stated requirements. Afterwards the batch of product passed all testing with flying colors and substantial margins and are now being happily used by the customer :D
Oh... one last comment... it is *possible* under certain conditions for what the OCZ rep said to occur...
I knew you will sooner or later find this thread, Daniel :D I literally was just waiting for you to step up as soon as I found that you posted few comments today :lol:
As I will not argue on what you say here (not even cloooooose in knowledge on that matter as you are), but you have to admit one thing....
There is just a whole bunch of folks running even SLi systems on DFI with 20-pin PSUs. Even one buddy of mine runs water-cooled, OCed up his &%$ 2x6600GT cards, with Winnie @ 2800MHz, couple HDDs, DVD-ROM and CD-burner... All with 480W 20-pin Antec, but with all connectors plugged-in to the mobo.
Like I said, I would gladly get 24-pin PCP&C like the one you previewed (excellent info there!!!) but as of now I just cannot justify that as of yet. I might swallow what I just said, after I kill sth, but I would not jump the conclusion so quickly attributing it to 20-pin ;)
Great to see you dropping by here with some great input :thumbsup: Thanks!
You voyeur you :p: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Not a matter of finding per say... been busy and not around here... have some time today in between other things ;)
...nothing wrong with discussing things :)Quote:
As I will not argue on what you say here (not even cloooooose in knowledge on that matter as you are),
See my comment 6, along with 1st & last sentence of the paragraph which followed ;)Quote:
but you have to admit one thing....
There is just a whole bunch of folks running even SLi systems on DFI with 20-pin PSUs. Even one buddy of mine runs water-cooled, OCed up his &%$ 2x6600GT cards, with Winnie @ 2800MHz, couple HDDs, DVD-ROM and CD-burner... All with 480W 20-pin Antec, but with all connectors plugged-in to the mobo.
Now, now, quit brown-nosing... :kissbutt: <--- Bachus :p:Quote:
Like I said, I would gladly get 24-pin PCP&C like the one you previewed (excellent info there!!!)
:rofl:
You could take comment 5 under consideration ;)
Don't worry bro, I never jump to conclusions... notice I simply commented it was possible ;) Not enough info of the specific case to even hazard an estimate of probability.Quote:
but as of now I just cannot justify that as of yet. I might swallow what I just said, after I kill sth, but I would not jump the conclusion so quickly attributing it to 20-pin ;)
You're welcome :D Had to have my XS fix... was having withdrawal symptoms :ROTF:Quote:
Great to see you dropping by here with some great input :thumbsup: Thanks!
I see that you have all our emoticons figured out here :ROTF:
You see what you did now... I just grabbed some tools and started an autopsy on that 24-pin PSU I got...
I need to get better in that field, electronics I mean :D
Ok, I dont understand much about electronics
But in the DFI LP UT NF4 Ultra-D motherboard, the connections between the +12V, +5V, +3.3V and Ground are phisically connected to the other regular 12V input, 5V input, etc
So, if there is a short circuit between this lines in the motherboard itself, how would a 24 pin PSU act different, you would cause a short circuit between the first 12V line, and the other 12V line?
If you understand what I asked, please try to clarify, because I didn't understand. I expected the extra 4 pins were unconnected from the other same lines in the board layout.
Let me try a simple answer: No, they are absolutely NOT short circuited.
They are kept separate because they feed different parts of all the electronics on the motherboard. However, the PSU itself can often draw the power from the same source for the different feeds. A budget PSU will draw all lines form the same power source, meaning if you load the +12V rail, you have less available for +3.3 and +5. On a high end PSU, they are all from different sources. This means multiple power sources in the PSU and hence a higher cost.
This also means there is a very big difference from a budget 600 W PSU and a high end 600 W PSU. Often a high end 300 W PSU will be able to power more equipment stable than a budget 450 W PSU.
Well man, so my multimeter may be defective because if I disconnect all power connectors and try only the motherboard, there is contact between the 12V connector of the "regular" 20 pins and the 12V connector of the "extra" 4 pins.
Correct :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Krohling
No, I am aware of no PS's which have seperate output rails for the extra 4 connections of a 24-pin connector.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krohling
First an observation - just because different connections are electrically the same (read basically short across a conventional DMM), does not mean that they are all tied into the same power planes, and in fact could be tied to seperate planes that are only referenced together through a single via or trace (don't know if this is the case in the DFI Nf4 or not for any of the rails).
But... the difference is as a result of what I previously commented on - it deals with IR drops, trace inductance, frequency response (yes, power distribution systems have frequency response components), and noise issues - also known as the real world of electronics and parasitic reactances.
To give an example of how it likely could make a difference in the specific case of the DFI motherboard....
Present day CPUs and memory and GPUs all have very high transient current requirements (i.e. the current they require can change quite rapidly by a considerable amount in very short time frames measured in milli-seconds and even micro and nano-seconds). Up to a limit, determined by the amount and quality of the decoupling of the power locally (i.e. on the MB, DIMM, or Gfx card), this can cause a drop in the supply rails under certain conditions.
Normally the local decoupling (provided by capacitors, which store charge and resist changes to voltage caused by changing current demands) handles these temporary requirements.... BUT... there is a limit after which they "run out of charge" and can no longer supply the extra power being demanded. At that point, the supply rail starts dropping rather rapidly - not a good thing at all. To prevent this occurence, there must exist the capability to supply more current from the power supply before the capacitors stop compensating for the increased current demand. This is where that 24-pin connector (and the type of wiring used between it and the PS) can make a big difference.
Each wire between the power supply and the MB has inherent parasitic values - it isn't a 0 ohm, 0 inductance connection. The first of these is resistance. If the resistance is too high, the increased temporary current demand can cause a drop in the input voltage being supplied - causing the situation to worsen. The resistance in the wires also affects the amount of time it takes to replenish the charge of the onboard capacitors - possibly leading to their inability to handle the next transient current demand if it comes soon enough.... or maybe the 3rd one, etc.. or maybe just in those instances when everybody is depending increased current all at once - leading to those "pretty" windows BSODs.
The other aspect of the wire is that it has inductance. Inductance is a material's (the wires in this case) "resistance" to a change in current (versus the capacitors "resistance" to a change in voltage). Note that in the case of both capacitance and inductance this "resistance" (properly called impedance) is dependent on frequency. Now inductance can be either beneficial or detrimental to a circuit, depending upon the circuit (as can capacitance). In the case of power distribution (not power conditioning or conversion) inductance has a pronounced negative affect. When that sudden large change in current requirement occurs, the inductance of the wire resists the change and causes a lag in time before the increase in current demand can be met by the power supply.
In regards to how it affects noise - the overall impedance (the frequency dependant resistance of a component or system) determines the amount of noise coupling between two seperate, but adjacent, circuits. The lower the impedance of a connection, the smaller the magnitude of noise that will be coupled to it by an adjacent circuit. Increased inductance and resistance (in the case of no real net change in capacitance) causes the impedance to be higher - causing more noise to be coupled, in this case to the connections between the power supply and the MB.
And the last piece of the puzzle as it were... in the case of both resistance and inductance... when you parallel components (in this case the wires) with these characteristics, the result is a decrease in the net (total) value. Put two resistors or inductors of equal value in parallel and the value is halved. Put 3 in parallel and the value is reduced to 1/3rd. etc., etc.
And of course... the actual connector pins themselves also have these same circuit properties as well.
So, by adding the extra wires and connector pins between the power supply and the MB, the transient response characteristics of the power distribution system is improved, as is the noise characteristics, leading to cleaner, more stable power for all those OC'd goodies on your MB ;)
Hope that answers your Q :D
Peace :toast:
Very complex, but answer
Ty :toast: :clap:
Made it as clear and short as possible while still trying to answer your Q completely... left out some of the more complicated issues. The short-short answer was my comment 3 in post #76 ;)
YW :toast:
Thank you for the very informative responce to my question!!Quote:
Originally Posted by EMC2
This still leads me to believe the only thing that can happen is instability. If wires were soldierd strait to the bridge rectifirer or the point in the power supply were the +12 volt lines ect. come from would you not over come many of the things you speak of. Ie line resistance and noice ect.? If the power supply had the amp and watt cappability of cource?
YW2 :D BTW...read last sentence of post #76 above ;)
The things I spoke of all deal with the connections between the PS and the MB... the wires and the connector... ( didn't even go into PWB/trace parasitics and reactances... nor wire types, skin effects,,,).... so short answer is no.
Peace :toast:
I would like to ask you this seeing as you seem to be knowledgable.Quote:
Originally Posted by EMC2
What abou running two power suppies?
One for the board and one for all the drives and fans and periferals?
i got all the parts i need for my new rig, but i can't wait anymore for bfg to send me my replacement psu. i'm gonna try it with my old antec 430 20pin. i don't have an adaptor so how do i plug in the 20 pin connector? which side should the unconnected 4 pins be on?
--- thesaucier ---
Yes, it can be done... 2 important things - you must have a good common ground connection between the two supplies (would suggest a HDD molex<->molex adapter cable with only the ground connection wired in it)... you want to make sure that you don't have any of the power rails directly connected together. Oh, and try to adjust power rails within 0.2V of each other.
--- shiznit ---
The connector is "keyed" such that it should only go in one way (properly)... but the extra pins are 21->24... look for the Pin 1 identifier on your MB and the cable plugs into that "side" of the connector.
Peace :toast:
thanks, its just gonna be for a couple of days til bfg get their act together. will i run the risk of damaging anything by using the 20pin psu. i'm not gonna overclock the venice until my rma bfg 550sli psu gets here.
If I connected the common lines togetther from each power supply and connect the power on line from each pwer supply will that work for good common ground and also start both power supplies at the same time when the computer power on button is hit?Quote:
Originally Posted by EMC2
--- shiznit ---
Should be no issue with damaging anything at stock settings... but I would still suggest getting a 20->24 adapter and modding it as I describe earlier in this thread.
--- Saucier ---
With a good connection between grounds on the two supplies (for example via a HDD pwr cnx) your good there.
Yes, you can connect the "Power_On" signals together for the two supplies... it's a TTL input signal (to the PS's) that goes low to turn the PS's on...
Peace :toast:
I have to say that bfg has THE BEST customer service I have EVER dealt with. All the reps I talked to were very polite and did whatever they could to help me. I got my replacement psu within a week of them receiving the broken one, they shipped it monday and I received iy wednesday afternoon. Looks like i won't have to bother with the antec after all, tomorrow is gonna be one fun day.
Been running a Enhance 460w 20-pin ever since I got my DFI.
I have done a 20 -> 24pin mod on it, so im not if that counts :D
Running Clawhammer 3500+ @ 3.1+ with 1.85vcore and 3.6+ vdimm.. nice and stable.
You said that the OCZ Powerstream 520W is not ATX2.0 compliant. On the specifications for OCZ Powerstream, however, it tells a different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlobber
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/PSUSpec.pdf
Only the 600W one is ATX2.01 compliant, but I don't think that's a requirement for the DFI board, is it?
I am running my DFI NF4-ultra D on 20 pin PSU. It is icute 420watt. Max power is actually 395.5watt. But, there is flactuate on the voltage supplied. It is always over volt by 0.1 volt. So far, my comp is stable but died on me due to flashing of Bios.
Can someone show a pic of what volt the 4 extra pin should be feed with ?
Been reading several threads about this but still havent seen what cable go where.
But i would guess i am now an electric engineer after all these deep into electric conversations, maybe i build my own 24 pin psu =)
Will I am now running the dfi SLI-DR in sli mode with two 6800gts and have been for a while now with no problems using a 20 pin 600watt Enermax. :banana:
The 4 extra pins are pins 11,12,23,24 :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubermann
http://xtremesystems.org/forums/atta...chmentid=30687 http://xtremesystems.org/forums/atta...chmentid=30688
And a standard HD pwr cnx is,
Yellow: +12V
Black: Gnd
Black: Gnd
Red: +5V
:lol:/me sends Ubermann a kit : 1 yard bailing wire, 1 roll duct tape, 1 pack chewing gum :p:Quote:
But i would guess i am now an electric engineer after all these deep into electric conversations, maybe i build my own 24 pin psu =)