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I've been doing some reading, going back through info published in the last 10 years, and got to thinking about the "Myths" or common misconceptions people have about water cooling. I thought it would be interesting to see what the group here thinks are the most common myths/misunderstandings still prevalent today.
I'm thinking about "principles" here, not specific products, so please don't mention brand or vendor names. Thanks - it will be interesting to see what the group thinks.
Res before Pump?
CPU before GPU?
No angled connectors(45 or 90 degree)?
is i some thing like that?
Yeah, Avathar - that's the general idea.
Example of a Myth - Slower water flow is better because the water has more time to cool in the radiator ...
Yeah. Something like that. Res before pump makes for easy filling, but I've filled loops other ways. CPU before GPU is common sense-CPUs don't heat up like GPUs, but eventually you'll get equilibrium, so you could conceivably do it the other way. New angled connectors are better than old ones-the restriction is largely gone, and we see many of them in many builds nowadays.
Here's a myth: It seems a lot of people think you must use a uber powerful pump if you mount a rad on top of your case.
what about vertically climbing tubes hampering the flow/pressure?
What goes up, must come down. Equilibrium my friendQuote:
Originally Posted by Avathar77
and the idea that flow has some kind of big effect on temps...
CPU b4 GPU... can be possible.. depends on how many gpu's u have, as having 2 can increase the water temp b4 it hits cpu while in loop... your playing with holding capacity of H2O here... Anytime u go over 350W of heat collected... your going to be playing with holding capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avathar77
No angled connectors - applies still to nylon fittings.
Res B4 pump - Is meant for bleeding if anything... typically its res in the highest location so you can use gravity to move water down to the pump in the lowest possition.
I do know one thing tho.... NO RD-30 b4 RES and NO RD-30 without CLAMPS! <---- not a myth.
Depends on how much travel your loop needs to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyNutz
Even if the tubing is laid out flat, you still have restriction. A closed loop uses a mix of gravity with convection, and were using a pump to increase water movement.
If your loop is complicated.. has a full board block and is a spiders web, your flow will drop considerably below the 1gpm mark we recommend, which can lead to your system being very inefficient.
Strong pump also makes it easy to PURGE / Bleed your system when you build if setup properly.
your kidding right? after 1gpm - 1.5gpm... it wont variate with more flow unless u have more heat... watercooling is about harmony.. its not about shoving the most radiators inside a case to win..Quote:
Originally Posted by defect9
You match the amount water picks up which translates to holding capacity in flow... then goes to the exchanger where it releases and then you got a rince and repeat.
OMG...Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyNutz
This ONLY applies to open loop my friend.
In a closed loop, you got 0 net movement.. because what is pulling up is being canceled by whats going down so you initially got 0 movement. The Kinetic Value in the system is negated by the potential value.
Once heat is added, you got convection (adding energy)... warm water wanting to go to the highest point while cold dropping.
OMG seriously WTF has happened to this forum while i was gone?
I have planned my loop with GPU before CPU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayin
Just because it is easier and neater.
what about the myth that water-cooling gets you more chicks
WTH are you talking about???? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
I'm saying when you put water up (forced with a pump) it will come down, and with gravity on its side to help the pump put it back up again. IN A CLOSED LOOP!!
Essentially creating a Equilibrium. It's balanced like two kids that weigh the same on a teeter totter. Jeez!!!!!
Myth: EVERYONE NEEDS A PA120.9 to get decient watercooling...
ONCE AGAIN..
watercooling is done on harmony..
You figure out how much heat water is going to carry, with that you translate on how big of radiator you need to hold it at X dT using X fans.
Then you use flow to see if your water will go up X degree's in C while transporting heat to the radiator.
Bigger is not always better.
Myth: Red coolant gives you the best performance..
NO! its PINK COOLANT DAMMIT!!! <--- sarcasm.
debunked... cuz i think u got married B4 u watercooled.. which meant the end of your chick collection days...Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthBeavis
If anything u will get less chicks, because ur poor as hell buying all the expensive LC gear.
LOL thats so not a myth... :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthBeavis
myth vs unnoticeable physics.
the following is true until you get to extreme systems where theres 1000$ worth in just rads/blocks:
pumps are plenty strong.
tubing size does not need to be 1/2" ID.
flow rate is typically more than adequate in most loops.
expensive additives are not needed.
cpu before gpu may not make any difference in actual performance.
the more things added to the loop, the more noticeable each issue can become, but that does not mean it needs to be worried about in every case.
Woow, somebody is angry.... Take it easy my friend. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
DarthBeavis trust me, I try to prove that myth and is not true. You probably get the attention of more mans than womans...
Crap, guess I'm S.O.L. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthBeavis
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShArKo
NaeKuh's not angry. He's just ... NaeKuh :)
And, DB - that getting chicks thing hasn't worked very well for me.
Any more "Myths" you guys and gals see being repeated over and over - maybe in the form of questions from folks new to liquid cooling?
The over importance of using DI or distilled water; zero microSiemens water.
Now I am not saying all tap is safe to use, especially here in CA; but people in some cities (ie. like Portland) have really soft water coming out of their tap and it is perfectly safe to use. Any water with a low TDS [below 100] should be safe.
Umm, last I checked, you were a chick? So does that prove it works or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
It does. ............Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthBeavis
My fav. Dye blocks ports on water cooling blocks. hehehe ... i love that one .... BIGGEST MYTH of all ....
your not from the UK are you ... pmsl Uk water goes from 134 TDS to 300 TDS in the UK depending on were you are from. So If living in the UK there is no Way you can just run tap water. so its not myth at all. In a city or not.Quote:
Raul-7
If you spill coolant over the motherboard you need to leave it until the second full moon before putting it back into the PC :rofl:
tubing size has importance over 3/8ths ID. <--- myth
annodized Alu is safe to mix in a mixed metal loop with electrolyte and no anti corrosive.. <--- Another Myth.
Watercooled TEC's break physics and can handle an inifinite amount of heat as long as u keep the hot side cool... <--- u wouldnt believe how many people think this... this is again myth.
Home Depot Brand Tubing is great.. <--- :\ sure if u like it to cloud in weeks...
Koolance is Junk, they only use ALU <--- LOL u wouldnt believe how many people still think this... :\
Its almost hard to believe koolance is where they are now... seriously guys... they did a complete 180 and made all of us go OMGWTFBBQ.
Its like TT saying we messed up our Bigwater... and they started busting out high end stuff which rivals EK.
Why not start a thread on marketing gimmicks instead? Such as high flow and nickel plated that every product has attached.
got another one. larger cases and reservoirs get you better temps
d5 is more reliable or stronger than the ddc with top
I wish my wife did not believe that . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
:rofl: your on a roll today.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthBeavis
Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
Could be a little difficult for some of the myths seeing the "myths" are actually about what the specific product is like and what it can do.
Oh, and I'm not talking about any non conductive fluids.. ;)
Non Conductive liquids....enuf said
lol
I've got a few myths, some already mentioned, that I'll summarize in one shot:
1. Thermaltake = watercooling
2. non-conductive liquids will make sure that you don't short anything out if you have a leak
3. a larger reservoir will result in better temps (we are not talking about a 50 gallon drum buried in the ground here)
4. gpm on a pump is what we should look for, hence any pond pump will work
5. the more money you throw at a watercooling loop, the better it will be.
6. water needs to go slower in a loop to have more time in the radiators to shed heat
7. there is some magic clear tubing (that uses plasticizers) that will forever stay clear
8. the bigger the pump, the better the loop performance
9. the more fancy Bitspower fittings you can cram into a loop, the better it is
10. the more expensive your watercooling loop is, the better your potential overclocks will be
11. Darthbeavis ever had a hope of being the kind of guy who could pick up chicks in the first place
You can water cool your wife down after she finds out how much money you spend on water cooling parts.
Myth that LC is omnipotent & all-powerful while ignoring need for adequate rad size and expecting uber performance (common to factory made kits/sets with 1x120 rad).
Shazza: can you put myths scattered in many thread posts in OP for them to be easily readable and to lessen repeated cases?
This one comes up now and then:
Pump before CPU block because high pressure improves thermal performance of the CPU block.
We know that pressure changes throughout the loop and flow rate remains constant, so this would imply that high pressure would somehow change the thermal properties of water at pressures as low as 10PSI. Unfortunately water is for all practical purposes particularly at the low pressure ranges considered in-compressible. So if you can't compress the water and increase it's density, you can't improve water's thermal properties with pump pressure. I suppose if you ran a system full of air bubbles it would have some impact, but otherwise...myth. As far as loop order goes, if you want to split fractions of a degree, the best place to put the CPU block is immediately after the radiator where the water is it's coldest. For practical purposes, it really doesn't matter because most systems will see less than a degree variance in water temperature throughout the loop.
[QUOTE=Waterlogged;4967248]
Could be a little difficult for some of the myths seeing the "myths" are actually about what the specific product is like and what it can do.
Oh, and I'm not talking about any non conductive fluids.. ;)[/QUOTE
I get what you're saying, Waterlogged. I just wanted to avoid getting into the whole negative vendor bashing regime we've seen so much of. I've deleted one such post, left a couple others ...
@ Churchy - I've mentioned before that it would be useful to update the Info Guides, maybe do a FAQ as well - which would include debunking of Myths. I just need to find the energy (and fortitude) to get it done.
Thanks Voigts and Martin210. Voigts - I understand what you're saying about Thermaltake, but it does seem they are trying to make some new products which may be better. No experience with their stuff, so can't say for sure.
If you view Bundymania's watercooling parts pictures before going to sleep, you will pee on your bed :>
+1 to what Voigts said!
@Shazza great post idea, deserves a sticky with Q&A format... will help a lot noobies like me :)
Full cover blocks for GPUs are better then universal GPUs waterblocks + RAM heatsinks.
this changes as you introduce this tho:Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/ntc22ss7.jpg
lulz.. answered this already:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
^ this is not a myth.... u can only get water channels @ VRM's with FC blocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levesque
There is no VRM block yet, unless i missed something.
Watercooling VRM's is very benificial, and more so since we saw how fast they can blow out after skinnee pop'd one on his bed during his GTX's tests.
killjoy.Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
How about:
Water cooling can never be quieter than air? I have a system here that kills that myth dead.
Water cooling can not be economical. While it is certainly more expensive than stock air cooling, it can be, when longevity of a carefully planned and constructed loop is taken into account, be nearly equal to top-performance air-coolers.
When considering cooling alternatives, Watercooling's risk of leakage and potential total-system destruction must be taken into account. Seriously. This one's still alive.
Cooper can not look as nice as nickel plated copper. :P I noticed over the years a few people say how ugly copper is, but I must admit I find the raw material alluring, I can't be the only one. (I know this sounds wrong but it was the best way I could put it. :stick:)
And if i was to move the pump and radiator into another run.Quote:
Originally Posted by warriorpoet
Have the tubing extend from room A into computer B, and move the heat out from the PC into the Other room.
It would be on PAR with a passive system, yet hold better cooling pontential because H2O has almost 10x the thermal conductivity as AIR does.
The key thing in anything science is to work with the numbers and then apply them in real life.
And if the numbers work out... then the theory is a working theory.
But dont get me wrong... because numbers work out, does not mean it will work out in Real Life.
I and a few other pioneers have learned this first hand... sometimes the numbers look TOO GOOD to be true.
Me too, I just moved the radiators two-floors down into my garden. Gets me super cool temperatures at night as well. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by warriorpoet
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2.../i7920cold.jpg
a couple i have seen (and might be guilty of thinking myself):
1. temps in the loop change from component to component (20C drop after rad, 20C increase after CPU, etc) <---- EPIC FAIL loop maintains constant temp within .5C throughout loop
2. **all** prefab WC units/kits suck <---- no so much: some do, but others are actually pretty decent performance per dollar (especially the kits that come with double/triple rad)....and once the prefab units start coming with at least a double radiator they might be pretty good as well!!
3. i've heard the one about the bigger res makes better temps, but it's an older myth <---- FAIL it might take a little longer to max out water temps, but they will still reach the same temp as with a smaller loop - this is only true if you don't let the loop reach max temps (take reading too early)
no its not constant... its thermodynamics and you got it wrong also.Quote:
Originally Posted by bds71
The value your mentioning in A is the holding potential of H2O.
What that means is the value in which it takes X amount of heat @ Y galons / minute, to make it go up 1C.
This value is noted at somewhere around 300-350W @ 1-1.5gpm flow.
As you decrease flow, you decrease the holding potiental of water and vice versa.
The reason why we say .75gpm - 1.5gpm is the sweet spot is due to the holding potential number. Rougly 275W-350W b4 water goes up 1C.
And yes its been shown many times that the difference between a .5gpm system vs a .75-1.5gpm can be quite substantial.
Its a science of fine tuning part A to carry just enough for Part B, so Part C can have just the right amount of both.
This is what we call efficiency.
Bigger res translates into longer equalibirum time...
Meaning it will take more to see bigger change.
In a closed loop system, yes, it wont matter much at the finish line.
O_o
Heh - Things never change really, do they...
What can be said has been said. Read the archives. Laws of Physics don't change. The original 'myths' article (http://www.overclockers.com/watercooling-myths-exposed/), and all the emp data here, on OCAU and at ProC always did cover it ALL for those who took the time to read.
Putting more than 2 rice size drops of thermal paste is the reason for your temp that is 10-20 degrees higher than it should.
I see this all the time when someone is like my CPU is 10-20 degrees higher than it should be, first thing someone says is too much thermal paste. If you mount the cpu block correctly it should squeeze out the excess anyways.
Quote:
temps in the loop change from component to component (20C drop after rad, 20C increase after CPU, etc) <---- EPIC FAIL loop maintains constant temp within .5C throughout loop
i didn't mean the overall loop temp doesn't fluctuate - of course it can increase upwards of 20C under heavy load. i simply meant that **within** the loop (ie: between components) the temps are within .5C. so there **might** be a slight temp difference between the radiator outlet/inlet, but it won't be more than about .5C ---> not a 5-20C change (from rad-in to rad-out) as the MYTH states.Quote:
no its not constant... its thermodynamics and you got it wrong also.
explain please?Quote:
OMG...
This ONLY applies to open loop my friend.
In a closed loop, you got 0 net movement.. because what is pulling up is being canceled by whats going down so you initially got 0 movement. The Kinetic Value in the system is negated by the potential value.
Once heat is added, you got convection (adding energy)... warm water wanting to go to the highest point while cold dropping.
your saying that there is no movement?
My favorite water cooling myth is how each new block (or revision) from each company claims to be 2 deg C better than its previous best block. This is occurring right now with the Apogee HD block marketing as I type. Problem is, this means that over the past ten years and five generations of blocks, we should see about 10 to 12 deg C lower temps versus some of these companies first generation blocks (back in 2002 or so). In fact you see nothing of the sort. The real difference between 2002 blocks and 2011 super supreme high flow apogee tippy top grando blocks is about 3 deg C at best. All else, is parting you from your money to be the latest and greatest.
the only watercooling myth I know of is that people can agree on anything watercooling related :p:
MCW5000 came in 2002, you can go ahead and compare that to the new ApogeeHD
...intelligence says otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhall0315
...
Well I still have a Danger Den Maze 4 waterblock for cpus from about 2002. When I place it on a i7 980x cpu in the lab running at 4.4 GHz, I get the following:
At idle - 41 deg C with Apogee XT Rev 2, 42 deg C with the EK Sup HF and 45 deg C with the Maze 4.
At load after 5 min with only Prime 95 - 73 deg C with Apogee "", 72 deg C with EK and 74 deg C with the Maze 4.
Dont believe me or think I am making stuff up ? Test it yourself, ... you will be surprised.
how many mounts did you do?
Three each. Although, admittedly, this was done for my own personal curiosity back in August when I bought the Apogee XT Rev 2 internals.
I invite others to test this for yourself and see the marketing bs for what it is. The Apogee XT and EK Sup HF release more heat/surface area/time but the Maze 4 has much better flow with less restriction. IN the end the Maze 4 is not that bad off. This heat equation pde curve from laminar to turbulent vs heat release cannot be adjusted much with these two dimensional flat copper block designs. Everytime a modification is made to release more heat, it usually comes at the price of more restriction. Your only paying for marketing in most aspects.
But you dont NEED FC to get good results. Take the MCW60-4870 for example... and who made you the WC god? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Nickel looks awful, if youre gonna mimic chrome, might as well do chrome. I prefer the look of copper. And anyone who says copper doesnt look good hasnt seen an Aquatuning WB...Quote:
Originally Posted by Water Hippo
Um, not...you need to spread it in an even layer. Enough pressure to completely squish it out would kill the CPU, socket and mobo.Quote:
Originally Posted by wondergod
Ill add some myths:
1. If you have more than 2 blocks you need a 655.
2. If you have more than a 360 rad you need a 655.
3. You need a 480 rad to cool anything newer than a P4.
4. If you put $2000 worth of BP fittings or EK blocks your system will be better.
5. You HAVE to buy EK to get any performance.
6. You cant have JUST distilled water in your loop, you need a kill coil too.
7. Silver coils cause corrosion (lol).
I would have to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furball Zen
Corrosion occurs when there are 2 different metal in the watercool system and the water is not pure and slightly conductive. So if you have copper rad and silver block corrosion will occur on the copper rad.
Please see this doc to verify yourself
_http://www.gewater.com/handbook/cooling_water_systems/ch_24_corrosion.jsp
no there is no movement minus convection if you have a heat source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Computurd
In a closed loop, which most LC systems are its sealed.
You can not get an increase in kinetic without a decrease in potential, otherwise you just solved the free energy question.
this is also why when you turn on a pump, you notice your res water level drop... because the water is being pulled, and the only thing in the system which is compressible is the AIR.
That is why we need pumps... so we can move the coolant inside the loop.
Remember the basics rules of physics:
1. You can never get something for free
2. You can never cheat the system. (meaning equal or greater value is required to get results)
3. You are DAYAM'd to always play with the system. (meaning, you can never quit)
-face palm-Quote:
Originally Posted by Furball Zen
i dont even know how to argue with this... the MCW60 is a great core only block.. but guess what? Swiftech realized they needed more cooling for the MCW60 and did what?
OH yeah.. its called a Culdera heat sinks...
http://www.swiftech.com/images/produ...X285P892HS.jpg
and OMG WOW what coincidence that it makes it like a full cover block... -sigh-
Now u guys see about my statement about all these wannabe skinnee's trying to run and break my soap box.
(now im running away b4 skinnee actually comes around and busts my soap box)
Naekuh: those heatsinks are simply compromise right in the middle between FC & core only. Not universal as core only blocks, yet you won't throw out 100$ when upgrading card, but just third of it. It's not like FC, but right in the middle of both camps.
I wonder when and how someone will make purpose-built universal vrm waterblocks to accompany core only blocks. Ones that will fit wide range of cards and will be somehow easier to connect to main block without big extra mess of additional tubing/fitting pieces. I see those both areas as good targets to innovation, and would prefer such solution to existing FC blocks. I'm guessing though that such will need modded main block tops with extra inlets/outlets for short/near interconnect to companion vrm blocks.
the way it was worded led me to believe that you were talking about with a pump there was no net movement.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
your probably mixing sliver with aluminumQuote:
Originally Posted by overdoze
copper + aluminum is bad
silver is added by a very large part of this community because its great at killing off algae
The longer you talk to him, the more you realize there are always silent/un-stated implications in his argument. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Computurd
Rats, I spent ALL that money to get started and NOW you tell US? :shocked:Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthBeavis
So would peltier help :shrug:
lol i feel the same way, feels almost weird wanting koolance product. feels so wrong almost.. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
this is such a perfect thread for you nae i will proceed to troll you in a minute hehe
:shocked: what?? this isn't true ?!?! BLASPHEMY!!Quote:
Watercooled TEC's break physics and can handle an inifinite amount of heat as long as u keep the hot side cool... <--- u wouldnt believe how many people think this... this is again myth.
/sarcasm off :)
Forgot a fave peeve of mine, adding a small rad before/after a large rad allows you to total your rad space as if it were a single rad.
I.E.: putting a 120 after a 480 make it a 600.
Yea, 600 in terms of surface area, but not cooling capacity.
The number of soap boxes dropped?Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
lol couldn't resist
I don't know if it's just a myth or me, but for about the first year of my getting into watercooling I believed that watercooling would dump way less heat into the room because the cpu temps were lower.
if it is less, it's not much.
doesnt it? lower temps = less heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by defect9
LOLOLOLOLOL
OMG seriously WTF has happened to this forum while i was gone?
ROFL ! Did the sales of full cover blocks drop as well ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom128
The TEC thing worked for me until I received my power bill.... :shocked:Quote:
Originally Posted by bds71
We at Swiftech optimize our blocks for the most current CPU generation(s). Which is exactly why there are jumps in performance when a new block is released. Apogee XT was designed for LGA1366 not for 1155. As opposed to the Apogee HD was designed with both sockets in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhall0315
While designing the Apogee HD I tried the Apogee GTZ so to get an idea how good it was doing on socket 1155. Its best mount (out of 5) was behind the Apogee HD by 4.5C. back on socket 775 while designing the GTZ, it was 7.5 C better than the Storm...
I can't speak for other manufacturers but I know well that the numbers we publish are precisely what we measure from real CPUs (and not die simulators). And because CPUs IHS quality/shape may vary from a batch to another, we even test multiple CPUs to validate our tests.
Sorry but this one isn't a myth ;)
Thanks for the reply Stephen. No disrespect, but I cant replicate your results. My ole Danger Den Maze 4, is about 3 to 4 deg C back from the Apogee XT Rev 2 for the socket 1366 testing I did in August. Dont get me wrong, I like Swiftech. In fact, I have your blocks on my home system (bc I like the easy mounting system and the MCW 82 universal gpu blocks which save me money). I also use your stuff in my lab, but I sure dont see any 8 deg C or larger difference between early blocks and the Apogee XT rev 2.
If you are the block designer, or even better, a real university educated engineer, then you know the thermodynamic limits of 2D gaped array heat exchange. You may not be solving it by hand (hehe), and using some cfd software for quick estimates, but the heat equation and Navier-Stokes are very specific (although 3D N-S is of course extremely chaotic bounded by initial condition). You can cut this groove, or add this inlet, but only so much water can be forced thru for a given pressure with a given Reynolds turbulence. Of course if you add in 2, 3, ...10 more inlets, you will see marginal Delta T drop, but 2D array is limited. The current crop of Apogee XT, EK super duper, and Koolance Super Star Destroyer are rounding the bend on what you will get from a 2D finned array. I suppose if you add in 4 inlets and 4 outlets with finned gaps to match each channel and four pumps to push it, etc...then you will see real gains. But, I am restricting the discussion for my part to blocks which have one 1/2 inch inlet and outlet.
There is a way forward with copper blocks, but not in the manner in which most companies are copying each other now (or making very incremental improvements). Unfortunately, the patent process is in the final leg so to speak, so I would not like to reveal it just quite yet. (nor will I be making it myself once the patent is finalized). It is common idea that comes from submarine propellor design and N-S optimization is all I care to reveal now.
Did you include other factors such as humidity / air temps / system configuration / amount of fluid used / ECT to your calculations Jay? Just asking....
Good question Malkiewicz. Here is the basic setup I use every time someone releases a new super duper block claiming to beat all others which I am curious enough to buy myself:
Simple loop (open air, not in a case) in our back lab room that stays at 27 deg C, with a trusty Asus P6T Version 2 board and an Intel i7-980x processor at 4.4 GHz. The loop consists of the following which never changes - Swiftech MCP655 vario on setting 5 (4800 rpms) -> one foot of 1/2 inch ID, 3/4 inch OD clearflex tubing -> old but trusty Thermochill PA 120.2 with two Scythe S-Flex E fans blowing at 1000 rpms -> one foot of clearflex tubing "" -> 980x CPU with block custom clamped to maintain same even pressure (in Pa) -> one foot of clearflex tubing "" -> Swiftech micro-res filled to about 10mm clear of the top and fully bled -> one foot foot of clearflex "" back to pump. The TIM we always use is Arctic Silver 5. The mix we use is always 100 percent distilled water with 5 drops of algae biocide from Pets Smart. We use three software and two hardware designs to monitor temps. I must admit though, I fooled with this setup much more when I was back in grad school. Now that I am working as a PI, I usually only test a block on this setup perhaps twice a year and only for personal curiosity.
Blocks I have purchased and put thru this test out of my own curiosity : Apogee XT, Apogee XT rev 2, EK Supreme HF (with three different plates), the XSPC Rasa (not tested), the Koolance 360, the Apogee GTZ, and several older blocks going back to the Maze 4. Whenever I do testing, I generally find agreement or pretty close agreement Martinm when our results cover the same areas. I often do not find agreement with testing done by Skinnee.
I invite you to test this for yourself readers and you will see that the ten year old Maze 4 block is not that far off. I dont own the Storm block, so cant comment there Stephen.
I haven't had the chance to test the Maze4. If you tell me you had the equipment to make a true apple to apple test, I will not doubt your numbers. Actually I wouldn't be surprise. I've seen some surprising results over the past few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhall0315
But the thing is, we are (unfortunately - because CFD and hand-on fluid analysis were lots of fun) no longer in the same ball game anymore. And to be honest, it's been like that for a good 4 years. Today manufacturers can obviously all produce high density base plates and the raw copper to coolant thermal conductivity is pretty high for everyone. Actually, it's that high that is very difficult to even measure these differences using even good lab equipment.
Now the real battle for performance happens around the mechanical contact. Everyone has heard how not flat CPU's IHS are and everyone has at least heard the word "bow". There are actually not so many researches that have been done on the thermal aspect of cyl/cyl mechanical contacts. At some point I even considered rerolling my PhD in this area but i've got way too much work here , ahah. More seriously, your assumptions are correct, all improvements made around the fluid dynamics in modern water blocks will be incremental. But that doesn't mean it stops right here. That's quite the opposite, every time a new CPU or socket is released it usually changes everything, and that's why we need to keep researching this so we can keep producing products that are designed for these modern CPUs.
with today's technology if you see someone claiming more than incremental temperature gains because of a slight change in the hydraulic of a block then you're probably looking at a myth and whatever gain it was, it was probably due to something else. ;)
edit: a couple more things. Socket 775 really changed things with how the IHS is/was clamped. Later, dual cores (and then especially double separate dies) changed things also on how/where CPU temperature was read. LGA1366 and the large die also changed a bunch of other things... Now LGA2011 is coming, double clamping and an even larger IHS... :) fun fun stay tuned =D
You might be a great contact person in the future Stephen. If you could, send me your contact details by PM and I will stash em for future reference. What I will be curious to see is how the Apogee HD performs relative to the Apogee XT Rev 2 with one inlet and one outlet on the 980x at 4.4 GHz. Also, contrary to what Skinnee published, I actually show the Apogee XT neck and neck with the EK Supreme HF and I do not get the 1.8 deg C difference he notes (on average).
Most of the time differences from a user to another (or from a tester to another) when comparing two identical products will be due to either quality of mounts or simply because they don't use the exact same CPU (different IHS concavity/convexity, etc). Which is one of the reasons we typically test different CPUs. I'll send you my contact info in a PM.
Thats the problem!!! instead of soap boxes its a wooden bucket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom128
do you know how easy those are to break? skinnee wouldnt need a hammer for those... he just needs to kick them.
:OQuote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
ummm... no... i assume.. umm.... u have telepathy to understand the 75% i leave out.
I cannot agree more with you, one of a few using their grey matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhall0315
In actual fact, even a 480mm rad is overkill. But, tell that to some of the Boyz around here, and you'll get shot. Let's hope they're not reps-in-disguise :rofl: I think it is a case of people not understanding the difference between their perceptions and reality, when it comes to the cooling requirements of modern CPU's.
Enough of my rant, but I have to add, yes, this is the biggest myth of all time (the too-big-rad-myth)
ps: Mmm, like your ideas wrt a new design, and referencing ship/sub propellers - all I can think of you're reference has to do with "cavitation" effect of modern props, or something in that line...you know, causing an area of low-pressure, resulting in water boiling at much lower temp, even close to room-temp, resulting in "phase-cooling" effect, well, in a normal waterblock......good luck, about time for a fresh approach....
To close for comfort, I hope not :flowers:
And of course people like Naekuh who want a <1C delta :rofl:!Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBean
Yeah, then there's Naekuh ;) But, he's on a planet of his own, hehe. I am talkin the general populace here, that excludes him.Quote:
And of course people like Naekuh who want a <1C delta
Soz Naekuh, had to.....
I actually like to think of it this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBean
X amount of heat, needs Y amount of radiators and Z amount of fan speed.
The more Y you have compared to X the less Z you need to get acceptable temps with a given power consumption. And when radiators are as cheap as they are and since most of us are using fairly big cases, one might as well use the space available.
And the reason I think like this is: I like the potential of liquid cooling system, but I would like to take advantage of the possibility to have a really quiet system as well.
How much time does your PC actually spent under 100% full load?Quote:
I actually like the think of it this way:
X amount of heat, needs Y amount of radiators and Z amount of fan speed.
The more Y you have compared to X the less Z you need to get acceptable temps with a given power consumption. And when radiators are as cheap as they are and since most of us are using fairly big cases, one might as well use the space available.
And the reason I think like this is: I like the potential of liquid cooling system, but I would like to take advantage of the possibility to have a really quiet system as well.
There are very good automatic controllers on the market, which you can set your own control curves, to assist with taking care of the noise-issues, if any....
But, I knew someone was going to come with this argument, I mean, you can have a quiet system, with 1/2 to a 1/3 of what most guys are 'claiming' you need to 'cool' such and such a system. Again, it's all in perceptions...
But, this takes it off-topic, and a discussion for another thread.
How much time does your PC actually spent under 100% full load?Quote:
I actually like the think of it this way:
X amount of heat, needs Y amount of radiators and Z amount of fan speed.
The more Y you have compared to X the less Z you need to get acceptable temps with a given power consumption. And when radiators are as cheap as they are and since most of us are using fairly big cases, one might as well use the space available.
And the reason I think like this is: I like the potential of liquid cooling system, but I would like to take advantage of the possibility to have a really quiet system as well.
There are very good automatic controllers on the market, which you can set your own control curves, to assist with taking care of the noise-issues, if any....
But, I knew someone was going to come with this argument, I mean, you can have a quiet system, with 1/2 to a 1/3 of what most guys are 'claiming' you need to 'cool' such and such a system. Again, it's all in perceptions...
But, this takes it off-topic, and a discussion for another thread.
stephenswiftech: If lately it all became mostly about mechanical contact quality to differentiate cooling performance of recent blocks @ recent CPUs, i wonder what can be done to make it best possible. Seeing top air coolers weighting now about kilogram, seeing performance improvements and lessening of TIM influence with much more pressure ('great contact' mounts @skinneelab TIM tests), imho safety margin for maximum mount pressure of water blocks can be decreased and vendors should squeeze out more performance by using much more pressure then on average it is now.
I would think my CPU is around 150W+ at the moment (50% more freq and 1.45vcore, 95W * 1.5 ++). So for a 3x 120mm radiator, yes, I agree with you even for a silent system its enough. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBean
Used to have a 4870x2 on it though, so I didn't choose that RAD just for having it on the CPU alone.
There is also the question about what I consider acceptable noise level and I really doubt that when I get the extra 6950 and put both under water that the 360 will be enough with noise well under 30dB during load. But I might be wrong still, I am going to try it out though when the parts arrive! ;)
And for the fun of it, let's say you already have an 800D, then it would be cheaper for you to buy more rads and more fans and just keep them at your acceptable level of noise rather than buying for example an "Koolance TMS-200" to control them. ^^
(Not an entirely serious argument, just pulling your leg a little Bruce)
That's a great point as well as, what is realistic for 'full load'. If I run prime95 and UniEngine's Heaven demo (vsinc off) side by side, my kill-a-watt tells me I'm using well over 300 watts, but no real world usage including video gaming with folding@home running in the background even comes close to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBean
Just throwing it out there since we are talking about myths and being informed and what-not. From a performance standpoint that's kind of irrelevant. I've been water cooling for a few years now and have almost always used tubing from Lowes since I can walk across the street to get it. However, I also use black tubing most of the time so clouding isn't a problem. The biggest downside to Home Depot/Lowes type tubing is that it is not as good at bending without pinching.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
That doesn't make any sense at all. Your cpu no matter how you cool it produces a fixed amount of heat. If you cool it with aircooling your room will heat up slower because the heat will be transferred to the room less efficiently. If you cool your system with water the room will heat up faster but to the same eventual temperature because the cooling system you have is more efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by defect9
If anything under most circumstances your room will get hotter will watercooling because most people will up their overclock and voltage making the cpu produce more heat, that heat has to go somewhere ... the fans blow it into the room ... blowing the heat into the room.
It's like naekuh said, you can't trick physics.
Well said! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by c.ruel
If you want to warm your room in the winter OC your HW and watercool it. It's very efficient in dissipating heat in the surroundings. :)
Like it's been said before there is a difference between myth and typically immeasurable physics. Behind this one myth there is an immeasurable fact which invalidates this myth.Quote:
Originally Posted by c.ruel
As the CPU temperature decreases, its impedance (~ resistance) decreases which increases the current (voltage behind regulated), as the current incrementally increases, the CPU heat load also incrementally increases.
As you cool down your CPU, you also increase its heat rejection into the environment. Talking incremental numbers here (to give you an idea: <1% heat increase for ~ 10C drop)
True what Stephen said. I've did a quick test when warming up the FX-8150 from 100°C. Prime95 @ -100°C = 160W draw at the socket, @+20°C = 190W.
Actually it does not. It not linear because silicon becomes more resistive as the temperature rises.Quote:
Originally Posted by c.ruel
Hotter silicon will have higher resistance, the higher resistance will add heat.
well, yeah, i know that now. :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by c.ruel
but back then I wasn't that versed in any physics. so it made total sense.
You got it backward. Resistance does rise with temperature but current decreases as the resistance goes up (fixed voltage). And lower current = lower heat output.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyNutz
A cool CPU will generate more heat than a hot CPU (assuming the same clock, running the same application, blablabla)
It is interesting to think about in terms of coolant; if coolant A cools better than coolant B would that mean that there is more heat being released by the cooler chip? So, the CPU temp would actually be higher for the better coolant..wacky. Or, would the better coolant be able to take care of the extra heat that is being generated by the cooler chip, thus keeping the CPU temp the same (relatively speaking)Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenswiftech
The current does not decrease (perhaps it can a bit) it is rather wasted as heat. As the CPU heats up you'll see the current demand rise as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenswiftech
Tiborrr's test shows this wellQuote:
Originally Posted by tiborrr
where did the extra 30w go when the CPU was warmer?, did the cpu convert the 30w to more calculations? I think the 30w got converted to Heat!