Please Read, DIY frig cooling, What You Think

[Sproket]

Ok I now have a stable system but need to get cooler to truely overclock.

I want a quite running computer, right now using Volcano 7+.

I was thinking of putting the inline pump (Eheim 1250) and the Black Ice Extreme Rad. in a Dorm Room style Refrig. That would keep very cool and quite. Plus I could keep my Cold beer in there. :)

Has anyone done this??

Thanks
Sproket

[Sproket]

I saw the answer below in another thread.
It answered my question. Looks like many people have this thought.


Well.... the fridge will likely be running constantly, in order to maintain it's temperature, which is sub-ambient, so you will probably get condensation, yes. The idea is still cool though.


__________________
AXP1700+ JIUHB 0302 @ 2358MHz - TEC-Watercooled in The Skyscraper
ABIT AT7-MAX , Sapphire Radeon 9500 Pro, 512MB XMS3200C2

[Keeper]

I have mine set up that way, if you use good vinyl hose you won’t get condensation unless your case temps are 17c -20c over your water temp. Its great for mild chilling. I am using a 2.2 cubit foot GE. You will want to put it somewhere where the back gets good ventilation too. Add $10 on your electric bill as well. My CPU under heavy load might reach 35c (see my sig). Here is a link to a pic. but don't exspect your beer to be real cold.

http://home.elp.rr.com/swcf/cooler.jpg

[Sproket]

I like that setup. What size hose are you using 1/2 or 3/8? Did you try other types of tubing besides vinyl?

Do you think the littl erefrig really helps w/ temps? Did you have water cooling w/o refrig? If so what was your temps?

I have the same case as you do.

Thanks for your help

[wymjym]

Keeper,
what are the temps that the water is cooled to? and what is the temp swing of that water?
wj

[Keeper]

I used the original Guttasyn 3/8 hose from Germany, but condensation occurred at 12-14C below ambient. Went to vinyl and saw those temps change to 17-20C. Under load water stays at 16.7C in a room heated to 70F.Water will swing to 21C when ambient room reaches 80F but does not effect CPU temps.

If I want to bench, turning off PC will reduce water temps to -7 in 6 hours, with a 1 gallon reservoir I can maintain 19C temps on the CPU for 3 hours.

[Keeper]

I get 10C lower temps with this setup over no frig.

[wymjym]

thanks, is the 10 lower figure the cpu or water?
what is the compressor (or fridge) rated at?
How quiet, or not, is it?
I'm thinking about mounting the mobo inside and then...well you know....use my chiller for even colder water while the mobo environment is lower than ambient.
My pelt chiller (http://westech.home.mindspring.com/chiller/mychiller.htm) is still going strong. FWIW I can pull the water temps down to 13 and maintain them with a room temp of 80. That is with the 71 + 156 pelts going full bore. Of course the condensation stops me in myt tracks. I'm really pleased with my chiller being able to maintain my typical <8~10 regardless of the room temp...which keeps me out of condensation.
Please let me know the power rating of that little bugger.
wj

xp2400@12.5 x 188

[Keeper]

That 10C is CPU, and I have blocks on the GPU and NB. I will have to pull it away from the wall to see the rating, but not today. It is almost 80F in the room right now, water is 19.5C CPU@32C.

I will get that rating for you in the A.M.

And it is quite, the harddrives make the most noise.

[Sproket]

All good replies.

Keeper where did you get the vinyl tubing, hardware store?
Like Home Depot?

How cold does it get in your refrig?

Thanks

[wymjym]

Originally posted by Keeper
That 10C is CPU, and I have blocks on the GPU and NB. I will have to pull it away from the wall to see the rating, but not today. It is almost 80F in the room right now, water is 19.5C CPU@32C.

I will get that rating for you in the A.M.

And it is quite, the harddrives make the most noise.

Keeper, Thanks again.
I have (had to move it into a backup computer) one of those hdds and they are noisey. I ended up buying one of their fluid drives, that saved my sanity.
Still thinking about a refriged mobo,cpu,mem,vid with even cooler water going to the cpu block.
wj

[Keeper]

Frig specs;
Model AR176 MG 10R
120V X 60HZ 0.8A
Refrigerant 134A 2.3oz.
High side 235psi Low side 140psi
listed 119A
LRA 3.2A

I wish I new what all that means.

The sound improvement is WAYYYYY quieter than the 63 CFM fans.

The inside of the frig will maintain 42F, not cold enough for my sodas.

I an looking for a small freezer for my next project.

Bought the hose at the local hardware store.

[wymjym]

Very cool.
I'll be looling for one that at least matches your specs. BTW what are the interior dimensions or the cubic feet?
If it maintains 42, do yu think it could maintain 50 with a mobo, mem, etc within it?
wj

[Keeper]

Inside is 16" wide X 15"high X 14" deep minus a shelf in the back of the frig that is 4 " X 6" by 15"

It would be Hard to say what it would maintain if it were used as a PC case, but I woulds guess 50F would be conservative.

I picked this one up in a pawn shop for $30, so I didn't mind drilling holes in it. The out side is 18 1/2"X18"X18

[wymjym]

pawn shops here I come.
wj

[Sproket]

Hey keeper

What type of pump and rad do you have. Specs please.
Thanks

[Keeper]

Pump

EHEIM Centrifugal Water Pump (115v AC) Model 1046:
79 gph centrifugal pump with a maximum head of 4 feet at only 5 watts.
Manufacturer's Specs:

Pump output: 300 l/h; 66 lmp. gal./h.; 79 U.S. gal./h.
Delivery head: 1,20 m/wat.col.; 3 ft. 11 in./wat.col.
Power consumption: 5 W
Hose connection (suction side): O13mm (1/2")
Hose connection (pressure side): O11mm (3/8")
Dimensions: (lenght x width x height) 145 x 75 x 103mm; 5.7 x 3 x 4.1 in.

Rad

Maxxxpert 120mm radiator

Copper tubing/ aluminum fins
Measures 145 L x120 w x 102mm h
10mm tube connections (8mm tubing fits nice and snug)

[Sproket]

Thats not much GPH Keeper. I would think if I get a pump that is much stronger then I would stay a little cooler.
What you think?

Sproket

[Sproket]

Im looking at the Eheim 1250 which has 6.5 ft head and 317 gph.
Runs underwater or out of water.

[Sproket]

is the Swiftech MCP300 Inline Water Pump any good?

[Keeper]

I might go to the 1250 pump for next project, but don't know what the real advantage will be.

Faster water moves, less time to cool or absorb heat, learned that with with big block 454cui bowtie. high capacity water pump made it run hotter. Not sure it works that way with a CPU though.

[Sproket]

well keeper this water cooling is new to me BUT i have been around PC's, server's and salt water tanks my whole life.

This pc liquid/water cooling is just like the salt tank i built years ago. Actually same pumps and sump/res.

The MCP300 does like 330 gph and the 1250 eheim does 317 gph.

Not sure about the head of the MCP300.
but 1250 E. is 6.5 ft.

Next ? would be is the 1/2" of the MCP300 a true 1/2?

need more data.

Keeper you are helping me make my system cool and I thank you.
Will take pics when its time to build.

Sproket

[wymjym]

I was using a 1046 (rated at xxxgph) but measured at 90oz per min, 42gph through my chiller (http://westech.home.mindspring.com/chiller/mychiller.htm) with 3/8 line. Upgraded to a noname rated 195gph measured 51gph 3/8 line same temps. Then plugged in a 1250, measured 54gph with 3/8....and 58gph with 1/2. Tried a maxijet1200, measured 64 gph with 1/2 line.
After all of that: the maxijet was best and it pulled my cpu temp down by an average of 1 degree C. I put the noname 195 back in the res and decided to use the other pumps for other things.
Keeper, the 1250 makes lots-o-heat and vibrates quite a bit.
wj

[DaGooch]

Originally posted by Sproket
Next ? would be is the 1/2" of the MCP300 a true 1/2?
Sproket

The Swiftech MCP300 is designed for 3/8" internal and 1/2" outside diameter tubing. For 1/2" inside diameter tubing you will require John Guest fittings part # PI251612S.

[Keeper]

DaGoochMeister
What Raid card are you using? I wanted to wait for Abit to put out a Nforce with ata raid, but it seems those are things of the past now. I want a water cooled nforce for my next project.

[Keeper]

Here are a few more Pic's of my setup.

http://nerdsforjesus.org/PC%20page.htm

[Sproket]

I think this is a good idea, someone out there must of already tried this. Im considering water cooling but it will get exspensive, like $300 for a good system including White Water.

I was going to get a Dorm Refrig to put the rad, res, and pump in there. But then I was thinking about condensation and then I thought WHY NOT make the Frig my computer case. Everything gets cold, SB, NB, CPU, Memory, all chips, everything. I would use round IDE cables and put cdrom and dvd burner outside of frig. Everything else inside. Power supply could go outside also if necessary.

??What you think, dont have to worry about condensation and only cost $78.00 for a brand new Dorm Frig at Lowes! ??

Thats another thing I found out. I was calling Pawn shops and Applaince stores and newspaper, evryone wants forty dollars or more for a used Frig. Lowes has them brand new and they use 285-321 Kwh per year. Thats 26.11 per year based on 8.5 cents per kwh.
Maybe better than using an older one that consumes more energy!

Sproket

[wymjym]

yeh, I'm go'in for it too. I looked around and agree a new one can be had at Wal-Mart and also Costco for 70~80 new. I also called a couple of pawns and decided new was worth the extra bucks.
This will be a test unit for me. If it works...then after all the improvements I have in mind I'll get one of those stainless units and build a cool front face.....or maybe I'll get a micro case just to house the cd+hdd+floppy and run an umbilical to the main fridge.
Looks like a new direction...then after a while of course we can run a tec or two to cool the water even lower.
wj

[Sproket]

The specs on this Haier Model HSP02WNAWW say that it will chill to 33 Degree F. now thats cold. It has a mini freezer you could just tear off the freezer door and that would keep it very cold in there. Do you think the PSU can handle the cold?

Wow I see a new future for computer cases and cooling.
I have seen Vapor Cool cases for around $600.00
Now a $80.00 frig can do the same thing. Hmmmm...

[Keeper]

You need to remember your fridg will run 24/7, I don't know what conditions they base those usage spec's, but you can bet it was not 24/7.

It would be a good idea to water proof your board and cards if you were to use a fridg as a case, because you can't help getting condensation on any parts that exceed the dew point factor.

[wymjym]

I would use the freezer section to hold a container of water(antifreeze pleaese) that would be pumped throught the blocks.
If that internal difference stayed around 8degreesF there should be no condensation issues. The only problem I can see at this point (and there will be many) is the fridge must run 24/7. This is a problem to my waste not want not attitude.
The mobo etc, since they will never be colder than the inside of the fridge will not condense.
wj

[Sproket]

Not sure if this matters but I live in Phoenix, AZ and we have no moisture and it does not get cold here.

[wymjym]

it matters to you, higher heat load to try to cool the thing and also less chance of condensation. Keeper gets pretty warm where he is also.
wj

[Sproket]

It is Dry as Dirt here.
:)

[Keeper]

You will have to run blocks on CPU, GPU and the northbridge, those three will exceed the dew point threshold.

[DaGooch]

Originally posted by Keeper
DaGoochMeister
What Raid card are you using? I wanted to wait for Abit to put out a Nforce with ata raid, but it seems those are things of the past now. I want a water cooled nforce for my next project.

I am using an old PROMISE FASTTRAK100 TX2 Raid controller. What I really want is the PROMISE FASTTRAK SX4000 with 4 Western Digital 8MB drives. :D

There are some rumors with an Epos 8RDA5+ with SATA Raid capabilities. :cool:

[Keeper]

Thanks DaGoochMeister, I don't want to test the sata drives, and I don't want to wait either. Whats a boy to do?

[wymjym]

Originally posted by Keeper
You will have to run blocks on CPU, GPU and the northbridge, those three will exceed the dew point threshold.

Please explain.
condensation forms on a cold surface within a warmer environment....so if the environment (the inside of the fridge) is 45 degrees and you turn on the computer (with the heat generating pieces being a mobo,mem,cpu,videocard, etc) the only condensation I can see forming would be (possibly) on the walls of the fridge but if you don't open and close the fridge door that air should be pretty darn dry anyway.
wj

[Sproket]

Hey Keeper-

Do you have a Air Release tube in your computer. Yano a tube with a valve at the highest point of your water system?
I did not see one in your setup and you never have any problems with air bubbles or pockets?

I cant wait to get this Frig cooling like what you have. Fun Fun.

ALSO very important...

How did you install your Block on your mobo?
I was thinking of putting some silicone behind the cpu on the mobo and one the back of the mobo where the cpu socket is. Also run a bead around the socket itself. Maybe even use dielectric (spelling) grease on CPU pins. And what about somethng between the CPU and block like a piece of rubber. Something to protect the resister's. I think some may call it a shim.

Thanks
Sproket

[Sproket]

Im not sure which way Im going to go yet but I will be using a frig like Keeper is doing or as a computer case. If I go with the computer case idea I was planning on doing this.

Now I was thing of keeping my volcano 7+ on the cpu and keeping my vantec on the NorthBridge and making the frig my case. Put everything inside except Cdrom, floppy, and maybe PSU.
The volcano 7 should keep the cpu cool and help on condensation from occuring. Without the heatsink and fan you would just have a hot CPU hitting the cold air. Now I can see that causing a problem. Actually you may want to put hinksinks and fans on all chips. CPU, NB, SB, Video card(GPU), etc.

Also you may want to use dyelectric grease on CPU pins and AGP slot and any card in a pci or isa.


Hmmmmm..
I did find a brand new Mini-frig for $40 in the paper. Its only 6 months old but its 2.5ft x 2' Now thats just to big. :(

Sproket

[Keeper]

wymjym, condensation will form on anything that produces heat in excess of about 12C from ambient. The whole mother board will be producing heat, at least three maybe four components will exceed that 12C, the CPU, GPU, NB and possibly the SB. The air in the fridge would have to be able to maintain a less than about 12C difference with all those components to avoid condensation. That’s not likely without a direct source of cooling like a water block, I doubt a regular HS would be enough.

Sproket, no tube on my system, I completely submerged the pump for 24hours before using it to cool, and have had no problems with air.

I don’t have any insulation on my blocks, I just monitor it continually to make sure the case temps don’t get high enough to cause condensation. I had insulation on the tubes and blocks when I first set it up, but found they we not needed as long as I could keep the case temps 12C or lower than the dew point. That happened after putting blocks on the GPU, my case temps dropped significantly.

[wymjym]

Hi Keeper,
Moisture will form only on a cold surface, the cpu etc will certainly heat things up a bit and a hs on each of those items will help them cool down better (I was planning on water cooling anyway). But since they are hot and the mobo is warm then the condensation will form on the fridge coils not the computer stuff.


Sproket, make sure the hdd is out of that cold environment also, it is mechanical and won’t like to spin up if cold.
wj

I copied this explanation from howstuffworks.com
This site really makes sense of simple (and complicated) things.

If you have an old refrigerator or one of the small dorm refrigerators, you know all about the frost that forms around the coils that cool the freezer. If you let it build up long enough, the frost can get 6 inches thick and eventually there is no room to put anything in the freezer.
This frost forms when water vapor hits the cold coils. The water vapor condenses -- turns to liquid water. Think of the water beading up on a glass of iced tea on a summer day -- that is an example of water vapor in the air condensing. The same thing happens on the ice-cold freezer coils, except that when the water condenses onto the coils it immediately freezes.

[Keeper]

I may be wrong, but I would imagine that the areas near the CPU, GPU, NB, SB and RAM will be considerably colder than the components themselves, the heat generated from those components may cause condensation around them if not controlled.

The only time I have found condensation on my setup is when I turn it off over night and the temps drop to -0C. If my water temps drop below -8C I will find condensation around the GPU, it will form near by, so it may be a factor when the whole MB is in a cold environment.

Take a glass of hot water and put in a freezer. These little fridges with a fan inside will get a lot colder than -0C. They are rated without air moving inside. The fan on my RAD makes the whole fridge a freezer unless I have enough heat from the PC to prevent it. It will freeze solid a gallon of water in about 6 hours with the PC off. The only thing keeping it above freezing is the water it is cooling.

Its something I think you will need to test before parking you MB inside.

[wymjym]

yeh testing will certainly be involved.
maybe I should start with a P-100 but then the heat generating abilities won't come into play.
I've got an athlon 1330 that can get pretty hot....maybe that will be the one to start with.
My ultimate goal is to end up with a pretty stainless case (fridge) and have a see through window (can you say triple pains) with no insulation goop smeared around.
Time will tell.
wj

[Sproket]

Keeper you have been helpful once more.
Thank You.

[wymjym]

Yet another though:
Once the fridge+mobo is assembled and functioning if the door to the fridge isn't opened and closed then most if no all of the moisture that was suspended in the air would have already condensed and would be frozen against the coils. Basically 0% humidity. Then regardless of temps if the moisture frozen against the coils doesn't thaw then there cannot be any further condensation.
How does that sound?
wj

[Keeper]

That may very well be the case, but what happens if there is a power failure, the ice will turn to water in short order. I have insulated my sensor to prevent mine from turning off,so thats easy enough. Build a pan under the coils for run off if power fails, and lets give it a try, probobly the only way we will know for sure, unless someone who has tried it comes in and tells us different.

[wymjym]

Keeper,
Is there a chance that you could/would put a 100 watt light bulb in your fridge someday and document what the temps do?
wj

[Keeper]

My radiator keeps the fridge from operating at spec ratings. If I turn off my PC the temps drop below freezing within minutes. Within an hour ambient temps will be at -8C. I have a ½ gallon reservoir inside that will drop from 17C to -8C in less than 6 hours.

With my CPU overclocked 2600+/333 @ 2479mghz the -8C water will keep the CPU at 14C and gradually increases to 19C in two hours. The temps level out at 21C water temp and 32C CPU temp which my setup will maintain as long as the Fridge is running. I run the system 24/7 @ 2367mghz with a constant water temp @ 16-17C and the CPU @ 27-30C depending on CPU activity (30C under load).

From time to time while gaming for hours with room temps reaching close to 80F the water temps have got as high as 21C but the CPU will still maintain about 30C.

I had one of my temp sensors in the fridge at one time and depending on its location in the fridge I would get 2C near the freezer and 15C farthest from the freezer while under load.

My load is cooling CPU, GPU, and NB with ½ Gallon reservoir of distilled water alcohol and antifreeze. I also have a pump and 120mm fan running inside the fridge.

[wymjym]

Keeper,
what I gather from your experiance is that your fridge, while acting as a water chiller, can..in the worse case senario maintain 21C water temps. or 70f in a 80f room.
Is that correct?
If yes then it looks like the additional load of the mobo(memory-sbridge-power mosfets- other heat emitting semiconductors) would push it higher and closer to room temps.
I was hoping for an operating environment (within the fridge) of around 40~45f (5~8c).
thoughts?
wj

[Keeper]

Thats correct, I was hoping for better, but 10 dergrees cooler than room temperature is all I can get.

With a little help I can maintain 14C water temps buy placing 2 1/2 gal. containers of frozen water in the door of the fridge. They will keep the temps down to 14C for 12 hours. So right now I keep two in the deep freeze and two in the fridge and switch them every twelve hours. If I turn off my PC at night they will both be frozen solid in the A.M.

I am looking for a new solution for my next upgrade, but I agree with you in that the additional heat load would push it higher.

[wymjym]

I just looked in the rafters and found an old dehumidifier (used to live in humid Houston). It is old R-12 so I can't afford to crack the coils but it is rated at 7A-115V. Haven't pulled it down yet but It was capable of drying out a 11200 cubic ft room (from90% down to 30%) in 4 hours. Will need to open it up and see the compressor specs. I guess I should put its cold coils in a ice chest and build for testing purposes.


maybe you could upgrade your fridge by making it a hybred. Add an aircooled pelt to the mix to help maintain 14C underload?

wj

[wymjym]

Keeper,
Since you run the fridge 24/7 but not the computer why not place some containers within the fridge filled with water? That way when the computer is shut down the extra cooling will be put to use (freeze the water). Your next day’s cooling cycle will then have the additional cooling afforded by the frozen water. You might see several degrees cooler.
wj

[Keeper]

For the most part the PC does run 24/7, I have turned it off when leaving town on biz, those times the fridge is also off. I turn the PC off from time to time for hardware changes and to get my reservoir to -8C for benching. I also have a 1 gallon res I use sometimes for benching that gives me another hour with the CPU 19C or lower.

[wymjym]

oh,
just trying to get more without spending more.
wj

[Keeper]

I have a guy at the local fridge repair shop looking for a freezer for me to build a water chiller for my next project. My wife is holding me back from buying a Prom. My home office has three PC's in it now, justifying cost is always a comprimise.

[wymjym]

Originally posted by Keeper
justifying cost is always a comprimise.

yep,
wj