best fluid for chiler cooling?

[giorgioprimo]

I wold like to know which fluid have more potential to go under-zero without freezing.

Usually I use this:

http://www.flselenia.it/commonfile/im_scat_web/1655GD_s.jpg it is anti-freeze for car radiator... I use it in a solution of 80% plus 20% water and i have the liquid @35 °C ....if i go lower the liquid freeze around -40°C....

i was wondering if there is some fluid that can allow me to to run the system under -40 °C without freezing.

i was wondering if denatured alcohol http://img.kelkoo.com/it/medium/865/835/0076620290957586488205476429650591835865.jpg could be a nice solution ..I mean lower point of freezing and enough cooling properties...
And what about mixing the "Paraflu" with denatured alcohol?
All suggestion are welcome...

[ncc-1709]

i found vodka worked , but pricy and quite a lot alcohol content.

basically the antifreeze pure, with alcohol to thin it down, and it will also decrease the freezing temperature.

[epion2985]

Antifreze is horrible, its thick and is not that great at moving heat. hard on your pump and thickens fast under 0C. Its not meant to be used straight but cut with water, which in a chiller would freze, they are not made to be ran at such low temperatures. In extreem conditioins they are ok to start with, but as the engine warms up the operatiing temperatures go up. Its not mean to be "ran" that cold.

Vodka is a stupid choise but the right direction. Its just ethanol cut with water and TAXED because its drinkabale, which makes it not that great and expencive.

Denatured alcohol is the way to go. Its ethanol with a little additive that makes it not drinkabale, its not taxed like vodka is so its cheap, and its not cut with water. It takes longer to pull down then water but its worth it, it stay very fluid at -50C and below. Frezing point around -117C. Good stuff and cheap.

[ncc-1709]

trying to get hold of the stuff in the uk is dificult. know of any shops?

[Contero]

Denatured? Well in the US you can get it in any hardware shop in the paint thinner section. I'm not sure about the UK but I have no idea why they wouldn't have it.

[h2ocooler]

Is methanol and ethanol similar? because Methylated Sprits is Methanol based! (and sometimes Ethanol)
got a feeling that we call denatured alcohol meths!

[epion2985]

Not the same thing.

As far as moving heat they are pretty close.

ethanol alcohol
capacity (molecular weight is 46 mole)

methanol alcohol
capacity (molecular weight 32mole)

Viscosity wise dont remember but very close.

I think methanol is a bit more corrosive to sertain substances.

Contero can fill in here, he might know a little more about these two.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Methanol = DEADLY. Fumes toxic, handling on skin toxic. Use extreme care when dealing with this stuff

Ethanol = drunk, but they dentur it with a additive that makes you sick if you drink it. So do handle it with great care as well but it is by fare safer then Methonol.

[Contero]

Denatured alcohol is 90% ethanol, with 9% methanol and 1% of some other junk to make it undrinkable. It's meant to be used as a paint thinner and that's probably where you'll be most likely to find it.

When I was googling for the specific heat capacity of ethanol I came across this page, which I give my B in general chemistry seal of approval.

http://www.koolance.com/technical/cooling101/002.html

Methanol is about twice as good at conducting heat as ethanol, but they have basicly the same heat capacities. Water still blows them both out of the... water :p: .

I really don't know of any cheap and easy sources of methanol even if you did want to go that route. Like xeon said, it's not a very friendly liquid.

Also, according to that link hydrogen has extremely high thermal conductivity and heat capacity. Forget nitrogen! I'm going to make a sealed case with hydrogen! :explode:

[Nefilav]

Try the Home Depot or the UK equivalent for methanol in the paint section. It may be listed as "methyl hydrate" which is just the chemical name for it. I got 4 liters of the stuff for dirt cheap, 6$.

It is very toxic though so seal off the chiller because it likes to evaporate before water will and the fumes have very low flashpoint and this would result eventually in your coolant freezing due to less methanol or a miniature mushroom cloud!

I know it is corrosive but under what conditions or extent I have never had firsthand experience other then stainless steel not being corroded in my alcohol fueled chemistry burner. It attacks the oxide coatings on aluminum and copper, our two favorite metals; the salts from that then eat the metal from what I've read.

[ncc-1709]

and thats where my problem lies. my resiovoir is a solid block of solid foam. nothing else holding it in. so if it eats it away, i aint got anything holding the liquid back.:eek:

[ixtapalapaquetl]

It was my understanding that windshield wiper fluid was methanol based.

[n00b 0f l337]

i found vodka worked , but pricy and quite a lot alcohol content.
Does that actually work.

[Contero]

It was my understanding that windshield wiper fluid was methanol based.

It contains about 25% methanol IIRC

[jaguarking11]

Does that actually work.

I doubt it. For example some of the strongest vodca is 150-170proof witch would make it diluted with water in the 75alcohol/25% crap to 85%/15% witch is still higher than pure alcohol.

So in contrast your paying 4-10X the price for diluted alcohol than you would be ppaying for paint thiner.

I doubt the vodca goes below -30C. In the resturant where I worked we made vodca slushies with lemon juice. And that only took -25c or so for 1hour to 1.5hours.

[ixtapalapaquetl]

mixing chart (http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals/faq_answer.asp?typeID=3&is_header=N) of freeze points note toxic substance so read the MSDS sheets.Great link! It would seem that whatever liquid you choose, you would want to maximize the H20 content (for thermal properties) while staying below your chiller's lowest temps. My 70 ethanol/30 H20 (arrived at experimentally) looks pretty good.

[epion2985]

Does that actually work.

yes, I tried it, just not very well. It still frezzes pretty easy. I'd stick with atleast 80% to 100% ethanol and the rest water, unlese you have 100% ethanol which is fine too.

[Nefilav]

Methanol plus a corrosion inhibitor would work better then ethanol due to the better heat transfer. If inhibitors didnt stop methanol from eating away copper, it would never be used in antifreeze and windshield washer fluids.

It is still toxic and volatile though.

Distilled water+methanol+Zerex super coolant?

[vintage_guitar]

lollerskatez doctorninja? i mean, methanol is a very good coolant, (i use it in my chiller)

[epion2985]

never said methanol was a bad coolant, just not very friendly or easy to work with.

What kind of inhibitors did you have in mind Nefilav?

Does methanol have any corrosive effects on tygon and other plastics?

[Nefilav]

Ive got a piece of PVC Clearflex soaking in it...if anything is supposed to happen I think it would have already. Tygon may be different, I am new to watercooling in general, used peltier+air on P2's and P3's before. Peltiers no longer cut it with air, although with the low wattage Conroe, 65 nanometer chips may be very good with peltier+water, chiller temps but compact and versatile.

My Iwaki is due in 2 weeks, so whatever problems I have can be posted here as a heads up to others.

Zerex super coolant (it seems to be highly recommended for mixed metal loops here and in other watercooling websites) stops corrosion and methanols corrosion is not unique really...if my evaporator bursts for no reason I will take it back.

My reputation on Diablo II follows me everywhere :woot:

[epion2985]

ditto on the pelts, they are a dying breed going the way of the beta tapes.

[Nefilav]

Back on topic, methanol is more dangerous but no sort of flammable liquid should be left unsupervised with something dumping heat into it.

I've had only one methanol vapor fireball in my lifetime, but it was enough. Building a chiller using either methanol or ethanol warrants a fire extinguisher and some relay switches to shut the PC+pump off should the A/C ever fail and no one is around to do it manually.

If the choice of reservoir is cut off from oxygen and insulated nicely there will not be any problems. As I see it, the biggest drawback of methanol is the increased toxicity but assuming the proper safety measures for the uncontrolled heat dump are there, the toxicity problem is null.

[epion2985]

I still rather not deal with it. Ethanol, cut with a little water to stabilize it a bit is just fine by me. The gain between the two in a chiller is probbably one degree if that much, not worth the fuss.

[giorgioprimo]

I still rather not deal with it. Ethanol, cut with a little water to stabilize it a bit is just fine by me. The gain between the two in a chiller is probbably one degree if that much, not worth the fuss.

what about ZEREX plus ETHANOL?

[epion2985]

what about ZEREX plus ETHANOL?

Why? Ethanol is not corrosive like methanol, doesnt really need inhibitors, and water instead will be better for preformance and would make ethanol less suseptibale to combustion. I see no reason for Zerex.

[giorgioprimo]

Why? Ethanol is not corrosive like methanol, doesnt really need inhibitors, and water instead will be better for preformance and would make ethanol less suseptibale to combustion. I see no reason for Zerex.

well....you are right..so 80% ethanol, 20% distilled water will ensure -50 °C without freezing..... ?

[Contero]

Hmm, interesting though. With methanol you have to mix less with water to keep it from freezing, which means more conductivity on top of methanol's already higher conductivity.

65% ethanol for freezing to -40
40% methanol goes to -40.

Oh forget it! I'll try both.

[epion2985]

that changes things a bit. If you can use significantly less methanol meaning more water it should be pretty stable. Wonder what inhibitors would work well besides this Zerex.

[Contero]

Out of boredom / curiosity I wanted to see what 40% vs 65% would look like and I figured I'd share it if anyone was curious like me.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2633/ethanol7rf.gif

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9858/methanol3rq.gif

And I'm not sure if these calculations make sense in real world application, but I just proportioned out the thermal conductivities by the volume proportions. The numbers were taken from my link up above.

.2345 H2O (contributing at 35%)
0.091 Ethanol (at 65%)

0.33 total watts per meter kelvin for ethanol mixture at -40c min.

0.42 H2O (60%)
0.1 Methanol (40%)

0.52 total watts per meter kelvin for methanol mixture at -40c min.

[epion2985]

It may frezze at -40C but what is its viscosity? That plays a large role. I have ran across some software that has a database of chemicals and materials and you can mix and match and see the results. But cant find it. Would be good for testing coolants, like hm, 50/50 water/methanol, what would be viscosity across the spectrum from 0C to -50C, what would be the heat capacity, heat transfer properties. I should have never deleted the app, deffinetly feel sorry I did now lol.

Although if you know chemistry pretty well you should be able to calculate these things.

With the corrosion preventing inhibitors more like 40/50/10 methanol/water/inhibitors

[Nefilav]

I have not seen big bottles of ethanol for sale anywhere, other then the liquor store :)

Purely by math, methanol > ethanol but toxic+corrodes metals. Its mostly like the choice between liquid metal and AS5, or simple phase change vs those exploding cascade things. You get more but with some risk, whether you are prepared to deal with it is another story.

[Contero]

I have not seen big bottles of ethanol for sale anywhere, other then the liquor store :)

Did you try the paint store, or the paint section of any home improvement place? Denatured should be around the paint thinners.

[Nefilav]

Yes...I'm going with methanol because the corrosiveness is a solvable problem and methanols toxicity is only an issue when it can potentially explode, same as ethanol.

If a highly flammable vapor is floating around an area is the toxicity really that important?

Iwakis have a thermal overload protection and mine will be relayed to the PC so it will shut down long before the methanol can evaporate to dangerous levels (assuming a 10,000 BTU air conditioner cant handle the pittance of load I put on it) and it would still be confined to the sealed up beer cooler.

[epion2985]

I have not seen big bottles of ethanol for sale anywhere, other then the liquor store :)

or simple phase change vs those exploding cascade things. You get more but with some risk, whether you are prepared to deal with it is another story.

What contero said, I think he found some at our local hardware store, OSH I think. Should be under the name "denatured alcohol" in the paint section with paint thiners. You wont find pure ethanol very easily, and its much more expencive, but not any better for cooling, just better for drinking :)

There is no risk with a cascade. No more then with a DD, and no more then with a rock in your driveway. If it explodes then you did not make a cascade you made a bomb and you are an idiot. Made properly they wont explode. Thats why you build your system with construction and components rated for the pressures you will have. And to protect against the *idiot* factor we have cut out switches, blow off valves, expantion tanks, and of coarse a safty margin on the loop max pressure vs the pressure it will actually see. Cascades dont blow up, idiots make cascades blow up.



(assuming a 10,000 BTU air conditioner cant handle the pittance of load I put on it) and it would still be confined to the sealed up beer cooler.

10,000 BTU's ? Jesus what are you cooling?? Little overkill there lol...

[boshuter]

I just use the windshied washer fluid rated for -37c.... how man chillers realisticly maintain temps below that when loaded? People tend to overestimate the temps on chillers.

[Nefilav]

Windshield washer fluid typically has methanol over glycols for the lower viscosity in it but a bunch of detergent to do the washing so I skipped on it and got 99.99% pure methanol.A 10,000 BTU will not cool things to a lower temperature, I know this already but it can pull down a nice big reservoir of coolant quickly for my whole day...I can hook it up to a temp monitor that could shut it on and off as necessary.

Very silent chiller the ghetto way. The rotary isnt even noisy from the 10,000 BTU. Replacing the jet engine fan could be done with a bunch of the NMB 115 CFM fans. Ill try to use the AC with a shroud and some heavy foam attic insulation on it (other then the fresh air supply to it) to muffle vibration.

I have a 5000 BTU stripped and insulated ready to go as well but the compressor noise is a higher pitch and annoying to the point where I dont even want to test it when i get my subzero temp probe.

I could buy an industrial compressor, a vacuum pump, gauges, hoses, refridgerant bottle and gas it up with BBQ propane or R134a from compressed air cans but I honestly feel I dont know enough to make it safer, or more effective then the ACs currently ready to be used. Quietness is no use to one who has his arms blown off.

Then there is the cost of the aforementioned parts. I can leave breaking records with a chiller to you and others with HVAC experience Epion; for now I will learn to crawl before I learn to walk.

The methanol is something I have used before as fuel and for experiments. Its safe if you know the dangers and have experience. I am setting my chiller up so that if the AC fails, the heat sources (pump+PC) will shut off at -5 or 0 or 5+, depending on how low my chiller can go. Methanol will not reach its flashpoint and will stay cold for at least 24 hours so I can get back to it and fix the problem. A person who purchased a LiquidFrostByte literally let a pump melt inside a tank of flammable coolant due to no relays according to his pictures and did not get blinded or killed by the fumes, he was very lucky that it didnt explode.

To be honest, I feel a heat source+any form of flammable coolant is a risk but there is no magic solution other then 3M's 1000$/gallon liquids...which happen to eat away plasticizers. This drawback is what keeps chillers from beating out DD phase.

[epion2985]

Windshield washer fluid typically has methanol over glycols for the lower viscosity in it but a bunch of detergent to do the washing so I skipped on it and got 99.99% pure methanol.A 10,000 BTU will not cool things to a lower temperature, I know this already but it can pull down a nice big reservoir of coolant quickly for my whole day...I can hook it up to a temp monitor that could shut it on and off as necessary.

Very silent chiller the ghetto way. The rotary isnt even noisy from the 10,000 BTU. Replacing the jet engine fan could be done with a bunch of the NMB 115 CFM fans. Ill try to use the AC with a shroud and some heavy foam attic insulation on it (other then the fresh air supply to it) to muffle vibration.

I have a 5000 BTU stripped and insulated ready to go as well but the compressor noise is a higher pitch and annoying to the point where I dont even want to test it when i get my subzero temp probe.

I could buy an industrial compressor, a vacuum pump, gauges, hoses, refridgerant bottle and gas it up with BBQ propane or R134a from compressed air cans but I honestly feel I dont know enough to make it safer, or more effective then the ACs currently ready to be used. Quietness is no use to one who has his arms blown off.

Then there is the cost of the aforementioned parts. I can leave breaking records with a chiller to you and others with HVAC experience Epion; for now I will learn to crawl before I learn to walk.

The methanol is something I have used before as fuel and for experiments. Its safe if you know the dangers and have experience. I am setting my chiller up so that if the AC fails, the heat sources (pump+PC) will shut off at -5 or 0 or 5+, depending on how low my chiller can go. Methanol will not reach its flashpoint and will stay cold for at least 24 hours so I can get back to it and fix the problem. A person who purchased a LiquidFrostByte literally let a pump melt inside a tank of flammable coolant due to no relays according to his pictures and did not get blinded or killed by the fumes, he was very lucky that it didnt explode.

To be honest, I feel a heat source+any form of flammable coolant is a risk but there is no magic solution other then 3M's 1000$/gallon liquids...which happen to eat away plasticizers. This drawback is what keeps chillers from beating out DD phase.


I would agree, windshield washer fluid has to many things in it that are not benificial to moving heat, and no wonder, thats not its purpose. Methanol + water seems to be the best solution.

Its not 10,000 BTU, its BTU / hour. BTU is just a measure of energy and means nothing, if the ac is just 10,000 BTU's then all that tells you is that it can move that amount of energy but how fast, a day, a month a year? BTU / hour is what they are normaly rated at. But I have to admit alot of notation from resellers is messed up in that way too, on the bright side its almost always per hour.

10,000 BTU/h does not mean you can remove alot of heat very fast. In a way it does but there is more to it. I can have a 5000 BTU/h unit pull your rez down much faster then a 10,000 BTU/h unit. The metering device makes a big difference. More restrictive lower temperatures, less restrictive faster pulldown. If your metering device is to restrictive it doesnt matter if you have a 100,000 BTU/h compressor, you will be starving the evap and wont pull down fast. You dont need a large compressor to pull down fast.

But I feel you on the noise factor, if power costs are not important and your 10k BTU/h unit is quieter sounds like the one to go with.

On the melting pump note thats why I would sugest you never put the pump in the coolant. If it is external and it does melt hopefully the motor meltdown in the back of the pump wont get close enough to the coolant in the impeller housing up front. Although I dont see how it would ever melt down if you dont turn the pump on when the compressor is not not. Infact wire it so the pump can not be turned on without the compressor being on, that way you wont risk the pump accidentaly being turned on.

Good job on the temp cut of switch, fail-safe devices are great.


I just use the windshied washer fluid rated for -37c.... how man chillers realisticly maintain temps below that when loaded? People tend to overestimate the temps on chillers.

Just bcause you never made a low temp chiller doesnt mean others dont. Infact there is a chiller does -47C no load and -40C with load for sale right now in the Sale section. And have seen them go lower.

The things with chillers are the information is a bit misleading. Its not that chillers dont go as low as DD's, its just that DD's are the trend right now and the only people making chillers are people who are new to refrigeration and just bent up an AC unit because they dont know how to make their own. That makes it seem that chillers cant run as cold as DD's which is very wrong. It harder to make a low temp chiller yes but it can be done if you know what you are doing.

[boshuter]

Well I never said it couldn't be done... I asked how many actually do. Those temps on the one for sale do not mention what it is cooling. I have a pretty decent dd and past 5.2ghz or so it will just fall on it's face trying to cool my 950es, I'm sure I could bolt it to my gpu and claim some great loaded temps. I know chillers can get cold, I have 2 Neslab commercial cascade chillers that are rated at -110c. They will both be converted to dd.

[epion2985]

I have 2 Neslab commercial cascade chillers that are rated at -110c. They will both be converted to dd.

I hope you burn in hell for this.

[Nefilav]

Yeah I bent up two AC's...I will do the pulldown test when my Iwaki arrives...MD20RLZ since my plan is to add a video card block and something more far-fetched. Would have gotten a smaller MD RLZ if not, crazy expensive pump its costing 80% of my chiller budget!

Using a heatercore or BIX in the end of the loop as a cold air blower...or at least
to cool my room which is a sauna in the summer regardless of an AC dumping heat into the room (it will be dumping it outside)

Kill two birds with one stone assuming the bigger AC can handle it. I think the high pitched compressor in the smaller one can be muffled with some insulating foam nicely if the bigger one dies. AC's are easy to get anyways, suburbs have lots of them now that people fire them up to test for summer and find it not working...found 2 gassed up but with busted capacitors, so just a capacitor switch and its good as old and thrown on the sidewalk hehe :clap:

[epion2985]

you also need a nuke power plant to run them chillers

Well if you have a cascade it will draw the same power weather it is cooling a liquid that cools the heat sources or if it is cooling the sources directly. The only difference directly you will get a little colder, how much depends how well the chiller is made, the difference can be fairly small.

You have to think about application as well. If you want to bench then a cascade dd is better suited for your use as the size, the power draw, the noise, none of these things matter as the location can be your garage and the operational duration at a time is fairly short. If you want to have a heavily overclock rig for gaming, graphic design, 3d parametric modeling, etc whatever your usses are, then a chiller is a much better solution as you can cool your cpu and two cards quietly with a fairly small compressor down to -50C under load if you build it well. So it all depends on the use. -50C of coarse is not easy but possible. I am hoping to get my coolant, with cpu and two cards overclocked under load, in the -40's C. We'll see how well that goes.

[Nefilav]

Good luck with it and what GPU blocks will you use? Acetal tops ?

To OP, just go with ethanol+water+something for corrosion if you have mixed metals, less dangerous if you haven't used methanol in any application previously.

I think the big one-up ethanol would have is the O-rings in the newer acetal blocks...Not sure if methanol eats those too and would corrosion inhibitors stop them from being eaten. Time to buy an O-ring and soak it in some methanol!

[epion2985]

Good luck with it and what GPU blocks will you use? Acetal tops ?

To OP, just go with ethanol+water+something for corrosion if you have mixed metals, less dangerous if you haven't used methanol in any application previously.

I think the big one-up ethanol would have is the O-rings in the newer acetal blocks...Not sure if methanol eats those too and would corrosion inhibitors stop them from being eaten. Time to buy an O-ring and soak it in some methanol!

I found an australian block I am considering and a few others for the two gpus.

Using a waterblock that is not brazed shut but has seals and o-rings is not very smart and asking for trouble. When they get cold the natural vibrations cause them to crack and the block leaks. If you must use a block that is two parts and a seal remove it and braze the block shut.

[Nefilav]

O-ring got demolished by my mix...same rubber as the Swiftech block. That 5$ save me a lot of money and grief later.

I try a bit of ethanol too, nothing.

Brass top Maze4 looks nice right now...no access to a CNC machine :(

[epion2985]

Waterblock - O ring + http://images.orgill.com/200x200/4244562.JPG + http://www.silfos.com/products/files/proddetailimages/handy_one_flux_cored_rods.jpg = WIN

[Nefilav]

Back on OT, I'd say the safest is ethanol+distilled water and something for corrosion if there is mixed metal.

Antifreeze gets all slushy and squishy and pumps have problems coping.

[epion2985]

I think we already reached that conclusion. Although its all relative. Safer then the same mix but with methanol instead of ethanol? Maybe. By much? No, not really. Flammability/Combustibility wise they are pretty much the same. They both evaporate at about the same rate. Methanol is a bit more corrosive but its not like night and day and with the right inhibitors there is no practical difference. Personaly I am going with methanol.

[SMa]

I found an australian block I am considering and a few others for the two gpus.

Using a waterblock that is not brazed shut but has seals and o-rings is not very smart and asking for trouble. When they get cold the natural vibrations cause them to crack and the block leaks. If you must use a block that is two parts and a seal remove it and braze the block shut.

So you think that a Swiftech Storm wouldn't be a good choice for a waterchilled rig?

[[XC] mysticmerlin]

So you think that a Swiftech Storm wouldn't be a good choice for a waterchilled rig?

No for 2 reasons
1. Cold will crack it
2. The fluid will thicken up and the storm is already restrictive.

[SMa]

... :(
I just ordered that one to take my first steps into the world of chilled liquid cooling...
Which one would you guys choose if you have to choose between these blocks
http://www.spacepromotion.nl/index.php?pnr=04&ctg=32
it's for a LGA-775

the Swiftech MCW6002-775 looks completly sealed?
or maybe the Apogee?

i thought it could only crack when the difference in temperature is to big between the inside and outside of the block, but isolation could fix this...

:edit:
according to this (http://www.systemcooling.com/images/reviews/LiquidCooling/Swiftech_Apogee/image24big.gif) the Apogee is less restrective than the MCW6002
what do you guys think?
if i find a fluid that won't react with the block, would it crack?
I think something like this: if you place a waterblock in the freezer, it wouldn't break. So why would it break if a cold (approx -20°C) fluid is pushed trough it with a thick layer of isolation around it?

:edit²:
according to the other results (http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-09.html) the MCW6002 is better than the Apogee
so I think I should chance my order to MCW6002
would this be a good choice?

[jinu117]

Don't usually visit this part of town but I gotta say, it will crack because of having derlin. It gets extremely brittle below 0c and becomes very suceptible to cracking.

[Contero]

6002 for sure. All the cool kids have them. All copper all the way.

[Nefilav]

A can of worms the GPU chiller block is.

Cheapest bet is soldering or brazing some sort of mount to MCW6000. Brazing may warp it if its done carelessly and on the whole it will be a hefty weight and put stress on the videocard

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/2097/foam0256lp.jpg

That will have problems fitting in SLI for sure

Is there a dead horse thread on chiller GPU blocks, or do the chiller gods braze together thier own?

Oh and sticking a waterblock inside a freezer does not subject it to the stress of being mounted and having somewhat higher PSI then normal...

[epion2985]

MCW6002 is the easiest option. There are some other blocks that would work better but they are two parts and need to be brazed shut.

[Nefilav]

Thats one insulated on my desk...I really dont like the thought of that thing hanging off my Radeon like a chimpanzee.

Ghetto guy wiring may be in order to avoid warping or snapping.

[Contero]

For my GPU block I'm planning on getting the brass top maze4.

[epion2985]

Thats one insulated on my desk...I really dont like the thought of that thing hanging off my Radeon like a chimpanzee.

Ghetto guy wiring may be in order to avoid warping or snapping.

Thats a cpu bock. I wouldnt use it for a card. To big, to heavy and I dont see it working with sli/crossfire. Get a brass top maze4 for or a Cyclone Fusion HL. Either one you will have to braze shut but its worth it.

Cyclone Fusion HL > maze4

[Nefilav]

Would be cheaper to modify an MCW6002 in Canada, but the weight problems...the brass Maze4 isnt exactly a lightweight either at 400 grams but its designed for the purpose.

Whats the weight on the Silverprop Fusion?

[epion2985]

Dont know, email them and ask.

http://www.silverprop.com/cyclonefusionhl.aspx

[vintage_guitar]

Maze4 > Silverprop :nono: ..However, for canadian shipping silverprop would probably be the better bet since it's mostly shipped internationally anyway. (AUS)

[epion2985]

Maze4 > Silverprop :nono: ..However, for canadian shipping silverprop would probably be the better bet since it's mostly shipped internationally anyway. (AUS)

preformance wise Silverprop Cyclone Fusion HL > Maze4, so said the wise MaxxxRacer when I asked him maze4 vs Silverprop Cyclone Fusion HL.


The Cyclone, while more restrictive, would be an excelent choice

[Nefilav]

Well thats what the Iwaki MD20RLZ is for...no sense in getting one and not getting high performance blocks.

Fusion will take a bit of time to get, in the meanwhile playing around with insulating the CPU and building a watercooled ram heatspreader can eat up the time nicely.

So Epion you will use the methanol now too? its no different, just wear gloves when handling it and keep things well ventilated and no sparks, common sense stuff. Industrial ethanol contains methanol and bitterant too, neither is pleasant if it evaporates into the area so the performing solution is better.

Methanol allows you to cut a lot more water into the mix, lessening the chances of fire or explosion a great deal.

If it was so corrosive, it wouldn't be widely used in antifreezes and windshield washer fluid with inhibitors.

[epion2985]

Well thats what the Iwaki MD20RLZ is for...no sense in getting one and not getting high performance blocks.

Fusion will take a bit of time to get, in the meanwhile playing around with insulating the CPU and building a watercooled ram heatspreader can eat up the time nicely.

So Epion you will use the methanol now too? its no different, just wear gloves when handling it and keep things well ventilated and no sparks, common sense stuff. Industrial ethanol contains methanol and bitterant too, neither is pleasant if it evaporates into the area so the performing solution is better.

Methanol allows you to cut a lot more water into the mix, lessening the chances of fire or explosion a great deal.

If it was so corrosive, it wouldn't be widely used in antifreezes and windshield washer fluid with inhibitors.


Not to rain on your parade but I was going to say if you are going to spend the money on an iwaki pump you would be damned to get anything but the new rd20 /30. I had an MD20 RLZ on order but then I forund out about the new RD's and man its no contest. The RD 20 / 30 are smaller, silent, dump alot less heat in to the loop, use less power, and preform so much better. I cansled my order and ordered an RD30. RD30 ran at about 18v is the best preformance with least powerdump ratio of any pump out there right now. I was even told by the place where I ordered the MD20 that iwaki told them they made the RD pumps specificaly for the PC watercooling industry. Sweet stuff. If you can get a return on your MD20 I'd recoment sending it back and getting the RD20 or 30. Just my 2 cents. We had a gorup buy you can read the thread in the liquid cooling section, the people who rodered the RD20's got them and the responce is phenomenal. RD30's will be in on the 29th. Although some people like fareastgq already have their RD30's and the pump is simply amazing. I am pulling my hair out waiting for mine. Just 10 more days untill fareastgq gets the shipment and probbably another week untill we will get them :hitself:


I wouldnt recomend cooling ram with your chiller. Cooling ram has been proven to do virtually nothing for you, and supercooling it has shown to have no effect. A fan is the most you would need if you must have something. You will actually hurt your overclock as the heat the ram will dump as well as more surface area to loose the cold to will bring up your temperatures up and hurt your temperatures where they count, ie your cpu/gpu.

Going with methanol and water. Since you seem to have expirience with it what type of inhibitors would you recomend? Zerex was mentioned, is that it or did you have better lick with something else?

[Nefilav]

Zerex is what the liquid cooling forum says works best...it is for racecars after all! I'm testing it at the moment in various proportions , will post pics in a bit.

Methanol corrosion works the same way as the other nastiness in watercooling loops so Zerex will handle it, do a test with something aluminum because thats what gets attacked the quickest (oxide layer gets eaten, then the salts created from it attack the metal).

Glycols are much more voracious metal eaters and seem to be put in a lot of additivies, including Zerex. I work with methanol because it wont slush and the toxicity is the least of the hazardous worries.

Wear rubber gloves, dont breathe the fumes when priming and make sure the chiller is airtight, as any sort of flammable vapor is dangerous with room temperature flashpoints. I'd recommend the same for industrial ethanol because the additives to make it unpotable aren't fun either.

As far as cancelling my MD20RLZ goes, no way. Prices in Canada for this sort of stuff are already horrible even though the Canadian dollar is at an all time high. Didn't see the mass order in time so cant save $$$$.
The PSU...got an electrician friend, so the cost of that is negated.
I asked about the RD-30 and to be honest, it feels like something that gives a tiny boost for a much bigger price tag with the flow rates in an MD20RLZ except if more then the CPU+GPU is being cooled.

RD-30 maybe next time ;)
I've got a good 5 years according to every WC forum person who has one to see what Iwaki comes up with...I'm not building a masterpiece, just trying to cost effectively get my PC performance for everyday things up. Thing is, the chiller is transferrable onto anything I buy later, making it much better cost wise (and fun to build).

Whatever I learn from it I will share with the people here.

[epion2985]

it feels like something that gives a tiny boost for a much bigger price tag with the flow rates in an MD20RLZ except if more then the CPU+GPU is being cooled.

RD-30 maybe next time

Well its not tiny but its true the better the preformance the higher the cost and its an exponential curve. No mystery there. Most people here would kill then trade in their soul for that extra 5 degrees ;)

Its not that I think an RD30 is a must, its just that if you are already spending $200 on an MD20 RLZ you might as well pay $45 more and get the RD30, it laughable and hilarious because of obvious absurdity or incongruity not to, imho.

[Nefilav]

50$ more, I wish...and the availability on the internet isnt too high unless I give my credit card information to the website due to being an international customer.

Cost of a PSU is negated for me, but its still rediculous...so, what metals are in your loop? just copper? Im trying out pennies and aluminum foil in various test tubes filled with all the variables of methanol, Zerex and distilled water.

I'd love to get an RD-30, maybe if theres another mass order to lower the price...not saying its not worth its regular cost over an MD20RLZ , but giving away credit card info?

Maybe Iwaki will improve on the RD-30 by the time I learn enough about phase change to not mess it up and build a super quiet, very good chiller. Until then theres lots of "broken" ACs lying around.

edit: as long as its not an Eheim im happy...actually got some firsthand knowledge, fixed an aquarium for a friend. How it fails at its supposed task is a mystery. Some have success with it, some don't...but zero complaints+high pressure+made for industrial applications > Eheim pumps

[epion2985]

$50 you wish? What are they going for anyway? I got mine for $250.

Giving away you credit card information? What are you talking about? Are you one of those people who are paranoid about shopping online? :rolleyes:

[Nefilav]

RD-30 literally goes for a price here that makes the MD20RLZ more cost effective even with having an electrician make a PSU for it for free...and go check any place with MD20RLZ in the USA. I should rent a mud hut on the US border to buy stuff from new egg and things like this.

Policy is credit card photographs, front and back for international customers.

I buy on ebay sometimes, havent been ripped off before. But ebay doesnt require you to put your credit card info out there.

That RD-30 mass order had none of that, so if I had come here sooner we wouldn't be having a pointless debate...its obviously better cost:performance when mass ordered and not price gouged :)

I observe ebay, im sure one may show up on there eventually.

http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/internationalinfoNEW.asp

[epion2985]

so what is the rd30 price there? Just curious.

[Nefilav]

500$ or so, at the time it shocked me too much to buy it despite it being better.
Your quote on budgets and how its always 50% over budget is true, but I stubbornly stick to them.
The credit card option is ugly too, I just missed out on the group buy by a day or so...teaches me to only read the chilled liquid forum I guess :)

After that I read the other ones and find useful info for my project as well.

Maybe Iwaki will come out with something good in a year, or there will be another group buy. Until then I dont feel I have been shortchanged and have a bad pump , Iwakis FTW!

We'll get both our pumps around the same time, so I am interested to see what beastly chiller you are preparing and I hope mine isnt that terrible, ha.

[epion2985]

$500, JESUSMOTHERF******CRIST. No kidding, I dont blame you for not getting one. Thats steep. I knew we got a good deal but didnt realize we got a 50% discount... at $250 a pop I thought we only got abour $50-$70 off, not $250 off.... damn.


This makes me appreciate my RD30 on a whole new level.

[Nefilav]

Well, its about that in the USA...50-70$ savings vs another buyer from USA who did not participate in the group buy, stuff just costs more here.

If an online store sold them for 300$ American without wanting credit card info, I'd so buy it over the MD20RLZ.

Got a feeling the GPU block will also end up being a big hassle, or a lot of $$$$. Will need to grab another MAPP gas tank+2 oxy tanks for sure if its to be brazed shut. I take soldering doesn't do the job for that kind of pressure, still got some propane and silver solder left but doubt its a good idea.