Some of you may not know what this is...

[Soulburner]

And some may:

http://home.neb.rr.com/soulburner/My%20Ride/Converter%201.jpg

http://home.neb.rr.com/soulburner/My%20Ride/Converter%202.jpg

Hands down best mod you can do for this car and you'd be surprised how many people don't know what they are or do. Surprises a lot of people who still think the 6-Speed trans is gods gift to racing :cool:

[conrad.maranan]

It's a torque convertor. What size is it? Stall speed?

Next upgrade for you should be lower gears for the rear end. :up:

[Soulburner]

Gears will stay stock...my traction is about to go from none to even less...if that's even possible. Plus I have no intention of putting a large dent in my mileage with a gear ratio change. The ratio is 3.23. At least I didn't get one of the 2.73 optioned cars.

The type is printed on the converter and the box. It's a 3600rpm stall, 2.5 STR converter. This is also going in with a fully built transmission so the car will be a whole new machine when it's done. It's going to drive nothing like stock anymore.

[D_o_S]

Um, how does it work, and what does it do?

[Cossey]

its a torque convertor. they are normally found in automatics they use paddles and a hydralic fluid to connect the input an output shafts this allows the car to be stopped with the brakes but stilled be revved so when the brakes are released the viscous action of the fluid transfers power from the input to the output.
its basically a drag racing mod, it is completely pointless for pretty much everything else. thats where you need the 6 speed.

[Soulburner]

Pretty good explanation. It's basically the piece that performs the action of the clutch in the automatic. It allows the engine to freely spin by "slipping" below a certain RPM range (built into the unit) much like what pressing the clutch in a manual achieves. This unit is a very high quality unit made by Yank, with a stall speed of 3600 RPM, an STR of 2.5 and best of all, a great shift extension. Normally when my tranny goes into 2nd the RPMs will drop real low, somewhere around 3k and it simply takes forever to get back up to speed. This will eliminate that by not letting the engine drop much below 5k after an upshift, keeping the car in its powerband full-time much like a close-geared manual, with the shift speed and consistency of an auto.

[eddieate]

do all you guys drive automatics or something?
/Ed

[Cossey]

in the usa autos are far more popular than they are in europe even in sports cars.

[D_o_S]

So is this only good for automatic transmissions?

[ToxicBug]

So is this only good for automatic transmissions?
LOL

I know what it is, it means that you drive a slushbox and never go to a track with curves. What a surprise :rolleyes:

[Cossey]

yes this is for autos only
not all autos are bad, the merc sl an the mcmerc slr are both autos and are very good. however for a proper sportscar a autobox adds extra weight, slows the change and adds complexity which are all bad. once you tried a 6 speed sequential in a lightweight car youll never want to go back.

[Soulburner]

Actually my car would be within 20lbs of an equivalent 6 speed I believe...the new trans and converter will be lighter than the OEM equipment.

[ToxicBug]

yes this is for autos only
not all autos are bad, the merc sl an the mcmerc slr are both autos and are very good. however for a proper sportscar a autobox adds extra weight, slows the change and adds complexity which are all bad. once you tried a 6 speed sequential in a lightweight car youll never want to go back.
lol are you comparing a Mercedes automatic to a GM automatic?

[mnewxcv]

nice man. nice looking too, too bad you dont get to see it all that often.

[Mr. Manka]

Now all you need is a Rachet Shifter

[Soulburner]

Now all you need is a Rachet Shifter
I'd like a new shifter, but they don't make any that fit these cars...

[Cossey]

lol are you comparing a Mercedes automatic to a GM automatic?
in extremity. basically saying that a modern well thoughtout automatic transmission can work as well on better in some sports/gts. both the mercs i mentioned wouldnt be as good with manual transmissions so therefore a manual isnt always better even in a car with sporting aspirations. tbh i have no idea how good or bad gm autoboxes are therefore i will not comment;)

[ToxicBug]

in extremity. basically saying that a modern well thoughtout automatic transmission can work as well on better in some sports/gts. both the mercs i mentioned wouldnt be as good with manual transmissions so therefore a manual isnt always better even in a car with sporting aspirations. tbh i have no idea how good or bad gm autoboxes are therefore i will not comment;)
LOL never compare Mercedes to GM, thats like comparing a space shuttle to a tricycle. By the way, for serious track driving, a manual or SMG gearbox is always better than an automatic since you actually develop skill when you use it, thus you can get better at it.

[Cossey]

mercedes have suffered recently though from very poor development and they arent well put together. most people i know with the modern ones have to take them in for repairs or recalls every month.

atm im building a kitcar with a 6 speed sequential box and they are great fun to use but a pain in traffic for normal use with straight cut gears and no syncros.

[speed bump]

I'll compare GM to mercedes GM built arguebly the best 3 speed automatic transmissions ever in the TH350/TH400 and I can afford to repair old GM if I break it. Repairing old mercedes cost more than I dare think about.

Also whether or not manuals or automatics are better when it comes to drag racing depends on your ability to shift. Manuals almost always are slightly faster at the track but (unless your an artist with one) are less consistent.

[[XC] leviathan18]

enzo ferrari use a sequential gearbox and is faster than MT

[Cossey]

the enzo has a sequential manual though so the only differences is the shift pattern not the main transmission itself (although it uses paddles not a stick). the fastest shifts around are the dsg ones from volkswagon/audi (well actually ricardo).

[sokarul]

Autos are nice when your braket racing. Other than that I see no need for an auto. People tend to not pay attention when they dont have to think to drive.

[eddieate]

Yeah manuals more fun, i love changing gear you can make mistakes annd that makes it more intresting, well Ed believes this anyway :)
/Ed

[Fozzy]

My 325ic is a manual and I love it. Its completely stock and it's too old for me to touch it (88') plus I live in the us and it's $$ to get parts.

[Soulburner]

When I was looking for this car I was looking for an M6. But I couldn't find a good deal on one anywhere close to me, the only one that fit all my criteria was a neighbor and he wanted about 2k more than it was worth. This was a virgin car with the exact specs that I wanted, for a good price and it was close so I grabbed it and i'm glad I did. This is one high performance auto you don't mess with ;)

New tranny, converter, cooler, and polyurethane mount are going in in a couple days. It's going to be a whole new car.

[Soulburner]

I have to say, it's almost a whole new car.

I now have a tranny that will handle 600+rwhp, shifts lightning fast though it's not harsh at all (no jerking), and the converter totally changes the way the car drives. I have a short video to get an idea but I need it hosted up first.

[bullet2urbrain]

but do you have 600rwhp??



nice mod.. def. a good investment for the auto.. im still a manual man myself.. but i understand the desire...

[Big Deel]

You NEVER miss a shift with a auto. A stall converter is a great investment.
Go to the track and watch how many "GEARBANGGERS" MISS SHIFTS. The most popular car for this is the "mutang".
What is up with the talk about tracks with corners. Who cares about the corner if you can get there so far ahead that the race is over.

GM MUSCLE BABY :stick:

[Soulburner]

but do you have 600rwhp??
Now that's a silly question...no of course I don't. But if and when I do my car will be ready for it.

It's better to build a car from the back forward, and not the other way around and just break things.

[Bob21]

Automatic LS1 FTW

[max_Jaker]

as for all the auto vs manual stuff....

advantages for auto
shifts the same every time
does not require you to shift gears manually leaving more time to handle the road
Eaiser to launch the same every time
better for driving with a drink in your hand :)
perfect for bracket racing.
less wear on other driveline parts (axles rearend driveshaft ect due to having a indirect link to the engine)

Advantages to manual
Can allow you to change launch style allowing faster 60' with zero changes to transmission aka (stall)
does not slip and has less parasitic loss also meaning more hp goes to the wheels
better gas mileage because of above/\
allows you to downshift as hitting a corner and control the car better and leave the turn faster than auto.
is damn fun to play around with :D
less $$$ to replace /rebuild and less complex
lighter weight


theres other advanages and disadvantages too i know but these are the first ones to pop into my head

you will notice for cornering manual still takes the cake but auto leaves more room for error :)

all in all its about preferences i get tired of shifting gears all the time with my high rpm cam and low bottom end torque driving a 5 speed can get old fast in traffic trust me..
but when its playtime that 5 speeds a blast.. so all in all its what u do with the car that makes the diff and how the car is built
a fuel injected broad power curve engine say 1000-5500 is perfect for street driven 5 speeds due to low end power but put a big cam in there and it becomes 2500-6600 try driving around town at 3000 rpm all the time yeah it sucks. :P thats when a auto starts to look very appealing :)

[Soulburner]

I'll agree with all of the above except for the cost factor. It was not more expensive for me to install this race built tranny + converter than it would be for the M6 car to install a high end clutch, hydraulics system and rear end...

Because the way I see it (and what normally happens), the A4 guys smoke their transmission. The M6 guys bust the rear end from the driveline shock (crappy 10 bolt). It comes out almost the same on both sides. If you want to compare directly tranny to tranny, converter to clutch again they are pretty close. This is only speaking for the F-Body though.

The A4 cars can make that 10 bolt rear last a lot longer.

[JSU]

yeah the conception that a manual is cheaper than an auto shouldnt be treated as a rule. It cost an extra $700+ to get my gto with a manual. It was definately worth it. (i also avoided the $1000 gas guzzler tax that way :D )

[hixie]

the enzo has a sequential manual though so the only differences is the shift pattern not the main transmission itself (although it uses paddles not a stick). the fastest shifts around are the dsg ones from volkswagon/audi (well actually ricardo).

DSG gearboxes are very fast at changing gear, the one in the VW golf was quite smart. I was driving for about half an hour trying to fool the gearbox and about 90% of the time it got it right. Still i prefer race up-shifting control the throttle and just slam the gearstick into the next gear without using the clutch, but if you miss the timing you grind the gears and look like a total moron who can't even shift properly.

[Slayer2k3]

Automatic > Manual for anything running boost. :banana:

Very nice lookin car you got there, my bud had an LS1 Trans, red though.......fast......

[Soulburner]

Automatic > Manual for anything running boost. :banana:

Very nice lookin car you got there, my bud had an LS1 Trans, red though.......fast......
New wheels/tires are gonna go on along with a few other minor touchups and a clean wash/wax job so i'll probably have new pics when the snow is gone...

[Lostfaith]

isn't it so that with bad manual shifting in a 400+whp car you also risk breaking your tranny while with an automatic you don't?

one of the reasons why dragsters use mainly auto?

[Soulburner]

Dragsters usually use autos or a clutchless manual. Top fuel uses "clutch packs" that last only 1 race. Each gear they go through, disentigrates it. When built to handle a lot of power, the clutch is the weakest link...

However by design they put more power to the wheels due to there being a direct mechanical connection (clutch) between the engine and the tires. In an automatic, the torque converter does the same job however there is nothing making any physical connection, it is a fluid coupling. Much much less likely to break however not quite as efficient at the same time. Though it isn't too far off.

[Lostfaith]

Guess what Soulburner and Co, I just came to notice last monday while checking the car (Chevy Monza 76 2+2 V8 262ci with a stock automatic TH350 3speed see www.v8monza.com) that there is some rumbling at certain speeds coming from my torque converter. it only sounds while being at park or neutral, some times at low speed in the gears (especially 1&2)

is it repairable?

if I have to replace it (on my limited student budget) can I use from a more common other GM car? if yes which models?

my torque converter looks except for the color very similar to yours in the top of the thread. but this car is a daily driver, so not too much high performance as all around is desired.

any advice/hints/tips welcome!!

[Soulburner]

What do you mean by rumble?

Is it a vibration?

[Lostfaith]

no, more like sounding like a few bolts are rattling softly inside at times... especially in park. at first we thought the engine was vibrating against the chassis somewhere or that we may had forgotten a wrench in it.

appeared to come out of the converter after pinpointing the sound.


btw, it started 2 weeks ago when we jacked the back end of the car up quite high to do some suspension bodywork.
since then the rattling started... we had a feeling the engine shifted a little bit (my mounts are sagged quite a bit and the engine is resting on the oil pan, but the big swap and overall is coming, having a 305 to be overbored/stroked ready, and headers/mounts are coming.)

[Soulburner]

If you have pinpointed it to that area, a cracked flexplate could be the culprit as well. Really no way to find out without some digging.

[illmatik]

What are your thoughts on rev-limiting full throttle shifting available on some aftermarket Engine mgmt systems out there? Even though what I was reading about wasn't for classic American muscle, this S200(?) system for the Honda H22A was very interesting and probably inspired by something designed for the US race market?

What are the pros/cons for this vs a drag tuned auto? It obviously must assist in more predictable shifts while keeping some room for human error. Some cons I can see would be the car falling out of tune from the spec at time of programming or some bad quality gas causing some embarassing launches or maybe the clutch/tranny getting "used" to different shift points from lazy daily driving habits? Love to hear the pros' thoughts on something like this as much as I'd love to own an American muscle machine but it would just not be practical for where I live now how much I drive or how much I'd pay in insurance let alone sleepless nights worrying about it getting stolen :(

I'm pretty much limited to older jdm swapped sleepers, but it would be a fun feature to be able to use on road trips when the conditions are just right ;)

[MaxxxRacer]

I have a better solution.. SMG/Triptronic ;) Never miss a shift (and shift 10x faster than u normally could) and do it with less weight and the same effeciency as a regular manual... but thats only on the more pricey cars (barring the A3 and new VW compact "sports" car)


Soulburner, let me see if i have this straight. That torque converter will stall at 3500rpm? so unless you rev up to 3500 u go nowhere? For a GM V8 3500 is half way through the RPM range, so that seems pretty high. I mean it would be great fun as it allows excelent drag launches (power kicks in right when the Torque is highest), but would be a bit of a hassle for daily driving as well as hurt your gas mileage.

[Soulburner]

Soulburner, let me see if i have this straight. That torque converter will stall at 3500rpm? so unless you rev up to 3500 u go nowhere? For a GM V8 3500 is half way through the RPM range, so that seems pretty high. I mean it would be great fun as it allows excelent drag launches (power kicks in right when the Torque is highest), but would be a bit of a hassle for daily driving as well as hurt your gas mileage.
Not quite. The converter is rated at it's "Flash Stall" speed of 3600rpm. That's what it will let the engine rev to before sending the power to the wheels. That is only under WOT. During normal driving I see anywhere from 500-1000rpms higher than before, so 1500-2500 around town. It will have a negative effect on mileage but it makes it a lot more fun to drive because it feels like it has more power all the time and is no longer "sluggish" at any time. It does this by slipping, which will make your tranny get pretty hot. I have an big cooler installed for this. When it reaches around 40mph the converter locks up and the engine will drop to around 1100rpm and retain stock mileage by returning the converter to an efficient state and stop slipping. This way, highway mileage is unaffected.

See this video to see how it drives:
http://customssi.com/TATestDrive.wmv

[illmatik]

I have a better solution.. SMG/Triptronic ;) Never miss a shift (and shift 10x faster than u normally could) and do it with less weight and the same effeciency as a regular manual... but thats only on the more pricey cars (barring the A3 and new VW compact "sports" car)


Oh yeah no doubt! I dunno why, even after a back injury makes driving manual in nyc is torture, the car just doesnt feel right to me. If I manage to get out to the 'burbs anytime soon, a somewhat recent S4 Avant Tip is definately in my plans ;)

[Soulburner]

What are your thoughts on rev-limiting full throttle shifting available on some aftermarket Engine mgmt systems out there? Even though what I was reading about wasn't for classic American muscle, this S200(?) system for the Honda H22A was very interesting and probably inspired by something designed for the US race market?
I'm not quite sure what you mean, do you have any links?

[illmatik]

I'm not quite sure what you mean, do you have any links?

Here's one article, love to hear your thoughts.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0403it_hondata/

[MaxxxRacer]

IC. so it will slip but still transfer a decent amount of power up until 3600rpm. At 3600 it hard locks and gives you the full force of the engine.

I can deffinetly see how that would heat up the tranny quite a bit more, but it would make it feel much less sluggish. would be very nice for a car like my 06 civic, which below 4000rpm feels like a golf cart. around 5000 to 7000 rpm it has nice power (albiet, 100 more would be nice), so a torque convert that has a stall speed much like your own would work great.. would be kinda fun as it would fully lock in (3600rpm) at the exact speed that the VTEC kicks in.


illmatik, after ridding in my friends M3 (tuned to 350whp, and now he is planning a supercharger) which has SMG, i can honestly say there is no other way to have a car shift.. its just amazing. you dont have to worry about anything.. when the engine gets right before redline (if your trying to go fast anyway) just tap the paddle, and it does everything for you. auto throttle control through the shift and everything. for downshifts it even blips the throttle so that the snycros dont have to work as hard and it achieves faster shifts.

[Lostfaith]

If you have pinpointed it to that area, a cracked flexplate could be the culprit as well. Really no way to find out without some digging.

true, there is a very small crack by one of the big holes in my flywheel.

this is the type:
http://thumbs.1aauto.com/CLF/1ACLF00040.jpg


have a replacement flywheel, but not replacement torque converter.

anyway, I'll probably go for a new reliable one, so any tips on a good aftermarket model I should take a look at like yours but more daily drive friendly? (and not too expensive? student here...)

tnx for the help btw.:toast:

[illmatik]

illmatik, after ridding in my friends M3 (tuned to 350whp, and now he is planning a supercharger) which has SMG, i can honestly say there is no other way to have a car shift.. its just amazing. you dont have to worry about anything.. when the engine gets right before redline (if your trying to go fast anyway) just tap the paddle, and it does everything for you. auto throttle control through the shift and everything. for downshifts it even blips the throttle so that the snycros dont have to work as hard and it achieves faster shifts.

I'm a BMW fiend!! Until now I've only owned BMWs (late eighties E30 3 series).

From what year did they start including the hand paddle shifted smg? Theres an M3 @ a local high end used lot that's just calling me every time I drive by and I would love to try this style of shifting. Actually my dream would be an E30 style M3 setup like this :)

[Soulburner]

Here's one article, love to hear your thoughts.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0403it_hondata/
That is simply an aftermarket ECU tuning program, much like EFI Live.

I did see this part:

·Full throttle shifts
Perhaps the coolest feature in the S200 unit is the ability to perform full throttle shifting. Full throttle shifting features the elimination of depressing the gas pedal when crashing through the gears down the quarter mile. Not only does this increase gear shifting efficiency but helps turbo cars maintain boost levels throughout the gears keeping quarter mile times more consistent. Not to mention the car sound wicked!

I don't really get this. I had a friend with a 92 or 94 civic, and he did that all the time just to mess around. I can't see why you would need a custom tune for it, and I can't imagine it's good for the clutch either.

Maybe i'm missing something?

MaxxxRacer, yes, it is the best mod you can do to an Auto. It totally wakes the car up. You start to wonder how you even drove it stock with all that power hidden away.