RV570 To Outperform X1800XT

[onethreehill]

EDIT: Production in July /August. RV560 and RV570 will replace X1800GTO
http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=557222

[perkam]

Good One, looks like 80nm will definitely take over this summer:

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/7784/atirv0jf.jpg

Perkam

[C Stat B]

So are they going to be X1550 and X1700? or totally new things?

[turtle]

Hmm...

80nm Rv515 (rv505) x1550...Which is ATi's way of saying x1350
80nm rv530 (rv535) x1650...Nothing else it could be.
80nm (rv560/rv570) First is X1700...the other is gto replacement.

What's missing here to complete the perfect cycle...:stick: . Maybe it's on the Q3 roadmap ;)

I can't help but wonder if rv560 (x1700) and rv570 (x1900GTO?) will be 8/24 and 12/36...'cause...well...that would make perfect sense...and be very very awesome.

No doubt Q4 has R600, Rv650, and Rv660, if history repeats itself. ;)

[nn_step]

meh 80nm.. I would love to see them do something drastic like 65nm :D

[turtle]

And that will be when TSMC announces they are 65nm compliant...and when they do, expect a R600 and G90 (if not already 65nm) refresh.

[Pinnacle]

Next Gen ATI, On-Chip Crossfire


http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=909

[Vapor]

Next Gen ATI, On-Chip Crossfire


http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=909
read: "okay, nV, you were right"

Wonder if there's gonna be a bridge though :idea:

[nn_step]

read: "okay, nV, you were right"
http://img.myyearbook.com/zenhex/images/smilies/tongue.gif now that is funny http://img.myyearbook.com/zenhex/images/smilies/lol.gif

[Pinnacle]

read: "okay, nV, you were right"

Wonder if there's gonna be a bridge though :hmmm:


Dont shoot the messenger :slap:

[turtle]

I saw that too, but didn't think much of it until now.

That really screams to me that rv560 x1700 is 8/24 and rv570 x1900gto is 12/36.

If it wern't, I think x1600 masterless x-fire would work with any smaller config than 8/24...Don't you think?

[Vapor]

http://img.myyearbook.com/zenhex/images/smilies/tongue.gif now that is funny http://img.myyearbook.com/zenhex/images/smilies/lol.gifLOL, both of you don't have the final quote:)....anyway, nnstep, your smilies are different :confused:, and idk if that's the smily I used originally (the one in your sig, lol).

I wonder if there's a performance penalty? Or if RD580 is needed to avoid the penalty? Just having two cards seems a bit malnourished in a way. They need to talk.

[DilTech]

No doubt Q4 has R600, Rv650, and Rv660, if history repeats itself. ;)

More like just the R600, there hasn't been a peep about low or midrange DX10 cards from either company for this year, and considering the time frame difference between the R580(january) to R535/R560/R570(may-july), I'd say in this case we won't see anything DX10 besides the G80 and R600 this year sadly.

[onethreehill]

Look out for RV570XT & RV570XL info :)

[nn_step]

LOL, both of you don't have the final quote:)....anyway, nnstep, your smilies are different :confused:, and idk if that's the smily I used originally (the one in your sig, lol).
That is because I am unique http://img.myyearbook.com/zenhex/images/smilies/smug.gif
and it was just like it if I remember correctly.. it's been a while since I changed the links

[onethreehill]

RV560 and RV570
http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/blog.php?tid=560196

[perkam]

lol....i have an enormous urge to sticky this information...but instead, we'll wait it out and see. For now, time for sticky clean up :)

As always, brilliant finds oth :up: :banana: <-- thats cos I'm looking forward to this card lol.

Perkam

[turtle]

Looks like cards perfect for their niches.

I'm thinking at least x1700 is 256/256, with whatever R570 is (x1900gto/2 or something) prolly being 256/512, although I suppose 256/256 might also be possible on that card as well, to keep costs down.

Now that it's confirmed they are both R580 tech, ala 3:1, i'm waiting for the 8/24 and 12/36 info to become concrete. Pretty likely they will be though. I doubt all they would change on rv530->rv560 is the memory bus and die size...But it's possible. 4/12 (256bit) would be cool, but 8/24 would be rockin' for a <$200 card...Especially one that has to compete against 7600gt and may have to last awhile (until low-end R600 cards.)

Also, I'mma take a shot in the dark and guess RV570 XL/XT share the same R580 XL/XT clocks/mem setup (256/512mb) I wonder how much they'll be...Perhaps ~$250/350 MSRP? That sounds about right. I wonder how high the 80nm core can clock as well (and how it competes with 90nm and 4 more rops/12 more pipes)...Should be very interesting.

I'm definately interested in the R570XL. That could be an awesome cheap card.

[perkam]

I dont think 256/256 is supported by the architecture, turtle. 128/256 and 256/512 are the only things possible on the X1k platform...256/256 is R4xx tech to ATI.

Perkam

[turtle]

Oh no, I mean interal/external bus, or chip/ring bus. 256bit internal, 128bit bi-directional external bus, ala 256 bit ring bus. The later is already on x1600. The former is 128bit on x1600, but the new incarnation will most likely incorporate 256bit.

The hope is for a TRUE 256bit bus. Ram amount is immaterial, although it makes sense I could be misinterpreted that way. I would think x1700 would be in 128mb/256mb configurations for memory, with 256 actually being ideal and useful.

It's been stated forever that x1600's overhaul would include a memory overhaul from 128 to 256bit. There was some talk a while back of ATi re-releasing the x1600 with just the bus improvement (because 128bit internal bus made the card suck), but it didn't happen. That might still come in the form of a 80nm x1650 though, as a 80nm X1600 is listed in the roadmap as rv535. You'd think that would include the bus improvement as well, but that may just be saved for x1700.

Hopefully all new 80nm products in the x1600/x1700 will be true 256 bit so they arn't limited from reaching their full potentail (ala so don't suck), as midrange has to make the jump sometime...and it'll be worth it. If the rv570 uses a 256/256 bus, it will probably be limited by that....so hopefully it will use the R520/R580 256/512 (or 256/"256 bi-directional") setup, and save the error that was made on x1600. I wouldn't be surpised if it used the 256/256 to conserve costs though.

Sometimes the extra cost is worth it, and now is one of those times.

Hopefully ATi realizes this.

[perkam]

The RV570XT will most likely keep the 128-bit, but have an 8x3 ROPxTMU configuration.

Perkam

[Cooper]

With on-chip Compositing Engine and dual-headed cards there will be possibility for QuadXFire ;)

[Cobalt]

without the 256bit bus all these cards are going to be crippled in the same way the x1600 was. Its a shame because I wanted X1600 xfire just for the wow factor of having two cards. I don't run games at massive resolutions or apply much AA (I can hardly ever tell the difference when playing) so that would have been fine for me. I severly hope they do switch to the 256 bus.

[turtle]

The RV570XT will most likely keep the 128-bit, but have an 8x3 ROPxTMU configuration.

Perkam

I think you mean rv560 (x1700), pretty sure rv570 is the 1800xl/x1800gto/~<$300 replacement, although you may be right and I may have it backwards or sideways with rv560 being 4/12 with a 128/256 bus on 80nm and rv570 8/24 on with a 128/256 bus on 80nm...Or something else entirely. I may have been hoping for too much. I was just thinking...If they want to compete with nvidia on the low-end, why not show 'em up right...granted, what I guessed may have been too much hardware for the dollar they prolly will be aimed at.

If either of them are 128-bit though... :slapass: Bad ATi. You'd think they'd learn. IIRC, X1800GTO is 256/256...Why wouldn't these be?

Here's how pcpop sees it so far:

http://img2.pcpop.com/ArticleImages/0x0/0/241/000241757.jpg

Notice no R570 and no specs for rv560 other than it's x1700...although you'd think it would be inbetween R535 and R580 as all R520 variants (xl/xt/gto) are going bye-bye. Rv535 is 4/12 ala x1600 replacement (hopefully with a 256bit bus, because if rv570 was just rv535 with a 256 bus that'd be bull)...so what are rv560 and rv570? At least better than that, and hopefully rv570 is a good step above rv560. Whatever they are, they have to fill the space inbetween the new x1600 (x1550) and the x1900xl.

[onethreehill]

ATI's RV570 disclosed
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30217

[perkam]

ATI's RV570 disclosed
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30217


RV570 should feature the 256-bit memory bus and it will feature the Crossfire bridge chip inside the core. This will let the manufactures to make bridgeless and connector-less Crossfire systems. You won't need a master card and all the dull cables any more. It will also cut the production cost and will finally make the Crossfire upgrade path easier. Time will erase the necessity for the master and slave design. Even next generation R600 comes with a Crossfire bridge inside of the chip Though its from the inquirer, its encouraging that ATI is at least thinking about integrating crossfire onto the graphics cards, negating the need for slave or master :)

I look forward to the day when master cards are looked upon as old and dull technology and when ATI cards too can be instantly put into crossfire with two of the same cards.

Perkam

[turtle]

I read that article, but didn't see a darn thing disclosed we didn't already know. Nothing specified other than dongless (as hexus told us) crossfire, which we already know is the future, especially on non-highest-end parts. We should expect as much if Crossfire wants to compete with SLI. Granted, those x1800GTO crossfire benchies look pretty nice and show dongless crossfire can work and compete well.

I want someone to leak us some specs/prices...That's when we'll know if this hoopla for midrange is worth it 2-3 months before release. They could be awesome parts for the mid/mid-high end, but they may just be mild improvements and additions on the low/mid-range. Hopefully the former...But I guess we'll see.

[perkam]

I want someone to leak us some specs/prices...That's when we'll know if this hoopla for midrange is worth it 2-3 months before release. It will inevitably be faster than the 7600GT at the $199 price point. Some argue that the GT will no longer be at that price point by that time, thats believable, but then again the GTO wont be available at 249 by then too :)

The cards seem to be having an integrated crossfire compositing engine meaning unlike the upcoming dongle-less solution from ATI that will sacrifice performance by using the bandwith from 32 pci-e lanes for its compositing, this will be the "real" dongle less solution...and the first major iteration of ATI's version of SLI with no need for a dongle or a mastercard, broad compatibility and plug and play ease of use.

So yes there's a reason for the hoopla ;)

Perkam

[Starscream]

yeah the X1800GTO should be a good bit below the 249 MSRP.
as ATI has already said they want the GTO to drop to 199 as quick as possible this to have more bang per buck vs the 7600GT.

but dont forget that the GTO is only limited so at the time that the X1700 comes it could just as well be that GTOs are hard to come by.

[onethreehill]

RV570 Revealed: 256-Bit Memory for The Mainstream
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/editorial/display/cebit2006-3_3.html

[perkam]

Unfortunately with the 6800GS, Nvidia's response is "been there, done that"...but a welcome addition to the line up from ATI nonetheless :)

As always....nice linkage oth :)

EDIT: HOLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:


According to performance estimations, the RV570 XT should outperform the Radeon X1800 XT by about 10% in all types of applications, which is not even inline with historical trends: previously the new generation GPUs had similar or a little slower performance compared to the previous high-end graphics cards.


The new RV570-series samples should be available around May, whereas production should start in July or August this year. :( By then Nvidia will have G80 out and what not ... but a very surprising decision by ATI :D :D :D

Perkam

[Cybercat]

if true, that should put the nail on their coffin.

[perkam]

if true, that should put the nail on their coffin.lol :p Do explain :p:

Perkam

[nn_step]

HOLY :banana::banana::banana::banana: a $200 card is expected to outperform a $500 card :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Starscream]

wouldnt a X1700 with 256bit and 10% faster then a X1800XT be very expensive evne at 80nm.

i cant imagin them making good money onit if it is only 200 bucks

[Cybercat]

lol :p Do explain :p:

Perkam
you don't honestly expect the 7600GT to stand a chance against this do you?

[turtle]

If it's 10% faster than a x1800xt, then 12ROPS/36PS 256bit with elevated clocks seem like where it's at for rv570. Thank goodness, I imagine I wasn't the only one hoping for that. I doubt it's 8/24...I don't think there's any way that could outperform a x1800xt. 12/36 just makes sense.

I wonder what kind of clocks rv570 will yield, especially if the die is not only smaller because of 80nm, but since it's tailor-made this way (unlike x1800GTO) it has less transistors than R580, allowing for theoretically higher speed and less heat at a lower cost to both ATi and us. This should be a very nice sweet spot for ATi and us...and a thorn for the 7900gt. Very smart, seems like they're (ATi's) finally catching on.

I would not at all be surprised to see the rv570 XL and XT using 256/512mb's of mem at 1.4/2.0ns (XL) and 1.1/1.2ns (XT).

Those again, could be very sweet cards for ~$200-300...Especially in dongless crossfire. Looking into my crystal ball, I see many-a rv570xl crossfire rigs in siggies coming soon.

On the flipside, this makes rv560 (X1700) look more and more like 8/24 256bit, and less like a 256bit x1600, which is good news. Since that card will be even cheaper to make than rv570, it could also be a nice <$200 ($150?) product...competing with the 7600gt (as x1800gto goes the way of the dodo). Perhaps it has less rops than GTO/GT, but the extra shaders and 256bit bus + 80nm process for higher clocks could help it compensate.

Woot for ATi. These should be nice 7600gt and 7900gt competitors, most likely for less money. That being said, May/June is a while away...and G80 will be out around then. Knowing Nvidia though, they won't have anything in this range (if the 7800gtx is any indication) to compete with these products until much later. That should help ATi in respect to these cards.

[DilTech]

Great idea, but entirely too late to the party to be effective... If it was out this month or next month, it'd definitely turn some serious heads. For now, it's not worth that long of a wait for a 10% increase over the x1800xt to turn down the 7900GT.

July/August to start production??? That'd make a September/october release guys, by then everyone will be drooling over DX10 cards like the G80 and R600 which will be right around the corner.

What this DOES confirm, there will be NO DX10 mid-range card from ATi this year, and I'm not expecting one from NVidia neither.

[perkam]

Great idea, but entirely too late to the party to be effective... If it was out this month or next month, it'd definitely turn some serious heads. For now, it's not worth that long of a wait for a 10% increase over the x1800xt to turn down the 7900GT.

July/August to start production??? That'd make a September/october release guys, by then everyone will be drooling over DX10 cards like the G80 and R600 which will be right around the corner.

What this DOES confirm, there will be NO DX10 mid-range card from ATi this year, and I'm not expecting one from NVidia neither. FOr those who havent caught on already :) This is basically an X1900GTO ;)

Perkam

[OmegaMerc]

Whats stopping video card producers from going into 65mm? I've never seen "inside" a video card core, only CPU core. Anyone got more insight?

[zakelwe]

nvidia should have a DX10 / wgf 2.0 compatible part this year ..whether they go for 65nm or stick to a known 80nm process is the big question .. my guess is the latter.

I quite like the rv570 specs though it depends how cheap they can keep it on 256bit bus even at 80nm. Should be pretty beefy anyway.

[MaxxxRacer]

Its a pitty this will take as long as summer to come out as a 256bit SM3 card for the mainstream is really nice. One that is more powerful than the 6800GS that is.

[nn_step]

FOr those who havent caught on already :) This is basically an X1900GTO ;)

Perkam
yes, so I think X1800GTO should take a hike...

[SnipingWaste]

Great idea, but entirely too late to the party to be effective... If it was out this month or next month, it'd definitely turn some serious heads. For now, it's not worth that long of a wait for a 10% increase over the x1800xt to turn down the 7900GT.

July/August to start production??? That'd make a September/october release guys, by then everyone will be drooling over DX10 cards like the G80 and R600 which will be right around the corner.

What this DOES confirm, there will be NO DX10 mid-range card from ATi this year, and I'm not expecting one from NVidia neither.

How many times do I have to tell you, there is no DX10 but WGF 1.0 and WGF 2.0. There is a D3D10 but not DX10. The only GPU out now that is WGF 2.0 is the GPU in the Xbox360 and from what Im hearing the G80 will not be WGF 2.0 complient. Im hearing that G80 will not be unified shader setup but have seperate Pixel and vertext units. This would make it WGF 1.0 and not WGF 2.0. We know from ATI the R600 will be fully WGF 2.0 complient and Nivida has leaked some info about there G90 will be fully WGF 2.0 complient.

[DilTech]

WGF 2.0 was renamed...don't call me out on these things, I've been watching things done with the API for months now. WGF 2.0 = DX10 now. Been renamed to that for quite some time. First it was Direct X Next, then Avalon, then WGF 2.0, now it's back to just plain jane DX10... Take a quick search thru microsoft or gamedev(I've posted the gamedev link to the entire explaination of DX10, it's requirements, and what it does for games about 10 times now) for the API, both will tell you the same thing!

G80 = DX10 part, just like the R600. XBit posted some idiot rumor based on a statement from 2005(When NVidia said unified wasnt needed to help hype the PS3 against the X360) that it wouldn't be unified(the statement had NOTHING to do with G80), but since then NVidia has stated the G80 would be the basis of their upcoming gpu's for the next few years meaning it'd HAVE to be unified.... G80 is definitely DX10. There's just NO way NVidia would go a few more years without going unified, they CAN'T be that stupid, can they?

R600 will be out in october more than likely.

G80 will be out BEFORE this x1700xt, and R600 will be a month/2 months behind... So, what's the purpose of the 1700xt?

[krille]

Nivida has leaked some info about there G90 will be fully WGF 2.0 complient.linky?

Thanks!

[Cybercat]

WGF 2.0 was renamed...don't call me out on these things, I've been watching things done with the API for months now. WGF 2.0 = DX10 now. Been renamed to that for quite some time. First it was Direct X Next, then Avalon, then WGF 2.0, now it's back to just plain jane DX10... Take a quick search thru microsoft or gamedev(I've posted the gamedev link to the entire explaination of DX10, it's requirements, and what it does for games about 10 times now) for the API, both will tell you the same thing!
I did a search to find out for sure, and this is what I found:

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=244983&SiteID=1

[SnipingWaste]

linky?

Thanks!
This was info from the ppl in the AEG/Nvidia program and from Nvidia in the past.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20060220100915.html

[krille]

This was info from the ppl in the AEG/Nvidia program and from Nvidia in the past.No seriously, I want linky on the Nivida has leaked some info about there G90 part (WGF2.0/DX10 is a given of course...should have made myself clear). I'm very interested, although I doubt a lot is even set in mud. ;)

[DilTech]

This was info from the ppl in the AEG/Nvidia program and from Nvidia in the past.

So first you go from saying NVidia, to saying ppl in the AEG/NVidia program...

You do know people in the AEG/NVidia program cannot even say they're members? Anyone who claims they are, and makes up claims, ARE JUST THAT... MAKING UP CLAIMS.

If they were members, they wouldn't risk losing that to give out info.

[Bar81]

.

G80 will be out BEFORE this x1700xt, and R600 will be a month/2 months behind...

Where are you getting this?

[DilTech]

Simple, NVidia stated summer release for G80, as IN OFFICIALLY STATED IT. Don't have time to dig up a link, google is your friend.

July/August is when production starts for the X1700, making release at the EARLIEST september, if not october. R600 can official release in october.

So, G80 will be out, then X1700XT, with the R600 showing up around a month later.... Get it?

[nn_step]

I think what you are thinking of is http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2492

[DilTech]

No, that's not the article I'm thinking of stating this summer for the G80.

[SnipingWaste]

I think what you are thinking of is http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2492
Looks old to me, july 2005. What Im hearing is G80 is not unified shader but the pixel and vertext shader will share the texture units.

[nn_step]

Yeah we do.. unified architecture is coming.. we all know..

[DilTech]

Sniping, you're going off that rumor from XBit still, aren't you?

That article is so fake it's not even funny...

You see, DX10 requires THREE different shader units, Pixel, Vertex, and GEOMETRY shaders. The article, and every idiot who's used it as an argument, only states 2. Even if NVidia made a "hybrid" chip, it STILL would have to have these 3.

Next, Microsoft will NOT allow "partial compliance" for DX10, you either have everything, or nothing. They don't want to see the same thing happen that did with DX9, with programmers having to work around the FX series. Therefore, without unified shaders, you cannot be DX10 compliant... END OF STORY!

And now, I'll just go straight up and end this...

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28841


- Second half, 8 Series Product, another architecture... Is that going to be 90nm, architecture-level innovation etc.?
=> Hum, we don't want to pre-annouance parts. We will come out with a new architecture later this year.
=> I don't think we've said whether it will be 90nm or not, but obviously it probably will have to be.
=> It will be a "significant new architecture", we'll be using it for a couple of years.


Direct from a NVidia employee webcast. For NVidia to use this architecture for a couple years, it'd HAVE to be unified... NVidia aren't just going to skip DX10 altogether, yanno?

I think carlos mencia said it best... Dee-Dee-Dee!

[Bar81]

I'd still like to see where G80 was "confirmed" for summer.

[DilTech]

I'll hunt down that link a little later, it'll have to wait until I get off work.

[Cybercat]

NVIDIA almost always releases their next gen cards in the summer. Why would that change for the G80?

[Shadowmage]

I'd still like to see where G80 was "confirmed" for summer.

It was never confirmed for the summer. It was confirmed for 2H 2006.

[onethreehill]

RV570 To Outperform X1800XT
http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=574802

[Bar81]

It was never confirmed for the summer. It was confirmed for 2H 2006.

Which actually makes sense. Thanks.

[turtle]

Once again it's said to be 128bit (128/128 "256")?)...and I pout. RV570 is essentially a bus-butchered x1900GTO on 80nm. If it's coming out in several months, I wonder why they didn't just use a 256bit (256/128 "256") bus and then have it replace the x1900GTO. It'd still be cheaper to produce, and should hold it's value if 80nm turns out better than 90nm. I think that's a massively missed opportunity.

X1700 (rv560) looks fairly interesting...8/24, essentially 2x a x1600 (rv530), but again the butchered bus...That's gotta end up hurting it (and rv570 more-so), as I imagine both chips will use GDDR3 that should as least have a potential of close to 1400mhz, surely higher on the 570XT? Hopefully that decision was made to help keep costs substantially lower...Or it was just a bad one.

I'm sure RV570 =/> 7900gt and rv560 will be =/> 7600gt, but will that really matter come August and perhaps only slightly later?

At least it will thin the product lines down some, make each set more defining, and perhaps ATi will only be producing 5 different kinds of chips in 10-12 configs (x1300,RV535,x1700,RV570,x1900) instead of the bajillion ("stacked" config ;)) that they currently (and soon more-so) have going on.

Gemini looks cool too...I wonder how much a RV570 gemini will cost, and how it will compete with everything else on the market. Hopefully it will go past the gimmick stage, unlike multi-gpu cards before it. The non-propriatariness of it (unlike cards before it) will surely help.

[Bar81]

Which actually makes sense. Thanks.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30624

[onethreehill]

ATI prepares X1700 series
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30687

[mine]

ATI prepares X1700 series
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30687

as long as they don`t release a card with hdmi or dvi (hdcp) ATI may release
a RV600 170000 XTRSC for 99 $ and I won`t buy it

No ATI (NVidia).......absolutely no new card in 2006 without this feature
you will not fool me to buy another new card with the forecoming HDDVD or BR

you had time for years

[Shadowmage]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30624

By "confirmed", I mean confirmed by official NVIDIA people at an official stockholder's conference.

[Bar81]

Apparently, un"confirmed" now :P

[Shadowmage]

Apparently, un"confirmed" now :P

what do you mean?

Need proof?

edit: wrong article, here's the right one: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28841