T-line or res or both, what's best???

[lowdog]

Ok, what is the best set up. A t-line, a res or can you use both a t-line and a res?

Do t-lines impede flow more than a res? I was thinking of having a res for filling and a t-line for easy bleeding of the loop....would this work or would it kill flow???

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

Ok, what is the best set up. A t-line, a res or can you use both a t-line and a res?

Do t-lines impede flow more than a res? I was thinking of having a res for filling and a t-line for easy bleeding of the loop....would this work or would it kill flow???


maxxx's testing has shown a t-line is less restrictive for flow than a res. its fairly minimal though. res costs more, often leak, and take up way more space, and more restrictive

t-line takes longer to fill and bleed, and need refilling more often.

[lowdog]

Right, but can you use both a res and a t-line in the same loop?

For instance, a t-line at the bottom of the loop just before the pump intake (just for bleeding purposes) and the res at the top of the loop feeding down to the pump intake. Would this work? This set up would make the whole bleed and fill process very simple and hassle free.

[MaxxxRacer]

While you could theoretically do that, putting a res or T-line anywhere, but right before the pump is a bad idea. The T-line being somewhere besides the pump intake isnt nearly as bad of an idea as having res placed elsewhere, but it still is a poor idea.

[lowdog]

While you could theoretically do that, putting a res or T-line anywhere, but right before the pump is a bad idea. The T-line being somewhere besides the pump intake isnt nearly as bad of an idea as having res placed elsewhere, but it still is a poor idea.

So what would you suggest for placement if I was to just use a t-line.
Set up is cpu block, 2 x gpu blocks, MCP655 and a BIXIII.

Option 1/ rad>cpu>gpu1>gpu2>pump>rad.

Option 2/ rad>pump>cpu>gpu1>gpu2>rad.

Where would the t-line go in either of these two loop configs???


Also I was under the impression that a res should always go before the pump intake.

[catkicker]

I have mine rad>Tline>pump>cpu>gpu1>rad.

[trance565]

you could possibly get 2 tlines and put them a couple inches apart, one for filling, one for bleeding xD

btw, anyone have any links to wehre you can buy a t line? i havent been able to find any, i went to the links in maxxx's site page, but the "tline section" only has ez fill ports

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

in hist list of mcmaster parts. sure, you have to buy 10, but oh well...

[MaxxxRacer]

10 at mcmaster is like buying one a FCPU.. lol.. and mcmaster ships 100x faster. (2-3days from order time to western europe from the U.S)



Also I was under the impression that a res should always go before the pump intake.

that is correct. As i said in my guide the T-line or res SHOULD go right before the pump. hmm. I should take a picture to clarify this.

[dward3]

Here's a link to a T-Line Guide that might come in handy

T-Line Guide (http://www.wc101.com/guides/t-line/) :)

[KoukiFC3S]

http://www.wc101.com/guides/t-line/sm_t-line%20bleed.jpg

water flow is the blue line?

[dward3]

http://www.wc101.com/guides/t-line/sm_t-line%20bleed.jpg

water flow is the blue line?

yes, you are correct :)

For my setup, I just use following route, pump outlet > rad > cpu > t-line > pump inlet.

[KoukiFC3S]

While you could theoretically do that, putting a res or T-line anywhere, but right before the pump is a bad idea. The T-line being somewhere besides the pump intake isnt nearly as bad of an idea as having res placed elsewhere, but it still is a poor idea.




that is correct. As i said in my guide the T-line or res SHOULD go right before the pump. hmm. I should take a picture to clarify this.


Im confused! :confused:

will this work fine?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/zenkifc/flow.jpg

[PenumbralFigure]

Im confused! :confused:

will this work fine?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/zenkifc/flow.jpg

That setup will work fine, AFAIK.

[amrgb]

you'll have a tough time bleeding with that loop, though

[KoukiFC3S]

where would you suggest I put it then? Or should I get the swiftech res?

[PenumbralFigure]

where would you suggest I put it then? Or should I get the swiftech res?

It's not a matter of placement, it's just that T-Lines, when compared to resevoirs, take a LONG time to bleed. I do not know how long it takes, but apparently it's much longer than using a res.

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

if been thinking about the placement of the t-line maxxx. cathar said that the inlet of the pump must not be restricted. and t-lines are usually smaller diameter and the waterflow gets restricted. so maybe its not the best place for one?

[amrgb]

where would you suggest I put it then? Or should I get the swiftech res?

Well, that's a tough call (for me), since you want you're rad on top of you case. But the higher the T-line is, the easier is the bleeding (if I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me).

And I remembered a problem (that can be overcomed) with your loop. You will inevitably need to refill your system, specially on the first times where some air is still on the loop. In a loop like the one you decribed, once you opened the T-line, you water will come out of the loops, since it's lower than the rad. You can overcome this by extending the tube from the T so that it's endpoint is higher than the rad. Something like this

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9066/flow4pr.jpg

Edit: here's mine

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/7341/loop7ex.jpg

[PenumbralFigure]

Is that a CoolerMaster Stacker?

[amrgb]

yes, with a bix2 on the front

[MaxxxRacer]

Forgive the lack of niceities amrgb, but;

you are completely incorrect when you say that if you extend the T-Line tube above every other component, it will bleed faster/better.

the only thing that matters is where the T-line or res itself resides.

also, you would see a minor gain in flowrate if you placed the T-line right before the pump compared to its current location. While that may seem a bit strange, it is infact true. but i should point out that the difference is small.


WeStSiDePLaYa:The t-line does not present a problem when placed right before the pump. In my case, and whoever follows my instruction, I advise for a 5/8" T-Line so that the ID of the T-line is the same as that of the tubing. Because of this the turbulence from the T-line is brought to a minimum and the restrcition from the T-line is next to 0.

[amrgb]

Forgive the lack of niceities amrgb, but;

you are completely incorrect when you say that if you extend the T-Line tube above every other component, it will bleed faster/better.

the only thing that matters is where the T-line or res itself resides.

also, you would see a minor gain in flowrate if you placed the T-line right before the pump compared to its current location. While that may seem a bit strange, it is infact true. but i should point out that the difference is small.

No need for niceties, I prefer to be corrected if I'm wrong.

But you missed the point. I said that the extension of the T-line tube above every component of the loop is necessary to refill the system. As it was, the time he openned the filport, to refill, the water would start to get out of the loop. Just that.

When I said the higher, the better for bleeding, I meant, the higher the T itself, not the tube. The tube is only for the refill question.

But thanks for the clarification ;)

PS: you're the wc guru, you don't need to be nice or to apologize for not be.

PS2: my placement of the T-line was a tradeoff between the loss of performance and the easiness of bleeding. I've choosed the second one, since you always said the drop in performance should be small.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

no it doesn't if you finish filling with the pump on. the pump's suction holds the water in the loop and all is well.

[amrgb]

well, to refill the system with the pump on is the kind of things I'm unconfortable with.

[lowdog]

So with the T before the pump how long does it take for the loop to bleed out all the air?

Point being that the pump is sucking like crazy so what chance does the air have to rise up the t-line when it is right before the pump. Seems like the air would have SFA chance of going up the t-line and would instead just get sucked into the pump....over and over again. How do you avoid this and get the loop bled of air???

[ExtraPickles]

I did one last night with just a 1/2" tee by the pump intake and left it run overnight to leak check and the air was gone by morning. Having one system with a reservoir and one with a t-line I have to say I like the t-line much more. To fill it all I did was keep filling the t-line and quickly turn the pump on and off again to move the water. Looks like it will be easy to drain also.

-pickles

[MaxxxRacer]

But you missed the point. I said that the extension of the T-line tube above every component of the loop is necessary to refill the system. As it was, the time he openned the filport, to refill, the water would start to get out of the loop. Just that.

The t-line extension is not neccesary to fill the system. you can have the T-line at the bottom of the loop and have a 3 inch T-line height and not have any problems filling the system. The water will not over flow the top of the t-line. This is the case because the force of hte water on both sides of the t-line intake and exhaust are equal and thus the water does not flow. This can more sensibly be illustrated with a Res, but the principle is the same.

about the niceties. It pays no one for me or anyone else to be rude. Just because I am the 'guru' does not give me the right to be an ass. Cathar is the perfect example. He knows mroe about this watercooling stuff than anyone (yes you too Bill) and he is incredibly nice. I will admit I am not as cool minded as Cathar always is but I do try.

I should also point out the polar opposite of Cathar..Bill Adams, formerly of Swiftech. He takes the cake with regards to being rude. If you say something that is incorrect or ask a question he will try his harded to make you feel like the biggest idiot on the face of the planet.. Not many get along with him, and we really dont need more people with attitudes such as his answering questions on the forums.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

haha, maxxx, that's borderline flamebaiting... please go repeat it at procooling so we can have some comedy! :)

[lowdog]

So with the T before the pump how long does it take for the loop to bleed out all the air?

Point being that the pump is sucking like crazy so what chance does the air have to rise up the t-line when it is right before the pump. Seems like the air would have SFA chance of going up the t-line and would instead just get sucked into the pump....over and over again. How do you avoid this and get the loop bled of air???


Any answer to my question ^ :fact:

[MaxxxRacer]

bloody, I merely speak the truth that everyone, who has talked to bill, knows.

sorry lowdog. didnt see the Q amidst the others.

The bleeding can vary anywhere from 5 minutes to 20+ hours with a t-line. All depends on how you fill it and a bit of luck. If you can fill the system (with the pump off) so that you get ALL of the air pockets/bubbles out, the system will essentially be bled and it will only take a few minutes to get any microbubbles out of the loop.

On the other hand, if you just blithely fill the system and turn it on without any care as to how you filled it, it can take up to and possibly longer than the aforementioned 20 hours.

[amrgb]

...The water will not over flow the top of the t-line. This is the case because the force of hte water on both sides of the t-line intake and exhaust are equal and thus the water does not flow...

But that's with the pump working right? It makes sense.

But when you first fill the system you can't have the pump working or can you (I thought not, but...)?

I'm asking this because I'll take my wc to Portugal these holydays, and I can improve the placement of the T-line.

Regarding the niceties, I know you're a cool guy. But being a guru should be tiring. So much ignorance around you :p: I understand if you go straight to the point and say that we are wrong. ;)

[lowdog]

sorry lowdog. didnt see the Q amidst the others.

The bleeding can vary anywhere from 5 minutes to 20+ hours with a t-line. All depends on how you fill it and a bit of luck. If you can fill the system (with the pump off) so that you get ALL of the air pockets/bubbles out, the system will essentially be bled and it will only take a few minutes to get any microbubbles out of the loop.

On the other hand, if you just blithely fill the system and turn it on without any care as to how you filled it, it can take up to and possibly longer than the aforementioned 20 hours.


Thanks MR :)

Now what is the recommended way to fill a t-line, what do you suggest Max, how about a detailed walkthrough based on your expertise on filling a loop via a t-line. Incorperating all the tricks of the trade. :woot:

My t-line will be about 20" long (Lian LI PC70 case) because I want it to extend up to the top of the case and to store a little water as well.

[MaxxxRacer]

best way is to dry fit all the components in the case. get the tubing all cut and attached. THEN pull out all of the watercooling components.

fill the system and ensure that all the air gets out. i say to pull the components out as it wil be easier to get the water out of them this way, specifically the radiator.

Once you have all the air out, re-attach everything in the case and your good to go after you leak test.

I use the above method for filling T-line systems (but i dont use a case) and bleeding takes all of 30seconds to 5 minutes before ALL the air bubles are gone.


But when you first fill the system you can't have the pump working or can you (I thought not, but...)?
having the pump on while your filling the sytem is NOT a good idea unless you are sure that the pump will stay flooded. If it will then go for it. if not, only turn the pump on after you have gotten all the water in that you can.

[KoukiFC3S]

so if i do the setup I drew
can I take out all the components, make my t-line the highest component, bleed and put everything back?

[MaxxxRacer]

well if your gonna take out all of your components to fill and bleed it, I suggset you put the t-line right before the pump as this is the optimum position.

BUT yes you could do that.

[lowdog]

Hey MR, sorry about all the questions but I have another for you.:)

All the components in my loop will be copper or brass (no aluminium) so how would a combo of just Distilled Water 75% and Isopropyl Alchohol 25% go.

I don't want dyes or any crap that will cause a residue to build up in blocks etc. Would the above mix be fine?

[MaxxxRacer]

while i dont have any data on longterm effects of isoproply alchohol in a cooling loop, it should be ok.

and it should serve its purpose of killing bacteria.

[moonlightcheese]

i always fill my setup the hard way ^_^

i fill it with all the tubing attached to the blocks and all components setup and i then fill until the water reaches the top of the T and close the T and pick up the compy and move it around till the water gets evenly distributed (somewhat) and then open it back up again to fill it some more. i repeat this until i feel is relatively full and then cut on the pump to bleed and fill up completely. it's really cumbersome but it keeps me from taking the loop apart LOL.

the trick to filling a T line system is to get the T at the highest altitude. this makes bleeding SO much easier, otherwise you will be waiting for days to bleed that baby. usually this means placing the computer on it's side and (assuming the T is very close to the case panel) this will put the bottom of the T at the highest altitude. with this method you'll be bled out in like an hour.

i've tried both ways (bleeding it upright and bleeding on the side) and one is MUCH more efficient. give it a shot and make sure you get that T close to the side of the case so this method will work.

[MaxxxRacer]

good tip moonlight.

[lowdog]

Loop done and leak testing.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41432&d=1135145127

[KoukiFC3S]

so when you are done bleeding there should be no air even in the t-line right?

[MaxxxRacer]

BIX3 you have there?

See you went with the MCW55's.

[lowdog]

BIX3 you have there?

See you went with the MCW55's.


Yep BIX3 and MCW55's. Know a few people who have the MCW55's and heard good things about them.

24 hours and 0 leaks, just waiting for fans to arrive the will wack it all in the case. :)

[moonlightcheese]

so when you are done bleeding there should be no air even in the t-line right?
nah the very top of the T is gonna have a small bit of air in it. but that air will never get back in the cooling loop again as the water in the T is static. the whole purpose of that T being there is to catch air so of course it's gonna have a little air in it ;)

[ExtraPickles]

Discovered something by accident yesterday, an easy dry way to drain a t-line system is to insert some small diameter aquarium type tubing down into the tee and siphon it out.

-pickles

[MaxxxRacer]

interesting technique pickles.

IIRC, dont need a pump for the siphon do you?

[ExtraPickles]

interesting technique pickles.

IIRC, dont need a pump for the siphon do you?No pump necessary... mmmm I love the taste of HydrX in the morning.

Actually did it again today testing different rads in search of elusive lower temps and it makes it simple. Hard to believe there is barely a detectable difference in reported motherboard CPU temps between a heater core, Swiftech double, BIX single and a PA120.2. One left to try, a PA120.3 but that won't be here until next week.

-pickles

[MaxxxRacer]

pickles.. u have more rads than i do... jebus.