X-FLows Now Available at Dangerden!

[n00b 0f l337]

I was just checking out the radiator prices and theres now x-flow bip1-3's! Yay!

[Psyche911]

Are those Quick-Connect fittings? :slapass:

P.S. Linky:
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/home.php?cat=73

1x120, 2x120, 3x120

Explain this to me:
BIP2: rated for 1155KCal per hour (2856 BTU per hour)
XFlo2: DOUBLE the performance of a PRO: rated for 1155KCal per hour (4583 BTU per hour)

Same KCal per hour but 38% higher BTU per hour? And 138% = 200% to DangerDen?

[n00b 0f l337]

Says shown with optional fittings. Dun worry!

[Psyche911]

Otherwise, they look good.
A single-pass would work better for my planed setup. And if they do offer better performance than a BIP (whether it's 38%, 100%, or something else), count me in. Plus, it's $2 cheaper than the Swiftech MCR-220. :)

I wonder how it scales with different CFM & static pressure (especially on the low-end).

[n00b 0f l337]

And its about the same price as the old ones!

[MaxxxRacer]

nice idea, but i had hoped it would be more than just a single pass and would have a lowered FPI.. but u cant win them all..

anyway, Im still waiting for the PA120.x series..

[n00b 0f l337]

Thermochill is still quite expensive though.

[[KoG]^weaZel]

ahh give me the BIX III and I am happy.

[thegreek]

those look pretty good

[EnJoY]

nice idea, but i had hoped it would be more than just a single pass and would have a lowered FPI.. but u cant win them all..

anyway, Im still waiting for the PA120.x series..


When that comes out, I'll be selling my HE120.3, putting a PA120.2 in my current case with smaller pump and moving the panworld and PA120.3 onto a new Lian-Li V2000. :)

[Lemmingzappa]

Lian-Li V2000. :)

Just out of interest and a bit off topic here sorry, why do people go for the V2000's when they could get a V2100 ?

[EnJoY]

A 2100 has the door right? I personally think the 2000 looks a lot sexier.

[Lemmingzappa]

A 2100 has the door right? I personally think the 2000 looks a lot sexier.

imo the 2000 looks a bit cheesy, but I guess I havent seen the entire case so what do I know :banana:

[Weapon]

Explain this to me:
BIP2: rated for 1155KCal per hour (2856 BTU per hour)
XFlo2: DOUBLE the performance of a PRO: rated for 1155KCal per hour (4583 BTU per hour)

Same KCal per hour but 38% higher BTU per hour? And 138% = 200% to DangerDen?

check the dimensions of the BIP2 v. the x-flowII if you want to scratch your head a bit more on the claimed performance difference.

x-flowII: 133x 277 x 25 mm (5.9 x 9.79 x 0.98 inch) dimensions
reg proII: 133 x 277 x 25 mm (5.9 x 10.9 x 0.98 inch)

unless the testing was done with an extremely anemic pump, I find it a little hard to believe the performance is that different considering the cores seem to have close to identical surface area.

[Psyche911]

nice idea, but i had hoped it would be more than just a single pass and would have a lowered FPI.. but u cant win them all..

anyway, Im still waiting for the PA120.x series..

You can tell the fin count is lower by looking, or do you know more than the page says?

P.S. Thermochill is too expensive for a poor person like me. :p

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

someone go ahead and count the fins, then divide the result by 13.3 then multiply by however many cm there are in an inch (3.8ish?) and get us an approximate FPI number :)
EDIT: I counted ~85 fins in one column so...
85/13.3*3.8 = ~24 FPI
or...
85/12.0*3.8 = ~27 FPI

so it looks to be around 25 FPI based on the picture of the 1x120mm version

[IYP]

imo the 2000 looks a bit cheesy, but I guess I havent seen the entire case so what do I know :banana:


trust me ists an amazing case i love mine

[MaxxxRacer]

bloody, if that is correct, they raised the FPI... BIX and BIP has 18FPI right now..

nope bloody.. i just measured it.. 18FPI.. dont know how u got 25...

oh that explains alot.. 2.54cm in an inch dude... NOT 3.8


weapon: it would have had to have been one insanely anemic pump to do that as the BIP isnt THAT restrictive... maybe a ehiem 1046 with 1mm ID tubing.. lol

[Psyche911]

http://www.hwlabs.com/products/xflow.htm

There will be Pros and Extremes still.

I wonder, is anything changed besides 2 pass > 1 pass? lol

[cartmanea]

I think they used the same body and just changed the tanks.

[MaxxxRacer]

cart, that is exactly what they did.. while it does add some variety. im not to impressed.

[cartmanea]

I would like to see a review comparing the two though. It should have lower pressure drop, so I would like to see how it performs compared with the original BIP.

[MaxxxRacer]

single pass will give you lower pressure drop, but you will need higher flowrate to compenstate for the lower water velocity in the radiator.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

d'oh, i'm stupid... dunno where i got 3.8 from. probably from 38mm thick fans = ~1.5 inches :)

[MaxxxRacer]

38/1.5=25.33 pretty acccurate

[RVWinkle]

Looks like they're all out of stock still like they've been since last week. And just a heads to everyone, a certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling field for quite some time has made some vague references to these new rads. The impression I got was that the performance of this line would be underwhelming. This is deffinitely a product in which you'll want to wait for the reviews before upgrading.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

haha, i know who you're talking about.
Also, if they're just BI rads made singlepass, I suspect they'll be worse than their BI cousins.

[moonlightcheese]

a certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling field for quite some time...
heh... that's funny :D

[MaxxxRacer]

single pass is a tricky situation..

~1/2 the flow restriction
~1/2 the flow velocity in the radiator

flow restriction is important for the system as a hole, but considering current radiators are far from being nexxxos XP's, the gain you get in flow is not very substantial when moving to a single pass from dual pass.



BUT i suppose in a system with a low head pressure pump and low restriction blocks that gets relatively high flow, the single pass would work better.

this would be due to extra flow gained from single pass and there being enough flow to overcome the lower internal water velocity in the radiator..


so essentially its a balancing act...

[Fairydust]

...flow restriction is important for the system as a hole, but considering current radiators are far from being nexxxos XP's...

Hey don't forget the Mora2 :P it's 3x 20 pass sure could do with some simplification.

[MaxxxRacer]

I have no comments regarding the MoraRestriction 2

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

*MoreRestriction 2 :-P
I want to see someone hack the ends off those tubes and make it a normal double-pass rad :)

[MaxxxRacer]

serious waste of money...

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

well duh.

[MaxxxRacer]

hey some people who are less knowledgeable might think otherwise and purchase the item in question..

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

happens all the time. Then again, people buy bigwaters.

[saratoga]

I think single pass is probably better for most people. Radiator performance generally doesn't drop off until you get into fairly low flow rates; lower then people here are ever going to go. However that can vary depending on the design, so its kind of hard to say that its better in all cases.

[Master_G]

so essentially its a balancing act...
As with quite a lot of watercooling. I want to see the price in the UK, they certainly dont look all that new and exciting, gotta wait for the PA120s now.

G

[dacooltech]

Looks like they're all out of stock still like they've been since last week. And just a heads to everyone, a certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling field for quite some time has made some vague references to these new rads. The impression I got was that the performance of this line would be underwhelming. This is deffinitely a product in which you'll want to wait for the reviews before upgrading.

RVWinkle, FYI many ProCoolers, including myself kept bugging Willie over @HWLabs for a single pass radi for a long time... and last year we received the first single pass Pro 3 radis from HWlabs, and we loved them...
pH's single-pass Pro3 (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=11052&highlight=black+ice+pro)

So HWlabs manufactured the single-pass X-Flow radiators based on the demand...

let me tell you this, as someone using a single-pass Pro3 for quite some time now: radiator performance-wise single-pass X-Flow radis perform the same as their dual-pass Black Ice siblings... But single-pass radiator helps certain water-blocks (ie impingement design) to perform slightly better...

Post Edited by MR

[MaxxxRacer]

I will still remain a little skeptical.. There is a reason that thermochill went with dual pass with the new PA120.X series and not single pass like the PA160....

[EnJoY]

As Cathar, Marci, Maxxx and many others have stated in regards to dual-pass versus single-pass. There are several factors in determining the performance benefit of each, and when it comes down to it it's actually quite simple. One method works better for some style radiators, and one works better for another.

[dacooltech]

I will still remain a little skeptical.. There is a reason that thermochill went with dual pass with the new PA120.X series and not single pass like the PA160....

Cathar and/or Marci might state the reasoning behind this ofcourse... But I don't think the main issue is performance difference between dual pass vs single pass.
The issue with single-pass is that you grow the rad vertically and that may cause compatibility issues with most cases... among other things this was also discussed in that procooling thread from last year. (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=11052&highlight=black+ice+pro)

BTW the next generation radis from HWlabs will be released soon ;) X-Flow is just a single-pass config of the popular Black Ice series, not the next gen radis...

[cartmanea]

The issue with single-pass is that you grow the rad vertically and that may cause compatibility issues with most cases...
WHAT? :stick: What do yo mean by "grow the rad vertically"? They are the same rad with different tanks, the small change in dimensions will not cause hardly any incompatibility so that is not the major issue. :slap:

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

I think he means the continuing elongation of radiators. Not sure, though.

[dacooltech]

WHAT? :stick: What do yo mean by "grow the rad vertically"? They are the same rad with different tanks, the small change in dimensions will not cause hardly any incompatibility so that is not the major issue. :slap:
guess i should not refer to it as an issue, but as a major difference between single-pass vs dual-pass radiators in general...

FYI dual Pass Pro is 157mm (6.2") and X-Flow Pro is 172mm (6.8")... actually 15mm difference is very good for a single-pass radi over its dual-pass sibling... HWlabs definitely did an excellent job here...
but still can be a problem with some cases... also don't forget most cases with 120mm intake or exhaust fan openings have more room in the upper or lower section... the dual-pass BI radis are longer on the tank side, but shorter at the bottom...

[cartmanea]

Its really not an issue at all. They had to make the lower tank larger to accomodate the fitting and I think both were enlarged slightly because the water has to flow full length in the tanks to reach the opposite side. There is no increase in cooling surface area though, it is purely a difference in tank size.

[MaxxxRacer]

Well im glad they will be making a new rad... its been a long time..

I assume this one that you refer to will have a lower FPI.. any other details that are noteworthy?

[RVWinkle]

let me tell you this, as someone using a single-pass Pro3 for quite some time now: radiator performance-wise single-pass X-Flow radis perform the same as their dual-pass Black Ice siblings... But single-pass radiator helps certain water-blocks (ie impingement design) to perform slightly better...

This is some interesting information. I expected the same performance aspect and it's why I tried to caution 'upgraders'. I can't wait to see some good reviews. The price is excelent though.



BTW how objective is that "certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling" ?
Is he involved in design / manufacturing of competing radiators ? well if that's the case, he can't be really objective now can he?

Haha you bring up a very good point that I sometimes forget. :)

[Cathar]

BTW the next generation radis from HWlabs will be released soon ;) X-Flow is just a single-pass config of the popular Black Ice series, not the next gen radis...

So basically no one should be buying an X-Flow rad then until the next-gen rads come out? Certainly seems that way if the next-gen rad release is imminent.

Not that such a revelation surprises me though. Marci and I deliberately waited until the X-Flow was out and about marketing wise before releasing the PA120's, but we rather cynically commented to each other the possibility that HWLabs would then announce yet another "Next-Gen" series of rads at about the same time as the PA120's were released.

[dacooltech]

So basically no one should be buying an X-Flow rad then until the next-gen rads come out? Certainly seems that way if the next-gen rad release is imminent.

I think people should be buying Black Ice dual-pass and single-pass X-Flow radis, especially at the current low prices... BI radis became an excellent value and I highly doubt these prices can go any lower...
I just wanted to highlight that the X-Flow radis are simply single-pass configs of Black Ice series... they are not the next-gen radis from HWlabs that people been waiting for...
I have no pricing info, whatsoever, but the price of the next-gen radis will be much higher IMHO...

[Master_G]

That's marketing for you.

G

[dacooltech]

That's marketing for you.

G

for who?

[Cathar]

Will just be interesting to see what pops out at the end of the day. This "Next Gen" range has been on the cards for how long now? It's been somewhat amusing watching the game of cat'n'mouse between the various radiator manufacturers as they all jostle for market mind-share.

One thing which I find somewhat of a misnomer "Power Users Demand - We Deliver!". Really? That was mentioned 3 months ago now and has anyone been delivered anything yet? :stick:

Just being "tongue-in-cheek" about it. No offense intended. At the end of the day the end-users will benefit and that's the important thing.

Water-cooling improvements are coming to the end of the road though. Managed to eke out as much performance as possible within the single 120 form factor without going to some radical changes (forwards looking), but it got to the point eventually where we were just picking balance points with the traditional radiator manufacturing principles. PA120's heavily focused on <=70cfm fan performance although they were not bested by anything else in a 120mm form factor up until around 120-130cfm of fannage. Got to a stage where no matter which way we twisted we simply couldn't get more out of a 120mm 10-30dBA fan performance range (10dBA being a Yate-Loon equivalent at 5v, 30dBA being a Panaflo L1A), and in the end had to make a decision on whether it was better to tune purely for that range (<=30dBA), or to tune more broadly up to 45dBA say. We decided it served the end-user community better to provide radiators that best worked in the manner in which water-cooling should be used, which is quiet & excellent cooling performance. The new PA rads still kick butt at higher airflows (as stated above), but rather than make them even better at insanely loud fan volumes, making them better at more tolerable volumes seemed to be more productive and useful.

As for single-pass vs dual-pass. At the sorts of flow rates that people see in systems it's also a matter of swings and roundabouts. In a 120mm form factor, for single-row cores single-pass can work better for flow-rates above 4-6LPM, but dual-pass is arguably better across the board. The 160.1 was single pass because of the low-air-flow restriction nature of the design and it benefitted it well. For smaller radiators it seems to close up somewhat. For dual or triple row cores, dual-pass is always better and flow restriction doesn't really come into it. The vast bulk of the flow restriction in these types of cores all comes from the fittings so being single or multi-pass internally makes very little pressure drop difference, and certainly next to completely insignificant when waterblocks are involved, so long as the radiators have correctly designed end-tanks.

There are other advances which we're looking into further down the road. Don't want to play all our cards at once and certainly don't want to reveal the whole hand to the wider market on a platter, suffice to say radiator performance improvements are not totally done-for yet, but certainly close. Probably another year or two away for those advances, again due to the complexity of eking out the last drops of performance, as well as the need to further investigate other avenues.

Still, this whole radiator development thing has been a real eye-opener for me, if only to open my eyes at the evident lack of adequate research that various companies have been putting into proper radiator design up until the last few months, as well as lack of a properly focused market goal. Simply saying that a radiator fits into a PC case is not enough, the radiators also need to perform well in the fannage scenarios that best match the desired goals of water-cooling's noise-performance benefit.

[hwlabs]

Worry not, Cathar, much has been accomplished in the 5 years we've been working on the matter. Our many tests and tweaks, however, simply aren't yielding the heat rejection targets that we've set, hence the monumental engineering efforts we are currently undertaking.

The Black Ice® XFlow radiators are an update stemming from requests by many customers seeking a more flow-optimized radiator for their increasingly constricted systems. We're quite astonished with the response though.

Most heat exchanger designs have been...well pushed to its technological limits. And no application has tested this realm even more than what we're all doing. It is almost like the formula one of heat exchangers. So much effort for so little yield.

That is why targets and practical compromises on noise and heat dissipation are being made by radiator designers right now.

We're working on a different paradigm, however.

Typical radiator manufacturers have little incentive to push their limits as the markets they serve do not have the constraints that computer radiators work in, not to mention the margins to support high level R&D.

I sincerely wish you chaps the best with the PA120.

Viva la difference! :)

[MaxxxRacer]

hwlabs (mind if we actually know your real name :stick: ),

I belive the market is long overdue for a quiet and powerful radiator.. One that you can attach fans like the yate-loons (nexus) and get good enugh airflow to where your performance is good.

Im just throwing out an idea here, but a lower FPI, double pass radiator might be the thing to do.

If its not too much trouble, make a BIX3 or BIX2 with 12FPI and slap either the yate-loon on there or one of thermaltakes thunderblade fans. run the same size BIX (regular) with those fans and compare.. If you get higher heat disipation from the 12FPI version.. congrats.. you have a product that will sell.

I for one am tired of having to use 38mm thick fans.. they are just too flipping big. That combined with the fact that You MUST run them at 7V or below or go deaf makes all of this very annoying.

[MaxxxRacer]

oh one other thing..

This is a request to both HWlabs and to Thermochill.

How about standardizing testing of the radiators so the end user can get some USEFUL data, and not the rather pointless dribble that is speewed out now.

Standardize the heat load, fans (maybe multiple fans), DeltaT of water to air, and flowrate.

~200watt hea load
5C Delta T (the current 10C i have been seing is rediculous unless you have a room that is like an ice cube, or are running 4x prescott based xeons)
1.2 to 1.5gpm (this seems to be where the average users flowrates are hitting with current hardware)

[Cathar]

Worry not, Cathar, much has been accomplished in the 5 years we've been working on the matter. Our many tests and tweaks, however, simply aren't yielding the heat rejection targets that we've set, hence the monumental engineering efforts we are currently undertaking.


Not unsurprising to me at all. Radiators are already pretty decent items and are a mature technology. There are certainly no HUGE gains left to be had, but this would've been fairly obvious simply through calculation of the C/W of the air-flow vs the C/W being achieved with the radiators presently in use. These claims of "a heatercore will always perform better than a PC optimised radiator", while true some years ago, is definitely not true any longer.



The Black Ice® XFlow radiators are an update stemming from requests by many customers seeking a more flow-optimized radiator for their increasingly constricted systems. We're quite astonished with the response though.


Yes, single-pass is now purely a market-driven buzz-word where people are hungry for what they perceive will perform better, but not that which actually will and is proven to perform better, and this is heavily evident within the mind-share of the water-cooling community. People believe that single-pass is better and will buy it in droves, regardless of the suitability of single-pass for higher performance. A shrewd marketing person will indeed take advantage of this and provide what people want to buy. It's a choice between making money, and making something better.



Most heat exchanger designs have been...well pushed to its technological limits. And no application has tested this realm even more than what we're all doing. It is almost like the formula one of heat exchangers. So much effort for so little yield.

That is why targets and practical compromises on noise and heat dissipation are being made by radiator designers right now.

We're working on a different paradigm, however.

Typical radiator manufacturers have little incentive to push their limits as the markets they serve do not have the constraints that computer radiators work in, not to mention the margins to support high level R&D.


It's long overdue that radiators would be optimised for PC use. Even with 100cfm fannage, the moment you start sticking things in a case and getting choked by case orifices, the actual air-flow is much lower. For far too long radiators have been optimised around 100-150cfm fan rated air-flows and it simply is the wrong way to be doing things.



I sincerely wish you chaps the best with the PA120.


Doesn't concern me either way. I make no money from it. I just want end-users to have a better water-cooling experience. Having that as a number one goal means that I am unconstrained by monetary pressures to design what the market feels that they want (buzz-word marketing), as opposed to honestly pushing progress along in the direction that the market actually needs. As I often say to many companies who approach me, I value my independence - it allows me to stay focused on the end-goal. Annoys the crap out of most people though as they don't understand someone who does something for no monetary gain.



Viva la difference! :)

Competition is always good. Enough words though. Let's see the goods Willie. :stick: :)



hwlabs (mind if we actually know your real name)


His name is Willie (Wilmont Yugue), and he's the CEO of HWLabs.

[Cathar]

oh one other thing..

This is a request to both HWlabs and to Thermochill.

How about standardizing testing of the radiators so the end user can get some USEFUL data, and not the rather pointless dribble that is speewed out now.

Standardize the heat load, fans (maybe multiple fans), DeltaT of water to air, and flowrate.

~200watt hea load
5C Delta T (the current 10C i have been seing is rediculous unless you have a room that is like an ice cube, or are running 4x prescott based xeons)
1.2 to 1.5gpm (this seems to be where the average users flowrates are hitting with current hardware)

I thought that Thermochill was doing a pretty good job of the above. :confused:

[Master_G]

for who?
Cathar before he deleted his post.

G

[hwlabs]

Cathar, you simply have no idea what it takes to bring things to fruition even after recognizing the limitations that have been reached.

And we can easily say that no one else in this "industry" has spent more time and resources to bring real development into this field.

But good things come to those who wait.

Mate, that's Wilbert and not Wilmont. ;)

It's not just about fin density. You can ram as much fins into a 120mm space to increase surface area but you get so much pressure drop you'd end up killing airflow.

Too little and it becomes laminar and you don't end up with anything.

[Cathar]

Cathar, you simply have no idea what it takes to bring things to fruition even after recognizing the limitations that have been reached.

And we can easily say that no one else in this "industry" has spent more time and resources to bring real development into this field.

But good things come to those who wait.


Well there you go, offhandedly dismissing the work of others, while espousing your own. For years and years people have directly asked you for the C/W curves of the HWLab radiators, and at what air-water delta and air-flows that the mythical heat dissipation ratings at HWLabs sites were achieved with, and for years this requests have been ignored. Once via PM at OCAU you admitted that you did not even have that data. I still have PM response from you BTW.

Excuse myself and others for being a little hesitant to believe claims of "intensive research". Such claims hold about as much weight as the heat dissipation ratings in the HWLabs advertising material.



Mate, that's Wilbert and not Wilmont. ;)


Forgive me. My honest apologies. Don't know where I got that from. Heck I even checked it right before I typed it in, and still typed it in wrong. :confused:



It's not just about fin density. You can ram as much fins into a 120mm space to increase surface area but you get so much pressure drop you'd end up killing airflow.


This is common knowledge as has been discussed publically for a long time now.



Too little and it becomes laminar and you don't end up with anything.

Huh? Air-flow is always laminar in short of at least 200CFM through a 12x12cm radiator. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point then.

As for me not knowing how long it takes and the effort required, excuse me, I must have amnesia with respect to my involvement in assisting ThermoChill for the last six months where we managed to develop 3 separate radiators that fairly conclusively blow the alternatives away across the range of fan powers that PC users use. You'll see them hit the market soon enough.

There you go again, being as dismissive of my work and efforts as you were three years ago over at OCAU. Be careful Willie, you're dealing with someone who's a lot more aware of what's going on than you'd like to believe.

I do so enjoy the verbal sparring that you and I engage in Willie, but the difference for me though is that I have nothing to lose because I don't earn an income from this, so I'm not compelled to inflect my words with marketing spiel.

[hwlabs]

Good of you to remember our encounters downunder, Cathar, but I do recall it was our work that was being dismissed in favor of a heatercore you saw somewhere. Big arse impressions do remain as stains on an ethical cloth. But I've considered that water under the bridge. :)

Cathar, just wait, mate.

People like someone you know in particular have driven us to enact measures to protect our product's designs. Releasing our stuff sooner rather than later is something that would be falling to the same level of naive trust.

It may be easier for you to deride and criticize efforts because of your independence, likewise dismissing efforts in bringing something beneficial to end users by veiled taunting remarks is just as easy. It goes both ways, mate.

Nonetheless, I do admire your work, and I hope this didn't come across as patronizing.

No disrespect to you, Cathar, I'm sure you've spent a lot of time in determining the optimum fan capacity in relation to noise and derived your preferred core configuration. And by my impressions you've done so without any form of compensation.

Certainly 6 months is a lot of time, but we've been at it far longer and the real bills we've paid are substantial. From integrating engineering disciplines around the world, hundreds of hours of wind tunnel testing, to getting support from key industry persons, and not to mention obtaining financial backing.

At this point its no longer about just tweaks anymore for us, it's re-engineering, hence next-gen. Otherwise it'd be somewhere in between.

If true improvement is the direction that you're looking at for end users, then we have nothing to disagree about.

The engineering changes to our new units are radical. The equipment required to produce parts for these are incredibly more complex (expensive), and toolings alone are so custom and precise that a simple regrind would be an easy $30,000 if a chip of copper gets stuck in between.

If these things are likewise "dismissed" as marketing banter then there's little merit in anything that we do.

I'd be more than glad to send you some of these for your own assessment when the time comes.

But do understand, Cathar, we're guarded simply because not everyone has the same kind of altruism as you do. ;)

Potato tomato..., the reason why fins are outfitted with louvers is to create turbulence on the surface of the fins. If you have an unusually wide gap such as 12fpi in between you get a lot of airflow but you certainly don't get to use all the air for heat transfer where it counts.

[Cathar]

It's all good Willie. I always look forwards to seeing better products for end-users. Right up until I concluded work with ThermoChill I was still commonly recommending the HWLabs BIP3 as the high performance radiator of choice, even while assisting Thermochill, just as an example of my altruism on this.

I'm quite aware of who you're talking about with respect to your hand being forced. Heck, he even takes pride in it. Would love to see you answer in style and make him eat his pride. That would give me joy.

I've never had anything against HWLabs, as I stated 3-4 years ago, and as is true today, my goal has always been to see reliable information on performance and that's what sparked off that discourse back then. I would be one of the first in line to openly applaud HWLabs if you finally proved me wrong and stepped up to the plate with actual performance data, which is all everyone has been requesting for the last 4 years.

Good to see that HWLab's historically high profit margins have been put to good use though. I engaged a local heater-core/radiator manufacturer here in Australia and even to contract them to make something like a BIP1-BIX3 in quantities of 1000 would cost around $30-45AUD per unit for a raw core, so it is good to see prices finally coming down to more sane levels. I definitely applaud HWLabs for finally doing that, although it must be said that it did take some serious competition to get that to finally happen eh? Don't worry, I have no aspirations to be a radiator manufacturer, but I did want to be aware of what the costs were, even in a fairly "high-cost-of-manufacture" country like Australia. On top of that I am also very much aware of the ~$20K AUD tooling up charges for a final complete design, but if it's possible to use established end-tanks then the prices are much lower. Still, amortised over a production run of 10000 we're still talking manageable costs.

At the end of the day, top-performance and low costs are what people want. Sadly Thermochill doesn't fit the latter too well, so they have to focus on top-performance.

For sure, I'd love to have and test a radiator of your next-gen models. If it works better than what Thermochill and I've designed, you can be sure that you'd see me recommend it when people ask in forums, just as I've done with HWLabs radiators in the past. I'm a fair and honest person and I like to think that I've always shown that and always shown that I've had the end-user's best interests at heart. After all, what I want now is the same thing that I wanted 4 years ago. The best possible water-cooling setup. I'm just prepared to build/design/influence whomever or whatever to make it happen if at all possible.

[hwlabs]

No worries, mate. We're good. ;)

We're working on the cost issue too. It is often easier to intro a product with little or no research by just standing up on the shoulders of those who laid the foundation.

Users will get good stuff at better prices. But know that retailers also play a role in wanting to stock up an item and sell it at a reasonable profit. The sweet spot for rads of varying quality will be determined by the market.

I guess just because we don't publicize what we do with what we've "earned". I doubt people would be interested.

But one of the major things we've done to increase quality and lower cost is to set up our own tool and die facility. I've got 2 CNC mills doing that along with a toolroom compliment and a crew of 4 people.

Tooling right now isn't as much an issue for us as the real technology and techniques we've developed for the new radiators.

The usual tool and die industry "just doesn't get it" when it comes to our requirements.

Likewise we cater to a lot of custom work, needing low volume items for manufacture.

It isn't as much as competition as preparation and scale that got prices lower from us. Our distros know that every saving we can derive from operations is passed on to them. But we still prefer to give users a choice that conforms to their budgets and performance targets.

Despite the usual flak and the ocassional uninspiring mime, I still love what I do.

We've come a long way from transmission oil coolers and this industry moving forward is a good thing to know.

[MaxxxRacer]

Stew my comment on perfrmance data was, admittedly aimed more at HWlabs as they have never (not to my knowledge anyway) released legit performance numbers in the entire history of the company.

The part of my comment geared towards thermochill was to work with HWlabs to decide on predefined test conditions as they already do release all of the performance data / perfomrance predictions (that would be your area stew)

[Cathar]

Stew my comment on perfrmance data was, admittedly aimed more at HWlabs as they have never (not to my knowledge anyway) released legit performance numbers in the entire history of the company.

The part of my comment geared towards thermochill was to work with HWlabs to decide on predefined test conditions as they already do release all of the performance data / perfomrance predictions (that would be your area stew)

The problem there is always going to be on getting agreement.

BillA used to calculate of the average of the inlet/outlet temps as per more general radiator industry standard, but for PC water-cooling use the values this method gives I think isn't as useful as another method (which I'll describe in a bit).

Les at Procooling convinced Bill that he should then be calculating around the inlet temperature, because that can be controlled fairly steadily. Measure how many watts it takes to hold the inlet temperature at either 5C or 10C (or whatever) above ambient, and then the C/W is just an easy division of the wattage by the temp delta. Still though I don't feel that this gives a value that PC users actually want though, and in truth I believe that this method understates the actual C/W.

I prefer the method of calculating the difference between the radiator outlet and the air intake temperature. Why? Both of the above methods require you to know what the thermal capacity of the water is and calculate the discharge temperature of the water from the radiator. I like the wattage divided by (water-outlet - air-intake) version of C/W better because this allows the users to know what the temperature of the water coming out of the radiator will be in a simple and usable fashion, and not have to calculate it dependent upon what the flow rate is (i.e. the thermal mass rate through the radiator).

The way I see a test loop is like this:

radiator out -> temp sensor #1 -> pump -> flow controller (tap) -> flow rate sensor -> temp sensor #2 -> water heater giving fixed wattage -> temp sensor #3 -> radiator in

and for the air:

fan -> intake plenum + temp sensor #4 -> radiator -> outlet plenum + temp sensor #5 -> exhaust

Now the tester using the above setup can determine the total number of watts being dumped into the water from the pump + frictional restriction from the tap, from the heater, and overall by subtracting sensor #3 from sensor #1, and multiplying by the thermal mass flow rate of the liquid. In this way we know exactly how much wattage has been added from the radiator outlet to the radiator inlet. This is pretty much like a normal cooling loop where the radiator cools, and everything else adds heat.

So basically we set the heater such that 200W of heat, or as close to it as possible, is caclulated to be added to the water between the radiator outlet and inlet.

Now by providing what the water-out minus air-in differental is (at various flow rates) then we give the end users an exact way to calculate how warm the water will be coming out of their radiator (and into their waterblocks) depending on whatever heat-load they have. The first two methods require the users to calculate the thermal mass-flow rate of their liquid and calculate the outlet temperature, whereas the method I propose above (and use in my testing) gives a simple way to work out the outlet temperature of the radiator for a given heat-load, flow rate, and fan-type.

The above method also gives substantially lower C/W values that the first two methods, but this is just a side-effect of where the calculations are being taken from. When you calculate from the lowest water temperature (the radiator outlet) the water-air delta is always going to be smaller, but ultimately I believe that this value is more useful, and further, it allows for a way to directly calculate the radiator efficiency.

Just me 2c, and the method that I use to calculate C/W's for a radiator, and it also explains why the C/W's that I calculate are a little bit lower than BillA calculated.

[MaxxxRacer]

Interesting. that is the same way i ended up doing the testing of the BIX and CoolRad.. Obviously minus the 3 extra sensors.

but in any case I do find the way you outlined to be the best way to give useful results to everyday users..

[Craig]

I will still remain a little skeptical.. There is a reason that thermochill went with dual pass with the new PA120.X series and not single pass like the PA160....


I can think of one very good reason........XXXX number of end tanks to use up! !

LOL!!

IMO, fin count optimisation is going to do more for performance than just a switch to single pass. Single pass with a optimised fin count would be of interest, but not single pass alone.

Edit:

Another thought, a 120.3 with lower fin count might just be interesting to have go head to head with a monster core. A interesting match up......could the 4th fan & greater surface area of the core make the differance still? Air side performance would go to the 120.3 for sure by a large margin.

Hmmmm, this could cost me money......again. LOL! !

[Craig]

Cathar posted that the new Pa120.x type rads will be set up with fin counts to best work with fans of 20-70cfm (20cfm = YL @ 5v?).

And considering that HWLabs says it trys to provide what power users want.......

We can perhaps look forward to the new gen HWLabs product being set up for higher CFM rates for the power users (compared to the Pa120.x rads). If they make the new gen rads to perform best with fans of from 60-110cfm, then between the two companys we'd have something for everyone.


Will be interesting to see the new Thermochill's and HWLabs "new gen" rads & how they compare & where each new products sweet spot is for both noise & performance.

[Cathar]

Craig, as I tried to impart, the PA120.x, when faced with a choice between ekeing out difference of ~0.002C/W at high fan noise vs lower fan noise, we went with the lower fan noise focused tweak.

Even when between 60-110CFM I still think you'd be hard pressed to find anything that's going to trounce a PA120.3. There's certainly nothing on that market today that will, and that includes these heater-cores that various people seem to think are "always better than any PC-radiator". Coupled with 110cfm fans the PA120.3 would still handily beat out a HE120.3. It's only as you get much above 110cfm is where the older style radiators start to come good, and that's a heck of a lot of noise.

It will be interesting to see what HWLabs brings to the table with their next-gen rads though.

I've always believed that if a radiator can offer close to as good performance with 3 x 70cfm fans as another radiator with 3 x 100cfm fans, then this still serves "power users" just as well. "Power Users" now have a choice though. They can enjoy the same cooling power for less noise, or they can keep the same noise levels and enjoy better performance.

[ls7corvete]

Splitting hairs here people. I can count the number of people who will can tell the difference on my fingers, do I need my toes as well?

Again I play advocate for the poor guy as I am happy enough with BIP price and performance.

Ah well, this is how advances come along I guess. Will HW's new line be replacing current products or are they in addition to them?

[Cathar]

ls7corvete, you have a habit of always dissing advances, although I'm not sure why. If people are after a "good enough" solution they'll stick to the stock heatsink that comes with their CPU, and certainly not bother with water-cooling. The stock heatsink that came with my 5yo daughter's 4400X2 machine does a decent enough job of keeping the CPU cool and is fairly quiet, or at least I can't hear it over the noise of the stock 6800GT cooler fan.

You are quite correct - this is how advances happen. Making bleeding edge advances is neither cheap, and certainly not targetted for the "good enough" crowd. Two years down the road the "good enough" crowd will probably end up using it anyway when the prices come down, but this is the here and now, and we're discussing the leading edge of advancements here and now. Can one thread go by without you moaning constantly about the cost of leading edge technology that benefits what the poor person gets to use sometime down the road?

Shall we not advance anything? Would that make you happier?

I've got a bad case of the flu, am tired, sick and grumpy. Excuse me.

[ls7corvete]

ls7corvete, you have a habit of always dissing advances, although I'm not sure why. If people are after a "good enough" solution they'll stick to the stock heatsink that comes with their CPU, and certainly not bother with water-cooling. The stock heatsink that came with my 5yo daughter's 4400X2 machine does a decent enough job of keeping the CPU cool and is fairly quiet, or at least I can't hear it over the noise of the stock 6800GT cooler fan.

You are quite correct - this is how advances happen. Making bleeding edge advances is neither cheap, and certainly not targetted for the "good enough" crowd. Two years down the road the "good enough" crowd will probably end up using it anyway when the prices come down, but this is the here and now, and we're discussing the leading edge of advancements here and now. Can one thread go by without you moaning constantly about the cost of leading edge technology that benefits what the poor person gets to use sometime down the road?

Shall we not advance anything? Would that make you happier?

I've got a bad case of the flu, am tired, sick and grumpy. Excuse me.


No dissing, just saying what you said in the second paragraph. I dont expect prices to go down from the point they are at and I dont expect performance to increase from where they are at. I just think people should be more aware of the differences.

The comment on performance was more focused on the discussion rather than my veiws on price and performance. You both got good products but when it comes down to it I know I dont have the knowledge to tell/measure the difference in perfomance.


Can one thread go by without you moaning constantly about the cost of leading edge technology that benefits what the poor person gets to use sometime down the road?

Heh, I seem to hit a nerve with you. We do have similar thoughts on many issues.

I think the following says more than anything though. The answer gives a big insight into the flow from cutting edge to mainstream for these new rads.


Will HW's new line be replacing current products or are they in addition to them?

[masturdebat3rr]

you make a lot of sense stew.... but what i dont' get is why does your five year old daughter get such a kick arse rig T_T

[ls7corvete]

you make a lot of sense stew.... but what i dont' get is why does your five year old daughter get such a kick arse rig T_T

Yea, whats that put you on? Last I heard it was a socket A. You should have enough parts sitting around to get her rig WCed, though I shouldnt say anything about that as Im not even WCed at the moment.

[Weapon]

You are quite correct - this is how advances happen. Making bleeding edge advances is neither cheap, and certainly not targetted for the "good enough" crowd.

Agreed. Developing any solid component, heat exchanger or otherwise, is neither cheap nor quick. It is normally an expensive and time consuming process that has many more bumps and barriers to completion than could be foreseen from the outset. Clearing each one of the problems to smooth out the process to where you have a nice looking (i.e. no jagged edges waiting to lash open bare flesh) and solid performing part adds to the time and expense.

Pricing is always big barrier to pushing things beyond the status quo. I have at least 5 radiator designs that will likely never get past the CAD program on my desktop due to the cost of making even a single prototype of any of those particular designs. One in particular has serious potential from a performance perspective but it also requires custom gauges for fins, an unusual fin crimping pattern, custom-drawn flat-tubing with extremely complex walls and way too many machining steps. As for any of the 5 designs, would they work? Absolutely. Would anyone be willing to pay for them at what it costs to produce them? Seriously doubt it. Odds of even breaking if they were produced in any volume? Slim to none.

Of course, some of you guys surprise me when it comes to paying for that last .05 degree of performance but no one likes staring at a radiator with a $250+ price tag even if it does floor everything else on the market performance-wise. On the otherhand, could any of the above-mentioned designs be toned down to where a slight performance boost could be had at an almost reasonable price? probably. :)

[MaxxxRacer]

While I do strive for that every last picodegree of performance, I must admit when the cost to benefits ratio goes out the window and is just not worth it..

BUT the PA120.X series and hopefully the new series from HWLabs will not fit under that category.. The PA120.X series is designed to give excelent performance at good noise levels.. NOT just max performance, be damed the noise level.. In my mind the PA120.X series is an advancement not so much in performance as it is in usability.

[Marlowe]

So when will these new rads be availible?

I liked your method of measuring, Cathar. It's logically the most interesting method for PC watercooling.

[Weapon]

While I do strive for that every last picodegree of performance, I must admit when the cost to benefits ratio goes out the window and is just not worth it..

BUT the PA120.X series and hopefully the new series from HWLabs will not fit under that category.. The PA120.X series is designed to give excelent performance at good noise levels.. NOT just max performance, be damed the noise level.. In my mind the PA120.X series is an advancement not so much in performance as it is in usability.

so...what would a rad be worth if it would cool on par with a shrouded 302 with dual san aces at 12v but only require san aces at around 6v? lol - maxxx, I aimed that question at you because I know you are perfectly aware of the fact that a modded san ace at 6v is on the verge of completely silent.

as soon as I get a bit more time to track down the last of the required materials, I am going to build at least 2 of them regardless of cost... :D

[Craig]

Craig, as I tried to impart, the PA120.x, when faced with a choice between ekeing out difference of ~0.002C/W at high fan noise vs lower fan noise, we went with the lower fan noise focused tweak.

Even when between 60-110CFM I still think you'd be hard pressed to find anything that's going to trounce a PA120.3. There's certainly nothing on that market today that will, and that includes these heater-cores that various people seem to think are "always better than any PC-radiator". Coupled with 110cfm fans the PA120.3 would still handily beat out a HE120.3. It's only as you get much above 110cfm is where the older style radiators start to come good, and that's a heck of a lot of noise.

It will be interesting to see what HWLabs brings to the table with their next-gen rads though.

I've always believed that if a radiator can offer close to as good performance with 3 x 70cfm fans as another radiator with 3 x 100cfm fans, then this still serves "power users" just as well. "Power Users" now have a choice though. They can enjoy the same cooling power for less noise, or they can keep the same noise levels and enjoy better performance.


I fully understood your post Cathar.

I've always chased the lowest temps I can get, just my choice, but would be very glad of a noise reduction. I was not jesting regarding these new rads costing me money, if the Pa120.3 or HWLabs new rad can offer me the same , or lower temps, as a Monster Core & it's 4 fans then I'll buy it.

To be honest, I'm interested in seeing what design changes HWLabs is hinting at. And also to see what it's targeted best performance point is as well as any noise reduction it may offer.

The more choices between good products we have the better for everyone.

Monster Core finned face area is 10.25" x 10.75" (2" thick), combined with a Weapon 4 chamber shroud it's very good. I'm not one who's sure cores can't be beat, most can be. But I've not seen a "for PC" rad yet that I'm convinced can beat this core/shroud combo on temps. Would be glad to see you & Marci bring that off.

Have you done any testing of a Monster core & shroud vs the new Thermochills? I've no doubts regarding the Thermochills noise level reduction, it has to be VERY large, but what are the differance in temps?

[Craig]

Should have said I've not seen any rad in the same size range that beats the Monster core/shroud combo. The big Lytrons or a car rad can for sure, but harder to find a place for. Monster core or a 120.3 type is my limit for size.

[Cathar]

Craig, should qualify my statements as meaning like-for-like size (thickness excluded - pick any thickness you like - radiator thickness is a two-edged sword). Make anything big enough and all bets are off.

[MaxxxRacer]

Rod -

sanaces at 6v... i run my sanaces at around 9 volts usually as I find 7v to not give me enough flow through the core or BIX.. so i imagine 6volts to be super silent.. prolly equal to yate loons at 10volts or so...

with that said, a core, or any rad that could perform well and is designed for fans of that flow would be the perfect radiator.

BUT I do NOT want to use 38mm thick fans anymore.. they are just too freeking big.. a rad designed to use 25mm thick fans is what im really after... And I can assume that a rad that is designed for 6v sanaces will work well with 25mm thick fans.

[Weapon]

Craig, should qualify my statements as meaning like-for-like size (thickness excluded - pick any thickness you like - radiator thickness is a two-edged sword). Make anything big enough and all bets are off.

Size is the one factor that cannot be easily beaten with air cooled heat exchangers.

For those who wonder why you cannot cram the cooling of a monster core into a package the size of a single 120mm radiator...

Atmospheric air (i.e. low pressure gases) give a very low heat transfer coefficient at normal velocities. The coolant/water running through the tubes in a radiator have a coefficient that is much higher (think 100x). To clarify that, the fluid in the heat exchange process has a much higher film heat transfer coefficient than the air surrounding the radiator. Water normally has something in the range of 1000-1500 Btu/hr ft2°F and air at normal atmospheric pressure rings in at about 10. Such a drastic imbalance leads to the unavoidable result that the size/surface area of a heat exchanger is almost completely controlled by the necessity of having a large amount of surface area in contact with the poor heat transfer medium (air). Large amounts of surface area require a large amount of fins to provide that surface area and that is where you hit the balancing act.

The balancing act is surface area for heat transfer vs. size restrictions vs. air flow resistance. You can only fit so much surface area in a 5.5" x 5.5" or an 11" x 5.5" area. To a point, the more fins packed in that area = the greater the heat dumping ability of the radiator. However, forcing air through tightly packed fins requires a substantial amount of air pressure in order to maintain a decent amount of airflow through the fins. Fans capable of moving that amount of air are anything but silent. So, you start balancing surface area vs. air resistance so that quiter fans can move sufficient amounts of air through the fins. Balancing act #2 is making sure the amount of surface area available on less tightly packed fins is still adequate to remove the heat from the CPU/GPU/etc. that is added to the coolant.

To make a long story short, you can make the entire radiator out of the most heat conductive substances available, design the tube-to-fin interface so that there is as little resistance as possible, tweak your fin thickness and geometry so that temperature distribution throughout the fins is as close to perfect as can be achieved (see "Extended Surface Heat Transfer" by Kern and Kraus), work out your waterflow through the tanks and flow tubes, build the perfect plenum chamber (better known as a weapon shroud ;) ), etc. and you will still run into a performance wall that is a result of the simple fact that air basically sucks as a heat transfer medium as compared to water and there is a point where nothing but more surface area will fix it.

With all that said, I am going back designing my entire radiator out of the most heat conductive substances available, working on the ultra-low-thermal-resistance tube-to-fin interface, tweaking my fin thickness and geometry so that temperature distribution throughout the fins is as close to perfect as can be achieved while banging my forehead against my copy of "Extended Surface Heat Transfer" by Kern and Kraus, working out waterflow through the tanks and flow tubes, building the perfect plenum chamber, etc. :D


Rod -

sanaces at 6v... i run my sanaces at around 9 volts usually as I find 7v to not give me enough flow through the core or BIX.. so i imagine 6volts to be super silent.. prolly equal to yate loons at 10volts or so...

with that said, a core, or any rad that could perform well and is designed for fans of that flow would be the perfect radiator.

BUT I do NOT want to use 38mm thick fans anymore.. they are just too freeking big.. a rad designed to use 25mm thick fans is what im really after... And I can assume that a rad that is designed for 6v sanaces will work well with 25mm thick fans.

Yeah, 109R1212H101s at 6v are whispery and 7v is about the same.

hmmm...25mm san aces shouldn't be a problem. I think I have some of those lurking in a box around here somewhere.

edit to fix 2am typos after spending all day in court... :doh:

[Cathar]

Agree with everything you said Weapon, except for this point:



there is a point where nothing but more surface area will fix it.


Surely you meant more air-flow. If the radiator transfer is "perfect" then the exhaust air temp matches the water-out temp, and since you can't take more heat out of the water than the air can hold, then the ONLY solution is to increase air-flow.

This is where the larger sizes helps. Immensely easier to achieve double the air-flow through a 1 x 120 radiator by going to a 2 x 120 radiator and adding an extra fan, as opposed to sticking a bigger fan on a 1 x 120mm radiator. To push double the air-flow through the same radiator requires around 7-8x the effort on the fan's part, and correspondingly crap-loads more noise than just two low-noise fans.

In a "perfect heat transfer scenario", doubling the radiator size requires only double the fan effort to achieve double the air-flow and correspondingly lower water temperatures, and therefore is just a LOT easier to do quietly.

Only problem is where do you put some of these larger radiators? IMO, 2 x 120mm radiators or comparably sized (e.g. PA160, or the old DTek Pro cores) is the "sweet spot" size for radiators in terms of mountability and manageability and performance all in one package.

[Fairydust]

...Atmospheric air (i.e. low pressure gases) give a very low heat transfer coefficient at normal velocities. The coolant/water running through the tubes in a radiator have a coefficient that is much higher (think 100x). ...

It's 25x, λ 0,024 W/mK Air vs. λ 0,6 W/mK Water (of course the coefficients vary with temperature but let's use these for simplicity).

[Weapon]

Agree with everything you said Weapon, except for this point:



Surely you meant more air-flow. If the radiator transfer is "perfect" then the exhaust air temp matches the water-out temp, and since you can't take more heat out of the water than the air can hold, then the ONLY solution is to increase air-flow.



lol - 2am thought patterns - I was thinking of how to increase heat dumping capacity with a certain fan type (low cfm/quiet fans) without increasing fin density per inch (i.e. increase the size of the core area with the same FPI and add another fan). I either need to start sleeping more or drinking more coffee - not sure which.

With regards to where to put a larger rad, I actually found something on a Japanese site (non-computer related) that I am considering giving a test run. They have heat exchangers (for room heating and cooling) that are somewhat of a cross between art and function -- since my computer room has enough heat exchangers laying around it to look like I have adopted finned metal as neo-industrial decor, I might as well bolt one to the wall and call it art. ;)

Seriously though, a dual 120 size is about perfect for most cases (even if a little large for some due to the way some cases are laid out...the case makers obviously never intended anything other than aircooling for some of them). Still, it is hard to resist going larger for coolant that stays as close to ambient temp as possible when shooting for the max OC without breaking out the phase change gear (and you should design an evaporator at some point...a Cathar Evap sounds interesting :D ).

As for where to mount something the size of a monstercore, I have a two-tiered computer desk that is a fairly deep -- a monstercore bolts nicely to the back of it and is basically invisible without close inspection. I did a simple case mod that puts an inlet and outlet on the lower back of my case so it is easy enough to move around if I need to change something. As an added benefit, all of the heat is dumped from the inside of the case straight out the back of my desk. San Aces running in the 7-9v range are close to silent and it holds the coolant to amazingly low temps. :) It will obviously never make a trip to a LAN party but I have a phase change box for that.


It's 25x, λ 0,024 W/mK Air vs. λ 0,6 W/mK Water (of course the coefficients vary with temperature but let's use these for simplicity).


Water normally has something in the range of 1000-1500 Btu/hr ft2°F and air at normal atmospheric pressure rings in at about 10.
source - Extended Surface Heat Transfer by Kern and Kraus and some other heat transfer data book whose name eludes me at the moment....by Btu/hr ft2°F its 100x.

[ls7corvete]

lol - 2am thought patterns - I was thinking of how to increase heat dumping capacity with a certain fan type (low cfm/quiet fans) without increasing fin density per inch (i.e. increase the size of the core area with the same FPI and add another fan). I either need to start sleeping more or drinking more coffee - not sure which.

With regards to where to put a larger rad, I actually found something on a Japanese site (non-computer related) that I am considering giving a test run. They have heat exchangers (for room heating and cooling) that are somewhat of a cross between art and function -- since my computer room has enough heat exchangers laying around it to look like I have adopted finned metal as neo-industrial decor, I might as well bolt one to the wall and call it art. ;)

Seriously though, a dual 120 size is about perfect for most cases (even if a little large for some due to the way some cases are laid out...the case makers obviously never intended anything other than aircooling for some of them). Still, it is hard to resist going larger for coolant that stays as close to ambient temp as possible when shooting for the max OC without breaking out the phase change gear (and you should design an evaporator at some point...a Cathar Evap sounds interesting :D ).

As for where to mount something the size of a monstercore, I have a two-tiered computer desk that is a fairly deep -- a monstercore bolts nicely to the back of it and is basically invisible without close inspection. I did a simple case mod that puts an inlet and outlet on the lower back of my case so it is easy enough to move around if I need to change something. As an added benefit, all of the heat is dumped from the inside of the case straight out the back of my desk. San Aces running in the 7-9v range are close to silent and it holds the coolant to amazingly low temps. :) It will obviously never make a trip to a LAN party but I have a phase change box for that.




source - Extended Surface Heat Transfer by Kern and Kraus and some other heat transfer data book whose name eludes me at the moment....by Btu/hr ft2°F its 100x.


What we really need is a case designed specifically for WCing. I think a triple rad without mods would be a nice feature.

[MaxxxRacer]

That would be a nice feature... but you must admit i do a good job with the mods :D

[nkcd]

so, a quick question, are these X-flows are suppose to be better than the BIP while being quiet?

[3Tripnip]

so, a quick question, are these X-flows are suppose to be better than the BIP while being quiet?

Excellent question. I'd like to know this as well before I open and install my new BIP III ;)

[MaxxxRacer]

If u got a BIP3 dont bother with these..

infact.. just dont bother with them.

[Marci]

The usual tool and die industry "just doesn't get it" when it comes to our requirements.

Heh... yer telling me they don't!! Doesn't get it, doesn't hit it, and doesn't cut it...! My forehead would be bleeding if they hadn't given me a padded room...

[moonlightcheese]

What we really need is a case designed specifically for WCing. I think a triple rad without mods would be a nice feature.
http://www.bit-tech.net/modding/2005/08/04/gigabyte_aurora_case/1.html

[nkcd]

If u got a BIP3 dont bother with these..

infact.. just dont bother with them.


I was suggest to get to get BIP2 from Moonlightcheese, but I'm wondering if these would work better in a restrictive flow blocks from aquaxtreme.

so 1 for 1, 2 for 2, or 3 for 3 (x120mm sizes), these wouldn't be able to beat the regular Pros?

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

so where does an unmodded triple rad go?

[BillA]

Bill -

no flamming/attacking/swearing. If you have a beef with Bruce, take it elsewhere

MR

[Mr. Tinker]

wow.

btw, all this competition is nothing but good for us consumers, as long as it stays constructive.

And Cathar SHOULD be handsomely rewarded for his work.

Nice thread you started, NoL.

[moonlightcheese]

I was suggest to get to get BIP2 from Moonlightcheese, but I'm wondering if these would work better in a restrictive flow blocks from aquaxtreme.

so 1 for 1, 2 for 2, or 3 for 3 (x120mm sizes), these wouldn't be able to beat the regular Pros?
the PA120 will easily beat the Pro radiators nkcd. however, they are not in most peoples' price range.

[nkcd]

the PA120 will easily beat the Pro radiators nkcd. however, they are not in most peoples' price range.


Yea, I'd notice that too. So putting the PA120.x aside, for quietness 2x120mm size, then then BIP2 would outperform the X-flow pro 2 correct?

[saratoga]

Bill -

no flamming/attacking/swearing. If you have a beef with Bruce, take it elsewhere

MR

WTF max? This sort of editing is not acceptable.

[Mr. Tinker]

I read what Bill said, and it really lost some of my respect for him.

[Craig]

Bruce also seems to like to bait Bill & sometimes goes out of his way to do so. Note how he always jumps in to quickly point out why HE thinks Bill has a bias. You would think that by now he'd get tired of spouting the same thing over, and over, and over. Vast majority know full well where Bills been working until very recently, yet Bill's opinions and thoughts are still highly respected and looked for. What in fact shows very clearly is Bruce has a axe to grind.

As Bruce's post claiming, "Bill's biased" was allowed to stand, then only right Bill's should also be allowed. And I say that having seen how Bill lets fly in the past when PO'd, but I'm also VERY tired of reading Bruce's poorly done BS attacks on Bill's reputation. Poor call Maxxx, you allowed Bruce to spout BS, then check and edit Bill's response.

Bruce can only hope to ever be as well respected, and for sure he never will be so long as he conducts himself as he's done here.

[Craig]

I read what Bill said, and it really lost some of my respect for him.

Yeah, Bill gets pretty hot sometimes. But keep a eye out for Bruce's comments like those he's posted here, at to many sites to count.

Bruce is the one who I respect less & less for his constent baiting of Bill. Bruce's own bias & dislike of Bill are shining through very clearly. While I'd rather see Bill show more restraint in how he sometimes word his respnses to such crap, I don't blame BILL for it at all.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

euhm....
Bruce? who...?

[nkcd]

euhm....
Bruce? who...?

Bruce = dacooltech = cooltechnica owner :)

[MaxxxRacer]

Craig, my edit of his post was totaly acceptable. It would be within my rights to give Bill a 3 day ban for his post, but I feel no need to go that far.

Lothar, thankyou for putting bills post up in a more civilized manner.

AND, Bruces comments were not totally out of line. I will not say why, but there was some truth to them. I will not defend Bruce in that he does bait Bill, but there was some truth to his statements.

Bill: I am in no way trying to silence you. I urge you to voice your opinion.. But please do so in a civil manner. Inflamatory statements and swearing help nothing and only cause more problems.

[nkcd]

off with the arguements guys..... :nono: .. :toast: .....so exactly how will this series perform? Better or worse than the pro? And how are they compared to the MCR lines from swifttech? This is what we (consumers) would like to know :D :D

[nikhsub1]

Man it saddens me to see you guys going at it like this...

[.sentinel]

Man it saddens me to see you guys going at it like this...
Me too. I think this thread should be closed.

[BRiT]

Can the cruft be seperated into it's own thread, somewhere away from the original 'valid' thread/messages?

[Fairydust]

Whoever started doesn't matter, if you drop to the same level you are no better. If you could fight in private and behave like professionals, I might keep an ounce of respect for you guys.

[nkcd]

off with the arguements guys..... :nono: .. :toast: .....so exactly how will this series perform? Better or worse than the pro? And how are they compared to the MCR lines from swifttech? This is what we (consumers) would like to know :D :D


so sadden. So what's to the answer???

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

Actually, you're both out of line. You're both acting more immature than ten year olds. Grow up. This thread should be locked and dragged off to some dark, musty corner to die.

[MaxxxRacer]

All is fixed now.

[moonlightcheese]

so most of us are in agreement that the X-Flows will offer little to no benefit over the BIPs... correct?

[MaxxxRacer]

Pretty much.

Some public test data would be nice, but it can be presumed based on alot of factors that the performance will not be substantially different.

[nkcd]

Pretty much.

Some public test data would be nice, but it can be presumed based on alot of factors that the performance will not be substantially different.


ic, so the x-flow is that that much of different than the pro. However, how do you think it'll compete against the Swifttech MCRs??

[n00b 0f l337]

Bah common people. I posted this to tell everyone that there now available. Now its turned into debate and everything. the debate of single vs dual pass was fine but this is just thread crapping.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

this thread has been a giant poo since like page 2

[MaxxxRacer]

the thread crapping is over and done with. any further comments on it will be removed.