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Serra
09-20-2005, 11:22 AM
(Jan. 06, 2007): Power Guide Revision 1.2.2 [slight sentence modifications]

This post is about the stuff that runs your computer and some of the tools you can use to protect your investment. Though I will be talking from a North American perspective in this guide, the same basic rules apply worldwide. A good knowledge of power systems will help you not only protect the considerable time and monetary investments you have in your computer, they will help you create more stable voltages to enjoy overclocking with. For those of you who also know your stuff, please don't post things about how I oversimplified a few things... it's just a basic guide.

This post is divided into a few sections:
- Chapter 1: Electricity Basics (covering AC/DC function, what line noise is, and how it affects you)
- Chapter 2: Protection Devices (covering the differences between various devices)
- Chapter 3: How Much Difference Does It Really Make? (a quick and rough look at how some general products can make a difference)
- Chapter 4: What Products/Brands "The Power And You" Sticky Guy Recommends (Coming Soon!)


Chapter 1: The Basics

Let's start simple. The electric current that runs your household appliances and tools is called AC or Alternating Current power. Your computer and other electronic devices however, run on DC or Direct Current power. The difference is that AC power reverses the direction of flow constantly, ideally averaging 60 cycles / second here in North America, whereas DC power flows in only one direction. With me so far? To convert from AC to DC power your computer requires its power supply. Without going into the gory details, just know that it converts your power directly as it receives it, which is why surges in your power line will often result in a dead computer (especially an already overclocked one).

Now to go a little deeper... In North America we are on the 120 volts system, which means that voltage supplied to our electronic devices at wall outlets should be a perky 120 volts. Unfortunately for us, this is not very often the case for more than a few milliseconds. Believe it or not, the actual codified tolerance range is 105-130 volts... meaning you could be down 15 volts (over 10% of your ideal) or over by 10 and your power company won't care in the least. Now just try to imagine whether or not you would mind your 3.3V rail registering at 2.9V instead, or your 12V operating at 10.5V. You wouldn't like that much, would you? These fluctuations occur for a variety of reasons, but the most easily grasped concept is that everyone on your power grid who turns on an electrical device draws some little bit away from the main line, which give very slight drops in electrical current. These drops turn into the most common power issue: sags. To give you some context, a larger example of a sag is a brownout, which occurs when there is just too much load on the grid.

These constant miniscule sags do add up, the amount depending on your location, time of day, and current weather conditions. These small sags, in addition to the small surges which also frequently occur, are collectively called 'noise' . This 'noise' is further increased by things such as attenuation of the electrical line as it goes to your home, and by other devices in your own house.

Obviously, this noise in your AC line translates directly into noise on your DC computer line. The amount of translation can vary by the quality of your power supply, but even the best power supplies are no match for even mid-grade solutions when it comes to getting rid of this for one very important reason: feedback . Feedback is noise generated by your electronic devices themselves that returns to your power supplies and home lines, then is regurgitated back to your devices themselves. You can think of it as localized line noise.

Now that you've gone through all that, I think you are ready for us to go over some of the devices you can use to combat these problems.


Chapter 2: Protection Devices

Surge Protectors :nono:
Probably the most misunderstood of all the devices listed, a surge protector is basically what its name implies. A funny and little known fact about surge proctors is that after an average lifespan of 1.5 years, they die. But please, before you post a reply about your power bar having lasted 10 years, read on. Most power bars are purchased for $10 or less at a Wal-Mart or equal quality store. These power bars however have a dark and dangerous secret: they trip out and DO NOT TELL YOU. A slightly better quality one comes with an LED indicator usually under the on/off switch, which will alert you when it has been tripped. It often does so by blinking repeatedly. It will still function as a multiple-outlet bar, but will not continue to provide any protection. Finally, the highest quality surge protectors will feature a 'reset' button which allows them to continue to provide functionality after a surge.
Cost: $5-$30

Line Conditioners
A clear step up from the surge protector is the line conditioner. They generally have all the same features as surge protectors, but with one important enhancement: they have at _least_ one filter on them to eliminate line noise. Doing this ensures you get a much smoother electric flow and lets your power supply do its job with less stress and significantly enhanced reliability. A good line conditioner for general enthusiast computing use would be in the range of $100, though those of you with advanced cooling or bleeding-edge systems may consider upgrading to something up to $200. In my honest opinion, anything much over that is a waste in most home computer applications.

Also worth noting: while line conditioners are great things to have, please don't go overboard. Yes, your computer is amazing with it's many Gigabootz of power... but you don't need to find a line conditioner with a specialized high-current subwoofer outlet for it. High-quality devices with such specialized outputs have special filtering circuitry specifically designed for their respective purposes, and you will find that plugging into such an outlet will not offer a device that does not fit into that niche does not offer any added benefit (it would likely offer less quality than plugging into an outlet made for digital devices).
Cost: $100 - $1800 [depending on joule rating, quality, and features]

Power Regulators
An AC power regulator is basically a large, often overpriced device designed to supply you with a constant voltage amount. While they protect well against surges and even prolonged sags, it should be noted that one must still use a line conditioner in addition, because they do nothing for noise (generally). Though it sounds like a spiffy add-on to your system, I have a very hard time justifying the cost given the almost negligible benefit in contrast to other options at similar price points.
Cost: $300 - $2200 ($1000+ suggested)

UPS - Uninterruptable Power Supplies
Although I could easily devote an entire post to UPS's, we'll just cover the basics here. Basically, these are surge protectors with built-in batteries in case of blackouts. In days gone by these batteries would often not come on fast enough for a computer, but now that switching is so fast that your computer is unaware it ever took place. There are many things to look for in a UPS, the two most important of which are:
1. It's power rating. No use in having a UPS that won't supply enough power to let you do a clean shutdown.
2. Intelligence. UPS's are coming with an increasing amount of 'intelligence'. Now a person can pick up even a relatively cheap model and connect it via USB to their computer. This will allow them to monitor the condition of the battery, current line conditions, and will also let the UPS shut down your computer for you in the event you are away and something happens.

One important thing to remember about a UPS is that the batteries do have to be replaced. How often is dependant on the type of battery and the amount of use it's had (more is actually better, to a point). These replacements are not generally that expensive, usually around the price of a replacement car battery (which is actually what a lot of these use).
Finally though, I would like to make one final point about UPS’s; unless you purchase an 'online' UPS (one that is constantly on and constantly recharging itself) or one which specifically states otherwise, these do NOTHING for line noise at all… and the quality of noise filtering on most lower- to mid-priced models is questionable (if a good line filter costs $100 minimum alone, how is that plus an intelligently managed battery selling for under $80?).
Cost: $30 - $100 000+ (don't cheap out though - expect to pay at least $100)


Chapter 3: How much difference does it really make?

In terms of hurting your computer, you definitely need a surge protector as a minimum. Above that, I leave it to your discretion, but the more you live on the edge the more I suggest in investing. Electrical damage is the #2 reason for computer failure (after hard drives), and can be very hard to trace. As a point of fact, feedback line noise is actually the #1 current reason that plasma televisions die so early... and beating out heat can be a hard thing on something that runs that toasty. Just proof positive that line noise = bad for sensitive electronics.

After going through all that I bet at least some of you are wondering how much getting a line conditioner really helps with line noise, so I thought I would post a few test results. For this test, I compared 3 of my favorite entry-level power line devices: a basic Monster brand power bar, a Monster brand stage-1 line filter, and a Monster brand stage-2 filter. To keep it fair none of these devices have anything else plugged in to them, unless specified. My tool to do this was actually supplied by the Monster cable company, and is basically just a sensitivity device that outputs line noise as decibels on an LCD screen and also gives you an audible representation as well. With dB in this case, lower is better.

Household Appliance Jack:
-> Used to calibrate the line noise display to ~100dB (+/- 8dB), just to get a convenient reference number.*

Monster Power Bar:
- Displays ~100dB (+/- 8dB), the same as any house outlet.*

Monster Stage-1 Line Conditioner:
- Displays a relative line noise of ~14dB (+/- 2dB)

Monster Stage-2 Line Conditioner:
- Displays a relative line noise of ~.1dB (+/- .1dB)

*Note: In the event that these numbers did not help convince someone, I would like to make one last addendum to this guide. That is that with the household jack and the non-filtered power bar, the line noise was so prevalent that I could actually hear a local radio station coming in over the audible output, through the static. It was undetectable on either filtered outlet.

I hope you have found this enlightening. If you have any questions, please post them here and I (or someone else) will be happy to try to answer them for you.

~ Serra

IYP
09-20-2005, 05:29 PM
very nice thanks for the info :thumbsup:

[XC] leviathan18
09-20-2005, 06:10 PM
monster the same that makes the monster cables???? i luv their stuff all the wiring of my car is monster cable (like 300$ in RCA)

Serra
09-20-2005, 09:09 PM
monster the same that makes the monster cables???? i luv their stuff all the wiring of my car is monster cable (like 300$ in RCA)

Yes, that same company. They are expensive, but the quality is definitely there. Belkin and APC make some high quality products too (in fact they make some great UPS'), I just wish I had a chance to give some of their devices a test so we could compare products.

JeffTracy
03-07-2006, 01:14 PM
Even a small UPS, something that can be bought for $50, will go a long way to stabilising the mains for your computer. Even if it only holds enough power to run your machine for five minutes once the mains goes, it will usually do line conditioning and voltage stabilising for you as well. Especially handy if you live in an area (or building) with old and dodgy mains wiring or supplies.


FAB

Serra
03-08-2006, 01:14 PM
Even a small UPS, something that can be bought for $50, will go a long way to stabilising the mains for your computer. Even if it only holds enough power to run your machine for five minutes once the mains goes, it will usually do line conditioning and voltage stabilising for you as well. Especially handy if you live in an area (or building) with old and dodgy mains wiring or supplies.

FAB

When I made this guide I had considered the fact that most consumer-grade UPSs being made today by good brand names (ie. Belkin, APC, Monster) do line filtering, but in my experience many el-cheapo brands do not.. being little more than car batteries in a box with a small relay on them that switch to battery when the power goes out. I made sure to specify that most don't so that people would always check first, because we all know what assuming does.

For most home uses though, I will agree... even a cheap UPS with line filtering would be far and away better than nothing at all. Line filtering is definitely an area where the laws of diminishing returns apply.

Serra

@_dud
04-17-2006, 03:34 PM
Nice stuff. Thanx :)

crackhead2k
04-19-2006, 10:21 AM
I think thats what I need for ym higher OC..... Thanks for the guide!

Hymay
09-09-2006, 10:11 PM
Just saw a $40 strip at costco, was specced to filter out 150KHz to 100Mhz up to 85 db. Is that any good as a line filter? Picked it up, but not sure if I should open it or take it back.

Istasi
10-08-2006, 05:08 PM
Could anyone recomment a good line conditioner around $100?

Serra
10-08-2006, 07:10 PM
Around $100, I think the best one out there in terms of quality ATM is the Monster HTS 800. Up here in Canada they go for about ~$130, so maybe a tad over $100 in USD.

Good warranty (lifetime + 150k in attached items), 24k gold plated contacts (no corrosion), long cord (8ft instead of normal 6), high-pressure contacts... solid powerbar.

Just make sure you get the HTS800, *not* the AV800.

Istasi
10-09-2006, 03:47 PM
Around $100, I think the best one out there in terms of quality ATM is the Monster HTS 800. Up here in Canada they go for about ~$130, so maybe a tad over $100 in USD.

Good warranty (lifetime + 150k in attached items), 24k gold plated contacts (no corrosion), long cord (8ft instead of normal 6), high-pressure contacts... solid powerbar.

Just make sure you get the HTS800, *not* the AV800.

Wow, turns out that's the unit that I'm using for my TV/Xbox/Etc. I see that it has labeled outlets, would there be any consequences in plugging in a computer to one of the labeled outlets? Consequences with any other device (monitor, printer, etc.)?

EDIT: I also noticed that the HTS1000 MKII is available for ~$100, would it be worth it to grab this over the HTS800? http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?summary=summary&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=custRatings&custRatings=custRatings&features=features&accessories=accessories&productId=2255390&support=support&tab=summary

perkam
10-09-2006, 04:25 PM
Wow, turns out that's the unit that I'm using for my TV/Xbox/Etc. I see that it has labeled outlets, would there be any consequences in plugging in a computer to one of the labeled outlets? Consequences with any other device (monitor, printer, etc.)?

EDIT: I also noticed that the HTS1000 MKII is available for ~$100, would it be worth it to grab this over the HTS800? http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?summary=summary&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=custRatings&custRatings=custRatings&features=features&accessories=accessories&productId=2255390&support=support&tab=summaryAs long as its under $100, its a good reasonable investment.

Perkam

Serra
10-10-2006, 11:40 AM
Wow, turns out that's the unit that I'm using for my TV/Xbox/Etc. I see that it has labeled outlets, would there be any consequences in plugging in a computer to one of the labeled outlets? Consequences with any other device (monitor, printer, etc.)?

EDIT: I also noticed that the HTS1000 MKII is available for ~$100, would it be worth it to grab this over the HTS800? http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?summary=summary&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=custRatings&custRatings=custRatings&features=features&accessories=accessories&productId=2255390&support=support&tab=summary

The nice difference between the HTS1000 and HTS800 is that the 1000-series offers two-stage line filtering as opposed to just the 1-stage offered by the 800. It is definitely noticable difference in SIMULATED testing, but whether it provides any real-world benefits over the 1-stage filtinger is a little more questionable.

As far as plugging into labelled outlets goes (concerning Monster products), the HTS800 is filtered the same way on all outlets, and they're only labelled for convenience. As a result, it does not matter what you plug into what. Once you start going into their higher-order filtering though they do filter analogue and digital independantly after a single common filter. In the event you get a 2+ stage filtering device, try to plug your computer equipment into only the digital line outlets. Not that the power won't equally work from the analogue lines, it just relates to what frequencies are filtered out.

And certainly, for any home PC, anything beyond 2 stage is just ridiculous overkill.

Istasi
10-10-2006, 01:51 PM
The nice difference between the HTS1000 and HTS800 is that the 1000-series offers two-stage line filtering as opposed to just the 1-stage offered by the 800. It is definitely noticable difference in SIMULATED testing, but whether it provides any real-world benefits over the 1-stage filtinger is a little more questionable.

As far as plugging into labelled outlets goes (concerning Monster products), the HTS800 is filtered the same way on all outlets, and they're only labelled for convenience. As a result, it does not matter what you plug into what. Once you start going into their higher-order filtering though they do filter analogue and digital independantly after a single common filter. In the event you get a 2+ stage filtering device, try to plug your computer equipment into only the digital line outlets. Not that the power won't equally work from the analogue lines, it just relates to what frequencies are filtered out.

And certainly, for any home PC, anything beyond 2 stage is just ridiculous overkill.

Thanks for the info, I guess I'll pick up another HTS800 :)

Xion X2
10-20-2006, 11:29 AM
Good topic. I picked up the HTS1000 for 100$ on Amazon. :cool:

tjelaw
11-06-2006, 02:44 AM
Is there a real diffirence between the Monster HTS800 and the HT800? the monster website isnt really helping out hehe :P

HTS800: http://www.monstercable.com/europe/english/productPage.asp?nv=HomeEnt&pin=2073
HT800: http://www.monstercable.com/europe/english/productPage.asp?nv=HomeEnt&pin=2301

The HTS costs about 20euros more, here in Holland they're so expensive :( 120 euros and 200 for the HTS1000 :(.

My old PSU just died, I need my PC up ASAP. But I have a limited budget. Im sure my home has pretty solid wiring. Should I go for an Silverstone ZF / Seasonic M-12 without any voltage regulator/line conditioner. Or Take an Antec TruePower/Tagan together with a Monster HT(S)800 ?

Serra
11-07-2006, 10:38 AM
The HTS has a set of phone connectors as well as the coax + power.

Edit: Having replied to your question before you edited it (it may be too late now to be helpful) but I would be surprised if the Seasonic didn't have a line conditioning function itself and would probably go with the Seasonic now and then get a seperate line conditioning unit to hook up to it later.

gelatinousfury
11-07-2006, 02:59 PM
Very nice thread. I already have one HTS1000 for my A/V equipment but ironically I never thought about having one for my computer setup. I definitely think I'll pick one up for my PC setup and ditch the super-cheap generic surge protector.

Call me Ugly
01-02-2007, 04:59 PM
Great thread, thanks for taking the time to write it. I just ordered a HTS 1000 MKII, and I have a couple questions if you please..

1. The product manual pdf says 4 outlets are Switched (audio) and 4 outlets are Unswitched (video). Where am I going with my PC, boss?

2. It also says max current rating is 15A/1800W. Should I worry about that 15A rating or is a units full load capacity somehow different from current rating?


Those seem general questions of any line conditioner, so I was hoping someone would be able to answer even if they didn't own this particular unit. I just couldn't seem to find clear answers online.

Thanks in advance/anyway,
Ugly


EDIT:Product page (refferenced PDF DL on page)
http://www.monstercable.com/productPage.asp?pin=1901

Omastar
01-02-2007, 05:30 PM
Do you think having a grounded outlet over a regular outlet is beneficial, when coupled with a UPS? I have an APS UPS 450 watt and I replaced the horrible old outlet that's been in this house for like 50 years with a new grounded one (with the black ground and red reset buttons). Does this sound like enough protection?

Serra
01-06-2007, 11:06 AM
Sorry about the slow replies, it's been a busy week. Anyway...



...

1. The product manual pdf says 4 outlets are Switched (audio) and 4 outlets are Unswitched (video). Where am I going with my PC, boss?

2. It also says max current rating is 15A/1800W. Should I worry about that 15A rating or is a units full load capacity somehow different from current rating?

...


#1:
Although you could plug your computer into either switched or unswitched ports on that device and have it work, the unswitched would be your best option. The difference between the two is the type of filtering that they were designed for (and considering the draw I wouldn't really worry about it).

#2:
Don't worry too much about that rating. Lets say that, for example, your computer uses a perfect 1kW power supply and you have the thing fully loaded and are therefore drawing 1kW of power from the wall. Well, the formula for watts is:
Voltage * Current = Watts
So given you live in North America, your outlet should provide 110-120v (again, ideally - we'll use 110 in our numbers though) and that your wattage is 1000w, the formula becomes:
110v * Current = 1000va

Solving for current, you're using approximately 8.33 amps, well below the 15A rating (and at 1kW, below the 1.8kW rating no less).

Edit: Thought I'd mention, even if your incoming voltage was at a shocking 80v (a shutdown point for a number of devices), you're still using only 12.5 amps. Just thought I'd put it into perspective for you.




Do you think having a grounded outlet over a regular outlet is beneficial, when coupled with a UPS? I have an APS UPS 450 watt and I replaced the horrible old outlet that's been in this house for like 50 years with a new grounded one (with the black ground and red reset buttons). Does this sound like enough protection?


I will always recommend using a grounded outlet over using a regular outlet. Ignoring the use digital electronics make of it, it is a security feature for both you and your devices. If your computer / power supply were to experience an electric short, for example, and a live connection touched your ungrounded chassis, your chassis would become a conductor for the electricity and you could find you get a sharp zap from it. However, had your case been grounded, the current would flow through the ground wire instead. You can connect to the UPS instead, but as the UPS itself does not connect to a ground, it's an unterminated (read: unused) circuit that provides no grounding whatsoever.

NickS
01-06-2007, 11:50 AM
I just bought this. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16842121008

It's really nice so far, and has a high joule rating. I really like Belkins surge protectors. This is the second one we've used in the home, and they've both been good.

Call me Ugly
01-10-2007, 02:29 PM
Well now that it was finally delivered I know these guys are for real..

MP HTS 1000 MKII, Open Box (display model, no accessories), $49.99+ shipping..
http://www.bigboydistribution.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=10689

Disclaimer: "THIS ITEM IS A FLOOR MODEL AND WAS USED FOR 3 MONTHS FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY! STILL CARRIES MONSTERS REPLACEMENT WARRANTY. MONSTER WILL NOT WARRANTY DEVICES PLUGGED INTO PRODUCTS THAT HAVE BEEN USED FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES."


I take "MONSTER WILL NOT WARRANTY DEVICES PLUGGED INTO PRODUCTS THAT HAVE BEEN USED FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES." to mean that attached equipment will not have the $250,000 warranty. Its usage shows, it is scuffed up, but I did not buy it for looks. Appears to work fine and "STILL CARRIES MONSTERS REPLACEMENT WARRANTY." if it didn't.

Whatever, its not perfect but if anyone is a cheapass like me this is a great deal. Monster 2 stage line conditioner for $49.99.

Ugly

apexracing
01-10-2007, 02:56 PM
Picked up an HTS200-MKII for cheap, about $112 shipped from onlinegadgetstore.com, their service is horrible. But I do like the thing so far, I can tell a difference in my sound and the whole thing feels industrial.

ramenchef
02-17-2007, 10:12 PM
One of the powersquid models says it has a Purestream™ EMI/RFI Power Filter. Is that good enough of a line conditioner?

Serra
02-26-2007, 12:38 PM
I try to keep up with any replies that come to this thread and respond helpfully, but I missed this last one by quite a bit.

Worse, I've never heard of that company so I can't help with that, sorry m8.

2000army
04-06-2007, 01:03 AM
Good thread...informative

TeRm
04-09-2007, 12:37 AM
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=MCMPHT800

36$ shipped stage 1 :). They have lots of other great deals too.

BigRollTide1
04-23-2007, 05:27 AM
If you have a UPS and a line conditioner, do you plug the UPS into the line conditioner or vice-versa.

I remember reading somewhere that you shouldn't plug a UPS into a surge protector so I was wondering if this was similar.

Also, since you are really worried about line noise to computer and the UPS might create line noise, would it be better just to plug the conditioner into it anyway.

kniwor
04-23-2007, 05:45 AM
good post thanks, helpful

Serra
04-23-2007, 12:24 PM
If you have a UPS and a line conditioner, do you plug the UPS into the line conditioner or vice-versa.

I remember reading somewhere that you shouldn't plug a UPS into a surge protector so I was wondering if this was similar.

Also, since you are really worried about line noise to computer and the UPS might create line noise, would it be better just to plug the conditioner into it anyway.

Most UPS's nowadays are including line filtering as a feature, but should you obtain a unit that is neither:
- 'Online' (supplying power straight from battery and recharging, the more common type nowadays) nor
- Line filtering

Then it should look like:
Wall -> UPS -> Line Filter -> PC

[XC] Angstrom
06-03-2007, 09:04 AM
Just got the Monster Power HTS1000 MKII
Its running my computer, monitor, and 700W speakers. The voltage lines in my computer are as stable as ever. The unit doesn't get warm either.

Thumbs up for the recommendation!

Soulburner
08-05-2007, 07:48 PM
I'm looking for a UPS. Have these recommendations changed lately?

Also to help out, here are some helpful links I dug up:

Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) FAQ (http://www.jetcafe.org/npc/doc/ups-faq.html)

PCGuide - Uninterruptible Power Supplies (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/index.htm)

jinsean
08-08-2007, 05:51 PM
can i hook up a UPS to the monster stage1 line conditioner and still get the benefit of the line conditioner + UPS?

or does the appliance need to be plugged directly into the line conditioner to get the benefits?

Thanks.

Serra
08-09-2007, 09:58 AM
I'm looking for a UPS. Have these recommendations changed lately?

Also to help out, here are some helpful links I dug up:

Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) FAQ (http://www.jetcafe.org/npc/doc/ups-faq.html)

PCGuide - Uninterruptible Power Supplies (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/index.htm)

Sorry about the late response, missed this one by a bit. My UPS recommendations haven't really changed, if anything UPS standards have just continued to climb on the part of the manufacturers.



can i hook up a UPS to the monster stage1 line conditioner and still get the benefit of the line conditioner + UPS?

or does the appliance need to be plugged directly into the line conditioner to get the benefits?

Thanks.

Strictly speaking Monster suggests it working like:
Wall -> UPS -> Monster

The reason behind this is that the UPS device may generate line noise itself, so this is the suggested way to ensure you're set. It could very well be that the UPS doesn't create any line noise itself, but it pays to be careful.

Soulburner
09-16-2007, 11:44 AM
I have the following system:

NZXT Zero Case w/8x120mm fans if you include the HSF
Corsair 620HX PSU
Abit IP35 Pro
Intel E6850 @ 3.6Ghz
2x1Gb Ballistix @ DDR2-1000
2 HDD's, 1 DVD
8800GTS (and will be GTX)
Auzentech Prelude X-Fi
BenQ FP241 24" LCD
Keyboard + Mouse
Modem + Router
4.1/5.1 THX speakers

How can we determine how big of a unit we need, in terms of watt capacity?

I'd like to have a lot of outlets too, around 8 if possible.

Soulburner
09-21-2007, 04:07 PM
This thread is slow :p:

With the above requirements in mind, these two models have my attention.

For my rig:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101066

For my family's rig:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101224

They both seem like really nice units, both have AVR, 8 outlets and positive reviews.

Plus the APC can measure my wattage which will be pretty cool to see.

YorkTown
09-28-2007, 03:09 PM
I'm a little confused.

I was looking into buying a good UPS like this APC Smart-UPS / 8 Outlet / 1500VA / 980Watt / UPS (http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1237271&CatId=234)

But after reading stuff on this thread and other pages, It seems i would still need to buy a line conditioner for another $100.

Isnt there a UPS that conditions the line without need of a seperate conditioner/filter? even the $1,000 UPS dont seem to condition lines.

am i basically stuck with buying a 350 dollars UPS plus spending another 100 bux on a monster bar? thats starting to look like what i need to do :-/

Soulburner
09-28-2007, 06:54 PM
Do you really need a $350 UPS?

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/APC-1300VA-Battery-Back-up-System-BX1300LCD/sem/rpsm/oid/162959/catOid/-13021/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

YorkTown
10-01-2007, 04:10 PM
I'd rather not spend anything on a UPS. but I need to protect my invetment and have it run at a top notch level.

that UPS you linked is a nice one. i was looking to buy the BR1300 which is basically the same in terms of price and features. the problem is that the UPS doesnt have a pure sinewave.

My PSU is an enermax galaxy 850, the manual states it's not compatible with stepped sinewave which is basically the same as simulated sinewave. I need and would like a pure sinewave.

My peeve is that a 350 UPS doesnt seem to condition the line :-/

edit: if i get a monster HTS800 line conditioner and plug it into my UPS and have the computer plugged into the Monster, would i lose the pure sinewave?

Soulburner
10-01-2007, 05:12 PM
Not famaliar with the terms here...pure sinewave?

I was also concerned with line conditioning, and I can't find any UPS units that offer it. They almost all have AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulation) though.

YorkTown
10-01-2007, 09:43 PM
AVR is when the UPS bumps up power when its low(sag) and limits power when there is a spike(swell). pretty much all UPS's do this, your right. It's a basic feautre.


A sinewave is a graphical reresentation of what the power flow looks like. an oscilloscope is used to make the measurment and has the sinewave display.

the mid point of the wave is 120 volts(or whatever desired amount is), as The AC current from the wall dips down to 110 volts and surges up to 130 volts the sinewave gives you a funky patern to reresent this flow.

A UPS takes AC power, converts it to DC, does the AVR thing then spits out the power to your computer as AC again. A pure sinewave is the best form of power flow. a Cheap UPS has a simulated or stepped sinwave.

sorry for the base explanation. im learning this as i go along here too :-)
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h113/joesmith1776/square_modified_sinewave.jpg

Soulburner
10-06-2007, 11:36 PM
Definition of Line Conditioner:

Device used to protect the computer from variations in the power supply, such as spikes and brownouts. It is connected to the wall outlet, and the computer is then plugged into it.

Sounds a lot like AVR to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_conditioner

EDIT: After doing a lot of looking around and reading I am almost positive a power supply with AVR will do the same thing as a line conditioner, but with the added features of the UPS. I am picking up the unit I posted above tomorrow.

http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BX1300LCD

Soulburner
10-14-2007, 09:58 AM
Well I can say that the BX/RS 1300LCD UPS from APC are top notch. The screen really helps give you access to the information you need to know such as battery charge, remaining run time, total load in % and watts and more.

I got it all set up and opened up a game, Titan Quest. This one I found to pull more total watts than even Bioshock. I pulled the plug and seamlessly the PSU switched over to battery with a remaining run time of 18 minutes. The computer never even noticed.

It totally isolates your equipment from the outside world's power problems and gives you a lot of peace of mind for the money and I would highly recommend it.

E6550 @ 3.2
2GB DDR2
IP35
SB Audigy 2
X1950Pro
Corsair 520HX
1 HDD, 1 DVD
Acer 20" wide LCD (VA panel, uses more power than TN)
Modem, Router
5x120mm fans including the PSU

Total power draw during Titan Quest = 220w tops

YorkTown
10-15-2007, 12:39 AM
AVR is like a line conditioner and a line conditioner is like a UPS.

A line conditioner has AVR capability but it does a superior job at dealing with EMI (electromagnetic interference) and RFI (radio frequency interference). No battery backup for the line conditioner though.

A UPS has AVR and does a so-so job with EMI and RFI. As far as I'm concerned the UPS is good enough for the task.

My particular enermax galaxy 850 is not compatable with stepped or simulated sinewave. in other words a fancy PSU wants shmancy sinewave power.

I have quit a few "white papers" in PDF and a couple articles about buying a UPS. How can i upload PDF files here?

edit: you will have to dig for the good papers. 15, 17 and 18 are good ones.
http://apc.com/prod_docs/results.cfm?DocType=White%20Paper&Query_Type=10


Definition of Line Conditioner:


Sounds a lot like AVR to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_conditioner

EDIT: After doing a lot of looking around and reading I am almost positive a power supply with AVR will do the same thing as a line conditioner, but with the added features of the UPS. I am picking up the unit I posted above tomorrow.

http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BX1300LCD

MotF Bane
02-09-2008, 11:22 PM
Monster Cable MP HTS1000 Ref. PowerCenter HTS1000

Is that the right unit? Also, what's the maximum load...? I know voltage x amperage = wattage, but that's about it.

Serra
02-29-2008, 08:45 AM
Yeah, that's one of the units I was able to review. A decent unit for the cost if you can avoid paying MSRP (which isn't really too hard to do). If you really think about it, you'll probably realize that you do know what your household voltage spec is, and should be able to work out the amperage it can pass.

vassalle
05-22-2008, 07:50 PM
Hi, I have a noobish question here.. my new place is having lots of power outages lately. I'm pretty sure my pc don't really appreciate that. Hence, i'm planning to buy an UPS for my rig.

Using the extremepowersupply calculator, my rig generates about 240w at 90% load and 153w at 60% load. Most of the time, if the rig is unattended, it usually stays idle @ less than 10% load (mostly getting some stuff from the newsgroup). My PSU is Silverstone ST56F

So, would it be sufficient for me to get the APC 650VA http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techsp...AS&tab=Software for about RM 350 ~ USD 110? Or would it be an overkill, whereby I can consider cheaper brands such as koss etc.? Thanks in advance!

drak3
03-04-2009, 09:42 AM
This is an old thread, but it was a good read and makes perfect sense to ensure that power going IN the PSU is of quality if the PSU is going to work easy and produce quality power.

I have been looking at APC as they make "good" stuff for a "good" price.

Specifically, 750VA-APC-Smart-UPS-750i-USB-and-Serial-Port-230v-Including-PowerCute-software

which has in the description "sine wave" but I am not sure what sort of line conditioning/filtering this does.

Is this an "all rounder" or I need to buy the monster bar and this also to be fully filtered/protected.

Thanks

davidhammock200
03-04-2009, 12:21 PM
This is an old thread, but it was a good read and makes perfect sense to ensure that power going IN the PSU is of quality if the PSU is going to work easy and produce quality power.

I have been looking at APC as they make "good" stuff for a "good" price.

Specifically, 750VA-APC-Smart-UPS-750i-USB-and-Serial-Port-230v-Including-PowerCute-software

which has in the description "sine wave" but I am not sure what sort of line conditioning/filtering this does.

Is this an "all rounder" or I need to buy the monster bar and this also to be fully filtered/protected.

ThanksThe Smart BasckUps are fully line interactive with Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) & output a "True Sine Wave" when running on batteries.

They are excellent UPS's & complete in themselves!

Do not add anything, as it will "degrade" performance.

Always Build with the Best,
Dave:up:

153stars
04-23-2009, 07:57 PM
Check Tripp-lite for line conditioners & their greenline line
conditioning green UPS $50 line conditioners starting @ $80
Every thing Monster is way overpriced

davidhammock200
04-24-2009, 05:54 AM
Every thing Monster is way overpricedEvery thing Monster is evil & supports corporate terrorism!:caution:
Monster Cable Strong-Arms (http://monstercable1.com/):soap:

OC Nub
05-27-2009, 04:44 PM
I have the Monster Power Reference Power Center HTS 3500. Never thought about using it for my PC. I don't believe it has a PC hookup. It has jacks for AV receivers, AMPs etc. Which jack would be the best to use to plug my PC into?
Thanks
EDIT: If I had read the thread
I could have found the answer myself, sorry. I used the one labeled Spare, digital.

topdog5050
08-28-2009, 02:45 PM
nice share buddy.

aztec
06-12-2010, 08:13 AM
I'd rather not spend anything on a UPS. but I need to protect my invetment and have it run at a top notch level.

that UPS you linked is a nice one. i was looking to buy the BR1300 which is basically the same in terms of price and features. the problem is that the UPS doesnt have a pure sinewave.

My PSU is an enermax galaxy 850, the manual states it's not compatible with stepped sinewave which is basically the same as simulated sinewave. I need and would like a pure sinewave.

My peeve is that a 350 UPS doesnt seem to condition the line :-/



I know this is an old thread, but just wanted to say you should check out the TrippLite SmartOnline series, like the one I have:

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=744&txtModelID=3180

Pure sine output, I needed this type to run an Enermax Infiniti PSU. Has AC-to-DC-back-to-nice, clean-AC conversion, so you get a good steady 60Hz/120v power source even if the incoming wall AC fluctuates. It's also been a great battery backup, has kicked in several times during power failures in the 3 years I've had it and never failed me.

Kinda pricey though...at the time, I paid a little under $400. with ship. but it has saved my bacon many times with several different rigs, and with pure sine your downstream components may last longer, compared to the "sour power" of simulated sine.

Only complaint I had was the OEM 8cm fan was a Delta howler, so I installed a quieter Noctua 8cm and all is well.

Overall, I'd say a worthwhile investment. :yepp:

Johnny87au
06-22-2010, 10:44 PM
thanks mate, Got myself a 8 socket surge board and is working perfect! :)

The_Beast
06-22-2010, 10:59 PM
It may be a dumb question but should a $100-$150 UPS provide all the protection I need (surge, noise...whatever else)?