complete D.I.Y phase cooling thread

[cgk123]

SORRY to disappoint you but this isnt what the title says , YET.!!

hi everyone, i am a complete noob here and to phase change cooling, but it is very interesting and think it would be very helpfull to the masses for someone to come up with a complete start to finish thread detailing how to make your own on die or water chiller cooler out of old fridges and a/c units.

my main reasons for posting this is i cant afford a 1000 dollar cdn for a prometeia kit , i like o/c ing and i have an wall a/c unit i could dismatle for this task.

SO WHO IS THE RESIDENT EXPERT WHO COULD DO THIS AND WILL HE DO IT?

[Dissolved]

well This has been done allready. No one has the time to make a step by step guide for n00bs. you gitta do alot of reading be4 you start.

Links:
http://www.wc101.com/guides/refridgeration/page1.php
http://www.wc101.com/guides/refridgeration/page6.php

http://www.xtremesystems.org/mricee/images/myweb4/prometeia.htm
http://www.phase-change.com/index.php?action=Articles_page&cat=Guides&id=23&page=1 (one guide)
http://www.phase-change.com/index.php?action=Articles_page&cat=Articles&id=21&page=1

Those are a few start up links. Im also learning myself, and will have a system running in the next 2 months.

[TheDude]

I agree that would be great, but basicaly equivalent to writing a book the length of "WAR AND PEACE".

Bowman and aenigma come to my mind as our resident experts, but there are others as well. To get started, read Bowmans EXCELLENT article on phase change cooling basics 101.

http://www.phase-change.com/index.p...es&id=21&page=1

Also here is an excellent thread

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4124&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

I plan to take some classes soon at my local Voc Rehab school on Refrigeration to help me towards that goal.
:D

[Dissolved]

well The dude your first link is dead, but in mine i have both his articles on phase :)

IMO i dont think Phase Chage cooling is all that hard. You can either know the basics like me, OR get into it all techy like Bowman :D


I maybe able to supply people the refrigerent (depeneding on what i use, cuz some is illegal to give out).

So The Dude, if your looking to start making a phase change we could talk. Im new at this, and i wouldnt mind hearing others idea's.

[cgk123]

THANKS DISSOLVED, i think all your links will come close to enuff info to start with anyway.

i mite decide after reading all this that its better for me to just buy a prometeia but it would be more bragging rights if i could learn to build one.
but i will only build one if it is as least 1/2 the cost or less of buying one otherwise its not worth it.

considering i already have a window ac unit theres a good chance it will be alot cheaper to build as long as tools arent too expensive

[TheDude]

Dissolved,

The 1st link is dead alright, but worked right after I posted...I always test them when posting...wonder what happened?

I would be very interested in talking with you about this when the time comes (probably in the Spring for me).

Thanks


:D

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by TheDude
Dissolved,

The 1st link is dead alright, but worked right after I posted...I always test them when posting...wonder what happened?

I would be very interested in talking with you about this when the time comes (probably in the Spring for me).

Thanks


:D


well i gotta clean out my garage so i can work on this stuff so it will be at least a month be4 i can get started.

[bowman1964]

well nice to be noticed for my articals.
if anyone wants to keep up with my current on going project it ..can be found here.
pro cooling (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4327)
Phase Change (http://www.phase-change.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18)

i am thinking about a condensation/insulation guide in january.
TheDude's Idea
with pics of motherboard under real cold temps.a extra board i will play on.i hope to show how to properly do it for super cold temps and how to remove it so you can return the board for warranty if needed for some reason.no silicone glued to board
:) :)

[Dissolved]

yummy. sound interesting.. :D

[Hardass]

Outstanding. I am looking forward to it.:toast:

[TheDude]

Bowman,

Thanks for all those great links! Should keep me busy for a while!
TECUMSEH COMPRESSORS reference link is great! Your project on the direct die/water chiller would be the perfect cooling solution...coming up with a design that will fit a full tower case seems like a tough challenge.

I am really looking forward to the condensation/insulation guide in january!:D

[bowman1964]

well you are right" dude " about it being a tough problem putting all this into a case.very dam tough.
there is alot of guys just making these coolers but they are spread out over large tables and such.basicy a benching machine.
but i wanted more.i have already done that and acheaved super low temps.but i wanted to do something unheard of in thie computing comunity.
a complete cooling machine all in a case running togther.with all vapo change cooling.now this does have a coulpe of drawbacks.
drawbacks are one very confined area to build in so very tight excating work.(if you read and see my unit you will agree)i cant get to any one piece without pulling the unit all the way down.but it is going into a pc case.
second making one compressor cool not just the cpu but the video gpu ,chipset amd memory or anything else i need.has expanablity built in by use of a chiller.
now i lose some cooling of the cpu doing this.instead of -60f to -50 like my other just cpu unit is running, this one is running (in testing still)is running down to -40 unloaded and -30c loaded temperture measured at the hot side of a 80 watt peltier i use to test loads with.but i lose some with the cpu( i have tested and seen no more overclockablity from going -60 to -30c temps unless you go below -100 i dont think you can see any differance)but i will have a chiller that is going down to -24c temps.and can keep a 80 watt peltier hot side down to -13c(in testing so far)this is getting me -50 cold side temps for the video card.
drawback 3 is huge condensation problems.so there we go .
o if anyone wonders dam how will i work in the pc to upgrade or replace cards and such?already though out in the early design part of this.if you notice (i am sending a pic to look at)the unit is built in a tight alumium frame.this is designed to be slide into the bottom of my new case as a unit.and if i need to work on anything i can just slide the unit out from the case by disconnecting liquid lines to video card.chipset,and one evaperator from cpu .3 plugs disconnect and whamm the unit is setting on my work bench.

the unit is finished except aluminium case.and abit has beed tring to get me a working at7max2 for over a month now.but i should have it next week they say.and ati fininally shipping me a replacment board for my non agp 8x working one.

[TheDude]

Bowman,

Very impressive! Those temps are great!...people kill me with their fixation on having the lowest temps possible.....I mean -100c come on...give me a break! bragging rights don't mean squat, performance is what counts. To accomplish what you have done and still maintain those temperatures is awesome!
The slide out work tray is a great solution to the space problem with the case!
I can see where condensation protection will be very important with those temps, but nothing you can't handle, I'm sure.
This is really VERY exciting! Thanks for sharing this with everyone and please continue to keep us updated on your progress. Some pics and explanations of your condensation solutions would be great. I can't wait to see the finished unit.
Like I said earlier, to me this is the ultimate cooling solution...what everyone would like to have...no more having to choose between direct die and a chiller, but a blending of both using the same compressor. Outstanding job dude!:toast:

[Dissolved]

very nice. What are those 2 temp boxes?

and im also thinking on making a dual system to cool my cpu/gpu. useing one compressor would be alot easier. but id like to know how to do that?

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by Dissolved
very nice. What are those 2 temp boxes?


they are simpson temperature contol units.i can use the to keep the pc off until the chiller is at a temperature i want or cpu is cold enough.one will read down to -200 i am told.one will be mounted into the case for the evaperator temps and one for the coolant temp in the chiller. if you look on the side i all ready mounted a temp sensor for the peltier cooled gpu video coldplate.lok what it says below -50 f and the temps you see in the controllers are in f. degrees.
like i said one i am told will go down to -200f but this is as cold as i have been able to go with refridgeration so far on my older direct die block. -82f i am not sure but i think that may be considered pretty cold.

[Dissolved]

i want my cpu to get to -100C load :P

Where can i buy those units?

[aenigma]

Very impressive! Those temps are great!...people kill me with their fixation on having the lowest temps possible.....I mean -100c come on...give me a break! bragging rights don't mean squat, performance is what counts.
And you don't think -100c gives your a better overclock? :rolleyes:
The lower the cpu temp, the better the overclock.But getting a cpu to -100c would be very hard.For instance most people get about -20c loaded with a block that is -45c.
Most people think that the cpu is the same temp as the block, they also think prometeias actually give -40c cpu temps too.

[TheDude]

I have never had a temp of -100c so I can't speak from experience but I would think there would be other limiting factors by that time. Like maybe the chip? How about -200c or -2000? At what temperature do the cpu and other components start to give you more speed then they are phyiscally capable of? How cold is too cold! Bigger is always better? Go for it, I will take the setup he has right now, with those temps and be very happy with it.:D

ALso I think "most people" who "own " Prommies realize what their temps are....the average reader probably does not.

[aenigma]

Uhmm why would the chip be a limiting factor?Ever heard of ln2 cooling? ;)
I never said -20c is bad, just stating -100c is better, if you could some how get that.But it would require alot of work to get that temp.But if you did, then you would would definately get a performance gain.
By the way, -2000c is not possible :p

Alot of people buy prometeias because they think they will get -40c cpu temps.Some already know you won't get -40c, some don't.

[Mr. Baz]

I just felt like posting this for no reason.

Lowest you can get it -272*C.....-273*C is absolute zero, which is not physically possible *YET*

[bowman1964]

well i dont know about LN2 but i can tell you for a fact. that there was no differance in overclocking my xp2100 from -20c to -50c temps.i tried alot of overclocking tricks.now maybe -100c would show a differance but unless i can test it on a system and see for myself with tests and benches i will be hard to believe it.
and i would like to see someone who is benching with LN2 change up and try a vapochange system just to see.
i would be willing to bet not 2% differance in the two.
the LN2 guys are now getting beaten by oppainter and ddung who use vapo systems against the LN2 guys.
i think with vapo systems going into the mainstream market place you will see alot more people on top of the 3d benchmarks with vapo style systems:)
`as far as i am concerned oppainter and ddung are two of the best overclockers in the world and wont be long one of them will be numberone with the help of phase change systems,
and i hope they make it soon as i do for anyone else in these forums

[aenigma]

LN2 is not a good way of cooling, unless it is a 24/7 solution, like a ln2 phase change system.You need time to get the tweaking all right.Good hardware really helps this also.

I don't remember you getting your xp2100 to -50c?You have it at -20c.The block is at -40c, but your cpu isn't.
I definately notice a differance in my overclock the colder I go.The colder you go, the higher the overclock, that is a fact.It may not be 400mhz every 10c, but it is still an improvement.Even if it is 50mhz for 10c, it is still more performance.

[Dissolved]

Well i can get as much r22 as i want.

So what parts would you guys reckamend me getting?
all i need is the Main phas change setup parts, i have all the regerent tools needed.
im just not sure what kind of compressor/evap/rads to get and such.

[TheDude]

Originally posted by Mr. Baz
I just felt like posting this for no reason.

Lowest you can get it -272*C.....-273*C is absolute zero, which is not physically possible *YET*

LOL Absolutely Mr.Baz I was just being a sm***a** with my -2000c .

aenigma, I get your point with this, mine was that there is a point somewhere that temp stops being the limiting factor and something else takes over.

Dissolved, I too need to start getting gear together, it's going to be a long expensive process for me and I can only buy stuff when it's a real deal...sounds like you got inside connection.

Bowman, I agree 100% about Opp and DD....two of the very best there are and both work damn hard to get there.

:D

[aenigma]

Well you won't get to the temp limiting factor, be too hard.In fact at close to absolute zero, everything becomes a superconducter, so that would boost speed like crazy.As long as you didn't get alot of shorts(very possible as even the silicon would probably conduct)
Getting that low might cause some problems with the organic substrate of the cpu, but I am sure you could do it.

Plus getting -100c(not gonna happen), would be more for the challenge.Same thing with overclocking, its a sport :)

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by aenigma


I don't remember you getting your xp2100 to -50c?You have it at -20c.The block is at -40c, but your cpu isn't.
I definately notice a differance in my overclock the colder I go.The colder you go, the higher the overclock, that is a fact.It may not be 400mhz every 10c, but it is still an improvement.Even if it is 50mhz for 10c, it is still more performance.


well i dont tell everything i know.
i thought by my testing methods you would have figured i would try that.my block will go way down just by that post of -82f but i can change it up and down.when i was clocking my xp2100 before i sold it.i raised the temp up and down trying to find the best overclock possible.come to the conclusion that made no differance below somewhere around -20f (-28c) for my purposes.i even found i can overclock farther with a lower cpu voltage than you would think.
when i started i ran the cpu up as far as i could with water cooling.made notes and recorded max oveclock and @ what voltage.that chip would do 1950@2.10 volts now i when straight to phase change took it to 2050 with same voltage.but i was disapointed.play with that for a week or too untill oppainter told me to try loweri ng the voltage.he was running the same chip at the time.so i tried slowly lowering untill i got it unstable first.that same 2050 would go down to 1.75 or so stable .so i ended up with a 2150 stable overclock @1.85.

now i know everyone likes to be in a hurry and slam the stuff togther and see have fast we can run. but i am old enough to learned a little patience in my old self. i am not in a hurry to screw up something.but i like testing and keeping notes for furture referance.i dosent concern me if some believes me or not.but i like being honest and helping others when and if i have time.because i am just not in a hurry i am finding lots of small improvements to make and i make them.nowwhen i do get this thing together and running to perfection.i am going to order me the best solution possible to overclock. and will proberly be a xp2800 and a n-force board.then lets see how fast i can get.one thing for certain chips can come and go but chances are my cooler will stay very cold for a while.:) :)

[TheDude]

Plus getting -100c(not gonna happen), would be more for the challenge.Same thing with overclocking, its a sport

Yeah, a very expensive and addictive sport where your old friends think you are nuts and your new ones are crazier than you! LOL:D

[aenigma]

TheDude:
Yep that about covers it :D
Well the friends thinking your crazy part :)

bowman:
Your block only got to -82f with no load, undercharged.You can not run at temps like that loaded.So that means nothing.Easy to get a block that low with no load.I did assume you meant you ran the block at -20f and -50f and saw no differance, the way you said it sounded like you meant actual cpu temp.

You may not see a differance, but I sure do.

[Dissolved]

wellid be happy with -20C load. thats gonna be my goal.

i hope i can do that wih r22.

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by aenigma



bowman:
Your block only got to -82f with no load, undercharged.You can not run at temps like that loaded.So that means nothing.Easy to get a block that low with no load.. [/B]

well if it is so easy to do show me where you have done it.i would like to see that.

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by bowman1964
well if it is so easy to do show me where you have done it.i would like to see that.

lol, Hes calling you out!

[aenigma]

I have done it with my 2 stage cascade system, my 2 stage split level system, and most likely my current system.Unfortunately I can't go out and spend 100 bucks on a temp probe.I just know what the temps are judging by pressure9I have a P/T chart for R290).But like I siad, anyone can get low no-load temps, they mean nothing.If you wan't me to show you, then feel free to supply me with a probe. :p
Oh and some R22, that would be nice too, and make it alot easier for me. :D

[Dissolved]

so how good is r22?

thats what im gonna use, and i havent been told on any info about it.

Also would a bigger Compressor yeild better temps? 1/2HP or so?

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by aenigma
I have done it with my 2 stage cascade system, my 2 stage split level system, and most likely my current system.Unfortunately I can't go out and spend 100 bucks on a temp probe.I just know what the temps are judging by pressure9I have a P/T chart for R290).But like I siad, anyone can get low no-load temps, they mean nothing.If you wan't me to show you, then feel free to supply me with a probe. :p
Oh and some R22, that would be nice too, and make it alot easier for me. :D
o well do i need to say anymore.you realy dont even know what you own systems are running.
i like the quessing game.maybe i will start using that techinque, sure is alot easyer than what i have to go though now to be sure of what mine is doing .look at the time i could save......lol

:D

[aenigma]

Well not exactly "guessing", as I have a P/T chart.So I know it was very cold, unless you wan't to try to tell me the P/T chart is wrong. :p
Either way, it is still no load temps.Doesn't mean squat. :)
By the way you don't even need that probe you got, mine goes to about -50 and that is fine, as you will not see that temp when in use cooling a cpu.(cpu temps not block temps)

So yes, I do know what my system does, becuase loaded temps are the only temps that matter.You could have a block at -100f no load, and then put a load on it and temps will just keep climbing till it reaches an equalibream or takes some hardware with it.

If no load temps are so important(besides bragging rights), then why isn't your block at -82f right now? :p

[Mr. Baz]

Bowman, what is your cpu and evap block running right now as of current time?

Seeing someone with a loaded temp of -82*F on the block would be a nice thing to see.

[bowman1964]

well since i dont lie, right now my system is down waiting on my rma'ed board from abit.would like to tell you differant but i cannt.

yes -82 would be a nice thing to see but it wont happen unless you go with a cascade system.that is a another day.the block that i recorded a temp of -82f will only do -44f on a xp2100@1.85 volts.loaded temps is what we want but you shouldnt judge coollers by the temps it will take a chip too.now that sould sound strange but you must realize one chip may require 100 watts of cooling and another only 80 watts of cooling so the same cooler would show a larger differance.i can get loaded temps of -50f on a xp1700 thoughbred at stock setting so what does that mean ...nothing.i am tryiong to standize my testing so i can see a true cooling effect.right now i am using a 80 watt peltier to test with.but i am working on a heat load platform to work off of.

and aenigma by the way the chart you are using is wrong...sorta....lol
i found that out early in testing.unless you can check the pressure at the evaperator you are not getting a true reading of the low side.the charts are not designed for flooding of the evaperators as we are doing.the chart is very close all depends on how much pressure differance you have between the scrader port where you measure the low side at and the evaperator itself.
i have seen about a 5 to 10 degrees differance.just for instance my newest system has been been running close to 0 psi on the low side.that should = about -49f or so.but actually is only running -40f.so if i went of the chart i would think it was colder than it was.

aenigma i am only picking on you like you do so many other people.all in fun.you wouldnt believe how many emails i got from this thread because everyone wants me to make you mad and give you a hard time.i guess you have upset alot of peolpe over time.but i am finished and made my point.
hope you the best in you system .
lets turn down the temps and chill. lol :p
now let gets back and help some people who want or need the help.

[TheDude]

Excellent attitude Mr Bowman....I say Mr. out of respect:D

As for those emailing you wanting trouble...I am available.

[cgk123]

well so far its looking like alot of work and learning and i am rather busy . you guys sure seem to know your stuff[refridgeration] but when can we see some benchmark numbers from the supercooled cpu, gpu and nb.

3dmk 2001, pc mk 2002, sisoftsandra, etc

[aenigma]

and aenigma by the way the chart you are using is wrong...sorta....lol
i found that out early in testing.unless you can check the pressure at the evaperator you are not getting a true reading of the low side.the charts are not designed for flooding of the evaperators as we are doing.the chart is very close all depends on how much pressure differance you have between the scrader port where you measure the low side at and the evaperator itself.
i have seen about a 5 to 10 degrees differance.just for instance my newest system has been been running close to 0 psi on the low side.that should = about -49f or so.but actually is only running -40f.so if i went of the chart i would think it was colder than it was.


Well I know exactly what you are talking about, I was thinking about that too.But I have compared pressure to temperature, and it was dead on with the chart.My block has a large volume/capacity so I don't have a real pressure differance.I was just trying to tell you, no load temps don't matter.I think your system is great, but NOT because of the no load temps it can get, but the loaded temps.That is what makes it a good system.



aenigma i am only picking on you like you do so many other people

Who are these people I am picking on?Let me clarify, actually picking on, not just joking around with them.The only people I give a hard time, are the people that give ME a hard time.

I still want to know who all these people are that I have "upset over time".Guess they are just mad because I help so many people get a working phase change system?
:toast:

[TheDude]

aenigma,

It can be very difficult to understand someones sense of humor sometimes when all you have to go by is the written word. Without seeing expressions and body language, hearing the tone and inflection in their voice, etc...it is very easy to misunderstand someones intentions.I wouldn't let it bother you. I am sure if you start flaming people there will be little doubt about it...lol
I appreciate everyones input and would like very much to see this section built up to be as strong as I know it can be with the talent we have available in here.:D

[baker18]

cgk123,

check this thread out:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5296

baker18

[TheDude]

Direct on CPU and Video...very nice!:D

[Dissolved]

man a bunch of people are asking me for r22 now :-/

Sad to say its illegal to give to Non-epa(something like that) Pepole. seeing you cannot mail it in any way thats twice as hard.

Also one note, ive read about you guys releaseing the refrigerent in the air... And let me tell you thats fully illegal, and it f*s up the ozone layer. So if any of you plan on makign a system, Be smart and don't do anything stupid like that. I hate laws, But releaseing this stuff w/o useing some sort of recovery tanks, isnt right.

So i might be looking into to make a basic setup chrageing it full of r22 and selling them, AS long as there closed systems i dont think the law would mind too much.

So bowman1964, i need more advice on what i need to sue to build the setup.. only thing i know is r22, and a 1/4~1/2HP compressor.. im cluesless on what else to get.

Thanks

[aenigma]

Dissolved, I realease my refrigerant ALL the time.I also use propane :)
That whole ozone belt reduction thing is blown way out of proportion, there are many other things that do the same, but 100 times worse.It was a whole monopolistic deal with dupont, which is why R12 is banned, and newer "enviromentally friendly" refrigerant are being released.

TheDude:
I know what you mean, but I don't remember anyone I have actually gave a hard time, or really even joked with.
Well I know I have given some people that deserve a smack in the head a hard time. :D

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by aenigma
Dissolved, I realease my refrigerant ALL the time.I also use propane :)
That whole ozone belt reduction thing is blown way out of proportion, there are many other things that do the same, but 100 times worse.It was a whole monopolistic deal with dupont, which is why R12 is banned, and newer "enviromentally friendly" refrigerant are being released.

TheDude:
I know what you mean, but I don't remember anyone I have actually gave a hard time, or really even joked with.
Well I know I have given some people that deserve a smack in the head a hard time. :D


Well you still shouldn't abuse it. How did you get refrigerent anways? :rolleyes:

[aenigma]

How did I get it?Well I use propane right now, you can get it all over the place.
I would much rather just cut a line than spend the money to have someone reclaim the refrigerant, buy a recovery system(HVAC guy I know offered me one for a mere $1000), or making one myself.

[packrat]

Some people eat the fruits of the tree of knowledge and some people swallow the whole tree and need anema to properly digest the bs.

[packrat]

pt charts are guides. Reading the pressure WILL NOT tell the temperatures of the freon. That is why TXV's have sensing bulbs and equalizing lines. I know because I invented gravity, patent pending.

[aenigma]

Uh yes, nice spam. :rolleyes:
P/T charts are a guide, but they are pretty accurite.Yes they DO tell the temparature at which the "freon" boils vs. a certain pressure.I never said they were exact, you just assumed that.But they are close enough to get a good guess.

[packrat]

Good guess my ass. I put gauges on the system and it tells me pressures in the spot where I hook up gauges, not evaporator pressures or evaporator pressure drop. I also use thermometer and between the two I can tell the amount of subcooling or superheating. This I use for TXV's, for cap tube it is lot different.

[dmitriyaz]

Dissolved,
Propane is NOT an CFC nor is it an HCFC,
so its not harmful to the Ozone Layer whatsoever.
thats why you don't need a lisence to get it.
on the top of that, you can buy it in large quantities for mere dollars,
and it has low boiling temerature, making it even more suitable for our purposes.
now the cons:
1) its flammable, which is not really a problem for a non-retard,
and 2) it doesn't have as much heat capacity as most CFC/HCFC refgidgerants, so you need to "pump" more of it through the evaporator to be able to absorb the same amount of heat. which, again, is not a huge problem for us, considering we only need to move 200w, at most, and that is very little by refridgiration standards.

now, i'd like to join this civilized flamefest :D
Aenigma is a great guy, he is very kind and helpful,
and and he knows plenty (for an uneducated white trash that he is, anyway :hehe: )
but he is very intolerant to idiocy,
so intolerant, in fact, that he often becomes paranoid and sees stupidity where there actually isn't any.
so don't be too hard on him, its not his fault :p

[Dissolved]

i was talking bout r22. :rolleyes:

[aenigma]

Thanks for the help(?) dmi. :eek: :hehe:

packrat:
I will not go into this with you, you sound like an average joe tech(possibly an a/c tech), and you obviously have not done any work on the kind of systems I work with.I believe I already told you I compared evaporator temperature and pressure to the chart, and it came out exact.Argue with that. :rolleyes:


sees stupidity where there actually isn't any.

Oh making excuses for yourself are you dmi? :D :p

[packrat]

dmitriyaz I was reading somewhere about the propane and they said that is more efficient then freon and the charge is to be 1/3 or 1/2 of the freon charge. I could not find that website again but I found that would validate my statement http://www.achrnews.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,1338,11926,00.html

[packrat]

Aenigma I wont argue.Perhaps you right. I am sitting here and I cannot figure what happened in bowmans evaporator. I mean it was -82 then he puts the load on and it jumps to-44? IO guess it is one of those black cows eating green grass and giving off white milk, it's a mystery to me. I rather take your word for it I am almost positive that you are right.

[aenigma]

The reason he was getting -82f unloaded was becuase he had it undercharged, if he put a load on it in that condition look out sally!Block temps would just skyrocket.But true no load temps when it is charged to handle a load were about -60f I think.

Now if you are referring to R12(Freon 12), then yes propane has a better heat capacity.But it doesn't have a better heat capacity than R22.It does run at a lower discharge temp and has a lower power consumption than R22.Kind of like the overclockers dream. :D

[bowman1964]

yes -82 was very hard to do but if you flood the evaperator for 20 minutes or so and then lower the charge all of a sudden the compressor will go into a hard vacuum and wala you get super low temp.but just playing of couse.it cant handle any heat load because there is not enough refridgerant to keep up a constant flow.and i was using r22.

if you want the best load temp the best thing to do is charge with a 80 watt constant load so you can fine tune the pressure.or somehow run prime and hot cpu ..somthing to keep max heat output and then play with the charge.
i like playing around sometimes.just to see how cold is cold.
i should put some r502 in that comporessor and see if it will go below -100f ,i bet i can get close.lol....no load of couse just haven fun

[packrat]

Bowman there is a guy that did and still does it . His name is Jasmine i think. He uses cascade system and R408B Freon which is used in deep freezers -150 . Its pressures are very high at normal temperatures (70 F). The diference between 22 and 502 is about 10f. I personally do not like R22 because of its mediocre miscability with oil at lower temperatures, I think R290 is by far better and I never worked with it. Just from reading and web surfing. Same pt chart as R22.

[aenigma]

Well just because it has a similar glide chart doesn't mean it is better.R22 has a much better heat capacity than R290.
R22 is a much better refrigerant if you are able to get it.But for most people R290 is the best choice, as it is cheap and easy to get.It also performs very well...

<edit>
About the cascade system, there are many freezers below -150c.But show me one that cools a cpu at that temp. ;)
I have also thought about making a cascade system that uses a high powered 220v a/c compressor for high stage cooling.Low stage would use a 1.5hp semi-hermetic copeland.I would use R290 and R50.

I have built a couple cascade systems that used just R290 and smaller compressors.

[Dissolved]

whats a good compressor size to use with r22?

[aenigma]

Well, use whatever you can get.The bigger, the better of course.But I doubt your going to go buy a 40HP scroll compressor, so 1/4hp is a very good size.

[packrat]

Dissolved you shouldn't go out and buy any. People replace their refrigerators and toss them out all the time. You can go to salvage materials yard and get yourself one. I have accumulated at least 6 compressors from the curbside. Yes they all work. You will be spending money on rest of the system.However they are R12 and they are NEVER R22. New ones use 134. There are no small size compressors that use R22 for freezing application. Here is a website to a supply house http://www.johnstonesupply.com/main/selectstate.asp I hope you will notice different compressor application low, midium and high back pressure. Low for freezers, medium for refrigerators and high for ac. Always choose low if you plan to purchase it. If you use 80watts as a guide that transforms to about 250Btus

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by packrat
Dissolved you shouldn't go out and buy any. People replace their refrigerators and toss them out all the time. You can go to salvage materials yard and get yourself one. I have accumulated at least 6 compressors from the curbside. Yes they all work. You will be spending money on rest of the system.However they are R12 and they are NEVER R22. New ones use 134. There are no small size compressors that use R22 for freezing application. Here is a website to a supply house http://www.johnstonesupply.com/main/selectstate.asp I hope you will notice different compressor application low, midium and high back pressure. Low for freezers, medium for refrigerators and high for ac. Always choose low if you plan to purchase it. If you use 80watts as a guide that transforms to about 250Btus


well no offence but i want a new one, not whatever i can find in the trash.

i can get the r22 free, i have all the tools needed for refrigerent use (recovery, valuves, pressur gagues etc etc)

i just no no clue on what to buy and the best way to build it. i keep asking and i get an answer that im not looking for.

id probly get a 1/2hp compressor or better only if its worth it for cooling. i may buy so so i can cool my gpu as well.

[packrat]

no offence taken. 1\2 hp is very adequate.They also sell complete condenser and compressor set up. You will then need metering device (TXV or cap tube) and evaporator for the chips. If you are planning to use R22 for low temp. I cannot advise you on that cause I dont know. They do have 404 systems for low temp. But whatever you decide I will do my best to help if I can.

[Dissolved]

well i can get 414b and r22 free. so id have to buy the compressor and all the basic hardware.

i dunno exactly what to buy. so could you gimme some examples so i can start planning it out?

[aenigma]

R22 is a great refrigerant, much better than R12.But then so is R290...

Going with a shiny new bling bling compressor is still a waste of money.Old ones have proven their reliability and performance.

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by aenigma
R22 is a great refrigerant, much better than R12.But then so is R290...

Going with a shiny new bling bling compressor is still a waste of money.Old ones have proven their reliability and performance.

Well money isnt an issue. So theres no piont in getting a used one if i can buy one. i dont see why u guys keep saying i have to get a used one. you give No other advice to me other then getting a used compressor? thats alot of help.

[aenigma]

If you got a used compressor you could spend that money on something else, but go for it.It is up to you.

By the way you should do some reading.No offence, but your questions consist of "what is the best capillary" "what is the best condenser" "what is the best compressor" etc. ;)
We all start somewhere, but it is kind of common sense figuring compressor size and finding a good condenser. :toast:

Ok we have already answered your compressor question.As far as the condenser goes, since money doesn't matter, go ahead and buy one from rparts.Capillary, get either .031 or .028, I use .028.Use about 6 feet of .028.
We also answered your refrigerant questions.


http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm
Not sure if you have read that.I have posted one like it before, but this one has more pages.Very nice read...

Good luck.